[meteorite-list] IMMBM: MYSTERY OBJECT

[Meteoriteshow]

Dear List Members,

We have received some replies about the Mystery Object Contest and had a
winner 2 days ago. Congratulations to Jeff Pringle, who will receive soon a
slice of one of our Saharan finds. Jeff has been very fast and accurate!
We thank all of you, who took part to the contest and send you our best
meteoritical wishes!

Kind regards,

Michel & Fred

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Re: [meteorite-list] Making Sense of Droplets Inside Droplets(Chondrules & CAIs)

[Darren Garrison]

On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:40:28 -0700, "Rob Wesel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Someone on the list had also mentioned the possibility that a CAI could be 
>conical allowing chondritic material to fill the cone. The cone, when sliced 
>would look like chondritic material completely encapsulated within a CAI. 
>Context is everything.
>

Yes, that conversation came up late last year/early this year over a meteorite 
of the Hupe's.  But
this article is, IIRC, a different issue-- it isn't about a pocket of 
chondritic material surrounded
by a CAI-- it is about condrules dispersed throughout the CAI itself.
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Re: [meteorite-list] Making Sense of Droplets InsideDroplets(Chondrules & CAIs)

[Jeff Kuyken]

Excellent point Rob!

http://www.meteorites.com.au/features/nwa2086.html

Cheers,

Jeff Kuyken
I.M.C.A. #3085
www.meteorites.com.au


- Original Message -
From: Rob Wesel
To: Ron Baalke ; Meteorite Mailing List
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Making Sense of Droplets
InsideDroplets(Chondrules & CAIs)


Someone on the list had also mentioned the possibility that a CAI could be
conical allowing chondritic material to fill the cone. The cone, when sliced
would look like chondritic material completely encapsulated within a CAI.
Context is everything.

Rob Wesel
http://www.nakhladogmeteorites.com
--
We are the music makers...
and we are the dreamers of the dreams.
Willy Wonka, 1971



- Original Message -
From: "Ron Baalke" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "Meteorite Mailing List" 
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 10:27 AM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Making Sense of Droplets Inside
Droplets(Chondrules & CAIs)


>
>
> http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/May05/chondrulesCAIs.html
>
> Making Sense of Droplets Inside Droplets
> Planetary Science Research Discoveries
> May 31, 2005
>
> --- The vexing presence of chondrules inside supposedly older
> calcium-aluminum-rich inclusions (CAIs) in chondrites makes sense if the
> CAIs were remelted.
>
> Written by G. Jeffrey Taylor
> Hawai'i Institute of Geophysics and Planetology
>
> Chondrules and calcium-aluminum-rich inclusions (CAIs) in stony
> meteorites called chondrites are
> silicate objects only fractions of a millimeter to several millimeters
> in diameter. Both formed during rapid heating events at the dawn of the
> solar system, before there were planets. Conventional wisdom, based on
> numerous observations and isotopic
> analyses, indicates that CAIs formed before chondrules. CAIs contained
> more radioactive aluminum-26 (26Al, which has a half-life of only
> 730,000 years) when they formed than did chondrules, indicating that
> they formed 1-3 million years earlier. Relict pieces of CAIs have even
> been found inside chondrules, and so must have formed earlier. However,
> Shoichi Itoh and Hisayoshi Yurimoto of the Tokyo Institute of Technology
> found a chondrule inside a CAI, the reverse of the normal situation,
> which indicated that some chondrules must have formed before CAIs, a
> blow to the conventional wisdom.
>
> Alexander (Sasha) Krot (University of Hawaii), Professor Yurimoto from
> Tokyo, Ian Hutcheon (Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory), and Glenn
> MacPherson (Smithsonian Institution) report two additional cases of
> chondrules inside CAIs. They show that in both cases the CAIs contained
> less 26Al when they crystallized than did most CAIs. The CAIs are also
> depleted in oxygen-16 (16O), a characteristic associated with
> chondrules. Durable minerals located in the central parts of the two
> CAIs have 16O-rich compositions. Krot and his co-workers conclude that
> the two chondrule-bearing CAIs had chondrule material added to them
> during a reheating event about 2 million years after they had originally
> formed. The conventional wisdom that CAIs are older than chondrules
> remains intact, at least for now, but this work shows that CAIs, like
> most solar system materials, can be reworked after they form.
>
> Reference:
>
>* Krot, A. N., H. Yurimoto, I. D. Hutcheon, and G. J. MacPherson
>  (2005) Chronology of the early Solar System from chondrule-bearing
>  calcium-aluminum-rich inclusions. Nature, vol. 434, p. 998-1001.
>
> 
>
> Chondrules and CAIs: Hot Stuff in the Early Solar System
>
> Chondritic meteorites are composed of materials that formed before
> planets roamed the solar system. The oldest of these materials are
> calcium-aluminum-rich inclusions (CAIs), light-colored objects rich in
> refractory elements (that condense at
> a high temperature). Besides calcium and aluminum, this includes
> magnesium, titanium, and rare earth elements. CAIs range in size from
> about a millimeter to a centimeter. Meteoriticists have identified
> several distinct varieties of CAIs, but all share a high temperature
> origin. Some might be condensates from the solar nebular; for example,
> see the PSRD article: First Rock in the Solar System
> . Other CAIs might be
> evaporation residues.
>
> Allende meteorite
> Slab of the Allende CV carbonaceous chondrite. Large light-colored
> objects are CAIs. Smaller, round, dark objects are chondrules.
>
> 
> Efremovka meteorite
> A calcium-aluminum-rich inclusion (CAI) in the carbonacious chondrite
> Efremovka with anorthite (an), melilite (mel), and pyroxene (px).
>
> Chondrules are millimeter-sized frozen droplets of molten silicate. They
> are less refractory than CAIs, but are still relatively high-temperature
> products of solar system formation. Like CAIs, 

Re: [meteorite-list] Making Sense of Droplets Inside Droplets(Chondrules & CAIs)

[Rob Wesel]

Someone on the list had also mentioned the possibility that a CAI could be 
conical allowing chondritic material to fill the cone. The cone, when sliced 
would look like chondritic material completely encapsulated within a CAI. 
Context is everything.


Rob Wesel
http://www.nakhladogmeteorites.com
--
We are the music makers...
and we are the dreamers of the dreams.
Willy Wonka, 1971



- Original Message - 
From: "Ron Baalke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Meteorite Mailing List" 
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 10:27 AM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Making Sense of Droplets Inside 
Droplets(Chondrules & CAIs)






http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/May05/chondrulesCAIs.html

Making Sense of Droplets Inside Droplets
Planetary Science Research Discoveries
May 31, 2005

--- The vexing presence of chondrules inside supposedly older
calcium-aluminum-rich inclusions (CAIs) in chondrites makes sense if the
CAIs were remelted.

Written by G. Jeffrey Taylor
Hawai'i Institute of Geophysics and Planetology

Chondrules and calcium-aluminum-rich inclusions (CAIs) in stony
meteorites called chondrites are
silicate objects only fractions of a millimeter to several millimeters
in diameter. Both formed during rapid heating events at the dawn of the
solar system, before there were planets. Conventional wisdom, based on
numerous observations and isotopic
analyses, indicates that CAIs formed before chondrules. CAIs contained
more radioactive aluminum-26 (26Al, which has a half-life of only
730,000 years) when they formed than did chondrules, indicating that
they formed 1-3 million years earlier. Relict pieces of CAIs have even
been found inside chondrules, and so must have formed earlier. However,
Shoichi Itoh and Hisayoshi Yurimoto of the Tokyo Institute of Technology
found a chondrule inside a CAI, the reverse of the normal situation,
which indicated that some chondrules must have formed before CAIs, a
blow to the conventional wisdom.

Alexander (Sasha) Krot (University of Hawaii), Professor Yurimoto from
Tokyo, Ian Hutcheon (Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory), and Glenn
MacPherson (Smithsonian Institution) report two additional cases of
chondrules inside CAIs. They show that in both cases the CAIs contained
less 26Al when they crystallized than did most CAIs. The CAIs are also
depleted in oxygen-16 (16O), a characteristic associated with
chondrules. Durable minerals located in the central parts of the two
CAIs have 16O-rich compositions. Krot and his co-workers conclude that
the two chondrule-bearing CAIs had chondrule material added to them
during a reheating event about 2 million years after they had originally
formed. The conventional wisdom that CAIs are older than chondrules
remains intact, at least for now, but this work shows that CAIs, like
most solar system materials, can be reworked after they form.

Reference:

   * Krot, A. N., H. Yurimoto, I. D. Hutcheon, and G. J. MacPherson
 (2005) Chronology of the early Solar System from chondrule-bearing
 calcium-aluminum-rich inclusions. Nature, vol. 434, p. 998-1001.



Chondrules and CAIs: Hot Stuff in the Early Solar System

Chondritic meteorites are composed of materials that formed before
planets roamed the solar system. The oldest of these materials are
calcium-aluminum-rich inclusions (CAIs), light-colored objects rich in
refractory elements (that condense at
a high temperature). Besides calcium and aluminum, this includes
magnesium, titanium, and rare earth elements. CAIs range in size from
about a millimeter to a centimeter. Meteoriticists have identified
several distinct varieties of CAIs, but all share a high temperature
origin. Some might be condensates from the solar nebular; for example,
see the PSRD article: First Rock in the Solar System
. Other CAIs might be
evaporation residues.

Allende meteorite
Slab of the Allende CV carbonaceous chondrite. Large light-colored
objects are CAIs. Smaller, round, dark objects are chondrules.


Efremovka meteorite
A calcium-aluminum-rich inclusion (CAI) in the carbonacious chondrite
Efremovka with anorthite (an), melilite (mel), and pyroxene (px).

Chondrules are millimeter-sized frozen droplets of molten silicate. They
are less refractory than CAIs, but are still relatively high-temperature
products of solar system formation. Like CAIs, they come in a wide
variety of types, but all share a history of having been melted
(requires a temperature of more than 1400oC) and cooled rapidly (5 to
1000oC/hour).

PCA91082 meteorite
The chondritic meteorite PCA 91082 contains both chondrules and CAIs.
This X-ray map shows the elemental abundances in the meteorite: red is
magnesium, green is calcium and blue is aluminum.



Oxygen Isotope Fingerprint

Re: [meteorite-list] Comet Put on List of Potential Earth Impactors

[Sterling K. Webb]

Hi,

Of course, I'll be long dead and my children will be (probably) be dead,
by 2085, and everybody I know and everybody you know, but it's time to take
life seriously, boys and girls, time to go put transponders on the 10 most
likely objects so we can track them all the time, time to spend some (more)
actual cash money on the search programs, dear Congressional idiots, time to
grow up as a species, stop scratching your rump and picking fleas off the
other monkeys and pay attention to the funny lights in the sky and the scary
ones, especially.
The dinosaurs didn't and look what it got them.

Sterling K. Webb
-
Ron Baalke wrote:

> http://www.newscientistspace.com/article/dn7449.html
>
> Comet put on list of potential Earth impactors
> David L Chandler
> New Scientist
> June 1, 2005
>
> A comet has been added to the list of potentially threatening near-Earth
> objects maintained by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. Comet Catalina
> 2005 JQ5 is the largest - and therefore most potentially devastating -
> of the 70 objects now being tracked. However, the chances of a collision
> are very low.
>
> The listing of Comet Catalina underscores the uncertainty in the
> knowledge of whether comets or asteroids pose a greater threat to Earth.
> Previous estimates of the proportion of the impact risk posed by comets
> have varied widely, from 1% to 50%, with most recent estimates at the
> lower end.
>
> But comets are larger and faster-moving, on average, so their impacts
> could be a significant part of the overall risk to human life. And,
> unlike asteroids, they lie on randomly-oriented and usually highly
> elongated orbits. This makes them much more likely to remain
> undiscovered until they are very close to Earth.
>
> Comet Catalina was found by the Catalina Sky Survey, one of the six
> current, large-scale and automated search programmes for near-Earth
> asteroids. It was initially designated as an asteroid when first spotted
> on May 6. But was reclassified as a comet when observers saw
> characteristic fuzziness in the image, indicating ice and dust streaming
> off.
>
> Its size is estimated at 980 metres, but Steve Chesley of JPL told New
> Scientist that the size determination is based on the assumption it is a
> dark-bodied asteroid, and so the bright coma of a comet would cause the
> estimate to be high. "It's really an upper limit," he said.
>
> Collision course?
>
> On 26 May, JPL's unique orbital calculation software determined that
> Comet Catalina was on what could possibly be a collision course with
> Earth, though the odds of such an impact were small: just 1 chance in
> 300,000 of a strike on June 11, 2085. Based on the 980-metre size
> estimate, that would produce a 6-gigaton impact - equivalent to
> 6 billion tonnes of TNT.
>
> Astronomers expected the addition of further observations to the
> calculations to rule out any possibility of a collision, as happens with
> most newly-seen objects.
>
> But that did not quite happen. The comet's predicted pathway actually
> drew even closer to making a perfect bull's-eye with the Earth - its
> predicted path passes within 1000 kilometres of the where the centre of
> our 12,700-km-diameter planet will be around that time.
>
> However, uncertainty in the exact timing of the comet's pass through the
> line of Earth's orbit dropped the odds of an impact to about 1 in 120
> million. That is very low, but the observations so far cannot
> categorically rule a collision out.
>
> Forceful outgassing
>
> Chesley adds that even the slim 1 in 120 million odds are an
> overestimate, because comets, unlike asteroids, can move in
> unpredictable ways because of the forceful outgassing that creates their
> dusty comas and tails. "The uncertainty is much larger than we're
> modelling," he said. "But I haven't come up with a good way of dealing
> with this."
>
> The only other comet placed on the JPL list of near-Earth objects with
> possible collision paths was added in 2003. But additional observations
> ruled out a possible impact - that comet was removed from the list after
> less than a week.
>
> Just one other comet, Swift-Tuttle, has been recorded with a non-zero
> possibility of impact. It was rediscovered in 1992 - after more than a
> century's absence - before the JPL list was created.
>
> Additional observations during Swift-Tuttle's passage, thanks to the
> publicity surrounding the possible impact, made it possible to rule out
> the possibility of an Earth impact anytime in this millennium. However,
> Swift-Tuttle is on an orbit that will almost certainly cause it to crash
> into the Earth or the moon eventually.


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Re: [meteorite-list]What flew up Neil Armstrong's butt?

[Dave Freeman mjwy]

Dear All,
You know that even hair has DNA in it and in 40 years, we may be cloning 
babies from the DNA in human hair.In a way, I think it is very 
normal not to be letting the barber, or anyone "swipe" your DNA.   The 
hair, finger nails, and other bodily tissue could be used as an 
incriminating item in a crime seen as well.

Not by the hairy-hair-hair of my chinny chin-chin.
Yes, when Michael  when you become famousinteresting concept, who 
said that?

Dave F.

Gerald Flaherty wrote:

Just wait Mike till you become famous. Then you'll 
understand!! Jerry

- Original Message - From: "Michael L Blood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Meteorite List" 


Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list]What flew up Neil Armstrong's butt?



on 6/1/05 12:29 PM, Darren Garrison at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


What flew up Neil Armstrong's butt?



A wild hair?









--
"You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are."
-Herb Cohen
--
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.

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Re: [meteorite-list]What flew up Neil Armstrong's butt?

[Gerald Flaherty]

Just wait Mike till you become famous. Then you'll understand!! 
Jerry
- Original Message - 
From: "Michael L Blood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Meteorite List" 


Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list]What flew up Neil Armstrong's butt?



on 6/1/05 12:29 PM, Darren Garrison at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


What flew up Neil Armstrong's butt?


A wild hair?









--
"You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are."
-Herb Cohen
--
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.

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Re: [meteorite-list] BIMS URL

[Dave Freeman mjwy]

Maybe the issue is the herd is a  herd of sheep;-)
DF

JKGwilliam wrote:


Steve,
I did a Google search and it took me all of 30 seconds to find the 
website for the BIMS Society.  Try doing some of your own research, it 
can't be that herd.


JKGwilliam

At 04:48 PM 6/1/2005, Steve Arnold, Chicago!!! wrote:


Will someone please inform me of the url for the BIM society please?I am
having a herd time getting to it.

   steve arnold, usa

Steve R.Arnold, Chicago, IL, 60120


Illinois Meteorites,Ltd!


website url http://stormbringer60120.tripod.com


















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Re: [meteorite-list] BIMS URL

[JKGwilliam]

Steve,
I did a Google search and it took me all of 30 seconds to find the website 
for the BIMS Society.  Try doing some of your own research, it can't be 
that herd.


JKGwilliam

At 04:48 PM 6/1/2005, Steve Arnold, Chicago!!! wrote:

Will someone please inform me of the url for the BIM society please?I am
having a herd time getting to it.

   steve arnold, usa

Steve R.Arnold, Chicago, IL, 60120


Illinois Meteorites,Ltd!


website url http://stormbringer60120.tripod.com


















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[meteorite-list] AD-1153g Canyon Diablo w/hole

[Bob Holmes]

Hello All-
I have a real nice Canyon Diablo for sale that can be seen at 
http://www.meteoritebiz.com/CanyonDiablo1153.htm. Asking price is right 
around $1/gram! If you have any interest, please contact me off list.

Thanks,
Bob 



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[meteorite-list] BIMS URL

[Steve Arnold, Chicago!!!]

Will someone please inform me of the url for the BIM society please?I am
having a herd time getting to it.

   steve arnold, usa

Steve R.Arnold, Chicago, IL, 60120 
 

Illinois Meteorites,Ltd!


website url http://stormbringer60120.tripod.com
 
 
 
 
 
 












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Re: [meteorite-list]What flew up Neil Armstrong's butt?

[Michael L Blood]

on 6/1/05 12:29 PM, Darren Garrison at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>What flew up Neil Armstrong's butt?

A wild hair?








 
--
"You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are."
 -Herb Cohen
--
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.

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[meteorite-list] AD: Video Footage of our trip to Oman

[MeteorHntr]

Hello List;

As many of you know, my wife Qynne and I returned a few weeks ago from "The 
Arnold's Awesome Arabian Adventure '05." This was our meteorite hunting 
expedition into Oman.  

We found a few meteorites, and had a blast.  We brought along a video recorder 
and we captured not only the recovery of most of the specimens, but we got a 
lot of other great footage too.  Initially, I was only going to give away a 
video with each specimen that was bought from the trip, with footage of the 
specific specimen when discovered included.  But I am so excited about how this 
has come out, I have decided to offer it for sale directly without any 
meteorite purchase required.

I think the 53 minute DVD is worth $20, and if it is popular enough, I will 
probably have it professionally edited and made for sale at that price.  In the 
mean time, if you want a slightly rougher "Limited First Edition" I will be 
selling them for $10 + $2.50 shipping.

Of course if you want to buy a specimen that we found, please email me directly 
off list.

I really think this will be a video you will like to watch repeatedly, and some 
might even invite non-meteorite friends over to watch it too.  Maybe this DVD 
can help you explain why this is such a fascinating hobby to those who just 
don't "get it" yet.

Below is the description on the back side of the DVD cover.

Thanks,
Steve Arnold
IMB
Arkansas
the First
the Great, 
the Normal One (well, after watching the video, you might not consider me so 
"normal")
*

The Arnold's Awesome Arabian Adventure '05"

In April, 2005 the husband and wife team of Steve and Qynne Arnold headed to 
Arabia on an adventure to find meteorites, in one of the most remote parts of 
the world - Oman's Dhofar Desert.  Sit back and enjoy "The Arnold's Awesome 
Arabian Adventure '05."

Join Qynne and Steve in their camel-in-the-highway-dodging, scorpion-attacking, 
tire-shredding, meteorite (and meteor-wrong) hunting adventure (and that was 
just the first 24 hours).  See amazing wildlife, in one of the most desolate 
places on Earth, while they searched for rare meteorites laying on the ground.  
Visit the world famous archeology site first discovered in 1991 by NASA space 
shuttles of the ancient frankincense trails and the lost "great walled city" of 
Ubar, that according to legends and documented in the Koran, was "swallowed up 
by the sands" some 1,500 years ago.

Share the humorous times, some of the frustrating times, and the awe inspiring 
places and events of this once in a lifetime trip.  Learn how to tell the 
difference between camel poop and a genuine meteorite.  See the recovery of a 
tiny unique ultra fresh 2.4g individual as well as the 4.3kg "Big Kahuna" that 
only had a couple of grams sticking up above ground!

Due to new laws in Oman, meteorite hunting there may indeed be a thing of the 
past.  But even if you will never be able to go yourself, you can save spending 
thousands of dollars, traveling hundreds of kilometers, taking dozens of days 
and recording hours of raw video - instead, Qynne and Steve have already done 
it for you.  It is all edited into an hour of footage, put on this one DVD for 
you to enjoy.

Most meteorites that were recovered on this trip had their recovery documented 
on video, while only a few of them made it onto this edited version.  If you 
buy one of the specimens recovered from this trip, a unique edition of this 
video can be produced for you (added to the footage contained in this video) 
that will feature the specimen you buy.

Steve Arnold has been a meteorite dealer for nearly 15 years.  His career has 
led him to recover dozens of meteorites from all over the globe.  International 
travels both in the pursuit to find meteorites and in trading specimens with 
many of the world's greatest scientific institutions have allowed him to travel 
to places including Mexico, Canada, Chile, Peru, Argentina, England, France, 
from coast to coast in the U.S. and now in U.A.E. & Oman.  Steve buys, sells, 
trades, brokers and find meteorites.

If you would like more copies of this video, or to purchase one of the 
meteorites found on this trip, or to learn how YOU could join Steve on one of 
his next meteorite hunting adventures, you can email Steve at: MeteorHntr@ 
aol.com 
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Re: [meteorite-list] Mars Global Surveyor Images: May 26 - June 1, 2005

[Gerald Flaherty]

Wow! that South polar view is awesome!
- Original Message - 
From: "Ron Baalke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Meteorite Mailing List" 
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 5:02 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Mars Global Surveyor Images: May 26 - June 1, 2005




MARS GLOBAL SURVEYOR IMAGES
May 26 - June 1, 2005

The following new images taken by the Mars Orbiter Camera (MOC) on
the Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft are now available:

o Aram Chaos Complexity (Released 26 May 2005)
 http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/05/26

o Young Impact (Released 27 May 2005)
 http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/05/27

o Slope-Streaked Knob (Released 28 May 2005)
 http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/05/28

o Defrosting Features (Released 29 May 2005)
 http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/05/29

o East Candor Outcrops (Released 30 May 2005)
 http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/05/30

o Mars at Ls 211 Degrees (Released 31 May 2005)
 http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/05/31

o Channel Near Olympus (Released 01 June 2006)
 http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/06/01


All of the Mars Global Surveyor images are archived here:

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/index.html

Mars Global Surveyor was launched in November 1996 and has been
in Mars orbit since September 1997.   It began its primary
mapping mission on March 8, 1999.  Mars Global Surveyor is the
first mission in a long-term program of Mars exploration known as
the Mars Surveyor Program that is managed by JPL for NASA's Office
of Space Science, Washington, DC.  Malin Space Science Systems (MSSS)
and the California Institute of Technology built the MOC
using spare hardware from the Mars Observer mission. MSSS operates
the camera from its facilities in San Diego, CA. The Jet Propulsion
Laboratory's Mars Surveyor Operations Project operates the Mars Global
Surveyor spacecraft with its industrial partner, Lockheed Martin
Astronautics, from facilities in Pasadena, CA and Denver, CO.

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Re: [meteorite-list] Water in Meteorites

[Gerald Flaherty]

Cool!
- Original Message - 
From: "Adam Hupe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Water in Meteorites



Dear List,

Scientists reported fluid trains in the olivine of NWA 969 which I had a
chance to see under a very high powered microscope.  They looked like
bubbles that you would see tailing a scuba diver underwater arranged in
groups or fluid trains as reported to the NomCom during classification.  I
do not know if these contain water or some liquefied gas under high 
pressure
hence the question mark in our auctions.  What is needed is a freezing 
stage

on a microscope to see what temperature they solidify.  I was told, it is
not that uncommon to find these fluid trains in terrestrial olivine that
contain water, you just need to know what to look for.

Kind Regards,


Adam Hupe
The Hupe Collection
Team LunarRock
IMCA 2185
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


- Original Message - 
From: "Marc Fries" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Water in Meteorites



Howdy

   I scored a piece of that meteorite and had it made into three thin
sections.  I've looked at a couple of dozen likely inclusions with our
snazzy new Raman imaging device and didn't find an iota of water.  I
don't think there's any to be found.  It is known that glassy
inclusions in meteorites contain a high vacuum, and it seems far more
likely to me that someone came across a cracked inclusion full of
cutting fluid than a recrystallized asteroidal sample that contains
water.

Cheers,
MDF

> "There are only two meteorites known to contain liquid water:
>
> - Monahans
> - Zag
>
> What about the Hupe's NWA969 LL7 Meteorite Containing Bottled Water?
>
> Thanks, Tom
> peregrineflier <><
>
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 1:35 PM
> Subject: [meteorite-list] Water in Meteorites
>
>
>> Tom inquired:
>>
>> > It sure makes me wonder how they could keep space water
>> > in them if they were not picked up immediately after the fall?
>>
>> Because they do not contain *l i q u i d*  water. The water found
>> in carbonaceous chondrites and Martian meteorites can only be
>> extracted by heating the meteorite samples.
>>
>> There are only two meteorites known to contain liquid water:
>>
>> - Monahans
>> - Zag
>>
>> where the water was found in salt crystals inside these meteorites.
>>
>> see also Chris L Peterson's post to the List!
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Bernd
>>
>> __
>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.3.2 - Release Date: 5/31/2005
>>
>>
>
> __
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>


--
Marc Fries
Postdoctoral Research Associate
Carnegie Institution of Washington
Geophysical Laboratory
5251 Broad Branch Rd. NW
Washington, DC 20015
PH:  202 478 7970
FAX: 202 478 8901
-
I urge you to show your support to American servicemen and servicewomen
currently serving in harm's way by donating items they personally request
at:
http://www.anysoldier.com
(This is not an endorsement by the Geophysical Laboratory or the Carnegie
Institution.)
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[meteorite-list] Mars Global Surveyor Images: May 26 - June 1, 2005

[Ron Baalke]

MARS GLOBAL SURVEYOR IMAGES
May 26 - June 1, 2005

The following new images taken by the Mars Orbiter Camera (MOC) on
the Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft are now available:

o Aram Chaos Complexity (Released 26 May 2005)
  http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/05/26

o Young Impact (Released 27 May 2005)
  http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/05/27

o Slope-Streaked Knob (Released 28 May 2005)
  http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/05/28

o Defrosting Features (Released 29 May 2005)
  http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/05/29

o East Candor Outcrops (Released 30 May 2005)
  http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/05/30

o Mars at Ls 211 Degrees (Released 31 May 2005)
  http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/05/31

o Channel Near Olympus (Released 01 June 2006)
  http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/06/01


All of the Mars Global Surveyor images are archived here:

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/index.html

Mars Global Surveyor was launched in November 1996 and has been
in Mars orbit since September 1997.   It began its primary
mapping mission on March 8, 1999.  Mars Global Surveyor is the 
first mission in a long-term program of Mars exploration known as 
the Mars Surveyor Program that is managed by JPL for NASA's Office
of Space Science, Washington, DC.  Malin Space Science Systems (MSSS)
and the California Institute of Technology built the MOC
using spare hardware from the Mars Observer mission. MSSS operates
the camera from its facilities in San Diego, CA. The Jet Propulsion
Laboratory's Mars Surveyor Operations Project operates the Mars Global
Surveyor spacecraft with its industrial partner, Lockheed Martin
Astronautics, from facilities in Pasadena, CA and Denver, CO.

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Re: [meteorite-list] Water in Meteorites

[Adam Hupe]

Dear List,

Scientists reported fluid trains in the olivine of NWA 969 which I had a
chance to see under a very high powered microscope.  They looked like
bubbles that you would see tailing a scuba diver underwater arranged in
groups or fluid trains as reported to the NomCom during classification.  I
do not know if these contain water or some liquefied gas under high pressure
hence the question mark in our auctions.  What is needed is a freezing stage
on a microscope to see what temperature they solidify.  I was told, it is
not that uncommon to find these fluid trains in terrestrial olivine that
contain water, you just need to know what to look for.

Kind Regards,


Adam Hupe
The Hupe Collection
Team LunarRock
IMCA 2185
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


- Original Message - 
From: "Marc Fries" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Water in Meteorites


> Howdy
>
>I scored a piece of that meteorite and had it made into three thin
> sections.  I've looked at a couple of dozen likely inclusions with our
> snazzy new Raman imaging device and didn't find an iota of water.  I
> don't think there's any to be found.  It is known that glassy
> inclusions in meteorites contain a high vacuum, and it seems far more
> likely to me that someone came across a cracked inclusion full of
> cutting fluid than a recrystallized asteroidal sample that contains
> water.
>
> Cheers,
> MDF
>
> > "There are only two meteorites known to contain liquid water:
> >
> > - Monahans
> > - Zag
> >
> > What about the Hupe's NWA969 LL7 Meteorite Containing Bottled Water?
> >
> > Thanks, Tom
> > peregrineflier <><
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 1:35 PM
> > Subject: [meteorite-list] Water in Meteorites
> >
> >
> >> Tom inquired:
> >>
> >> > It sure makes me wonder how they could keep space water
> >> > in them if they were not picked up immediately after the fall?
> >>
> >> Because they do not contain *l i q u i d*  water. The water found
> >> in carbonaceous chondrites and Martian meteorites can only be
> >> extracted by heating the meteorite samples.
> >>
> >> There are only two meteorites known to contain liquid water:
> >>
> >> - Monahans
> >> - Zag
> >>
> >> where the water was found in salt crystals inside these meteorites.
> >>
> >> see also Chris L Peterson's post to the List!
> >>
> >> Best wishes,
> >>
> >> Bernd
> >>
> >> __
> >> Meteorite-list mailing list
> >> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> >> Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.3.2 - Release Date: 5/31/2005
> >>
> >>
> >
> > __
> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> >
>
>
> -- 
> Marc Fries
> Postdoctoral Research Associate
> Carnegie Institution of Washington
> Geophysical Laboratory
> 5251 Broad Branch Rd. NW
> Washington, DC 20015
> PH:  202 478 7970
> FAX: 202 478 8901
> -
> I urge you to show your support to American servicemen and servicewomen
> currently serving in harm's way by donating items they personally request
> at:
> http://www.anysoldier.com
> (This is not an endorsement by the Geophysical Laboratory or the Carnegie
> Institution.)
> __
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list


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[meteorite-list] First Shooting Star Seen from Mars

[Ron Baalke]

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/050601_mars_meteor.html

First Shooting Star Seen from Mars
By Robert Roy Britt 
space.com
01 June 2005

NASA's Spirit rover photographed a streak of light that was likely part
of a martian meteor shower, scientists announced today.

The picture is the first of a shooting star above Mars. Further, the
flash has been traced back to its parent comet. And now astronomers
figure they should be able to forecast martian meteor showers.

Meteor showers on Earth are typically caused by streams of debris that
boils off comets when they pass through the inner solar system on their
orbits around the Sun. The bits, from the size of sand grains to peas,
vaporize as they plunge through the atmosphere.

Skywatchers on Earth are sometimes dazzled by the annual displays of the
winter Leonid meteor shower and the summer Perseids, among others.

Similar meteor showers ought to occur on Mars, even though the red
planet has a very thin atmosphere compared to Earth.

As predicted ...

On March 7, 2004, Spirit's panoramic camera photographed a bright streak
in the sky. Scientists released the image a few
days later, but at the time they were not sure if it was a meteor or the
Viking Orbiter 2, still circling Mars after its 1970s mission.

Now the scientists have analyzed the path of the object and considered
meteor showers that were predicted to have occurred on Mars around that
time.

The meteor was likely once a tiny chunk of a comet called Wiseman-Skiff,
according to a team led by Franck Selsis of Centre de Recherche
Astronomique de Lyon in France.

The analysis is presented in the June 2 issue of the journal Nature.

The result is somewhat speculative, but no other known comet debris
stream (or spacecraft) fits the data.

Because of perspective, all meteors from a comet seem to emerge from a
single point in the sky, called the radiant, Selsis explained. "On Earth
for instance, Leonids emerge from the constellation Leo and the Perseids
from Perseus."

So the researchers checked to see if the streak was aligned with the
theoretical radiant of comet Wiseman-Skiff.

"We found a very good agreement," Selsis told SPACE.com.

The view from Mars

The shooting star was low in the sky and ran across the horizon,
creating a relatively long spectacle. If you were on Mars and held a
fist at arm's length, resting it on the horizon, the meteor would have
soared barely above your fist. In astronomers' terms, it was 14.2
degrees off the horizon.

If you could trace the meteor back and below the horizon, it would have
appeared to emanate from the constellation Cepheus, and so the
scientists have dubbed the apparent meteor shower the Cepheids.

The streak of light was about 125 to 185 miles (200-300 kilometers) away
from the rover.

Other researchers have catalogued debris streams from various comets.
The streams are made up of many strands, each representing previous
passages of the comet. A meteor shower in any given year can vary in
intensity depending on the density of the portion of the stream a planet
passes through that year. All this knowledge allows astronomers to
roughly predict the intensity of future showers.

Upcoming event

Avid meteor watchers might want to begin planning a trip to Mars for 2007.

"Our findings indicate that martian meteor showers may now be
predictable events," Selsis said. "Detailed simulations show that we can
expect an intense Cepheid shower on Mars, on Dec. 20, 2007."

The word meteor is applied to any object that streaks through a planet's
atmosphere. If one reaches the ground, it is called a meteorite. Earlier
this year, Spirits twin rover, Opportunity, stumbled upon a
basketball-sized rock that turned out to be the first known Mars
meteorite.

Ancient asteroid impacts have also carved chunks of rock from Mars,
launching them into space. Some of these have arrived at Earth millions
of years later, becoming meteors and, in some cases, meteorites.
Scientists study these rocks from Mars for clues about the history of 
the red planet.


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Re: [meteorite-list] Water in Meteorites

[Marc Fries]

Howdy

   I scored a piece of that meteorite and had it made into three thin
sections.  I've looked at a couple of dozen likely inclusions with our
snazzy new Raman imaging device and didn't find an iota of water.  I
don't think there's any to be found.  It is known that glassy
inclusions in meteorites contain a high vacuum, and it seems far more
likely to me that someone came across a cracked inclusion full of
cutting fluid than a recrystallized asteroidal sample that contains
water.

Cheers,
MDF

> "There are only two meteorites known to contain liquid water:
>
> - Monahans
> - Zag
>
> What about the Hupe's NWA969 LL7 Meteorite Containing Bottled Water?
>
> Thanks, Tom
> peregrineflier <><
>
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 1:35 PM
> Subject: [meteorite-list] Water in Meteorites
>
>
>> Tom inquired:
>>
>> > It sure makes me wonder how they could keep space water
>> > in them if they were not picked up immediately after the fall?
>>
>> Because they do not contain *l i q u i d*  water. The water found
>> in carbonaceous chondrites and Martian meteorites can only be
>> extracted by heating the meteorite samples.
>>
>> There are only two meteorites known to contain liquid water:
>>
>> - Monahans
>> - Zag
>>
>> where the water was found in salt crystals inside these meteorites.
>>
>> see also Chris L Peterson's post to the List!
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Bernd
>>
>> __
>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.3.2 - Release Date: 5/31/2005
>>
>>
>
> __
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>


-- 
Marc Fries
Postdoctoral Research Associate
Carnegie Institution of Washington
Geophysical Laboratory
5251 Broad Branch Rd. NW
Washington, DC 20015
PH:  202 478 7970
FAX: 202 478 8901
-
I urge you to show your support to American servicemen and servicewomen
currently serving in harm's way by donating items they personally request
at:
http://www.anysoldier.com
(This is not an endorsement by the Geophysical Laboratory or the Carnegie
Institution.)
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[meteorite-list] NPA 07-26-1947 20 years ago...Wylie may secure Tilden Meteorite

[MARK BOSTICK]

Paper: Iowa City Press-Citizen
City: Iowa City, Iowa
Date: Saturday, July 26, 1947
Page: 4 (of 10)

Under "20 Years Ago Today In Iowa City"

Prof. Charles C. Wylie, of the university faculty, may secure a "chunk" 
of the meteor that recently fell near Sparta, Ill.  Having previously traced 
the course of another meteor that plunged earthward in Illinois, the S.U.I. 
savant has been invited to Sparta to study the situation.  There are three 
huge fragments, weighing from nine pounds to 20 and 49, respectively, 
available for the research work.


(end)

Clear Skies,
Mark Bostick
Wichita, Kansas
http://www.meteoritearticles.com
http://www.kansasmeteoritesociety.com
http://www.imca.cc

http://stores.ebay.com/meteoritearticles

PDF copy of this article, and most I post (and about 1/2 of those on my 
website), is available upon e-mail request.


The NPA in the subject line, stands for Newspaper Article. The old list 
server allowed us a search feature the current does not, so I guess this is 
more for quick reference and shortening the subject line now.



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RE: [meteorite-list] Congratulations to Jeff Grossman!

[Greg Redfern]

Jeff,

   My heartiest congratulations! The honor is MOST deserved for the work you
have and continue to do.

All the best,

Greg Redfern
NASA JPL Solar System Ambassador
http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/ambassador/index.html
What's Up: The Space Place
http://www.wtopnews.com/index.php?nid=421


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Baalke
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 12:33 PM
To: Meteorite Mailing List
Subject: [meteorite-list] Congratulations to Jeff Grossman!


Congratulations to Jeff Grossman, who was recently honored by having an
asteroid named after him.  The asteroid was discovered by Robert Matson.
Below is the citation.

Ron Baalke

--

(99905) Jeffgrossman = 2002 QX50

Discovered 2002 Aug. 27 by R. Matson on NEAT images taken at Palomar.
Jeffrey N. Grossman (b. 1955), a chemist at the U.S. Geological Survey
in Reston, Virginia, conducts research in meteoritics and geochemistry.
He is best known for his work on the origin of chondrules and chondrites
and for studies of metamorphic processes on minor planets in the early
solar system.
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[meteorite-list] NPA 08-05-1927 Charles Wylie Secures Tilden, Il. Meteorite

[MARK BOSTICK]

Paper: The Daily Northwestern
City: Oshkosh, Wisconsin
Date: Friday Evening, August 5, 1927
Page: 9 (of 24)

HUNTS STRANGE VISITORS FROM REMOTE ETHER

University of Iowa Astronomer Charles C. Wylie Secures 46 Pound Specimen, 
One of Three That Struck the Earth Near Sparta, Ill., on July 13


Iowa City, Ia. - (AP) - Tracing meteors through the sky and locating 
the fragments that finally reach the earth, in an effort to add to 
scientific knowledge of these mysterious travelers of the air, is one of the 
interesting duties of Charles C. Wylie, university of Iowa astronomer.  
Professor Wylie has traced scores of meteors, recovered numerous specimens 
and attained a high standing among astronomers through his success in 
analyzing these fragments.
He recently obtained a forty-six pound fragment, one of the three that 
were found after a meteor struck the earth near Sparta, Ill., July 13.  
Another meteor that appeared in southern Minnesota, crossing northern Iowa 
and disappeared southeast of Burlington, into Illinois, was also 
investigated by Professor Wylie.
Professor Wylie discusses the difficulties met by astronomers in 
running down these strange visitors in an article prepared for the 
Associated Press.
"On the evening of Jan. 2, 1927, at a few minutes after 6 o'clock," 
Professor Wylie relates, "hundreds of people in Iowa and adjoining states 
had an experience which they will never forget.  Practically none had seen 
anything like it before, and few if any will see another such sight.
"A farmer in southern Minnesota had stopped his car to clear away a 
troublesome snow drift.  Suddenly the country was lighted up brightly, and 
turning quickly he saw a ball of fire falling in the southeastern sky, 
leaving a trail which glowed for a few minutes.


LUMINOUS TRACK.

"A woman at McGregor was entering a building when the surrounding 
darkness burst into white light.  Looking up she saw a luminous track across 
the sky.
"At Marion a woman was pointing the Big Dipper to her children when a 
ball of fire flashed across the sky.
"Near Salem a farmer's wife reported that 'a great light beamed, almost 
blinding for an instant'."
Among hundreds of impressions collected by Professor Wylie, a number 
compared the light to a prolonged flash of lightning.  Several motorists 
thought the lights of another car had been turned squarely on them.  At 
Galva, Ill., a man thought the street lights had been turned on, but looking 
up saw "a brilliantly illuminated ball traveling so straight a course that 
it might have been sliding along a wire."
First using the reports of direction, Dr. Wylie found that the meteor 
must have become visible over a point about twenty-five miles north of 
Waterloo and at a height of some eighty miles, passed nearly over Cedar 
Rapids at a height of some fifty-five miles, passed near Iowa City and 
crossed the Mississippi river north of Burlington at a height of slightly 
more than twenty miles.  This description agreed with reports from other 
states, he says.
"But what happened after crossing the Mississippi cannot be stated so 
definitely," he said.  :The meteor was low enough to be well observed by the 
few reports available were somewhat indefinite or conflicting.


VELOCITY ENORMOUS

"Limited evidence indicates that this meteor burst while still some 
fifteen miles high and if any pieces reached the earth they were too small 
to attract attention.  One of the interesting things about this meteor is 
the enormous velocity, some forty miles a second, with which it entered the 
atmosphere.  This shows it could not have been a portion of a comet, or of 
any member of the solar system.  It came from nearly the direction of the 
point toward which the sun, with the earth and other members of the solar 
system, is moving."
The orbit traveled by meteors before entering the atmosphere is a 
problem which Dr. Wylie and other astronomers are working on.  Through this 
method, he says, many of the small meteors, ordinarily called shooting 
stars, are associated with comets, some of which are thought to be fragments 
strayed from the main portion of Halley's comet.
Evidence for this and other brilliant meteors indicates to observers 
that they are not members of the solar system, but visitors from 
interstellar space.  Thousands of specimens are in museums, but little or 
nothing is known about the orbit in which they traveled before striking the 
earth.


(end)

Clear Skies,
Mark Bostick
Wichita, Kansas
http://www.meteoritearticles.com
http://www.kansasmeteoritesociety.com
http://www.imca.cc

http://stores.ebay.com/meteoritearticles

PDF copy of this article, and most I post (and about 1/2 of those on my 
website), is available upon e-mail request.


The NPA in the subject line, stands for Newspaper Article. The old list 
server allowed us a search feature the current does not, so I guess this is 
more for quick reference and shortening the s

[meteorite-list] NPA 07-26-1927 Charles Wylie to Hunt Tilden, IL. Meteorite

[MARK BOSTICK]

Paper: The Davenport Democrat and Leader
City: Davenport, Iowa
Date: Tuesday Evening, July 26, 1927
Page: 16 (of 16)

To Study Sparta Meteor.

An Iowa authority on meteors, Prof. Charles Wylie of the University of 
Iowa, plans to make an extensive investigation of a meteor which fell near 
Sparta, Ill., July 13.  Professor Wylie is now in Illinois attempting to 
trace the path of the meteor and collect all the fragments possible.  The 
largest piece recovered so far weighs 15 pounds.


(end)

Clear Skies,
Mark Bostick
Wichita, Kansas
http://www.meteoritearticles.com
http://www.kansasmeteoritesociety.com
http://www.imca.cc

http://stores.ebay.com/meteoritearticles

PDF copy of this article, and most I post (and about 1/2 of those on my 
website), is available upon e-mail request.


The NPA in the subject line, stands for Newspaper Article. The old list 
server allowed us a search feature the current does not, so I guess this is 
more for quick reference and shortening the subject line now.



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Re: [meteorite-list] Water in space

[Gerald Flaherty]

Holy Cow! Even I am getting a glimmer[i repeat, glimmer] of "understanding". 
I thank you Doug! AND I thank YOU TOM for asking a question that I always 
wanted to ask but was afraid to!! Jerry
- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:30 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Water in space



Tracy L. wrote:

Exactly!  Consider the case of copper  carbonate.  In its hydrated form,
it is a pretty blue crystal; we  used to use it in our swimming hole in
low amounts to kill off algae and  weeds.  In its anhydrous form, it's
a greenish powder.  Don't  eat either one; bad.   I'm not akamai enough
to guess what  hydrates might be present in meteorites, but I'm pretty
sure this is  what is meant by water being present in meteorites,
chemically bound  into various minerals, which may be released by
heating or chemical  reaction.


A-Hola Tracy, H.  The idea that a hydrate is a great  way to stabilize
water I totally agree with you and the physics of it, so I  follow there. 
But:


I think you are confusing copper sulfate (pretty hue, light royal blue
crystals) with copper carbonate and/or copper carbonate hydroxide 
minerals.
Copper carbonate does not form a hydrated complex in a chemical  sense, 
though
copper carbonate hydroxide might be loosely called "hydrated"  instead of 
a
hydroxide, by some fast talking pool chemical salesman (or mystic  jewelry 
peddler?)
at local pool store if it is really sold there (?).   Anyway, a hydroxide 
is
a different chemical animal than a hydrated complex  containing water 
which is

bound by weaker structural or van der waals types of  attraction: that to
which I think Chris eluded and of main interest here for  water are
chemical/structural "hydrates".

That chemical hydrated  compound on your mind would likely be Copper 
Sulfate,
wouldn't it?  It  forms a pentahydrate = complex with 5 water molecules 
per
Copper/Sulfur.   The Copper carbonate might be an undesirable precipitate 
in
the swimming hole  produced from interaction of copper sulfate with lime 
or

disolved carbon dioxide  I bet, and it might be a yucky green?

Copper Sulfate (a.k.a., synthetic  chalcanthite) is a beautiful lab 
example

of a stable hydrated complex to at  least +150 C.  It is quite possible it
could appear in trace quantities in  meteorites, so you are not far off at 
all if

we deal with CuSo4*5H20 !!

However, the more common hydrated (i.e., bound water) reservoirs found  in
some meteorites I found in the literature based on your contemplation of 
not
even guessing, would be a suite of clay minerals, which can result from 
the
aqueous modification ("weathering") products of feldspars and pyroxenes, 
common
meteoritic stock.  That is the same kinds of clay that expands when you 
mix
it with water and can be formed into shapes...i.e., hydrated clay - well 
not

all  Clays hydrate, but plenty do.

Clay minerals are very complicated beasts  that still cause all kinds of
trouble even regarding nomenclature to say what is  what, since their 
structures

vary so much, simply being a woven backbone pattern  of silicates and
hydroxides and a variety of candidate cations/metals, and  ambiguous 
formulae something

like (Ca,Na,H)(Al,Mg,Fe,Zn)2(Si,Al)4O10(OH)2*n(H2O)  in the case of
smectites, which can form widely variable laminar sheets which  suck up 
water between

them better than silica gel!  Unlike copper sulfate,  slight changes in
temperature and humidity can reverberate by changing their  structures, 
formula, and
most importantly, amount of bound water - even getting  a density is hard, 
let

alone a positive compositional ID.  So that is why  you can't do too much
better than "clay minerals".  The two best tests are  a taste test and 
messy
Separation-Xray analysis.  And that would seem to be  the 
variable/flexible nature
of much of the bound water in  not-too-shocked-and-baked meteoroids for 
s/he

who wants to really do some  bonding with them...

For chondrites, here are some of those hydrated  beasts that serve as 
space

oasises (that has a nice ring to it):

Type 3:  phyllosilicates, principally smectites and micas, serpentine
associated with  ferrihydrite.
Type 2: Smectites (rare in the CM2s, abundant in the CR2s),  Abundant
serpentines (with extremely variable compositions and structures),  Mg-Fe 
sulfates,

tochilinite-serpentine intergrowths and carbonates.
Type 1:  Saponite + (Serpentine)

Taken from an impressive face-off of Zolensky  and Bischoff in Maui at:
WORKSHOP ON PARENT-BODY AND NEBULAR MODIFICATION OF  CHONDRITIC MATERIALS
(preliminary program)
June 17, 1997, Maui,  Hawai'i
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/chondrite/pdf/program.pdf

I  chose the Zolensky writeup not because I don't believe the other 
competing

theories (I am a Bischoff fan), but rather because of the enumeration of
minerals he did including some clay and other hydrate-ables.  The 
documentation

is:
AQUEOUS ALTERATION OF CARBONACEOUS 

Re: [meteorite-list] Re: (meteorobs) Artificial meteorites head back into space

[Gerald Flaherty]

Not off topic at all! MOST approriate. Let's see if the little beastees can 
survive reentry. Poor things!  Glad they didn't tie me on!!!

Chalk up one to life's space travel MAYBE! Jerry
- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:41 AM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Re: (meteorobs) Artificial meteorites head back 
into space




WOW !

En un mensaje con fecha 06/01/2005 4:38:56 AM Mexico Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribe:

Collated from a collection of announcements and websites. I hope  this
isn't considered off-topic.

31 May 2005
An unmanned Foton-M  spacecraft carrying a mainly European payload was
put into orbit by a Russian  Soyuz-U launcher today at 14:00 Central
European Time (18:00 local time) from  the Baikonur Cosmodrome in
Kazakhstan. Following the launch and nine minutes  of propelled flight,
the Foton-M2 spacecraft is now in low-earth orbit where  it will remain
for 16 days before its re-entry module lands close to the  Russian/Kazakh
border.

The European payload carried by Foton-M2 covers  a scientific programme
consisting of 39 experiments in fluid physics,  biology, material
science, meteoritics, radiation dosimetry and  exobiology.

Of particular interest, the STONE-5 experiment considers  artificial
meteorites of sedimentary origin and aims to study the  physical,
chemical and biological modifications caused by atmospheric  entry.

Three different types of rock, loaded with micro-organisms, are  mounted
at the stagnation point in the heat shield (the hottest region  during
re-entry) of the Foton-M2 re-entry capsule. During re-entry into  the
atmosphere at the end of the two-week flight the three rocks will  be
subjected to temperature and pressure loads comparable to  those
experienced by meteorites.

You can read more here:

Foton  M2 launch announcement from ESA'a web  site.
http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMZDJ0DU8E_index_0.html

Details of the  STONE experiment from ESA's Erasmus Experiment  Archive
http://tinyurl.com/7m7c8

Esrange Satellite  Operations
http://www.ssc.se/default.asp?groupid=2004621135048841

--
David Entwistle
---
Mailing list  meteorobs
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.meteorobs.org/mailman/listinfo/meteorobs

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[meteorite-list] Don't buy the hair! subtitle: What flew up Neil Armstrong's butt?

[Darren Garrison]

This gets my vote for the biggest "most in need of a sense of humor in the 
feild of space science"
award since Apple had to rename a project to "Butthead Astronomer"


http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/06/01/armstrong.hair.ap/index.html

Neil Armstrong threatens to sue barbershop over hair clippings
Wednesday, June 1, 2005 Posted: 11:32 AM EDT (1532 GMT) 

CINCINNATI, Ohio (AP) -- Apollo moon mission astronaut Neil Armstrong has 
threatened to sue a
barbershop owner who collected Armstrong's hair after a trim and sold it for 
$3,000.

Armstrong, the first man to walk on the moon, used to go to Marx's Barber Shop 
in Lebanon about once
a month for a cut. That stopped when he learned that owner Marx Sizemore had 
collected his hair
clippings from the floor and sold them in May 2004 to a collector.

"I didn't deny it or anything," Sizemore said. "I told him I did it."

Sizemore said Armstrong asked him to try to retrieve the hair, but the buyer 
did not want to give it
back.

"I called Neil back and told him that," Sizemore said. "Then I got this letter 
from his lawyer."

The letter contends that the sale violated an Ohio law designed to protect the 
rights of famous
people. It threatens legal action if Sizemore does not return the hair or 
contribute his profit to
charity and asks Sizemore to pay Armstrong's legal expenses.

Sizemore, who said he already spent most of the $3,000 on bills, told the 
lawyer who sent the
letter, Ross Wales of Cincinnati, that he will not pay. Wales did not return a 
call seeking comment.

Sizemore said he sold the hair to an agent for John Reznikoff, a Westport, 
Connecticut, collector
listed by Guinness World Records as having the largest collection of hair from 
historical
celebrities. The collection, insured for $1 million, includes hair from Abraham 
Lincoln, Marilyn
Monroe, Albert Einstein and Napoleon.

Armstrong commanded NASA's Apollo 11 mission to the moon in 1969. He left the 
space program in 1971
to teach aeronautical engineering at the University of Cincinnati. He seldom 
appears at public
functions or grants interviews.






Oh, and for those not in the know, here's info on the Sagan incident I 
mentioned at the beginning of
the article:

http://idiot-dog.com/humor/butthead.html

OK for Apple to Call Sagan 'Butt-Head Astronomer'
The Computer Lawyer

SECTION: CURRENT DEVELOPMENTS; Tort; Vol. 11, No. 8; Pg. 32

HEADLINE: OK for Apple to Call Sagan 'Butt-Head Astronomer'
Apple Computer Inc. did not defame the prominent scientist Carl Sagan by 
calling him a "Butt-Head
Astronomer," a Central District of California court ruled, because the term did 
not imply any
assertion of an objective fact such as professional incompetence. Carl Sagan v. 
Apple Computer,
Inc., CV94-2180 LGB (C.D. Cal. 1994).

Apple Computer's project managers routinely assign code-names to products in 
development. In 1993,
one of Apple's project managers assigned the code name "Carl Sagan" to a 
personal computer it was
developing. After learning that his name was being used, Sagan had his 
attorneys write a letter to
Apple demanding it cease. In response, the project manager changed the 
computer's code-name to
"Butt-Head Astronomer." Sagan filed suit in federal court for libel, infliction 
of emotional
distress, invasion of privacy, unfair competition, and violation of the Lanham 
Act and California
law on the use of likenesses.

Apple argued that the term was an opinion, protected under the First Amendment. 
Judge Lourdes G.
Baird agreed. She noted that a statement of opinion can only form the basis of 
a libel action if a
reasonable fact-finder can conclude that the statements imply an assertion of 
fact. Judge Lourdes
[sic] held that "one does not seriously attack the expertise of a scientist 
using the undefined
phrase 'butt-head,'" and that a reader aware of the context would understand 
the project manager was
retaliating in a humorous and satirical way.

Judge Baird also ruled that Sagan could not recover for infliction of emotional 
distress, noting
Sagan is a public figure and that a public figure could only recover for 
infliction of emotional
distress by showing that the publication contains a false statement of fact 
made with actual malice.

However, Apple lost its motions for a more definite statement of Sagan's Lanham 
Act claim. Apple had
argued that Sagan's complaint had admitted that his name was only used 
internally at Apple, and
could not, therefore, have been "in commerce" as required by the Act. Judge 
Baird noted that Sagan's
complaint only asserted that Apple's attorneys had stated that the name was 
only used internally.
Finally, Judge Baird denied Apple's motion to strike Sagan's invasion of 
privacy count as redundant
in light of the right of publicity claim. She noted that the former asserted an 
additional request
for punitive damages, and that the other redundant elements did not prejudice 
the defendant in any
way.
_

[meteorite-list] AD-meteorites for sale

[Meteoriteshow]

Sorry but the link I have insterted in my previous post seems to have got
broken.
You can also go to http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/ and click on "meteorites
for sale".
Thanks for your understanding!
Best wishes,

Frederic Beroud
http://www.meteoriteshow.com
IMCA member # 2491 (http://www.imca.cc/)

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[meteorite-list] AD: new meteorite slices for sale on meteorieshow.com

[Meteoriteshow]

Dear List Member,

As you know, I attended the second I.M.M.B.M. in Chamonix, where some
meteorites slices were cut...
I have started to get some ready for sale on my web site, including some
very thin slices of ACFER 328 (CV3), some RARE slices of ACFER 331 (a CM2
that is very friable and difficult to cut...), some wide and thin slices of
ACFER 342 (L6 - see my chondiritic hears at
http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/cham-cutting.html), some slices / end-cuts of
unequilibrated chondrites (ACFER 336 & ACFER 337: two L3.8 that are not
paired)... And some more!

I should add some more again as soon as I can and will let you know. In the
meantime, should you be interested, you can have a look at: Meteorites for
sale
http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/meteoriteshow%20fra/pages%20navigation/pieces_e
n_vente-fra.html

Thanks for watching!
Kinddest regards,

Frederic Beroud
http://www.meteoriteshow.com
IMCA member # 2491 (http://www.imca.cc/)

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Re: [meteorite-list] Congratulations to Jeff Grossman!

[Meteoriteshow]

Hey, congrats Jeff!

Fred Beroud

- Original Message - 
From: "Ron Baalke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Meteorite Mailing List" 
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:32 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Congratulations to Jeff Grossman!


> 
> Congratulations to Jeff Grossman, who was recently honored by having an
> asteroid named after him.  The asteroid was discovered by Robert Matson.
> Below is the citation.
> 
> Ron Baalke
> 
> --
> 
> (99905) Jeffgrossman = 2002 QX50
> 
> Discovered 2002 Aug. 27 by R. Matson on NEAT images taken at Palomar.
> Jeffrey N. Grossman (b. 1955), a chemist at the U.S. Geological Survey
> in Reston, Virginia, conducts research in meteoritics and geochemistry.
> He is best known for his work on the origin of chondrules and chondrites
> and for studies of metamorphic processes on minor planets in the early
> solar system.
> __
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> 

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[meteorite-list] Jeff Grossman's email addy

[Dave Harris]

Hi,
I wanted to ask Jeff Grossman a question re a classification issue - anyone
have an email address that is appropriate for me to use?
I am averse to using the email address in MAPS as I assume that it is an
address for academics to use, rather than plebs like me.


Best

dave
IMCA #0092
Sec.BIMS
www.bimsociety.com 
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[meteorite-list] Making Sense of Droplets Inside Droplets (Chondrules & CAIs)

[Ron Baalke]

http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/May05/chondrulesCAIs.html

Making Sense of Droplets Inside Droplets
Planetary Science Research Discoveries
May 31, 2005

--- The vexing presence of chondrules inside supposedly older
calcium-aluminum-rich inclusions (CAIs) in chondrites makes sense if the
CAIs were remelted.

Written by G. Jeffrey Taylor 
Hawai'i Institute of Geophysics and Planetology

Chondrules and calcium-aluminum-rich inclusions (CAIs) in stony
meteorites called chondrites are
silicate objects only fractions of a millimeter to several millimeters
in diameter. Both formed during rapid heating events at the dawn of the
solar system, before there were planets. Conventional wisdom, based on
numerous observations and isotopic 
analyses, indicates that CAIs formed before chondrules. CAIs contained
more radioactive aluminum-26 (26Al, which has a half-life of only
730,000 years) when they formed than did chondrules, indicating that
they formed 1-3 million years earlier. Relict pieces of CAIs have even
been found inside chondrules, and so must have formed earlier. However,
Shoichi Itoh and Hisayoshi Yurimoto of the Tokyo Institute of Technology
found a chondrule inside a CAI, the reverse of the normal situation,
which indicated that some chondrules must have formed before CAIs, a
blow to the conventional wisdom.

Alexander (Sasha) Krot (University of Hawaii), Professor Yurimoto from
Tokyo, Ian Hutcheon (Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory), and Glenn
MacPherson (Smithsonian Institution) report two additional cases of
chondrules inside CAIs. They show that in both cases the CAIs contained
less 26Al when they crystallized than did most CAIs. The CAIs are also
depleted in oxygen-16 (16O), a characteristic associated with
chondrules. Durable minerals located in the central parts of the two
CAIs have 16O-rich compositions. Krot and his co-workers conclude that
the two chondrule-bearing CAIs had chondrule material added to them
during a reheating event about 2 million years after they had originally
formed. The conventional wisdom that CAIs are older than chondrules
remains intact, at least for now, but this work shows that CAIs, like
most solar system materials, can be reworked after they form.

Reference:

* Krot, A. N., H. Yurimoto, I. D. Hutcheon, and G. J. MacPherson
  (2005) Chronology of the early Solar System from chondrule-bearing
  calcium-aluminum-rich inclusions. Nature, vol. 434, p. 998-1001.



Chondrules and CAIs: Hot Stuff in the Early Solar System

Chondritic meteorites are composed of materials that formed before
planets roamed the solar system. The oldest of these materials are
calcium-aluminum-rich inclusions (CAIs), light-colored objects rich in
refractory elements (that condense at
a high temperature). Besides calcium and aluminum, this includes
magnesium, titanium, and rare earth elements. CAIs range in size from
about a millimeter to a centimeter. Meteoriticists have identified
several distinct varieties of CAIs, but all share a high temperature
origin. Some might be condensates from the solar nebular; for example,
see the PSRD article: First Rock in the Solar System
. Other CAIs might be
evaporation residues.

Allende meteorite
Slab of the Allende CV carbonaceous chondrite. Large light-colored
objects are CAIs. Smaller, round, dark objects are chondrules.


Efremovka meteorite
A calcium-aluminum-rich inclusion (CAI) in the carbonacious chondrite
Efremovka with anorthite (an), melilite (mel), and pyroxene (px).

Chondrules are millimeter-sized frozen droplets of molten silicate. They
are less refractory than CAIs, but are still relatively high-temperature
products of solar system formation. Like CAIs, they come in a wide
variety of types, but all share a history of having been melted
(requires a temperature of more than 1400oC) and cooled rapidly (5 to
1000oC/hour).

PCA91082 meteorite
The chondritic meteorite PCA 91082 contains both chondrules and CAIs.
This X-ray map shows the elemental abundances in the meteorite: red is
magnesium, green is calcium and blue is aluminum.



Oxygen Isotope Fingerprint

The relative abundances of the isotopes of oxygen are very informative
about the origin of solar system materials. There are three stable
(non-radioactive) varieties of oxygen isotopes. Each has the same number
of protons in the nucleus, but different numbers of neutrons, resulting
in atomic masses of 16, 17, and 18. These different isotopes are called
oxygen-16 (16O), oxygen-17 (17O), and oxygen-18 (18O).

On Earth, rocks vary in the proportions of the three oxygen isotopes,
but they vary in a simple way. Two rocks with the same 18O/16O ratio
will have the same 17O/16O ratio. If their 18O/16O ratios differ by,
say, 0.2%, t

[meteorite-list] How Deep Impact Works

[Ron Baalke]

http://science.howstuffworks.com/deep-impact.htm

How Deep Impact Works
by Carolyn Snare 
How Stuff Works

Comets are traveling balls of astronomic history. Their origins go 
back to the formation of the solar system, approximately 4.6 billion 
years ago. When the sun was formed, it caused gases
and dust to be dispelled into space. Some of these materials later
formed planets, while quantities of these gases and dust settled into
orbits around but far from the sun.

Comets are thought to be consolidated balls of these materials,
containing ice, dust, organic matter and possibly rock, formed
approximately 4 billion years ago. As they travel through the solar
system, they pick up additional debris. In this way, comets are windows
into the history of the solar system. But with diameters of up to 60
miles (100 km), you can't just reach up and snag one in a big net in
order to study it.

Still, scientists are finding a way to get at the information: On
January 12, 2005, NASA's Discovery Mission Deep Impact launched with the
intent to probe beneath the surface of a comet. On July 4, 2005, Deep
Impact will encounter Comet Tempel 1.

The Basics

Comet Tempel 1 will be in its most solid stage, consisting of a nucleus
approximate 3.7 miles (6 km) in diameter, when it encounters the Deep
Impact spacecraft in July 2005. (For information on comets, including
their structure and composition, check out How Comets Work
.) The primary goal behind
the Deep Impact mission is to study the interior and the exterior of the
same comet.

The Deep Impact spacecraft consists of two parts: a flyby and an
impactor. When the spacecraft is close to the comet, the two parts will
separate. The impactor will put itself in the comet's path, causing a
collision between the two bodies.

If all goes well, the impactor will create a crater in the comet that
goes well below the surface and exposes the protected material below --
the "pristine material" that was formed during the birth of the solar
system. By studying both the material that comes out of the crater upon
impact and the characteristics of the comet that the crater exposes,
scientists will have an unprecedented view of the solar system in its
infancy. To learn more about impact craters, see Deep Impact: Cratering
.

The Science Behind the Mission

When scientists were developing the Deep Impact mission, they set forth
the following objectives:

* Observe how the crater forms
* Measure the crater's depth and diameter
* Measure the composition of the interior of the crater and the
  material that is ejected upon its creation
* Determine the changes in natural outgassing produced by the impact

They hope that the information they gather from these objectives will
help them answer three primary questions about comets:

* Where is the pristine material in comets?
* Do comets lose their ice or seal it in?
* What do we know about crater formation?

Scientists believe the nucleus of a comet consists of two layers: an
external layer called the mantle and an internal layer considered to be
pristine. As a comet moves through the solar system, its mantle changes.
As it approaches the sun, some of the external ice sublimates and is
dispelled. It may also encounter and pick up additional debris. The
protected, pristine interior of the comet, however, is thought to be
unaffected by the comet's travels and could be as it was when the comet
was formed. Scientists believe that a study of the differences between
the two layers will tell them a great deal about the nature of the solar
system, both its formation and its evolution through the years.

Another major question scientists have about comets is whether or not
they go dormant or extinct due to the heat of the sun. A dormant comet
is one in which the mantle has sealed off the pristine interior layer,
and no gases pass from this interior layer to the exterior layer and out
of the comet. An extinct comet has no more gases in its nucleus at all,
and as such will never change. Results from the Deep Impact mission will
give scientists a better view of the nature of the mantle and enable
them to determine if Tempel 1 is active, dormant or extinct.

When the impactor makes the crater on Tempel 1, the results will provide
lots of information about the nature of comets. The actual formation of
the crater, how fast it is formed and its final dimensions will tell
scientists how porous the mantle and the pristine layers are. A study of
how the material is ejected from the crater site will show both its
porosity and density and potentially the mass of the comet as well.
Information from the entire cratering process
may give some indication of what kind of material actually makes up the
comet, which will help scientists understand how the comet formed and
how it has evolved over time.

The Muscle and Mind Behind the Mission

The 

[meteorite-list] Congressman Rohrabacher Backs Asteroid Agency

[Ron Baalke]

http://www.wired.com/news/space/0,2697,67697,00.html

Congressman Backs Asteroid Agency 
Wired News
June 1, 2005

The creation of a government agency to protect the Earth from a
catastrophic asteroid strike is being endorsed by a senior member of the
U.S. House Science Committee.

But a related space mission to track an asteroid that may hit Earth in 2036 
can't seem to get off the ground.

Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-California) said in a phone interview on Friday
that he supports former Apollo astronaut Russell Schweickart's proposal
to create a federal asteroid-response agency. Rohrabacher said he will
push Congress and the president to "take action on this by the end of
the year."

The proposed agency would have the authority to deflect or destroy a
threatening asteroid, most likely with the help of NASA and the Defense
Department. It would also mobilize emergency-response teams if an
asteroid impact could not be avoided.

Schweickart first proposed the idea last month, during a presentation at
the International Space Development Conference in Arlington, Virginia.

Both Rohrabacher and Schweickart acknowledge the chance of an asteroid
strike is extremely small. But they argue that the consequences of an
impact make it necessary to prepare in advance.

"I think it's worthwhile for us," said Rohrabacher. "If something can
destroy something the size of Rhode Island and disrupt the ecosystem of
the world, it's important to us."

So far, NASA's response to the idea has been positive.

"Right now, NASA has a charter to find and track these objects, but if
we do find something, who do we call?" said Donald Yeomans, manager of
NASA's Near Earth Object program. "It would be nice if someone had the
responsibility. The plans should be in someone's desk drawer."

Support for Schweickart's other proposal has not been so positive.
Schweickart has called on Congress to authorize a $300 million mission
to place a transponder on a 1,050-foot-wide asteroid known as 2004 MN4.

NASA scientists believe the asteroid has a roughly 1 in 14,000 chance of
smashing into Earth when it comes around in 2036. Schweickart argues
that a transponder would help refine that estimate and give the
appropriate agencies time to react, should we learn that the chance is
actually more like 1 in 10.

But Yeomans and other scientists believe ground-based studies over the
next decade will be just as effective in determining whether 2004 MN4
will actually hit Earth.

"I would be of the mind to wait until 2013 and get the optical and radar
data then," said Yeomans. "By far, the most probable situation is that
this will go away. If it doesn't, then we still have time to do
something about it."

Rohrabacher said he, too, preferred to wait before deciding whether a
tracking mission to the asteroid was necessary.

"In terms of a specific assignment, I've got make a determination as to
how we're going to deal with (a threatening asteroid) -- and who will
deal with it -- before we make that kind of assignment," he said.

Rohrabacher already has two asteroid-related bills before the House. The
Charles Conrad Astronomy Awards Act would reward amateur astronomers who
find near-Earth objects like comets and asteroids.

The George E. Brown Jr. Near-Earth Object Survey Act would require NASA
to expand its catalog of near-Earth objects to include objects down to
100 meters in diameter. The agency currently catalogs objects down to 1
kilometer in diameter.

Rohrabacher said he next plans to send a letter to NASA chief Michael
Griffin, asking for his official stance on the creation of a federal
asteroid-response agency. He said he hopes Congress or the president
will appoint an agency by the end of the year.

End of story

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[meteorite-list] Comet Put on List of Potential Earth Impactors

[Ron Baalke]

http://www.newscientistspace.com/article/dn7449.html

Comet put on list of potential Earth impactors
David L Chandler
New Scientist
June 1, 2005

A comet has been added to the list of potentially threatening near-Earth
objects maintained by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. Comet Catalina
2005 JQ5 is the largest - and therefore most potentially devastating -
of the 70 objects now being tracked. However, the chances of a collision
are very low.

The listing of Comet Catalina underscores the uncertainty in the
knowledge of whether comets or asteroids pose a greater threat to Earth.
Previous estimates of the proportion of the impact risk posed by comets
have varied widely, from 1% to 50%, with most recent estimates at the
lower end.

But comets are larger and faster-moving, on average, so their impacts
could be a significant part of the overall risk to human life. And,
unlike asteroids, they lie on randomly-oriented and usually highly
elongated orbits. This makes them much more likely to remain
undiscovered until they are very close to Earth.

Comet Catalina was found by the Catalina Sky Survey, one of the six
current, large-scale and automated search programmes for near-Earth
asteroids. It was initially designated as an asteroid when first spotted
on May 6. But was reclassified as a comet when observers saw
characteristic fuzziness in the image, indicating ice and dust streaming
off.

Its size is estimated at 980 metres, but Steve Chesley of JPL told New
Scientist that the size determination is based on the assumption it is a
dark-bodied asteroid, and so the bright coma of a comet would cause the
estimate to be high. "It's really an upper limit," he said.

Collision course?

On 26 May, JPL's unique orbital calculation software determined that
Comet Catalina was on what could possibly be a collision course with
Earth, though the odds of such an impact were small: just 1 chance in
300,000 of a strike on June 11, 2085. Based on the 980-metre size 
estimate, that would produce a 6-gigaton impact - equivalent to 
6 billion tonnes of TNT.

Astronomers expected the addition of further observations to the
calculations to rule out any possibility of a collision, as happens with
most newly-seen objects.

But that did not quite happen. The comet's predicted pathway actually
drew even closer to making a perfect bull's-eye with the Earth - its
predicted path passes within 1000 kilometres of the where the centre of
our 12,700-km-diameter planet will be around that time.

However, uncertainty in the exact timing of the comet's pass through the
line of Earth's orbit dropped the odds of an impact to about 1 in 120
million. That is very low, but the observations so far cannot
categorically rule a collision out.

Forceful outgassing

Chesley adds that even the slim 1 in 120 million odds are an
overestimate, because comets, unlike asteroids, can move in
unpredictable ways because of the forceful outgassing that creates their
dusty comas and tails. "The uncertainty is much larger than we're
modelling," he said. "But I haven't come up with a good way of dealing
with this."

The only other comet placed on the JPL list of near-Earth objects with
possible collision paths was added in 2003. But additional observations
ruled out a possible impact - that comet was removed from the list after
less than a week.

Just one other comet, Swift-Tuttle, has been recorded with a non-zero
possibility of impact. It was rediscovered in 1992 - after more than a
century's absence - before the JPL list was created.

Additional observations during Swift-Tuttle's passage, thanks to the
publicity surrounding the possible impact, made it possible to rule out
the possibility of an Earth impact anytime in this millennium. However,
Swift-Tuttle is on an orbit that will almost certainly cause it to crash
into the Earth or the moon eventually.

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[meteorite-list] AD - New Ureilite Auctions Ending Today and Others

[Greg Hupe]

Dear List Members,

In just a few short hours, the last few specimens of our new and fresh NWA 
2705 ureilite auctions will end under my eBay seller name, naturesvault.


Here are the direct links to them if you are interested:

NEW - NWA 2705 Low TKW Ureilite Meteorite
3.2g End Cut 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6535332654&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1
2.9g Complete Slice 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6535332946&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1
2.7g Complete Slice 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6535333246&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1
122mg Pieces 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6535333803&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1


In addition to these fine specimens, I also have several "LAST PIECE" 
auctions ending tonight. There are several unclassified individuals, 500g 
and 1 kilo lots, including all of the other rare material I offer weekly. I 
am running low on the thin sections I have up so if you are interested in 
these you will want to check out all of my auctions.


To see any of the material I have mentioned, click on one of the above links 
and then click "View seller's other auctions". That, or go to eBay and 
search for items by seller, naturesvault.


Best regards,

Greg Hupe
The Hupe Collection
naturesvault (eBay)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
IMCA 2185

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[meteorite-list] Congratulations to Jeff Grossman!

[Ron Baalke]

Congratulations to Jeff Grossman, who was recently honored by having an
asteroid named after him.  The asteroid was discovered by Robert Matson.
Below is the citation.

Ron Baalke

--

(99905) Jeffgrossman = 2002 QX50

Discovered 2002 Aug. 27 by R. Matson on NEAT images taken at Palomar.
Jeffrey N. Grossman (b. 1955), a chemist at the U.S. Geological Survey
in Reston, Virginia, conducts research in meteoritics and geochemistry.
He is best known for his work on the origin of chondrules and chondrites
and for studies of metamorphic processes on minor planets in the early
solar system.
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[meteorite-list] Ad- Ebay -nice Millbillillillie slice

[Dave Harris]

Hi,
Well, I have decided to put the Millbill slice on eBay



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6536757956


anyone interested?


dave
IMCA #0092 
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[meteorite-list] Off Topic Spoof Warning

[Dave Freeman mjwy]

Dear List members;
I have been receiving a new "powerseller" offer to join eBay 
powersellers when I already am one. Beware that these are bad eggs and 
should be forwarded  to ebay. Do not put any info. by clicking on the 
phony ebay link imbedded in the text. Phony email looks very real but is 
not. Ebay will not ask you to click to their link.

Dave F.
mjwy

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Re: [meteorite-list] Chondrules inside CAIs

[Bill Southern]

Thank you Walter! 


Bill

- Original Message - 
From: "Walter Branch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 6:58 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Chondrules inside CAIs



Hello Everyone,

Ok, if you are not interesed in this, you are not interested 
in meteorites!


Just got this emailed to me from the University of
Hawaii.  This is an interesting article which discusses
the presence of chondrules inside CAIs. 


http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/May05/chondrulesCAIs.html

Very interesting text and nice photos.

Best wishes,

-Walter Branch
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[meteorite-list] Re: (meteorobs) Artificial meteorites head back into space

[MexicoDoug]

WOW !
 
En un mensaje con fecha 06/01/2005 4:38:56 AM Mexico Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribe:

Collated from a collection of announcements and websites. I hope  this
isn't considered off-topic.

31 May 2005 
An unmanned Foton-M  spacecraft carrying a mainly European payload was
put into orbit by a Russian  Soyuz-U launcher today at 14:00 Central
European Time (18:00 local time) from  the Baikonur Cosmodrome in
Kazakhstan. Following the launch and nine minutes  of propelled flight,
the Foton-M2 spacecraft is now in low-earth orbit where  it will remain
for 16 days before its re-entry module lands close to the  Russian/Kazakh
border.

The European payload carried by Foton-M2 covers  a scientific programme
consisting of 39 experiments in fluid physics,  biology, material
science, meteoritics, radiation dosimetry and  exobiology.

Of particular interest, the STONE-5 experiment considers  artificial
meteorites of sedimentary origin and aims to study the  physical,
chemical and biological modifications caused by atmospheric  entry.

Three different types of rock, loaded with micro-organisms, are  mounted
at the stagnation point in the heat shield (the hottest region  during
re-entry) of the Foton-M2 re-entry capsule. During re-entry into  the
atmosphere at the end of the two-week flight the three rocks will  be
subjected to temperature and pressure loads comparable to  those
experienced by meteorites.

You can read more here:

Foton  M2 launch announcement from ESA'a web  site.
http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMZDJ0DU8E_index_0.html

Details of the  STONE experiment from ESA's Erasmus Experiment  Archive
http://tinyurl.com/7m7c8

Esrange Satellite  Operations
http://www.ssc.se/default.asp?groupid=2004621135048841

--  
David Entwistle
---
Mailing list  meteorobs
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.meteorobs.org/mailman/listinfo/meteorobs
 
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Re: [meteorite-list] Water in space

[MexicoDoug]

Tracy L. wrote:
>Exactly!  Consider the case of copper  carbonate.  In its hydrated form, 
>it is a pretty blue crystal; we  used to use it in our swimming hole in 
>low amounts to kill off algae and  weeds.  In its anhydrous form, it's 
>a greenish powder.  Don't  eat either one; bad.   I'm not akamai enough
>to guess what  hydrates might be present in meteorites, but I'm pretty 
>sure this is  what is meant by water being present in meteorites, 
>chemically bound  into various minerals, which may be released by 
>heating or chemical  reaction.

A-Hola Tracy, H.  The idea that a hydrate is a great  way to stabilize 
water I totally agree with you and the physics of it, so I  follow there.  But:
 
I think you are confusing copper sulfate (pretty hue, light royal blue  
crystals) with copper carbonate and/or copper carbonate hydroxide  minerals.  
Copper carbonate does not form a hydrated complex in a chemical  sense, though 
copper carbonate hydroxide might be loosely called "hydrated"  instead of a 
hydroxide, by some fast talking pool chemical salesman (or mystic  jewelry 
peddler?) 
at local pool store if it is really sold there (?).   Anyway, a hydroxide is 
a different chemical animal than a hydrated complex  containing water which is 
bound by weaker structural or van der waals types of  attraction: that to 
which I think Chris eluded and of main interest here for  water are 
chemical/structural "hydrates".  

That chemical hydrated  compound on your mind would likely be Copper Sulfate, 
wouldn't it?  It  forms a pentahydrate = complex with 5 water molecules per 
Copper/Sulfur.   The Copper carbonate might be an undesirable precipitate in 
the swimming hole  produced from interaction of copper sulfate with lime or 
disolved carbon dioxide  I bet, and it might be a yucky green?

Copper Sulfate (a.k.a., synthetic  chalcanthite) is a beautiful lab example 
of a stable hydrated complex to at  least +150 C.  It is quite possible it 
could appear in trace quantities in  meteorites, so you are not far off at all 
if 
we deal with CuSo4*5H20 !!   

However, the more common hydrated (i.e., bound water) reservoirs found  in 
some meteorites I found in the literature based on your contemplation of not  
even guessing, would be a suite of clay minerals, which can result from the  
aqueous modification ("weathering") products of feldspars and pyroxenes, common 
 
meteoritic stock.  That is the same kinds of clay that expands when you mix  
it with water and can be formed into shapes...i.e., hydrated clay - well not 
all  Clays hydrate, but plenty do.

Clay minerals are very complicated beasts  that still cause all kinds of 
trouble even regarding nomenclature to say what is  what, since their 
structures 
vary so much, simply being a woven backbone pattern  of silicates and 
hydroxides and a variety of candidate cations/metals, and  ambiguous formulae 
something 
like (Ca,Na,H)(Al,Mg,Fe,Zn)2(Si,Al)4O10(OH)2*n(H2O)  in the case of 
smectites, which can form widely variable laminar sheets which  suck up water 
between 
them better than silica gel!  Unlike copper sulfate,  slight changes in 
temperature and humidity can reverberate by changing their  structures, 
formula, and 
most importantly, amount of bound water - even getting  a density is hard, let 
alone a positive compositional ID.  So that is why  you can't do too much 
better than "clay minerals".  The two best tests are  a taste test and messy 
Separation-Xray analysis.  And that would seem to be  the variable/flexible 
nature 
of much of the bound water in  not-too-shocked-and-baked meteoroids for s/he 
who wants to really do some  bonding with them...

For chondrites, here are some of those hydrated  beasts that serve as space 
oasises (that has a nice ring to it):

Type 3:  phyllosilicates, principally smectites and micas, serpentine 
associated with  ferrihydrite.
Type 2: Smectites (rare in the CM2s, abundant in the CR2s),  Abundant 
serpentines (with extremely variable compositions and structures),  Mg-Fe 
sulfates, 
tochilinite-serpentine intergrowths and carbonates.
Type 1:  Saponite + (Serpentine) 

Taken from an impressive face-off of Zolensky  and Bischoff in Maui at:
WORKSHOP ON PARENT-BODY AND NEBULAR MODIFICATION OF  CHONDRITIC MATERIALS 
(preliminary program)
June 17, 1997, Maui,  Hawai'i
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/chondrite/pdf/program.pdf

I  chose the Zolensky writeup not because I don't believe the other competing 
 theories (I am a Bischoff fan), but rather because of the enumeration of  
minerals he did including some clay and other hydrate-ables.  The  
documentation 
is:
AQUEOUS ALTERATION OF CARBONACEOUS CHONDRITES: EVIDENCE FOR  ASTEROIDAL
ALTERATION. M. E. Zolensky, Mail Code SN2, NASA Johnson Space  Center, 
Houston TX 77058, USA.

Wish to have been a fly for three days on  the hotel wall in Maui then,
Aloha, Doug
 
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[meteorite-list] Lost/stolen Morasko

[Martin Altmann]

Hello list,

a cut, etched Morasko individual of 288grams with fine Neumann lines was
lost or rather stolen by Polish post these days.
Please contanct me ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) or Andrzej Pilski (
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ),
if you find it offered somewhere.
A picture:
http://jba1.republika.pl/defkom.htm

Many thanks for your help,
Martin

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Re: [meteorite-list] Water in Meteorites

[Martin Altmann]

As Zag is very widespread among the collectors as one of the most affordable
observed falls
- did anyone observed those salt crystals yet?
They seem to be quite rare

Meow?
Martin

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 10:35 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Water in Meteorites


> Tom inquired:
>
> > It sure makes me wonder how they could keep space water
> > in them if they were not picked up immediately after the fall?
>
> Because they do not contain *l i q u i d*  water. The water found
> in carbonaceous chondrites and Martian meteorites can only be
> extracted by heating the meteorite samples.
>
> There are only two meteorites known to contain liquid water:
>
> - Monahans
> - Zag
>
> where the water was found in salt crystals inside these meteorites.
>
> see also Chris L Peterson's post to the List!
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Bernd
>
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