[meteorite-list] Treasure Hunters
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.
What have YOU done to preserve science? And, what do you have in your
collection that you shouldn't have (meaning anything that wasn't
correctly scientifically removed)? Exactly what are your credentials
to be knowledgeable to whine..?
It is very easy for those stoic office types to complain about those in
the field doing the real WORK.
Our western lands are not studied because the amateur is shut out by
the scientific lobby in congress so the stuff just sits and gets eroded
away by nature. In the CFR, under "artifacts" there is no penalty for
collecting random arrowheads on the surface of the ground. So, don't
forget that. Don't forget that private land still is private, and what
may be collected there is not controlled by blue footed boobies. Poo
poo to all those that have an opinion but do nothing to support the
cause. I am actually still surprised that anyone can own meteorites
or artifacts of any kind with the few bone-heads-for-science that roam
our country. There is nothing wrong with good science but letting
things erode to nothing in the name of preservation is quite self
serving for nothing.
I will get of my soap box now. Mr. Dave and Mr. Jimgot
me!
DAve F.
Thaddeus Besedin wrote:
They should be recovered, but we should be aware of how our
excavation impacts other deposits. I'll let this rest, guys. You know
my position by now. The same argument ("it will rot if I do
nothing")is advanced by"relic" hunters whosearch rivers, but there
is a major difference between surface hunting and excavation, and
especially in the contexts of drainages and areas subject to mass
wasting. to protect their "troves," looters typically do not disclose
the provenances of their finds when offered for sale, if at all they
have been conscientious enough torecord a GPS position.Such
negligence is irresponsible, and proves that the motive for these
activities is itself personal gain. Seriously, the prices that these
meteorites yield would be betterdeserved if all sciences involved with
the thin, fragilesurface of the earth are considered. This would be
the attitude of a professional in any other invasive field.
-Thaddeus
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[meteorite-list] Planet V (for Five)
Hi, List, With several stories being posted about the new research on lunar return samples showing that there was indeed a Late Heavy Bombardment with a sharp peak after a quiet period, instead of the Final Flurry of an ongoing bombardment, I realized that the Planet V hypothesis put forward several years ago to account for the LHB also ties in with several other new developments. The Asteroid Belt should be a zone of relatively similar objects in relatively circular, non-inclined orbits; that's what ALL the Solar System formation theories would predict, despite the differing formation mechanisms they propose. But, of course the real Asteroid Belt isn't like that. There are a wide variety of compositions, like iron asteroids (that could never have formed that far out), dry asteroids, wet asteroids, carbonaceous asteroids, differentiated asteroids, non-differentiated asteroids, asteroids with diamonds, asteroids that smell like bubble gum... You name it. In short, every oddball composition we know from meteorites. The SRI published a computer simulation earlier this year (about which Ron Baalke posted to The List) that suggests the Asteroid Zone is full of objects that formed elsewhere in the Solar System (like iron asteroids) because they were ALL deflected there from other parts of the Solar System. It is silent on what did the deflecting, but the simulations seems to show that's the only way they could get there And, there are asteroid families with very distinctive eccentric and inclined orbits, grouped together. The delta-V required to drive asteroids into those orbits requires repeated close encounters with a body larger than Mars (about 1 to 4 Mars masses). This observation is decades old, but no one has ever suggested, again, what did the deflecting, or when. Below is a news story about Chambers and Lissauer's Planet V (for Five) hypothesis, which they offer as an explanation for the Late Lunar Bombardment, but it seems to me that the hypothesis may have legs, as they say, and that the other unexplained conditions described above offer some confirmatory implications. And, if you're looking for other unexplained facts to tuck into the envelope, there's the anomalous slow, backward rotation of Venus (a day longer than its year), for which repeated close encounters with a large body has been suggested as a cause. Planet V? And last, there's the mantle-stripping Big Splat on Mercury. We've always assumed that it took place as early as our own Moon-forming Big Impact, but it could have happened at 3.8 to 3.9 billion years ago instead, the final outcome of Planet V's rogue career. Guess we have to wait for that Mercury Sample Return Mission to find out... Here's the only Chambers paper on the hypothesis that I could get to, for free anyway: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2002/pdf/1093.pdf There's an Australian paper that tries to duplicate the results of Chambers and Lissauer, but can't. http://eo.ucar.edu/staff/dward/sao/dward617paper.pdf Its flaw is that it makes Planet V a puny little thing, about 5 to 8 times too small to do the job. But then, so does Chambers, because he wants Planet V to end up crashing into the Sun, a silly notion whose attractions I am blind to. I like the Big Splat. But I understand his problem. If you're going to stick another planet in the Solar System to account for all these things, why, you have to get rid of it somehow since it doesn't seem to be around any more! Mercury makes a perfectly good hit man. Sterling K. Webb -- http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/fifth_planet_020318.html Long-Destroyed Fifth Planet May Have Caused Lunar Cataclysm, Researchers Say By Leonard David, Senior Space Writer posted: 03:00 pm ET, 18 March 2002 HOUSTON, TEXAS -- Our solar system may have had a fifth terrestrial planet, one that was swallowed up by the Sun. But before it was destroyed, the now missing-in-action world made a mess of things. Space scientists John Chambers and Jack Lissauer of NASA's Ames Research Center hypothesize that along with Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars -- the terrestrial, rocky planets -- there was a fifth terrestrial world, likely just outside of Mars's orbit and before the inner asteroid belt. Moreover, Planet V was a troublemaker. The computer modeling findings of Chambers and Lissauer were presented during the 33rd Lunar and Planetary Science Conference, held here March 11-15, and sponsored by NASA and the Lunar and Planetary Institute. It is commonly believed that during the formative years of our solar system, between 3.8 billion and 4 billion years ago, the Moon and Earth took a pounding from space debris. However, there is an on-going debate as to whether or not the bruising impacts tailed off 3.8 billion year ago or if there was a sudden increase - a spike --
[meteorite-list] Bumper Crop of New Objects Revealed Beyond Neptune
http://www.newscientistspace.com/article/dn9056-bumper-crop-of-new-objects-revealed-beyond-neptune.html Bumper crop of new objects revealed beyond Neptune Jeff Hecht New Scientist April 26, 2006 Astronomers have found 45 previously unknown bodies of rock and ice orbiting beyond Neptune in the Kuiper Belt. They range from about 50 to 500 kilometres wide. The announcement is probably a record for the most new solar system objects reported simultaneously, increasing the number of distant objects with well defined orbits by nearly 10%. But its real importance will be in measuring the distribution of distant objects well enough to test theories of how the outer solar system evolved. So says Joel Parker at the Southwest Research Institute in Boulder, Colorado, US, a member of the team that found the new objects. About 1100 small objects have been spotted in the outer solar system since the discovery of the first Kuiper Belt Object in 1992. However, astronomers have concentrated more on discovering objects than on tracking them, so about half were never seen again after only brief observation, says Brian Marsden of the Minor Planet Center at the Harvard Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. The Minor Planet Center aids follow-up observers by calculating the preliminary orbits they need to spot the objects again. But when the MPC has only a few days' worth of data to work with, they have to assume the objects follow common orbits that are circular or, alternatively, linked with Neptune's orbit. Telling tales Those assumptions usually work, and the objects are seen again where expected. But they can miss the paths of objects with less-common orbits. And it's those few unusual things that really tell you the story of the solar system, Parker told New Scientist. Different models of how the solar system evolved make different projections of how many objects should occupy certain orbits, so knowing the distribution of objects can support or eliminate some hypotheses. Parker, lead researcher Brett Gladman at the University of British Columbia, Canada, and others were concerned that objects in important orbits might be escaping detection, so in 2003 they launched the Canada France Ecliptic Plane Survey. No snapshots The researchers repeatedly scan regions of the sky where distant objects are most likely to lurk, identify slow-moving candidate objects, then track the objects themselves rather than relying on other groups. Taking this extended data, rather than a brief snapshot, ensured that no mistaken assumptions down the line could cause the objects to evade future detection. The study was to be as complete and free of 'recovery bias' as possible, Parker explains. In February, after more than two years of accumulating data, they began feeding observations to Marsden at the Minor Planet Center. The 45 new objects yielded by observations are described in the Minor Planet Electronic Circular issued on Saturday. Meanwhile, Gladman's group is now analysing the differences between the orbital distributions recorded by its survey and in previous, more conventional studies. They hope to uncover what the orbits of these new objects will add to the early story of the solar system. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Treasure Hunters: what big main masses you have
I work on threatened prehistoric complexes in California. Should I have towave myphallus in the air for you? You still don't get the point. Mistakes I or anyone havemade in the past should not condemn one to the same trajectory.Are you sayingan institutioncannot rectify an inertia treacherously corrupt?How childish to deny our detrimental shortcuts. Credentials? Should a degree of pedagogy (the degrees of pedagogy)dictate our integrity? No, instead, let the glory of cable television give us brimmed hats, rugged stubble, and the bodies of amorous feminineopportunists: the romance of any free-for-all and the pleasurethat acarte blanche has to coffer. You wouldn't give a sh*t if itwas just a radiolarian-rich sedimentor a fragment of debitage.Dave Freeman mjwy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.What have YOU done to preserve science? And, what do you have in your collection that you shouldn't have (meaning anything that wasn't correctly scientifically removed)? Exactly what are your credentials to be knowledgeable to whine..?It is very easy for those stoic office types to complain about those in the field doing the real WORK. Our western lands are not studied because the amateur is shut out by the scientific lobby in congress so the stuff just sits and gets eroded away by nature. In the CFR, under "artifacts" there is no penalty for collecting random arrowheads on the surface of the ground. So, don't forget that. Don't forget that private land still is private, and what may be collected there is not controlled by blue footed boobies. Poo poo to all those that have an opinion
but do nothing to support the cause. I am actually still surprised that anyone can own meteorites or artifacts of any kind with the few bone-heads-for-science that roam our country. There is nothing wrong with good science but letting things erode to nothing in the name of preservation is quite self serving for nothing.I will get of my soap box now. Mr. Dave and Mr. Jimgot me!DAve F.Thaddeus Besedin wrote:They should be recovered, but we should be aware of how our excavation impacts other deposits. I'll let this rest, guys. You know my position by now. The same argument ("it will rot if I do nothing")is advanced by"relic" hunters whosearch rivers, but there is a major difference between surface hunting and excavation, and especially in the contexts of drainages and areas subject to mass
wasting. to protect their "troves," looters typically do not disclose the provenances of their finds when offered for sale, if at all they have been conscientious enough torecord a GPS position.Such negligence is irresponsible, and proves that the motive for these activities is itself personal gain. Seriously, the prices that these meteorites yield would be betterdeserved if all sciences involved with the thin, fragilesurface of the earth are considered. This would be the attitude of a professional in any other invasive field. -Thaddeus New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
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[meteorite-list] New caution for ebay buyers!
Just received the same email request on two different email accounts within 30 minutes of one another: Looks just like an eBay request to click a button and pay now for an auction, except it refers to non-existent auctions! I find this interesting as it requests payment in euros and I have just had auctions up on the German ebay site that have buyers pay in euros. Comes from: Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from 18.67-18-125.reverse.theplanet.com ([67.18.125.18]) Looks like UK or Romania, it seems to bounce around. Does the retune path tell any of you where it originates? (Just out of curiosity!) Ron Hartman -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/324 - Release Date: 4/25/2006 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NWA 1110 and paired specimens: what is the consensus?
Hello list (and I apologize for my offenses [ha ha]), Have we all come to terms with the status of so-called NWA 1110 fragments sold on EBAy andother through direct sale 1.5 years ago? Have any beenanalyzed? Arethey genuine? -Thaddeus Besedin (my real name, and my sh*t stinks too) Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.__ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Treasure
I'm referring to the pits that you are digging, not indices of impact force that scar the earth, such as craters. I am not calling meteorites relics - it is the presentation of meteorite huntingby this particular program astantamountto treasure (cultural "relic" ) hunting with impunity. This relic hunting is being promoted by your show. The impact is great: it costs us all our cultural heritage. Meteorite hunting is not the problem. How many times must I repeat this? It is the attitude that is the problem. You do realize thatno matter when the fall happened,Brenham meteorites were either observed by humans, a threat to life in the strewn field (with obvious ecological implications), or buried beneath sediments possibly containing traces of events too small for yourslobberingregard. EBay: you said it all. You'd sell human remains to the highest bidderif itwere legal. Notkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Listees:Greetings comrades.Just returned late last night from our Brenham/Glorieta documentary shoot: sunburned, bruised, scratched, and battered, but what a great experience. Our Travel Channel host, the glamorous Becky Worley, jumped right into the action and was digging holes, riding ATVs, swinging metal detectors, and generally working her way through an intense meteorite-hunting apprenticeship in 48 hours flat. She's a knockout.Thanks to Mark and Ruben for posting their photos of our expedition. I'll post my own as soon as I can. Mark Bostick and his bro came all the way down from Wichita for the dig on Thursday. It was good to see some friendly faces and I appreciate the nice web presentation he put together.In other news: this Besednice character is a real corker isn't he? He's gotta be just a fake ID, or a troll right? With a name like that I'm putting my money on Jim Strope or Dave Andrews having some fun with us.Thaddeus Besednice posted: Oh great - another glorification of looting (relic hunting)!A relic is generally assumed to be a product of, or an item specifically associated with, human culture and history (i.e. an ancient religious relic), so it doesn't really work with a meteorite. Also, how can you be looting something when its owner (the landowner) has expressly asked you to excavate it from his own property? Answer me that, Mr. Moldavite. Do Any of the Brenham pits get at least a cursory record of their possible prehistoric components?They're not pits, silly. The Brenhams are completely buried, way, way underground, a bit like your conscience. An "impact pit" is a modest surface indentation made by a meteorite which is too small (or traveling too slowly) to produce an actual crater. I suggest reading Mr. Norton's "Rocks from Space" where you can learn some other helpful meteorite terms, and then use them at parties.FYI, Steve meticulously records the depth, orientation, GPS coordinates, and other detailed info for every single find. A scientific study (in association with a prominent geologist on the List) is underway to determine the true age of the fall. I can't wait! IMO the Brenham fall took place more recently than many of us think.In addition, valuable and detailed strewnfield data is being collected with each new find. The area around each excavated Brenham is carefully checked for meteorite fragments, as well as the flattened, fossilized carcass of an ancient Kansas plains camel, big sabre tooth kitty, or -- if we're super lucky -- Thaddeus Besednice himself. Steve is REALLY hoping that directly beneath one of the big irons he will discover a wafer-thin buffalo mummy. Imagine how much that would go for on eBay! I'm justifiablyand unassailably an enemy of the irresponsible, counterscientific, hobbyistattitudes glorified by certain people and uncritically tolerated by others (accomplices).Good lord that's fabulous. A sentence worthy of Thomas Pynchon! Yes, that would be me, one of the accomplices. I know you're just jealous you big Moldavite. No, we don't need degrees to collect lumps of asteroids, planets, and comets, but a bit of respect for irreplacable biological taxa and cultural residues would make us more than drooling, avaricious freebooters.Unfortunately, most of the eminent scientists with degrees are too busy with classifications, new papers, and important lab work to go scurrying around in the mud with us, but we're happy to do our part. I do agree with you though -- think of all the "irreplacable biological taxa" that resides at the bottom of a hole in a field in a Kansas farm! If you want to come out and study it, I'll be happy to hand you a shovel.Anyway, just to contradict you one more time, Steve has had recognized academics up to Brenham to inspect the work-in-progress, notably the excellent Dr. Art Ehlmann of the Oscar Monnig Gallery, TCU.I know this guy Besednice is just a gag by someone, but replied for the sake of some List members who might think this clown is a real person.Good joke though : )Yours in freebooting asteroids,Geoff Notkin(Arnold
[meteorite-list] Treasure Hunters swinging their metal detectors in the face of viewers (voyeurs?)
You are a good boy, with your trans-generational repetition of momma'schildhood reassurances: "I know you're just jealous ." ... and one day, your children. Since I am a stupid bonehead, I seem to have misplaced my insults, if fact I am capable of conceiving of disparaging language (efficaciously, that is). Sarcasm should be sarcastic,not quite distinctly a pettysardonic mocking. You're too funny. Can't I be counter-ironic? Or were youdonning meta-irony? Perhaps you'll never know. Then you can be called an unconscious hypocrite. -Thaddeus BESEDINNotkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thaddeus wrote: EBay: you said it all. You'd sell human remains to the highest bidderif itwere legal.I was being sarcastic you stupid bonehead.You come off as a big sanctimonious idiot, blathering on about cultural heritage and the rest of it. What a load of nonsense! That's why I was having a lark with eBay references and so on -- making fun of your ridiculous posts.We're out there doing real meteorite work, not sitting on our wide backsides criticising others' actions from behind the keyboard. If the Travel Channel is interested enough in our work to do a documentary about it, so much the better.And I thought Sterling Webb was full of himself! Your incredibly tedious waffling almost makes him interesting. Honestly, nobody gives a shit about your blowhard opinions. Please go dig a deep hole and rub your face in the valuable "taxa" at the bottom of it.Thanks for the laughs.Geoff Notkin Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.__ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] info cairo address
Hi list , now i have some my friends in Cairo andthey wold baymeteorite there, so ifyou can help meplease send address of shure mineral/meteorite shopin Cairo. Many thanks at all. Paolo Condivi foto, pensieri ed altro ancora creando il tuo Blog su MSN Spaces. E' gratis! __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Hunters and recoverererers
What may seem random to you may not be so. A random arrowhead is typically only seen as isolated because people picking them up do not know that there is in fact a cultural diversity represented in stone tools and fragments ofprehistoric industry overlooked. These proximal objectshavelittle, if any,market value. Ifone has knowledge that this "random" projectile point is surrounded by copious debris, this would certainly soil the practice, would it not? What constitutesyour conception of an adequatedistancebetween isolates, that itself determines the identity of an isolate? Things are buried, but they'll live to see another day without your pocket for protection.I can see thatyour worldprovides unlocked vaults, dropped wallets,andunclaimed inheritances.Is itnot too much for onewho can find time to pick up artifacts tohave a GPS and a camera?Could
youobservemicroorganisms without a microscope? What does an arrowhead mean without awarenessandrecord of its context and the contexts of arrowheads?Is yoursense of self-regulationa law itself? What do you mean by "studied"? Don't you mean "mined"?Understand that you are an amateur for a reason.Just admit it: you are aprofiteer with no consistent,internalized scruple. Sure, I have stones, but I don't need a 20 kilo main mass sitting prominently ona shelf.I stopped buying over a year ago when I realized that I not only had enough material for years of personal research, but that my interest was detrimental to certain other areas of research, as well as peripheral sciences thatare affected because many suppliers espouseyour"treasure hunting" ethos and have expanded their horizons. You have to put your
foot down at some point. I should support the "cause" by collecting from your collection. It will just rot sitting there anyway. -thaddeus BesedinDave Freeman mjwy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.What have YOU done to preserve science? And, what do you have in your collection that you shouldn't have (meaning anything that wasn't correctly scientifically removed)? Exactly what are your credentials to be knowledgeable to whine..?It is very easy for those stoic office types to complain about those in the field doing the real WORK. Our western lands are not studied because the amateur is shut out by the scientific lobby in congress so the stuff just sits and gets eroded away by nature. In the CFR, under "artifacts" there is no
penalty for collecting random arrowheads on the surface of the ground. So, don't forget that. Don't forget that private land still is private, and what may be collected there is not controlled by blue footed boobies. Poo poo to all those that have an opinion but do nothing to support the cause. I am actually still surprised that anyone can own meteorites or artifacts of any kind with the few bone-heads-for-science that roam our country. There is nothing wrong with good science but letting things erode to nothing in the name of preservation is quite self serving for nothing.I will get of my soap box now. Mr. Dave and Mr. Jimgot me!DAve F.Thaddeus Besedin wrote:They should be recovered, but we should be aware of how our excavation impacts other deposits. I'll let this rest, guys. You
know my position by now. The same argument ("it will rot if I do nothing")is advanced by"relic" hunters whosearch rivers, but there is a major difference between surface hunting and excavation, and especially in the contexts of drainages and areas subject to mass wasting. to protect their "troves," looters typically do not disclose the provenances of their finds when offered for sale, if at all they have been conscientious enough torecord a GPS position.Such negligence is irresponsible, and proves that the motive for these activities is itself personal gain. Seriously, the prices that these meteorites yield would be betterdeserved if all sciences involved with the thin, fragilesurface of the earth are considered. This would be the attitude of a professional in any other invasive field. -Thaddeus New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
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