Re: [meteorite-list] Micromounts.

[Dave Freeman mjwy]

Good evening collectors large and small;
For those new to the list, those small tiny pieces are known as 
"Bessy-Specks" after the honorable Dean Bessy who first pioneered those 
affordably prices smaller denomination sizedwell, specks. A great 
way to add lunar or martian pieces to a budding collector's budget 
minded collection.until he finds a great big pallesite which 
would be called "Arnold's Luck" after the most honorable Steve Arnold 
(not of CHICAGO).

Best Wishes,
Dave  Freeman

Kirk Jenks wrote:


Hi All,
  I agreeI like putting together smaller pieces of the rare 
meteorites.because they look nice all together on display.and 
simply because its hard for me to afford the larger pieces. This 
way.I get a variety of many different types.some being 
extremely rare, like Lunar and Martian pieces!!
This is why I like the amounts that Adam Hupe usually offers.in 
this way, a "little fish" like me can still get some "HEAVYWEIGHT" 
pieces at an affordable price.where if the piece was much 
larger.I would not be able to afford them right now. Just my 2 
cents worth of chatter.

  Have a good weekend everyone!
  Best,
   
Kirk...

- Original Message - From: "E.P. Grondine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 9:04 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Micromounts; craters; SL9 impact movie



Hi all -

I few thoughts in the night.

On micromounts, I seem to rememeber that several years
ago someone had assembled a box set, with a wide
assortment of meteorites (about $400 at the time)...

I also remembered that Nininger produced a book which
had a canyon diablo in a plastic bubble...

I also remembered that Jensen scientific was selling a
collection for educational use...

So, why not a childrens' book, which has cheap
examples of the three common types packaged in bubbles
attached to the pages?  Kind of like a "Rocks From
Space" Jr. edition - a basic primer.  Think of all the
aggravation a book like this would save you when those
kids became adults.

Second,would someone put together an internet list of
craters with with Google Earth/ and or Microsoft Earth
links? add age, and leave a column for impactor type,
which you can fill in with "unknown" for most of them
right now.

Finally, where is a movie showing the impacts of all
of the fragments of SL9 with Jupiter?  While we have
movies or images of each impact, they've never been
combined. No one has remapped the colors and re-sized
them.  Simulated natural color would be nice.

good hunting,
Ed










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[meteorite-list] Re: Moss Meteorite - The uncut story...

[Robert Verish]

Hello Mike Mazur,

Wanted to personally thank you for your informative
posts.  

You were the first to post to the List, last month,
asking if anybody knew what were the laws related to
finding meteorites in Norway.  When you never got an
answer to your question, you went out and searched for
the answers. (Actually, there were some posts by
people who only guessed at what was the Law, but they
only succeeded in muddying the issue.)

Your decision to donate is an honorable one. 
Although, I doubt that it will change the minds or
opinions of museum directors, at least you can always
say that you did your part.

Now, I have one last question:

You already explained to the List how you and Bjorn
came into possession of your "fragments" from the Moss
fall:  



"... As luck would have it, I received a tip which
actually turned out to be good! We investigated and
found that a reasonable sized part rock ***had been
recovered*** to the NW of the Johansen stone. Further
searching of the area turned up many more fragments
from a gram or two in size up to about 500g." 

So, my question is, who was the original finder, or
will this finder remain anonymous?

Again, congratulations on a job well-done,
Bob V.

-- Original Message

[meteorite-list] Moss Meteorite - The uncut story...
Michael Mazur mjmazur at gmail.com
Thu Aug 17 02:08:04 EDT 2006




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[meteorite-list] Test Delete

[Adam Hupe]

Just a test, I am not getting posts.

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Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All

[Darren Garrison]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 20:37:34 -0700, you wrote:

>history community. These are people who know the issues, who know the science 
>(the words and concepts are far from arbitrary), 

I realized something tonight that I knew but for some reason, it hadn't stuck me
before: the word "pluton" already has a use in science.  It is a "Body of magma
which has solidified beneath the earth".  I've been on a few of them, and can
even see one from my house when I find the right gap between the trees (this
one: http://www.shutterfreaks.com/gallery/album152/DSC_4055, photo not mine).

So it makes me wonder-- does one field of science try to avoid reusing a term
with an established specific meaning in another field of science (and would some
far future geologist be looking for plutons on Plutons?)
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Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All

[Larry Lebofsky]

Hi Doug:

I never thought that I would admit to agreeing completely with Sterling (just 
kidding), but I am.

I have googled Kripke's credentials and I do not see how he would add anything 
to the committee. As I said before and I will say again, a lot of thought went 
into the formation of this committee from both the astronomical and astronomy 
history community. These are people who know the issues, who know the science 
(the words and concepts are far from arbitrary), and who, in general, did not 
come in with an agenda which was a problem with the first committee. This is 
not a linguistic issue, it is a science issue as to how one draws the line 
between planets and (whatever you want to call something smaller than a 
planet). It has implications with respect to the origin and evolution of our 
Solar System and other stellar systems.

Larry

Quoting MexicoDoug <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Hi Sterling, you really don't have to disagree with me because you have
> edited an old message of mine to the point of completely changing its
> meaning - with a new meaning I disagree with as well..
> 
> Here's what I said: "The IAU Committee has utterly failed by not including a
> committee
> member of the class and stature of Saul Kripke.  Historians and
> Astronomers...but how about including someone with real experience and
> credentials in aprioricity who has danced with the likes of Kant (and
> usually held his own).  I trust they will remedy this, as good scientists
> not concerned about who shares their turf..."
> 
> Here's what you say I said:
> > Mexico Doug said:
> > > The IAU Committee has utterly failed
> > > by not including... Historians...
> > > but how about including someone
> > > with real experience and credentials
> 
> I have no doubt that Owen Gingerich isn't the great historian you researched
> him to be and don't wish you to cut and paste my words erroneously to think
> I would have a different conclusion.  However, you have edited my post to
> appear that I don't recognize the quality of the historians on the
> "Committee".  Read it.  I am recognizing the committee has good astronomers
> and historians!!!
> 
> A more valid question is why is this committee needed, not taking for
> granted that it is a needed committee.  And if you Google Saul Kripke you
> will find his forte isn't really history at all, but rather he is the
> closest living example we have today of a Nobel laureate
> Philosopher-linguist whose specialty is this tyope of issue, and when words
> and concepts are arbitrary and when they are a priori - and when change is
> in order and when not, I would hastily suppose as well.
> 
> Best wishes, Doug
> 
> __
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> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> 


-- 
Dr. Larry A. Lebofsky
Senior Research Scientist
Co-editor, Meteorite  "If you give a man a fish,   
Lunar and Planetary Laboratory   you feed him for a day.
1541 East University   If you teach a man to fish,
University of Arizonayou feed him for a lifetime."
Tucson, AZ 85721-0063 ~Chinese Proverb
Phone:  520-621-6947
FAX:520-621-8364
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All

[Larry Lebofsky]

As long as Rob Britt quotes me correctly and not out of context, I am happy to 
be "worked" by him.

By the way, there are a good number of "real" astronomers who are making very 
strong comments about this resolution. I am not sure that I have ever seen so 
many egos coming out (I trust me and thee and I am not sure about thee).

Almost everything that is being proposed has been said before, but now that 
there is a vote in the works, it is all coming to a head (my idea is better 
than yours). 

Larry


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Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All

[Sterling K. Webb]

Hi, E.P.

   I can go with "lively"! It is a very "real" controversy.


Ah hah - we get to the root of the problem - you're
JEALOUS of Britt!


   Yes, I threw in that remark to expose my own baser motives.
Since I've talking about everybody else's ulterior motives, it's
only fair I print an "expose" of my own petty biases...


Sterling K. Webb
-
- Original Message - 
From: "E.P. Grondine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Meteorite Mailing List" 
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All


Hi all - 


Sterling, I want to arise in defense of Rob Roy Britt.


--- "Sterling K. Webb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:


Second: you'll notice that much of the
"coverage" of the planet definition controversy is 
coming out of Space.com. In searching up articles, I

have become aware that Space.com and particularly

Mr. > Britt, who's doing most of their pieces, have

adopted a tabloid-esque approach. They're trying to
boost "circulation," so to speak. 


That's the reporter's job, Sterling: boost circulation
= get an an audience with reportage.


Encouraging controversy and then getting people
to then react to it is an old trick of the yellow
rag. Of course, the controversy is REAL, 


Yes, as you can see by reading the meteorite list
messages, this controversy is REAL, and was not
created by Britt. 


but what tone it has is another matter.
In one piece discussing the "double planet"
concept, Britt uses a phrase about them having that

"barycenter thing going." Hey! Making bad slangy jokes
about science is my job! I doubt the working
astronomers are talking about it that way. Maybe...

Ah hah - we get to the root of the problem - you're
JEALOUS of Britt!

Well, Sterling, not every story is as good as this
one, and the pay is lousy, frankly.  Britt recognized
a good story early on, lined up his contacts, works
them, and writes good copy that people read.

I think that's what a journalist does. Just because
the story is sensational and he got there first does
not allow you to accuse Britt of being a
"sensationalist".  We prefer the word "lively".

good hunting,
Ed




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Re: [meteorite-list] Micromounts; craters; SL9 impact movie

[Darren Garrison]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 19:04:01 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>Second,would someone put together an internet list of
>craters with with Google Earth/ and or Microsoft Earth
>links? add age, and leave a column for impactor type,
>which you can fill in with "unknown" for most of them
>right now.

Here's a start:

http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showthreaded.php?Number=7

http://www.googleearthhacks.com/dlcat34/Craters.htm

http://www.gearthblog.com/blog/archives/2005/10/meteor_craters.html


>
>Finally, where is a movie showing the impacts of all
>of the fragments of SL9 with Jupiter?  While we have
>movies or images of each impact, they've never been
>combined. No one has remapped the colors and re-sized
>them.  Simulated natural color would be nice.  

Here's a simulation of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHr8A2f2T5Y
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Re: [meteorite-list] Micromounts.

[Kirk Jenks]

Hi All,
  I agreeI like putting together smaller pieces of the rare 
meteorites.because they look nice all together on display.and simply 
because its hard for me to afford the larger pieces. This way.I get a 
variety of many different types.some being extremely rare, like Lunar 
and Martian pieces!!
This is why I like the amounts that Adam Hupe usually offers.in this 
way, a "little fish" like me can still get some "HEAVYWEIGHT" pieces at an 
affordable price.where if the piece was much larger.I would not be 
able to afford them right now. Just my 2 cents worth of chatter.

  Have a good weekend everyone!
  Best,
   
Kirk...
- Original Message - 
From: "E.P. Grondine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 9:04 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Micromounts; craters; SL9 impact movie



Hi all -

I few thoughts in the night.

On micromounts, I seem to rememeber that several years
ago someone had assembled a box set, with a wide
assortment of meteorites (about $400 at the time)...

I also remembered that Nininger produced a book which
had a canyon diablo in a plastic bubble...

I also remembered that Jensen scientific was selling a
collection for educational use...

So, why not a childrens' book, which has cheap
examples of the three common types packaged in bubbles
attached to the pages?  Kind of like a "Rocks From
Space" Jr. edition - a basic primer.  Think of all the
aggravation a book like this would save you when those
kids became adults.

Second,would someone put together an internet list of
craters with with Google Earth/ and or Microsoft Earth
links? add age, and leave a column for impactor type,
which you can fill in with "unknown" for most of them
right now.

Finally, where is a movie showing the impacts of all
of the fragments of SL9 with Jupiter?  While we have
movies or images of each impact, they've never been
combined. No one has remapped the colors and re-sized
them.  Simulated natural color would be nice.

good hunting,
Ed










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[meteorite-list] Micromounts; craters; SL9 impact movie

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi all - 

I few thoughts in the night.

On micromounts, I seem to rememeber that several years
ago someone had assembled a box set, with a wide
assortment of meteorites (about $400 at the time)...

I also remembered that Nininger produced a book which
had a canyon diablo in a plastic bubble...

I also remembered that Jensen scientific was selling a
collection for educational use... 

So, why not a childrens' book, which has cheap
examples of the three common types packaged in bubbles
attached to the pages?  Kind of like a "Rocks From
Space" Jr. edition - a basic primer.  Think of all the
aggravation a book like this would save you when those
kids became adults.  

Second,would someone put together an internet list of
craters with with Google Earth/ and or Microsoft Earth
links? add age, and leave a column for impactor type,
which you can fill in with "unknown" for most of them
right now.

Finally, where is a movie showing the impacts of all
of the fragments of SL9 with Jupiter?  While we have
movies or images of each impact, they've never been
combined. No one has remapped the colors and re-sized
them.  Simulated natural color would be nice.  

good hunting,
Ed










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Re: [meteorite-list] Re: The Denver Show

[Impactika]

In a message dated 8/18/2006 7:51:51 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Anne posted:

> Will you  help?:-)

Well, I think Fred Hall and Mike Jensen  had to hold me back during the 
'05 show  : )


> I had a  nice conversation with him, and he promised that everything 
>  would
> perfect, that we could have anything we wanted.

That's what  he said last year!

For those of you who don't get what we're talking  about:

Anyone who has been to a COMETS event in Denver knows how well  
organized they are. Last year we did the Katrina Charity Raffle in  
conjunction with the COMETS annual dinner party at La Loma. The manager  
goofed and forgot to reserve the back room for us, so a large part of  
the meteorite community was left sitting around La Loma's bar for 
hours,  while they tried to clear out the room that the COMETS had 
specially  reserved. The cheapskate manager didn't even offer us free  
drinks!

Anne gave the guy a severe telling off and that was fun to  watch. 
Hopefully he'll get it right this year.

Anyway, the party is a  great time, and the auction, and you should not 
miss either. And remember,  only ONE of those big margaritas per person 
please   :  )


Geoff  N.
www.aerolite.org
__

Thank Geoff for setting the record straight!
 
Apparently you didn't complaint loud enough, I know a few people who got  
free drinks.  ;-)
(No, not me, I was a designated driver and in charge of finances!)
 

Anne M. Black
www.IMPACTIKA.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
President,  I.M.C.A. Inc.
www.IMCA.cc
 
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[meteorite-list] Re: The Denver Show

[Notkin]

Anne posted:


Will you help?:-)


Well, I think Fred Hall and Mike Jensen had to hold me back during the 
'05 show  : )



I had a nice conversation with him, and he promised that everything 
would

perfect, that we could have anything we wanted.


That's what he said last year!

For those of you who don't get what we're talking about:

Anyone who has been to a COMETS event in Denver knows how well 
organized they are. Last year we did the Katrina Charity Raffle in 
conjunction with the COMETS annual dinner party at La Loma. The manager 
goofed and forgot to reserve the back room for us, so a large part of 
the meteorite community was left sitting around La Loma's bar for 
hours, while they tried to clear out the room that the COMETS had 
specially reserved. The cheapskate manager didn't even offer us free 
drinks!


Anne gave the guy a severe telling off and that was fun to watch. 
Hopefully he'll get it right this year.


Anyway, the party is a great time, and the auction, and you should not 
miss either. And remember, only ONE of those big margaritas per person 
please   : )



Geoff N.
www.aerolite.org

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Re: [meteorite-list] Re: The Denver Show

[batkol]

it was fun to watch . . . : )

susan

- Original Message - 
From: "Notkin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Meteorite List" 
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 8:05 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Re: The Denver Show



Anne posted:


The Denver Show is less than a month away



Dear Anne:

Are you going to beat up the manager of La Loma restaurant again this 
year? That was definitely the highlight of the 2005 show  : )



Geoff N.
www.aerolite.org

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Re: [meteorite-list] Re: The Denver Show

[Impactika]

In a message dated 8/18/2006 7:06:12 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Anne posted:

> The Denver Show is less  than a month away


Dear Anne:

Are you going to beat up the  manager of La Loma restaurant again this 
year? That was definitely the  highlight of the 2005 show  : )


Geoff  N.
www.aerolite.org

__

Will  you help?:-)
 
I had a nice conversation with him, and he promised that everything would  
perfect, that we could have anything we wanted.
I think he remembers well the problems we had last time, and that he did  
cost him a bunch of money.


Anne M.  Black
www.IMPACTIKA.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
President, I.M.C.A.  Inc.
www.IMCA.cc
 
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Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi all - 

Sterling, I want to arise in defense of Rob Roy Britt.
 

--- "Sterling K. Webb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Second: you'll notice that much of the
> "coverage" of the planet definition controversy is 
> coming out of Space.com. In searching up articles, I
> have become aware that Space.com and particularly
Mr. > Britt, who's doing most of their pieces, have
> adopted a tabloid-esque approach. They're trying to
> boost "circulation," so to speak. 

That's the reporter's job, Sterling: boost circulation
= get an an audience with reportage.

> Encouraging controversy and then getting people
> to then react to it is an old trick of the yellow
> rag. Of course, the controversy is REAL, 

Yes, as you can see by reading the meteorite list
messages, this controversy is REAL, and was not
created by Britt. 

> but what tone it has is another matter.
> In one piece discussing the "double planet"
> concept, Britt uses a phrase about them having that
"barycenter thing going." Hey! Making bad slangy jokes
about science is my job! I doubt the working
astronomers are talking about it that way. Maybe...

Ah hah - we get to the root of the problem - you're
JEALOUS of Britt!

Well, Sterling, not every story is as good as this
one, and the pay is lousy, frankly.  Britt recognized
a good story early on, lined up his contacts, works
them, and writes good copy that people read.

I think that's what a journalist does. Just because
the story is sensational and he got there first does
not allow you to accuse Britt of being a
"sensationalist".  We prefer the word "lively".

good hunting,
Ed

> 
> When I found that Proposal V exists only in
> press releases
> from the IAU and not in their schedule, I commented
> that they
> are obviously "flying by the seat of their pants" on
> this one.
> This is a very fluid situation. "The IAU has the
> authority to
> handle the debate however it wishes. It could either
> amend the
> existing proposal or adopt the competing proposal.
> The ultimate
> plan is to put something before the IAU membership
> for a vote
> on Thursday, Aug. 24." Gingerich said the Executive
> Committee
> "will undoubtedly come before the membership with a
> single
> resolution. They may make some adjustments."
> 
> In other words, the present proposal we're all
> arguing about
> has been "floated," as the politicians call the
> process. Say you're
> going to do such-and-such and see how people react
> to it. Then,
> change it to reflect what people will accept.
> 
> It will be hard to do that here. This is
> science, not party politics.
> And, the division seems to be about even. WHATEVER
> you do
> will upset about half of the constituents. Another
> possibility is that
> the proposal will pass narrowly for no other reason
> than the fact
> that astronomers are very uncomfortable with this
> present chaotic
> situation.
> 
> A parent can take their child to a museum this
> Sunday where
> there are EIGHT planets, then next Sunday to a
> museum where
> there are NINE planets, and then your kid says,
> "Nah, there are
> TWELVE planets; I read it on the Internet."
> 
> Let's face it: the natural inclination of the
> Executive Committee
> is to postpone. They'll already done that... twice.
> And the situation
> didn't go away; it got worse. But, rather than
> institutionalize the
> division, they may want not to have any vote. But
> Gingerich seems
> to think there will be some vote (and he would know,
> I think).
> 
> 
> Sterling K. Webb
>
--
> - Original Message - 
> From: "MexicoDoug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Ron Baalke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> "Meteorite Mailing List" 
> 
> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 12:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted
> After All
> 
> 
> >"> and the Charon aspect specifically for going too
> far in essentially
> >> recasting too many small round objects as
> full-fledged planets.
> > Eventually,
> >> with new discoveries, there would likely be
> hundreds."
> >
> > Hello Again, The Charon and the "rotating around
> center of mass outside 
> > the
> > larger body (Pluto in this case)" criterion aspect
> is very unwieldy for 
> > me.
> > If a soccer ball, or other object which could have
> melted and rounded 
> > itself
> > (or even rubble-pile modeled asteroids) gets into
> a meta stable orbit 
> > around
> > the center of mass of the multi-body system in the
> appropriate conditions,
> > it will become a planet for the moments it rotates
> outside the other 
> > members
> > crust.  And more interestingly, if the orbit is of
> high enough 
> > eccentricity,
> > the center of mass will vary inside and outside
> the major body.  I guess 
> > the
> > simple solution would be to refine the definition
> for convenience to say
> > that all bodies are compared as if they orbited
> the major body of the 
> > system
> > at "X" distance, etc.  But this innocent 

[meteorite-list] Re: The Denver Show

[Notkin]

Anne posted:


The Denver Show is less than a month away



Dear Anne:

Are you going to beat up the manager of La Loma restaurant again this 
year? That was definitely the highlight of the 2005 show  : )



Geoff N.
www.aerolite.org

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[meteorite-list] The Denver Show

[Impactika]

Hello everybody,

I finally got it done!

The Denver Show is  less than a month away, and I finally posted a page about 
it on my website, go  look: http://www.impactika.com/shownews.htm

There are  several links on that page, they will take you to additional pages 
with maps and  details regarding the Auction and the Party.  If you are 
coming to Denver,  please go take a look. And if you are not, you still have 
time 
to change your  mind!   

This year I decided to publish  a list of items entered in the Auction, so a 
week or 2 ago I asked everybody for  their lists. I got very few answers, but 
they were very good answers. Go look at  the Auction Catalog, you will see 
what I mean. And now I will be expecting a  whole lot more responses. And of 
course I will add them to the Auction Catalog  as quickly as possible.  Thanks.

Of course, if you have additional  questions about the Show, just send me an 
email.
See you all very soon.


Anne M.  Black
www.IMPACTIKA.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
President, I.M.C.A.  Inc.
www.IMCA.cc
 
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[meteorite-list] Pluto May Yet Lose Planet Status

[Ron Baalke]

http://www.newscientistspace.com/article/dn9797-pluto-may-yet-lose-planet-status.html

Pluto may yet lose planet status
Stephen Battersby
New Scientist
18 August 2006

We were about to gain a horde of new planets; now we might lose one
instead.

In Prague, astronomers are trying to define what it means to be a
planet. A draft definition released on Wednesday would have extended the
club from the conventional nine to twelve, and soon to many more (see
Three new planets may join solar system
).

But on Friday, astronomers at the meeting suggested a different scheme -
one that would instead relegate Pluto to the status of "dwarf planet".

Wednesday's original proposal was made by the International Astronomical
Union's official planet definition committee (read the IAU's proposed
definitions of a planet, a pluton and other objects
). Their suggestion was
to include any round object that independently orbits the Sun -
including Ceres (formerly considered an asteroid), Pluto's companion
Charon, and the distant body currently known as Xena.

Largest body

On Friday, another definition, put forward by a group led by Julio
Fernandez of the University of the Republic in Montevideo, Uruguay,
received some support. It includes the clause that a planet also has to
be "by far the largest body in its local population".

So Pluto would be out, because the 2300-kilometre-wide body is similar
in size to many other objects in the same region, the chilly Kuiper Belt
beyond Neptune. There would be only eight planets in the solar system,
unless someone finds another really big one out there somewhere.

Some scientists had qualms about the sheer number of planets in the
original scheme. Many of the icy objects in the Kuiper Belt are probably
round, so we would soon end up with dozens of planets. Eventually there
could be 200, according to Caltech astronomer Mike Brown, who has
discovered several of these objects.

Many would be very small, less than 500 kilometres across. And depending
on how strict the definition of roundness is, the proposed scheme could
even admit tiny bodies such as 2002BM26. This near-Earth asteroid is
nearly round, despite being less than a kilometre across - probably
because it is a loose, weak agglomeration of rubble.

Making a planet of Charon opens up other problems. By Wednesday's
proposal, Charon would be a planet rather than a satellite because the
mutual centre of gravity of Pluto and Charon is out in space between the
two bodies.

Absurd debate

The same could one day be true of our Moon, which is slowly receding
from the Earth - so in a few billion years, the two would become twin
planets. Odder still, we might one day find an object that constantly
switches back and forth from planet to satellite as it moves around a
highly elongated orbit.

The new definition dispenses with those problems by insisting that
planets must be the dominant bodies in their neighbourhoods. The idea
behind it is that real planets form by sweeping up debris in a broad
zone around their orbit. Pluto, Ceres and the rest are merely debris
that were never swept up.

But today's rival proposal could also have snags. For example, what
exactly is meant by "by far the largest"?

At this point, opinion seems to be split over which way to go, and next
week's vote could be close.

"I think the whole debate is absurd," says Richard Conn Henry, an
astronomer at Johns Hopkins University in Maryland, US.

"The fact (in my opinion) that Pluto is in a different class from the
eight planets does not make it less interesting," he told New Scientist.
"It is a fascinating object."

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[meteorite-list] Thanks Mike

[Meteorite Game]

Thanks Mike for your comment and adventures:)     Cordially,     Rick __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __
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Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All

[MexicoDoug]

Darren wrote: "BBC interview with the woman/former girl who named Pluto that
I ran across."

Doug had written: "further I trust you.  If you happen to have the British
"girl's" email address sure I'll send a message to further vindicate you and
Darren."

Hi Darren, if the woman formerly known as the girl who named (the body
formally known as planet) Pluto says she is "vindicated" that the reputed
Dog never existed and was invented afterwards in response to the press
attention, that is more than enough for me.  Nice bit of Nakhlaesque
history.  Bless her wisdom and fantastic attitude.  Too bad smiling Walter
Disney isn't still around to chat with, just the spoils of his great talent,
incorporated :-(

Best, Doug, and Dead dogs to rest...(and adding some better insulation in my
own headspace thanks Sterling for the clarification)

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Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All

[Sterling K. Webb]

Hi, Doug, List


   I apologize. I did not take your meaning correctly. I mis-read it
to suggest the absence of historians when you were characterizing
them as members and suggesting the addition of another relevant
field.
   Excuse me now, while I remove the upper cover seals from
my brain case and look for short circuits...


Sterling K. Webb

- Original Message - 
From: "MexicoDoug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Sterling K. Webb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Meteorite Mailing 
List" 

Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All



Hi Sterling, you really don't have to disagree with me because you have
edited an old message of mine to the point of completely changing its
meaning - with a new meaning I disagree with as well..

Here's what I said: "The IAU Committee has utterly failed by not including 
a

committee
member of the class and stature of Saul Kripke.  Historians and
Astronomers...but how about including someone with real experience and
credentials in aprioricity who has danced with the likes of Kant (and
usually held his own).  I trust they will remedy this, as good scientists
not concerned about who shares their turf..."

Here's what you say I said:

Mexico Doug said:
> The IAU Committee has utterly failed
> by not including... Historians...
> but how about including someone
> with real experience and credentials


I have no doubt that Owen Gingerich isn't the great historian you 
researched
him to be and don't wish you to cut and paste my words erroneously to 
think

I would have a different conclusion.  However, you have edited my post to
appear that I don't recognize the quality of the historians on the
"Committee".  Read it.  I am recognizing the committee has good 
astronomers

and historians!!!

A more valid question is why is this committee needed, not taking for
granted that it is a needed committee.  And if you Google Saul Kripke you
will find his forte isn't really history at all, but rather he is the
closest living example we have today of a Nobel laureate
Philosopher-linguist whose specialty is this tyope of issue, and when 
words

and concepts are arbitrary and when they are a priori - and when change is
in order and when not, I would hastily suppose as well.

Best wishes, Doug





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Re: [meteorite-list] Solar System in Perspective

[Sterling K. Webb]

Hi, Pete,


   I second those thanks!

   These are new pages for the IAU site. They weren't
there in the wee morning hours before last when I was trying
to find a mention of Proposal V on the website -- there weren't
NONE!

   About 2003EL61, Darren. Despite the "iceball" myth about
KBO's, 2003EL61 is SOLID ROCK. The density is way too high
to be anything else. It doesn't even seem to have any superficial
surface volatiles. "It don't snow on Santa." Isn't that a C&W
song?

   But with a four hour rotation, er, axial revolution, period, this
massive object is far from round. I haven't (can't) calculate the
degree of strain in the body of the planet, but it must stupendous!

   Big question is: is it "frozen in" and dating from its formation,
or is it a dynamic distortion. I don't know the shear modulus, or
modulus of rigidity, of 2003EL61 or any planet, and I doubt that
anybody does...

   "Santa" is in the Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_EL61
   Here's a big image, er, artist's conception:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:2003EL61art.jpg

   In fact, the Wikipedia has very good entries on all
the "KBO" crowd...


Sterling K. Webb
-
- Original Message - 
From: "Pete Pete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 2:36 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Solar System in Perspective



Apologies, if this link was posted previously.

Some nice, high resolution graphics and a video fly-by, relative to the 
on-going debate/discussion...


http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_release.html
http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_release.html

Cheers,
Pete

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Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All

[MexicoDoug]

Hi Sterling, you really don't have to disagree with me because you have
edited an old message of mine to the point of completely changing its
meaning - with a new meaning I disagree with as well..

Here's what I said: "The IAU Committee has utterly failed by not including a
committee
member of the class and stature of Saul Kripke.  Historians and
Astronomers...but how about including someone with real experience and
credentials in aprioricity who has danced with the likes of Kant (and
usually held his own).  I trust they will remedy this, as good scientists
not concerned about who shares their turf..."

Here's what you say I said:
> Mexico Doug said:
> > The IAU Committee has utterly failed
> > by not including... Historians...
> > but how about including someone
> > with real experience and credentials

I have no doubt that Owen Gingerich isn't the great historian you researched
him to be and don't wish you to cut and paste my words erroneously to think
I would have a different conclusion.  However, you have edited my post to
appear that I don't recognize the quality of the historians on the
"Committee".  Read it.  I am recognizing the committee has good astronomers
and historians!!!

A more valid question is why is this committee needed, not taking for
granted that it is a needed committee.  And if you Google Saul Kripke you
will find his forte isn't really history at all, but rather he is the
closest living example we have today of a Nobel laureate
Philosopher-linguist whose specialty is this tyope of issue, and when words
and concepts are arbitrary and when they are a priori - and when change is
in order and when not, I would hastily suppose as well.

Best wishes, Doug

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[meteorite-list] SMART-1 On The Trail Of The Moon's Beginnings

[Ron Baalke]

http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEM1RHBUQPE_index_0.html

SMART-1 on the trail of the Moon's beginnings
European Space Agency 
18 August 2006

The D-CIXS instrument on ESA's Moon mission SMART-1 has produced the
first detection from orbit of calcium on the lunar surface. By doing
this, the instrument has taken a step towards answering the old
question: did the Moon form from part of the Earth?
 
Scientists responsible for the D-CIXS instrument on SMART-1 are also
announcing that they have detected aluminium, magnesium and silicon. "We
have good maps of iron across the lunar surface. Now we can look forward
to making maps of the other elements," says Manuel Grande of the
University of Wales, Aberystwyth UK, and D-CIXS' Principal Investigator.

Knowing how to translate the D-CIXS orbital data into "ground truth" has
been helped by a cosmic coincidence. On 9 August 1976, the Russian
spacecraft Luna 24 was launched. On 18 August it touched down in a
region of the Moon known as Mare Crisium and returned a sample of the
lunar soil to Earth.

In January 2005, SMART-1 was high above Mare Crisium when a giant
explosion took place on the Sun. Scientists often dread these storms
because they can damage spacecraft but, for the scientists responsible
for D-CIXS, it was just what they needed.

The D-CIXS instrument depends on X-ray emission from the Sun to excite
elements on the lunar surface, which then emit X-rays at characteristic
wavelengths. D-CIXS collects these X-ray fingerprints and translates
them into the abundance of each chemical element found on the surface of
the Moon. Grande and his colleagues could relate the D-CIXS Mare Crisium
results to the laboratory analysis of the Russian lunar samples.

They found that the calcium detected from orbit was in agreement with
that found by Luna 24 on the surface of Mare Crisium. As SMART-1 flew
on, it swept D-CIXS over the nearby highland regions. Calcium showed up
here too, which was a surprise until the scientists looked at the data
from another Russian moon mission, Luna 20. That lander had also found
calcium back in the 1970s. This boosted the scientists' confidence in
the D-CIXS results.

A shocking birth for the Moon?

Ever since American astronauts brought back samples of moonrock during
the Apollo Moon landings of the late 1960s/early 1970s, planetary
scientists have been struck by the broad similarity of the moonrocks and
the rocks found deep in the Earth, in a region known as the mantle. This
boosted the theory that the Moon formed from debris left over after the
Earth was struck a glancing blow by a Mars-sized planet.

However, the more scientists looked at the details of the moonrock, the
more discrepancies they found between them and the earthrocks. Most
importantly, the isotopes found in the moonrocks did not agree with
those found on Earth.

"The get-out clause is that the rocks returned by the Apollo missions
represent only highly specific areas on the lunar surface and so may not
be representative of the lunar surface in its entirety," says Grande;
hence the need for D-CIXS and its data.

By measuring the abundance of several elements across the lunar surface,
scientists can better constrain the contribution of material from the
young Earth and its possible impactor to condense and form the Moon.
Current models suggest that more came from the impactor than from Earth.
Models of the Moon's evolution and interior structure are necessary to
translate the surface measurements into the Moon's bulk composition.

D-CIXS was a small experimental device, only about the size of a
toaster. ESA is now collaborating with India to fly an upgraded version
on the Indian lunar probe Chandrayaan, due for launch in 2007-2008. It
will map the chemistry of the lunar surface, including the other landing
sites from where samples have been brought back to Earth. In this way it
will show whether the Apollo and Russian landing sites were typical or
special.

"From SMART-1 observations of previous landing sites we can compare
orbital observations to the ground truth and expand from the local to
global views of the Moon," says Bernard Foing, Project Scientist for
SMART-1.

Then, perhaps planetary scientists can decide whether the Moon was
indeed once part of the Earth.

 
 
Note to editors
 
The findings will appear in the Planetary and Space Science journal, in
an article titled: "The D-CIXS X-ray spectrometer on the SMART-1 mission
to the Moon – First Results", by M.Grande et al.
 
 
For more information
 
Manuel Grande, D-CIXS Principal Investigator, University of Wales,
Aberystwyth, UK
Email: m.grande @ rl.ac.uk

Bernard Foing, ESA SMART-1 Project scientist
Email: bernard.foing @ esa.int

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[meteorite-list] Mars Exploration Rovers Update - August 18, 2006

[Ron Baalke]

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/status.html

SPIRIT UPDATE: Spirit Checking 'Korolev' - sol 929-932, August 18, 2006:

Spirit is healthy and continues to make progress on its winter science
campaign.

Spirit is finishing the "McMurdo mega-panorama" by acquiring touch-up
images (dubbed "grout" by engineers). Spirit is nearly complete with the
coverage of the ground around the rover.

Spirit continues making a series of atmospheric observations at the same
time each day.

Spirit is collecting about 280 watt-hours of electrical power each sol
from the rover's solar array (100 watt-hours is the amount of
electricity needed to light one 100-watt bulb for one hour).

Sol-by-sol summaries:

Sol 929 (Aug. 14, 2006): Spirit studied a target called "Halley Brunt"
with the panoramic camera and microscopic imager.

Sol 930: Spirit took a tau measurement, an observation during which the
rover evaluates atmospheric opacity to estimate dust height.

Sol 931: Spirit took pictures with the panoramic camera of targets named
"Korolev" and "McMurdo grout 10." Spirit also used the panoramic camera
to take a tau measurement.

Sol 932 (Aug. 17, 2006): Spirit took a tau measurement with the
panoramic camera, surveyed the sky and ground with the miniature thermal
emission spectrometer, and took measurements of a target named
"Vernadsky" along with a background stare with the miniature thermal
emission spectrometer.

Odometry:

As of sol 932 (Aug. 17, 2006), Spirit's total odometry remained at
6,876.18 meters (4.27 miles).



OPPORTUNITY UPDATE: Opportunity Observes 'Isabela' - sol 907-912, 
August 18, 2006:

Opportunity is healthy and on the road to "Victoria Crater." Spirit
drove 35.67 meters (117 feet) from "Beagle Crater" to a small sand dune,
or ripple, to examine the dune with the robotic arm. The ripple study
included observations with the microscopic imager, two alpha particle
X-ray spectrometer integrations, and two observations with the miniature
thermal emission spectrometer.

Sol-by-sol summaries:

Sol 907 (Aug. 12, 2006): Opportunity drove 31.4 meters (103 feet) away
from Beagle Crater toward a ripple.

Sol 908: Opportunity performed a navigation camera experiment and made
observations with the miniature thermal emission spectrometer.

Sol 909: Opportunity drove 4.27 meters (14 feet) and used the robotic
arm on the ripple. It also took images with the panoramic camera,
navigation camera and hazard-avoidance cameras.

Sol 910: Opportunity took pictures of targets informally named "Isabela"
and "Marchena" with the microscopic imager. The rover also took
measurements of Marchena with the alpha particle X-ray spectrometer.

Sol 911: Opportunity moved the robotic arm out of the way and took
pictures of the area where it would later use the alpha particle X-ray
spectrometer. Opportunity made observations of targets informally named
"Pinzon" and "Pinta" with the miniature thermal emission spectrometer.
Opportunity did a reading of Isabela with the alpha particle X-ray
spectrometer after the Odyssey communications pass.

Sol 912 (Aug. 17, 2006): The plan is for Opportunity to stow the robotic
arm and drive toward Victoria Crater at a heading of 163 degrees.

Odometry:

As of sol 911 (Aug. 16, 2006), Opportunity's total odometry was 8723.38
meters (5.42 miles).

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Re: [meteorite-list] Solar System in Perspective

[Larry Lebofsky]

I think EL 61 rotates fairly rapidly and it is thought that this shape was 
frozen in when it was formed. This is where the actual defining of a planet 
gets a little fuzzy and where I start having problems with, if not the 
definition, how do you determine what is and what is not a planet.

The definition is not perfect, but this and how it is implemented are things 
that can be worked out.

Larry

Quoting Darren Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:36:14 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> >Apologies, if this link was posted previously.
> >
> >Some nice, high resolution graphics and a video fly-by, relative to the 
> >on-going debate/discussion...
> >
> >http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_release.html
> 
> Thanks for supplying these.  I've seen thumbnail sized copies of them
> included
> in news stories before and did a little digging looking for the full images,
> but
> wasn't successful.  This image kind of confuses me, though:
> 
> http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/screen/iau0601c.jpg
> 
> It shows 2003 EL61 as highly distorted in shape, but shows it as a "planet
> candidate", but by their own proposal it wouldn't be concidered a planet if
> it
> had that non-hydrostatic equilibrium shape.
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-- 
Dr. Larry A. Lebofsky
Senior Research Scientist
Co-editor, Meteorite  "If you give a man a fish,   
Lunar and Planetary Laboratory   you feed him for a day.
1541 East University   If you teach a man to fish,
University of Arizonayou feed him for a lifetime."
Tucson, AZ 85721-0063 ~Chinese Proverb
Phone:  520-621-6947
FAX:520-621-8364
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[meteorite-list] Test Delete

[Bob Evans]

Test
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Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All

[Sterling K. Webb]

Hi, All,


   Mexico Doug said:

The IAU Committee has utterly failed
by not including... Historians...
but how about including someone
with real experience and credentials


   And I've got to disagree. They appointed Owen Gingerich
to head this committee for that very reason. There is no more
knowledgeable historian of astronomy than he. It's like they got
somebody who had lunch with Kepler yesterday...
   I'm not going to write his press release here; Google him.
   I will point out that another sound "political" reason for
appointing him: his own specialty as an astronomer is...
The Sun, so he has no biases for any particular population
of planets.

   Second: you'll notice that much of the "coverage" of the
planet definition controversy is coming out of Space.com. In
searching up articles, I have become aware that Space.com
and particularly Mr. Britt, who's doing most of their pieces, have
adopted a tabloid-esque approach. They're trying to boost "circulation,"
so to speak. Encouraging controversy and then getting people
to then react to it is an old trick of the yellow rag. Of course, the
controversy is REAL, but what tone it has is another matter.
   In one piece discussing the "double planet" concept, Britt
uses a phrase about them having that "barycenter thing going."
Hey! Making bad slangy jokes about science is my job! I doubt
the working astronomers are talking about it that way. Maybe...

   When I found that Proposal V exists only in press releases
from the IAU and not in their schedule, I commented that they
are obviously "flying by the seat of their pants" on this one.
This is a very fluid situation. "The IAU has the authority to
handle the debate however it wishes. It could either amend the
existing proposal or adopt the competing proposal. The ultimate
plan is to put something before the IAU membership for a vote
on Thursday, Aug. 24." Gingerich said the Executive Committee
"will undoubtedly come before the membership with a single
resolution. They may make some adjustments."

   In other words, the present proposal we're all arguing about
has been "floated," as the politicians call the process. Say you're
going to do such-and-such and see how people react to it. Then,
change it to reflect what people will accept.

   It will be hard to do that here. This is science, not party politics.
And, the division seems to be about even. WHATEVER you do
will upset about half of the constituents. Another possibility is that
the proposal will pass narrowly for no other reason than the fact
that astronomers are very uncomfortable with this present chaotic
situation.

   A parent can take their child to a museum this Sunday where
there are EIGHT planets, then next Sunday to a museum where
there are NINE planets, and then your kid says, "Nah, there are
TWELVE planets; I read it on the Internet."

   Let's face it: the natural inclination of the Executive Committee
is to postpone. They'll already done that... twice. And the situation
didn't go away; it got worse. But, rather than institutionalize the
division, they may want not to have any vote. But Gingerich seems
to think there will be some vote (and he would know, I think).


Sterling K. Webb
--
- Original Message - 
From: "MexicoDoug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ron Baalke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Meteorite Mailing List" 


Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All



"> and the Charon aspect specifically for going too far in essentially

recasting too many small round objects as full-fledged planets.

Eventually,

with new discoveries, there would likely be hundreds."


Hello Again, The Charon and the "rotating around center of mass outside 
the
larger body (Pluto in this case)" criterion aspect is very unwieldy for 
me.
If a soccer ball, or other object which could have melted and rounded 
itself
(or even rubble-pile modeled asteroids) gets into a meta stable orbit 
around

the center of mass of the multi-body system in the appropriate conditions,
it will become a planet for the moments it rotates outside the other 
members
crust.  And more interestingly, if the orbit is of high enough 
eccentricity,
the center of mass will vary inside and outside the major body.  I guess 
the

simple solution would be to refine the definition for convenience to say
that all bodies are compared as if they orbited the major body of the 
system

at "X" distance, etc.  But this innocent corollary is a needless
complication and goes against the grain of the intention: to make it a
fairly independent set of criteria based on a priori physics.  There is
"based on physics" and "making reference to physics".  Anyone can make
reference to physics - the IAU committees still hasn't understood that
though they've come a good way along.  Ganymede and our Luna moons are
excluded based on what boils down to an arbitrary criterion.  Time to cut

Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All

[Darren Garrison]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:37:48 -0500, you wrote:

>further I trust you.  If you happen to have the British "girl's" email
>address sure I'll send a message to further vindicate you and Darren.

Sorry to keep on and on about this, but here is a BBC interview with the
woman/former girl who named Pluto that I ran across.  (No e-mail address,
though) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4596246.stm.  I present it
more as an interesting piece of living history than trying to prove any point.
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Re: [meteorite-list] Solar System in Perspective

[Darren Garrison]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:36:14 -0400, you wrote:

>Apologies, if this link was posted previously.
>
>Some nice, high resolution graphics and a video fly-by, relative to the 
>on-going debate/discussion...
>
>http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_release.html

Thanks for supplying these.  I've seen thumbnail sized copies of them included
in news stories before and did a little digging looking for the full images, but
wasn't successful.  This image kind of confuses me, though:

http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/screen/iau0601c.jpg

It shows 2003 EL61 as highly distorted in shape, but shows it as a "planet
candidate", but by their own proposal it wouldn't be concidered a planet if it
had that non-hydrostatic equilibrium shape.
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Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All

[MexicoDoug]

Hello Larry and Darren, OK, I checked your facts and I'll stuff the idea
about the Disney character where the Sun don't shine and it belongs.  And
further I trust you.  If you happen to have the British "girl's" email
address sure I'll send a message to further vindicate you and Darren.

As for the first P.D., I object to your mischaracterization on this issue of
public interest and the birthright we all have to express our opinions, even
baboons like myself.  I never would criticize you for the failure you had on
reaching consensus while on the "Committee".  On the contrary you and other
members have my respect as contributors, though I have a problem with the
committee's appointed authority.   You have to admit, the astronomers must
be having a fun time...Are you trying to say that it is not fair game to
suggest that the committee has learned a lot but has a way to go, and are
you saying that the committee is right in not actively soliciting someone
like Saul Kripke as a member?  If only astronomers dedicated this sort of
priority and effort to new space mission, it would be over funded and
launched by now.

As for Revolve vs. Rotate.  Revolve may be the common and non-ambiguous
word, but the word rotate, is fine too, at least outside peer-reviewed
journals, unless the language police have gotten to it.  In math, the origin
we choose to rotate does not have to be the spin axis.  That is a special
case.  I don't think there was any confusion in my use.  I don't follow your
need for the relevance of that point other than as an attempted slap in the
face, though I appreciate the clarification anyway and will think twice in
the future about who might object and treat you with your terms.

Finally, I believe you either haven't understood my point on the centroid of
mass, or are confused with all of the issues surrounding this.  Or maybe I
am, though I don't think so, and am a little too tired to draw the geometry.
Here's my thought process to make concrete which I had conceptualized for
you, right or wrong.  Kepler's Laws allow for all orbits to be elliptical.
If the center of mass is the axis of rotation (revolution?), my intuition is
that the smaller body will not maintain equal distance from the larger at
all times.  You can pull them further apart and the center of mass will
remain where it is...without worrying about staying "inside" the crust of
the larger body if the sizes are fairly similar as in the case of twin
planets.  I am thinking of a see-saw with two water balloons on each side of
the fulcrum.  The orbital energy comes into play but it is clear to me that
they can see-saw whether their surfaces intersect or not - ie, they can be
as close together or far apart as they wish with the appropriate energy.
The Sun is about 1000 times the mass of Jupiter.  Jupiter is at about 5.2
AU.  I believe that would put Jupiter OUTSIDE the photosphere of the
Sundo you not think it would be a little arbitrary to decide the Sun was
a double star system just based on that alone?  Because if Jupiter were in
Ceres place, it would be "inside" the Sun?

Perhaps the example is quite poor in that it mixes in a fulcrum, but I am
trying to address your question and a bit worn out from my observations of
Ceres last night and am not particularly looking to say more than I've
already argued on these points other than, as Jack Horkheimer might say,
"Keep Looking Up!" (and he wasn't thinking of the dictionary:)).
Best wishes and cloudless nights to you, Doug.



Larry wrote:
> Hi Doug:
>
> I am not an expert on dynamics, but the center of mass is the center of
mass.
>
> If you have two objects in orbit (revolve, not rotate) around the center
of
> mass, if one were larger, its orbit would have to be elliptical in order
for
> the center of mass to go outside to inside of it.
> We are not talking about multiple systems with liquid planets, that is
going a
> little too far. One body cannot go into and out of another.
>
> I do not understand your first P.D. That is a slap in the face of the
people on
> the committee as well as the organizations that recommended and picked
them.
> Are you more qualified to have chosen the committee?
>
> To answer your P.D.D., it would help to actually check your facts. The
name of
> the planet predates the dog by nearly a year. The kid is still alive and
was
> interviewed earlier this year, why not ask her?
>
> Larry
>
> Quoting MexicoDoug <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > "> and the Charon aspect specifically for going too far in essentially
> > > recasting too many small round objects as full-fledged planets.
> > Eventually,
> > > with new discoveries, there would likely be hundreds."
> >
> > Hello Again, The Charon and the "rotating around center of mass outside
the
> > larger body (Pluto in this case)" criterion aspect is very unwieldy for
me.
> > If a soccer ball, or other object which could have melted and rounded
itself
> > (or even rubble-pile modeled asteroids) gets into a meta stable orbit
ar

[meteorite-list] Solar System in Perspective

[Pete Pete]

Apologies, if this link was posted previously.

Some nice, high resolution graphics and a video fly-by, relative to the 
on-going debate/discussion...


http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_release.html
http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_release.html

Cheers,
Pete

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Re: Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All

[Darren Garrison]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:53:50 -0500, you wrote:

>P.P.D. Pluto was actually named after the Disney Dog character by a British
>child

Not only that, but a British child with precognition!  (How else could she know
that the dog would be named Pluto in the future?)

"Pluto is also the name of the Roman god of the underworld. It was suggested by
many people, but credit was given to an 11-year-old girl from England."

"Rejected names included: Minerva, the goddess of knowledge, because it was
already in use, and Constance, proposed by Constance Lowell — the widow of
Percival Lowell, who first hypothesized Planet X. "That suggestion was quietly
ignored," says Kevin Schindler of Lowell Observatory."

"Mickey Mouse's dog, though yet unnamed, made his debut in "The Chain Gang" in
1930 — the same year the planet made its debut to earthlings. Pluto, the Disney
character, was named the following year, which leads Disney archivists to assume
the dog took the name of the planet dominating the news at the time, said Disney
archives director Dave Smith. (AP)"

From sidebar in http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/14/tech/main673946.shtml 
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Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All

[Larry Lebofsky]

Hi Doug:

I am not an expert on dynamics, but the center of mass is the center of mass.

If you have two objects in orbit (revolve, not rotate) around the center of 
mass, if one were larger, its orbit would have to be elliptical in order for 
the center of mass to go outside to inside of it. 
We are not talking about multiple systems with liquid planets, that is going a 
little too far. One body cannot go into and out of another.

I do not understand your first P.D. That is a slap in the face of the people on 
the committee as well as the organizations that recommended and picked them. 
Are you more qualified to have chosen the committee?

To answer your P.D.D., it would help to actually check your facts. The name of 
the planet predates the dog by nearly a year. The kid is still alive and was 
interviewed earlier this year, why not ask her?

Larry

Quoting MexicoDoug <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> "> and the Charon aspect specifically for going too far in essentially
> > recasting too many small round objects as full-fledged planets.
> Eventually,
> > with new discoveries, there would likely be hundreds."
> 
> Hello Again, The Charon and the "rotating around center of mass outside the
> larger body (Pluto in this case)" criterion aspect is very unwieldy for me.
> If a soccer ball, or other object which could have melted and rounded itself
> (or even rubble-pile modeled asteroids) gets into a meta stable orbit around
> the center of mass of the multi-body system in the appropriate conditions,
> it will become a planet for the moments it rotates outside the other members
> crust.  And more interestingly, if the orbit is of high enough eccentricity,
> the center of mass will vary inside and outside the major body.  I guess the
> simple solution would be to refine the definition for convenience to say
> that all bodies are compared as if they orbited the major body of the system
> at "X" distance, etc.  But this innocent corollary is a needless
> complication and goes against the grain of the intention: to make it a
> fairly independent set of criteria based on a priori physics.  There is
> "based on physics" and "making reference to physics".  Anyone can make
> reference to physics - the IAU committees still hasn't understood that
> though they've come a good way along.  Ganymede and our Luna moons are
> excluded based on what boils down to an arbitrary criterion.  Time to cut to
> the Gordian chase and toss out this criterion.  Anything else will smack of
> arbitrariness.  How scientific can an issue be when you have near 50%-50%
> acceptance/rejection after so many years of debate?  I won't get going on
> "dwarf" status.  With stars it has real meaning.  However, it is arbitrary
> in its proposed use with the planets and again a cheap shot to put
> pseudoscience masquerading as real science (unethically) by experts in
> something who seems to feel that their diplomas make them experts in
> applying well defined astronomical terms to an amorphous limbo.  If you want
> to call it a dwarf planet - a double planet - any icy planet - a terrestrial
> planet - that's fine and highly context dependent.  Thus the adjective of
> choice is in the domain of the speaker, not in the quaint streets of Prague
> in meetings as astronomers eat up the travel and entertainment bill.
> Best wishes, Doug


> P.D. The IAU Committee has utterly failed by not including a committee
> member of the class and stature of Saul Kripke.  Historians and
> Astronomers...but how about including someone with real experience and
> credentials in aprioricity who has danced with the likes of Kant (and
> usually held his own).  I trust they will remedy this, as good scientists
> not concerned about who shares their turf...
> P.P.D. Pluto was actually named after the Disney Dog character by a British
> child, but was endorsed by astronomers under the auspices we generally
> consider when explaining the logic of planetary nomenclature.
> 
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> 


-- 
Dr. Larry A. Lebofsky
Senior Research Scientist
Co-editor, Meteorite  "If you give a man a fish,   
Lunar and Planetary Laboratory   you feed him for a day.
1541 East University   If you teach a man to fish,
University of Arizonayou feed him for a lifetime."
Tucson, AZ 85721-0063 ~Chinese Proverb
Phone:  520-621-6947
FAX:520-621-8364
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All

[MexicoDoug]

"> and the Charon aspect specifically for going too far in essentially
> recasting too many small round objects as full-fledged planets.
Eventually,
> with new discoveries, there would likely be hundreds."

Hello Again, The Charon and the "rotating around center of mass outside the
larger body (Pluto in this case)" criterion aspect is very unwieldy for me.
If a soccer ball, or other object which could have melted and rounded itself
(or even rubble-pile modeled asteroids) gets into a meta stable orbit around
the center of mass of the multi-body system in the appropriate conditions,
it will become a planet for the moments it rotates outside the other members
crust.  And more interestingly, if the orbit is of high enough eccentricity,
the center of mass will vary inside and outside the major body.  I guess the
simple solution would be to refine the definition for convenience to say
that all bodies are compared as if they orbited the major body of the system
at "X" distance, etc.  But this innocent corollary is a needless
complication and goes against the grain of the intention: to make it a
fairly independent set of criteria based on a priori physics.  There is
"based on physics" and "making reference to physics".  Anyone can make
reference to physics - the IAU committees still hasn't understood that
though they've come a good way along.  Ganymede and our Luna moons are
excluded based on what boils down to an arbitrary criterion.  Time to cut to
the Gordian chase and toss out this criterion.  Anything else will smack of
arbitrariness.  How scientific can an issue be when you have near 50%-50%
acceptance/rejection after so many years of debate?  I won't get going on
"dwarf" status.  With stars it has real meaning.  However, it is arbitrary
in its proposed use with the planets and again a cheap shot to put
pseudoscience masquerading as real science (unethically) by experts in
something who seems to feel that their diplomas make them experts in
applying well defined astronomical terms to an amorphous limbo.  If you want
to call it a dwarf planet - a double planet - any icy planet - a terrestrial
planet - that's fine and highly context dependent.  Thus the adjective of
choice is in the domain of the speaker, not in the quaint streets of Prague
in meetings as astronomers eat up the travel and entertainment bill.
Best wishes, Doug
P.D. The IAU Committee has utterly failed by not including a committee
member of the class and stature of Saul Kripke.  Historians and
Astronomers...but how about including someone with real experience and
credentials in aprioricity who has danced with the likes of Kant (and
usually held his own).  I trust they will remedy this, as good scientists
not concerned about who shares their turf...
P.P.D. Pluto was actually named after the Disney Dog character by a British
child, but was endorsed by astronomers under the auspices we generally
consider when explaining the logic of planetary nomenclature.

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Re: [meteorite-list] Planets Galore

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi Mike, list - 

So let's look at this as process - 

Whatever this current committee does, as very many
more new KBOs and Oort cloud objects are discovered
which fit their new definition for planet,  

and as memory of Clyde's discovery fades, along with
the passing of many of his colleagues,

then that future IAU formally adopts Brown's
definition - a planet has to be large enough to clear
its part of the accretion ring.  And then Pluto gets
"demoted", and Clyde becomes the FIRST discovere of a
KBO.

Of course, there'll be a lot of trees killed for
needless paper in the meantime.

good hunting,
Ed

PS - Mike, as an anthropologist you'll definitely want
a copy of my book "Man and Impact in the Americas",
now available through amazon.com.


--- Michael L Blood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> As an Anthropologist and Sociologist
> I find myself more interested in WHO
> considers these changes in nomenclature
> desirable and who considers them undesirable.
> As for myself, I consider sweeping changes
> such as this highly undesirable. This fits in with
> several elements dealing with human preferances,
> which appear to be at least related clear back to
> the Order level, as many parallels can be made
> to Baboon preferences.
> The primary determinant to acceptance of
> change
> appears to be most closely associated with aging.
> However,
> at what age preferences remain open differ, at least
> among
> humans - US dwellers specifically.
> For instance. Baboons in the later phases of
> life, particularly
> the higher ranking males, will NOT eat new foods,
> even if the
> troup moves (or is relocated) to an area or refuge
> where many
> new and desirable foodstuffs are readily available.
> In the US, people will not try new foods
> after about the age
> of 35. For instance, a Sushi restraint has nearly no
> hope of making
> it among the older diners in the midwest, as most of
> the population
> over 35 have never eaten sushi and, therefore, are
> not open to trying
> it. 
> However, such preferences are not limited to
> foodstuff, and
> "new" or "adventurous" behavior is also limited.
> Music seems to be
> one of the most rigid criteria, with preferences
> beginning at about
> 14 and lasting only until somewhere between 21 and
> 30ish. After
> that, little "new" styles tend to be accepted and
> the individual will
> forever drift toward the music of his/her "youth."
> In other things,
> ranging from sports to toothpaste the more
> successful a person is
> in a "stable" career, the less flexible they seem to
> be.
> Therefore, I will choose to view my total
> resentment of this
> "planet" taxonomy revolution as being hogwash due to
> my long
> term successfulness in my chosen fields. (But how do
> I then explain
> my ever growing fascination with new interests)
> Anyway, food for thought, even if you don't
> like sushi!
> Michael
> 
> on 8/17/06 4:31 AM, Francis Graham at
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > Dear List:
> > I enjoyed the debate and conversation on this list
> > on the subject of what a definition of a planet
> is. It
> > was not acrimonious and personal, and was very
> > interesting and worthwhile.
> > Many of us do not care if Ceres is a planet or
> even
> > if the old Apollo rocket stages are called planets
> > --well, maybe I stretch it there--, the important
> > thing is to have a definition of a term that must
> be
> > used in scholarly journals and go on. Of course
> common
> > usage will differ from the IAU definition, and
> that is
> > OK. After all, we still speak of sunrise and
> sunset,
> > although we no longer regard the Universe as
> > Ptolemaic.
> > As for astrologers, some will be confused and some
> > will see it as a bonanza. That is their concern.
> This
> > list is concerned with the scientific study and
> other
> > aspects of meteorites, and the definition of
> planet is
> > important to this list because meteorites can come
> > from some of these bodies.
> > The worst possible outcome is to have no
> definition
> > approved. If the definition is later shown to be
> > faulty, or fails to optimally facilitate the
> > communication of scientific results, it can be
> > ammended later.  
> > There is an analogy to this confusion. In some
> > states of the USA people are permitted to marry at
> a
> > young age. Having done so, they move to another
> state
> > without such laws, and are arrested for sex
> crimes.
> > While this is much more a serious non-uniformity
> > problem than the definition of a planet, it
> adequately
> > illustrates the problem that nonuniformity
> creates.
> > What one journal calls a planet another will not
> > allow, this is akin to the young-marriage problem.
> A
> > popular science writer would have to have a
> separate
> > list of acceptable planets for each editor. It is
> > better to have even a mediocre uniformity than
> > confusion. And by no means am I necessarily
> calling
> > the 

Re: [meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All

[Darren Garrison]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 09:53:11 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>For example, brown dwarfs are low-mass stars that fail to produce the 
>thermonuclear fusion that powers real stars.

Interesting side note on this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5260008.stm
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[meteorite-list] Mars Odyssey THEMIS Images: August 14-18, 2006

[Ron Baalke]

MARS ODYSSEY THEMIS IMAGES
August 14-18, 2006

o Feature of the Week: Polar Cap Edge
  http://themis.asu.edu/feature

o Channel Dunes (Released 14 August 2006)
  http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20060814a

o Olympus Mons (Released 15 August 2006)
  http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20060815a

o Crater Fill (Released 16 August 2006)
  http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20060816a

o Tharsis Lava Flows (Released 17 August 2006)
  http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20060817a

o Crater Island (Released 18 August 2006)
  http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20060818a


All of the THEMIS images are archived here:

http://themis.asu.edu/latest.html

NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory manages the 2001 Mars Odyssey mission 
for NASA's Office of Space Science, Washington, D.C. The Thermal Emission 
Imaging System (THEMIS) was developed by Arizona State University,
Tempe, in co.oration with Raytheon Santa Barbara Remote Sensing. 
The THEMIS investigation is led by Dr. Philip Christensen at Arizona State 
University. Lockheed Martin Astronautics, Denver, is the prime contractor 
for the Odyssey project, and developed and built the orbiter. Mission 
operations are conducted jointly from Lockheed Martin and from JPL, a 
division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena. 


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[meteorite-list] Pluto May Get Demoted After All

[Ron Baalke]

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/060818_planet_newprop.html

Pluto May Get Demoted After All
By Robert Roy Britt 
space.com
18 August 2006

The effort to define the term "planet" took a fresh twist today as two 
competing proposals were put forth at a meeting of astronomers in Prague.

In one case, Pluto would be demoted to "dwarf planet" status, which would 
mean it would not be a real planet at all.

Astronomers are split down the middle on the issue.

Eight planets or hundreds

On Wednesday, officials with the International Astronomical Union (IAU)
proposed a planet definition that would make Pluto's moon Charon a
planet. Several astronomers criticized the overall proposal as being vague 
and the Charon aspect specifically for going too far in essentially 
recasting too many small round objects as full-fledged planets. Eventually, 
with new discoveries, there would likely be hundreds.

They also were critical of the proposed term "pluton" to describe Pluto,
Charon and other small round objects in the outer solar system that would be 
planets under the new definition.

Today, a subgroup of the IAU met to discuss the proposal. A straw vote
was held in which only about 18 astronomers favored the proposal,
according to Alan Boss, a planet-formation theorist at the Carnegie
Institution of Washington. Another 20 or so said it should be reworked.
And about 50 favored an alternate proposal.

"Most of the speakers during the discussion favored the competing
proposal, which inserts the criterion that a planet must be 'by far the
largest body in its population of bodies,'" Boss told SPACE.com.

That means Pluto and Charon, being no larger than other objects in the
sea of rocks beyond Neptune, would not be planets. Pluto would be called 
a "dwarf planet" rather than a pluton.  That would be in keeping with 
terminology used to describe small stars.

For example, brown dwarfs are low-mass stars that fail to produce the 
thermonuclear fusion that powers real stars.

"The group loudly applauded that description of Pluto," said Boss, who
has been critical of the original IAU proposal.

But some astronomers - perhaps about half of those at the meeting - are
still rallying for Pluto to remain a planet.

50-50 split

"There is a very large community out there defending keeping Pluto in
the list," said Owen Gingerich, an historian and astronomer emeritus at
Harvard who led the seven-member IAU committee that generated the
original definition. Gingerich said correspondence on the issue has been
half in favor of the original definition and half against.

In a telephone interview from Prague, Gingerich acknowledged that in
today's meeting astronomers "seemed to be overwhelmingly opposed" to the
term plutons, but said "it's not clear why."

Gingerich said calling Pluto a dwarf planet but having it not really be
a planet is "almost self-contradictory and linguistically objectionable."

Calling Pluto a dwarf would be a demotion that makes sense to many
astronomers who say it was a mistake in the first place to call Pluto a
planet when it was discovered in 1930. The dwarf category would 
essentially give higher status to the eight other planets in our solar 
system, and it would open up a new category to be populated by dozens of 
round objects already discovered out beyond Neptune and hundreds more that 
are expected to be found.

Public sentiment

People on the street were far less interested in the whole debate than are 
the astronomers.

"I guess astronomers must be getting bored and running out of things to
do," said 22-year-old college student Mark Ramos.

But in general, people favor keeping Pluto as a planet. "It's my
favorite planet," said Emika Watanabe, a preschool teacher from Tokyo.

That is a sentiment that astronomers have been wrestling with for about
seven years now. Most astronomers agree it would be scientifically
convenient to demote Pluto, but they're well aware of the potential
outcry from school children. That "cultural clash," as Gingerich put it,
has been one of the biggest stumbling blocks in the ongoing debate
over a planet definition.

Boss said the IAU has the authority to handle the debate however it
wishes. It could either amend the existing proposal or adopt the
competing proposal. The ultimate plan is to put something before the IAU
membership for a vote on Thursday, Aug. 24.

Gingerich said he would be meeting today with the IAU Executive
Committee as that group ponders the next move. He said the Executive
Committee "will undoubtedly come before the membership with a single
resolution. They may make some adjustments."

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Re: [meteorite-list] NEW PLANETARY NAMES

[Darren Garrison]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:16:51 -0400, you wrote:

>I am in favor of letting the scientific bodies decide this as long as 
>they are fairly unanimous about it. Clyde was a very nice man and this 
>was his claim to fame. I know he would be sad if this major discovery of 
>that time were to be taken from him. How would the average person feel 
>to make such a monumental discovery similar to this in our age, only to 
>have some airheads of the modern day try to strip it from you?

Clyde Tombaugh thought that he had discovered a planet large enough to distort
the orbits of the outer gas giants, which is what he had been looking for.  But
he was mistaken.  If he had known then what we know now, he would probably have
seen the analogy with the asteroids and the asteroid belt.  The IAU has their
reasons for defining Pluto as a planet, but "don't want to hurt feelings of long
dead nice guy Clyde Tombaugh" shouldn't be a serious issue for anyone.  (Yes,
I've read the book, but has been around 20 years or so ago).  

If the character of the discoverer is an issue, then what should be done about
the fact that Percival Lowell began the search, and that part of the reason the
name Pluto was so easily accepted is because the first letters are "P", "L"?
Tombaugh may have been a nice guy, but I've recenlty read some of Percival
Lowell's writings about Japan from Project Gutenberg, and that guy was a
dyed-in-the-wool racist.  Sure, he had the mainstream views of the time period,
but I'll still never be able to hear his name (or the name of Pluto) again
without having a bad taste in my mouth.
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Re: [meteorite-list] Moss/Comet

[Michael Farmer]

It is a primitive meteorite, a carbonaceous chondrite,
not from a comet, but basically stardust! Virtually
unchanged for over 4 BILLION years!
Michael Farmer

--- Meteorite Game <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Is the Moss meteorite from a comet?
>
>   Cordially.
>
>   Rick
> 
>   
> -
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Re: [meteorite-list] NEW PLANETARY NAMES

[almitt]

Greetings All,

Thought I would jump in all this. For those in favor of changing the 
status of Pluto (as if we have any voice in the matter),
I would recommend reading Clyde's book "Out of the Darkness the Planet 
Pluto" Today's generation seems to like to try and change history and 
what went on back in the good old days. History is history so why not 
leave it where it is. Pluto is probably a large belt object but the 
first one found. Add that to the textbooks but allow for the planet 
status to remain. Really until we go there and take a look around at 
Pluto and some of the other objects we may be wrong again. Lets make 
sure we know what we think we know.


I am in favor of letting the scientific bodies decide this as long as 
they are fairly unanimous about it. Clyde was a very nice man and this 
was his claim to fame. I know he would be sad if this major discovery of 
that time were to be taken from him. How would the average person feel 
to make such a monumental discovery similar to this in our age, only to 
have some airheads of the modern day try to strip it from you?? Let 
sleeping dogs lay, and let discoveries remain what they were.


--AL Mitterling



Tracy wrote:

"For myself, unless there is something huge and spectacular hiding out
there, I propose we call all the trans-Neptunian ice-and-dirtballs "crutons"
(as several List members have suggested), lose Pluto as a planet (for strict
interpretations), and stop throwing monkey doo-doo. :D
Anyone here read a kids' book by Andrew Clements, called _Frindle_?
Ver-r-r-y enlightening.
Tracy Latimer (the Librarian-in-training) "
 


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[meteorite-list] Spectacular Meteor Shower Possible for 2007

[Jim Strope]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060817/sc_space/spacecomexclusivespectacularmeteorshowerpossiblefor2007

http://www.space.com/spacewatch/060817_meteor_shower.html

Jim Strope
421 Fourth Street
Glen Dale, WV  26038

http://www.catchafallingstar.com 


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Re: [meteorite-list] Task force to monitor asteroid threats

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi all - 

It is truly depressing to see Morrison obtaining the
chair of the new task force.

While Morrison is to be applauded for his early work
taking on  Velikovsky, and for his early work with
Shoemaker, since then he has not done very well.  It
is not his backing of Muller, which resulted in the
wasting of 10's of millions of dollars, it is his
efforts at stifling of Clube and Napier that is his
true fault.  That was not science on his part, that
was politics. When Morrison states that the cometary
impact hazard is 5% of the total hazard, he speaks
nonsense, based on nothing.

This will end with time, and perhaps archaeology will
end it, but the damage will have been done. As for
impact, we still have no word on where the 64
fragments of SW3 will be in 2022; as for US leadership
in space, China will begin work on their CAPS system
in 2018.

Thanks for letting me vent.

good hunting, 
Ed
Man and Impact in the Americas

--- Darren Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14395543/
> 
> Task force to monitor asteroid threats 
> Astronomers focus on worries about impact
> catastrophe
> The Associated Press
> 
> 
> Updated: 3:14 p.m. ET Aug 17, 2006
> PRAGUE, Czech Republic - They’re out there, hidden
> among a haze of stars —
> killer asteroids. Now the world’s astronomers are
> keeping a wary eye to the
> skies for giant objects on a collision course with
> Earth.
> 
> Experts say there are about 1,100 comets and
> asteroids in the inner solar system
> that are at least a half-mile (1 kilometer) across,
> and that any one of them
> could unleash a global cataclysm capable of killing
> millions in a single
> blinding flash.
> 
> On Thursday, the International Astronomical Union
> said it has set up a special
> task force to sharpen its focus on threats from such
> “near-Earth objects.”
> 
> “The goal is to discover these killer asteroids
> before they discover us,” said
> Nick Kaiser of the University of Hawaii’s Institute
> for Astronomy, which hopes
> to train four powerful digital cameras on the
> heavens to watch for would-be
> intruders.
> 
> There are no asteroid busters to stop one right now,
> but scientists believe that
> one day a defense could be devised, such as using
> spacecraft to divert a killer
> comet.
> 
> Congress wants defense plan
> Congress has asked NASA for a plan to comb the
> cosmos for even smaller, more
> distant objects, including asteroids just 1½
> football fields (150 meters)
> across. The space agency is to catalog their
> position, speed and course by 2020.
> Already, there are 103 objects on an “impact risk”
> watch list.
> 
> Scientists warn there are as many as 100,000 of
> these “smaller” heavenly bodies
> with the potential to take out entire cities or set
> off a tsunami like the
> killer wave that swept through the Indian Ocean in
> December 2004.
> 
> Earth’s craters bear silent witness to what can
> happen even when a smallish
> asteroid slams home. In 1908, one struck remote
> central Siberia, unleashing as
> much energy as a 15-megaton nuclear bomb.
> Fortunately, it wiped out 60 million
> trees, not people. Had it hit a populated area, the
> loss of life would have been
> staggering.
> 
> Good news: Risk reduced
> There’s some recent good news too: Earth’s most
> pressing threat — the asteroid
> 99942 Apophis — appears to have eased. Scientists
> initially gave it a 1-in-5,500
> chance of hitting the planet in 2036, with enough
> power to wipe out the New York
> City metro area. But experts said Thursday the
> latest observations suggest those
> odds have dwindled to 1-in-30,000.
> 
> They won’t be sure until it makes an earlier pass in
> 2029, when it’s expected to
> come within 18,640 miles (30,000 kilometers) of
> Earth. If that sounds
> comfortably distant, consider this: It’s closer than
> many commercial satellites
> and a good deal nearer than the moon.
> 
> Although close encounters are unnerving, they give
> astronomers a unique
> opportunity to get a better glimpse of asteroids and
> comets — the leftover
> building materials of the universe — and gain a
> better understanding of the
> origins of the solar system.
> 
> Scientists say expanding their database of the
> objects crowding Earth’s
> neighborhood could help produce a permanent warning
> system like those that now
> monitor the Pacific for tsunamis or keep tabs on
> volcanoes and earthquake zones.
> 
> Give the world a decade or so of lead time to deal
> with a specific threat, they
> say, and it stands a chance of getting out of harm’s
> way — perhaps by sending up
> a spacecraft to nudge an asteroid off-course.
> 
> “Right now, unfortunately, there are no ‘asteroid
> busters’ or hot lines. Who ya
> gonna call?” said Andrea Milani Comparetti, a
> professor of mathematics at
> Italy’s University of Pisa.
> 
> Worrying about a scare
> To be on the safe side, astronomers trying to
> determine the odds of one hitting
> Earth work with computer models that surround it

[meteorite-list] Some mistakes in Met.Bulletin database coordinates

[M come Meteorite Meteorites]

some examples with google earth:

Messina Meteorite 38° 11'N, 15° 34'E and are in the
sea 

Henbury crater 24° 34'S, 133° 8'E and are a river in
the australian desert

and many others...

Matteo


M come Meteorite - Matteo Chinellato
Via Triestina 126/A - 30030 - TESSERA, VENEZIA, ITALY
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sale Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.it 
Collection Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.info
MSN Messanger: spacerocks at hotmail.com
EBAY.COM:http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/mcomemeteorite/

Chiacchiera con i tuoi amici in tempo reale! 
 http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/*http://it.messenger.yahoo.com 
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[meteorite-list] Trip to Morocco

[Pelé Pierre-Marie]

Hello !I wish to make a trip to Morocco to find meteorite at
local dealers or villages.   I know there are dealers in Rissani,
Erfoud or M'Hamid but are there other villages or towns where I could
buy meteorites, near Marrakech ?Best regards,Pierre-Marie PELE__
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[meteorite-list] Moss/Comet

[Meteorite Game]

Is the Moss meteorite from a comet?     Cordially.     Rick 
	
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RE: [meteorite-list] Micro/Macromount Availability- Where did they Go?

[joseph_town]

Hi all,

Priority shipping and combining purchases is a simple tool to "motivate" 
customers to buy more in order to offset shipping costs. The frugal buyer feels 
more comfortable with the shipping cost even though they may be buying material 
they really didn't care much about. I'm sure all micro buyers have considered 
this after rethinking the purchase of 4 or 5 pieces they didn't need.

I like priority shipping and even if you're only buying a five dollar specimen, 
it's cheaper in the long run to just pay and get the one than to buy extra 
material you don't want.  

Bill


 -- Original message --
From: "Michael Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> So then why not ship first class? You are telling us that people who buy a
> meteorite from you on ebay for $0.99 cents and then pays $4.05 shipping is
> not being ripped off? Even if you are not keeping the money, it is just
> stupid to pay so much when it can be shipped for barely $.50 cents pluss $25
> cents or so for the padded envelope.
> Mike Farmer
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Hupe
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 11:57 AM
> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Micro/Macromount Availability- Where did they
> Go?
> 
> Mike,
> 
> This statement is far from true:
> 
> 
> > Anyone who charges $4.00 shipping for a micro in the
> > USA is ripping off their customers. They are just
> > trying to make money on the shipping. I charge $1.00
> > on 99% of the micors I sell on ebay. The exception is
> > when the micro is valuable, like Lunar and Martian
> > material that I need to track to ensure it isnt lost.
> > Michael Farmer
> 
> I only ship Priority Mail and charge exactly $4.05, the actual cost of the
> stamp. Most people PayPal payments including shipping. After PayPal takes
> their cut, I actually lose money on shipments. I combine on the average 5
> items bringing down the customers' costs to just 81 cents an item. I combine
> over two auction sessions allowing them to bring shipping costs down even
> further. The buyer gets their items in 2 days without the breakage you get
> by shipping in padded envelopes.  I have found, that overall Priority Mail
> is the only way to go and nobody is get ripped-off!
> 
> Adam
> 
> 
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[meteorite-list] Thanks Chris

[Meteorite Game]

Thanks Chris for the ideas on the shape of the meteor.     It seems one could spend a lifetime learning about meteors and thier entries etc.        Cordially.     Rick 
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Re: Re: [meteorite-list] NEW PLANETARY NAMES

[Larry Lebofsky]

Hi all:

This is why there is an IAU nomenclature committee. It prevents chaos when 
naming asteroids, comets, satellites, and now planets, I guess.

Larry, 
asteroid 3439 Lebofsky

Quoting Darren Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 22:59:55 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> >Oh...  Why name the planets after a god/godess?  What's wrong with
> Bernhard,
> >Mary, Ann, Richard, Mike, etc. etc.
> 
> Tradition, I suppose.  But if they name too many objects, they may have to
> start
> looking for other sources.  Like maybe naming them from characters in
> popular
> Science Fiction franchises.  So how about planets Aunt Beru, Captain
> Janeway,
> and Hot Blonde Cylon Chick?
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[meteorite-list] The goddess COLUMBIA

[MexicoDoug]

Hola friends and listees,

Dave's got a great point here, so I wanted to get my 2¢ in on a selection
for a name of a new planet.  I love that simplicity of "Bob", the first
potentially palindromic planet.  But my mind is in a different world: I
think we aren't yet  ready for a planet that reminds me somewhat of public
TV's "Mr. Bill".  Nothing personal, as Doug would equally remind me of a
certain cartoon on cable TV.  Let me be mum on the Warrior Princess
idea...as Xena sounds a bit like Athena in my mind-and Athena I like -
though they are Greek-rooted, not Latin-rooted names like the rest of the
planets.  Sterling's favorite goddess of discord doesn't seem very
appropriate to immortalize fir posterity - though in today's climate it
might gain sympathy;  To have a woman's name as I insinuated two day's ago,
solely for the third "woman planet" doesn't seem very bright anymore if it
is just for an arbitrary reason, though Jupiter and the rest of the giant
guys in the outer solar system are probably are just getting a bit loony by
now.  Proposing a planet's name cries for a powerful and sensible name in
the Ptolemaic tradition that has been the foundation of Astronomy and
astrology.

Let me propose the goddess "Columbia" for the next planet.

There are multiple reasons for this suggestion.  If we really wish to build
on the ancients' wisdom, it should be a fluid transition...and Columbia is a
goddess in her own right, uniquely suited to this occasion.  She is a
combination of the ancients, in the Greek and Roman tradition and the
similar contemporary thirst for discovery.  Planet Columbia would be a
welcomed complement to the beauty embodied in Venus (Aphrodite), as her
style is taken historically from Minerva(Athena) herself, the Wisdom,
Strength of the Woman, and Jupiter's favorite headache which follows in the
tradition of Saturn and Uranus.  Yet she represents the voyage of discovery
for a new, contemporary Parthenon of gods and a fusion of truth, liberty,
vastness of new space, and the best of humanity for a few millennia.

It might be helpful to follow a historical line to satisfy the
traditionalist inside us.  At the same time, it is stylish among those who
have historically named planets to quite discretely put a double entendre
into the naming of the "planet".  Neptune, the latest gas giant to be
discovered (nearly 50 years after a sometimes much brighter Ceres, by the
way), was chosen to represent the depths of space, in a kingdom far removed;
Pluto, a lord of the underworld of darkness, and having P. Lowell's
initials, and then there is Charon, Pluto's mythological companion, and
phonetically pronounced, Sharon - the name of the discover of Pluto's lesser
twin.

Columbia is a transitional goddess, of Greco-roman style combined with
Indian/Asiatic features and personality representing the inhabitants and
traditions of the New World - yet manages to be a hybrid with the greatest
accomplishments of the Old.  Pure liberty in thought, unshackling from
despotism, and enlightenment and the pursuit of truth, she was often
depicted shrouded in stars as well as an Eagle (Jupiter's symbol) and snake,
and a cornucopia representing the smorgasbord of resources just waiting to
be discovered for those with the driving initiative.

While Columbia was born of divine roots in exploration in 17th century
Europe, she unites the old with the new, and is truly a panplanetic symbol,
even stylized by the artfully gifted French engineers for the opening of the
Old World, in their gift to Egypt as an opening for passage through the
Suez...which upon floundering, eventually journeyed across the oceans to New
York Harbor as the Statue of Liberty.

While a symbolic representation of the good virtues of America, she is
properly a goddess for all of the Americas, and for Europe's finest levels
of attainment - and almost gave her name to the entire South American
Continent as well if memory doesn't fail me.

Columbia - a goddess in the traditional sense inspired by the ancients and
alive today in the hearts of so many.  Lest we forget, She embodied the
spirit of her namesake in the first regular issue Space Shuttle whose an
epic odyssey paid the price of exploration that left the whole world
weeping.

My vote is in...
Best wishes,
Doug

Dave wrote:


"Oh...  Why name the planets after a god/godess?  What's wrong with
Bernhard,
Mary, Ann, Richard, Mike, etc. etc.  I know you're looking for a female
name, but if we're going to have
> additional planets to contend with, I think we need a planet named "Bob"."

Sterling wrote:
> > Hi, All,
> >
> > If the new system passes the vote, we've got some
> > naming to do!
> >
> > Larry Lebofsky wrote (off-list):
> > "We need another female planet (not sure Xena counts)."
> >
> > There is one glaringly obvious classical divinity name for
> > 2003UB313 -- ERIS, the Greek goddess of DISCORD! She
> > started the Trojan War and apparently precipitated a debate
> > about the definitio

Re: [meteorite-list] AD- ebay auction Lamb shape meteorite from theoutback of Kazakstan

[Arriere Ban]

Yes, it looks like a chunk of iron slag. And I put it
in a haste, as it was time to go home and not to stare
at computer. But I see this lot attracts attention.
Thank you very much! ))What material have you from KZ,
if any?

--- Paul Barford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > Lamb shape meteorite from the outback of
> Kazakstan.
>  
> Looks more like a chunk of iron slag hastily put on
> sale to me. 
> 
> Paul Barford
> 
> 
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Re: [meteorite-list] NEW PLANETARY NAMES

[MexicoDoug]

Hi Tracy, Now that frindles are sadly feeling a little passé, our English
teacher fave the Dangerous Grangerous is ever on the ball pointing out to
you with great pride, her pringles tapping away at the frinboard,
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cruton
Best, St. Nick



Tracy wrote:

"For myself, unless there is something huge and spectacular hiding out
there, I propose we call all the trans-Neptunian ice-and-dirtballs "crutons"
(as several List members have suggested), lose Pluto as a planet (for strict
interpretations), and stop throwing monkey doo-doo. :D
Anyone here read a kids' book by Andrew Clements, called _Frindle_?
Ver-r-r-y enlightening.
Tracy Latimer (the Librarian-in-training) "


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