[meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites
Good morning Listees, Listoids, Listers, Here's a copy of something I posted many years ago (maybe 2004). Cheers, Bernd --- Meteorites - warm or hot to the touch? 01) The Binningup meteorite was recovered within a few minutes of the fall and was reported to have been warm to the touch. 02) Cabin Creek: Three hours after the fall, Mr. and Mrs. Shandy were able to find the hole and excavate the mass, reportedly still uncomfortably warm. 03) Glatton: was warm, not hot, when first picked up. 04) Gurram Konda: near the tent some small warm stones, which the Sentry has seen falling down. 05) Juromenha: The mass was said to have been incandescent when discovered and still warm when recovered next morning 06) L'Aigle: Affrighted persons who picked them up found the stones to be very warm and smelling of sulfur. 07) Limerick: It was immediately dug up, and I have been informed by those that were present, and on whom I could rely, that it was then warm and had a sulphurous smell. 08) Middlesbrough: The stone was new-milk warm when found, ... 09) Noblesville: The meteorite was not glowing as it passed the boys and was slightly warm when Spaulding picked it up a few seconds after it fell. 10) Pettiswood: The affrighted horse fell to the Earth, and two boys rushed to him in terror carrying fragments that Bingley found to be warm as milk just from the cow. 11) Pontlyfni: When I picked up the fragment of metal, or whatever it is, it was warm in my hand. 12) Rowton: It is, moreover, stated that when Mr. Brooks found the mass it was quite warm. 13) Tsukuba: Seconds later student Ryutaro Araki stopped to retrieve a still-warm stone that had fallen in front of his car near Tsukuba 14) Wold Cottage: Rushing to the spot he found a large stone, warm and smoking and smelling of sulfur. 15) Crumlin: When dug out the object, which had embedded itself in a straightdownward course for 13 inches, was found to be quite hot, continuing so for about an hour. 16) Eichstädt: The man rushed to the spot but found the black stone too hot to pick up until it cooled in the snow. 17) Hanau: A hot stone the size of a pea was picked up, weight 0.37 gr. 18) Harrogate: A hot stone, like basalt, fell accompanied by whistling in the air and lightning and thunder ... 19) Holbrook: One piece larger than an orange fell into a tree in a yard at Aztec cutting the limb off slick and clean and falling to the ground, and when picked up was almost red-hot. Von Achen, who saw them fall, reported that they were too hot to pick up. Two accounts state that they became lighter in color after cooling. 20) Lucé: several harvesters, startled by sudden thunderclaps and a loud hissing noise, looked up and saw the stone plunge into a field where they found it half-buried and too hot to pick up. 21) Magombedze: A 10-cm stone weighing approximately 600 gr survived the impact intact and was hot to touch. 22) Menziswyl: The farmers say that the stone fell with the lightning and shattered when it hit the ground; it was hot when they picked it up. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Henbury meteor craters
Patrick wrote: Images from a trip many years ago to Northern Territory, Australia's Henbury meteor craters: http://users.wirelessbeehive.com/~paw/HMCAPR88.HTML Hello Patrick, Beautiful shots but photo #9 is the one I like best because when I look at it, I feel the urge to crawl on all fours in search of shale pieces and/or Henbury iron individuals :-) Thank you for sharing! Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Henbury meteor craters
Thanks so much for sharing this great photo-series of the Henbury crater area, Patrick. Very impressing indeed. Landscapes do have their own spirit, and this one seems to be unusually special strong. And thank you for your actualization too, Norbert. Roaming wild camels spontaneously evoked a picture in my mind of the herd, making busy use of their cell phones. Technic changes our language and our perception too - I do know you described nomadizing camels, Norbert ;-) In any case, we've to imagine this area stark now and meteorite hunt seems to be finished there - not necessarily a melancholical thought as the 4 wheel bikes will vanish too and this great place will sink in silence again. Perhaps. Best to all, Matthias - Original Message - From: Patrick Wiggins p...@wirelessbeehive.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 6:15 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Henbury meteor craters Images from a trip many years ago to Northern Territory, Australia's Henbury meteor craters: http://users.wirelessbeehive.com/~paw/HMCAPR88.HTML patrick N Utah USA __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites
Thanks Bernd: This will help a lot! My guess is that warm means warmer than the air temperature, but probably not much warmer than body temperature since even 15 to 20 degrees Centigrade (125 to 135 degrees F) is considered hot. Given that some have been said to be frosty, and one always hears that they are the temperature of space, how many of the hot ones might actually be too cold to handle? Maybe that is the myth! I am very surprised that anything small that has had a chance to cool down in the atmosphere would still be to hot to handle on the ground. I guess I will just have to wait and see my own Fall and pick it up quickly! I wish I could find the old Lost City fall picture of the meteorite in snow. I do not remember seeing any melted snow around it, but it must have been warm enough to attract a dog. Larry Good morning Listees, Listoids, Listers, Here's a copy of something I posted many years ago (maybe 2004). Cheers, Bernd --- Meteorites - warm or hot to the touch? 01) The Binningup meteorite was recovered within a few minutes of the fall and was reported to have been warm to the touch. 02) Cabin Creek: Three hours after the fall, Mr. and Mrs. Shandy were able to find the hole and excavate the mass, reportedly still uncomfortably warm. 03) Glatton: was warm, not hot, when first picked up. 04) Gurram Konda: near the tent some small warm stones, which the Sentry has seen falling down. 05) Juromenha: The mass was said to have been incandescent when discovered and still warm when recovered next morning 06) L'Aigle: Affrighted persons who picked them up found the stones to be very warm and smelling of sulfur. 07) Limerick: It was immediately dug up, and I have been informed by those that were present, and on whom I could rely, that it was then warm and had a sulphurous smell. 08) Middlesbrough: The stone was new-milk warm when found, ... 09) Noblesville: The meteorite was not glowing as it passed the boys and was slightly warm when Spaulding picked it up a few seconds after it fell. 10) Pettiswood: The affrighted horse fell to the Earth, and two boys rushed to him in terror carrying fragments that Bingley found to be warm as milk just from the cow. 11) Pontlyfni: When I picked up the fragment of metal, or whatever it is, it was warm in my hand. 12) Rowton: It is, moreover, stated that when Mr. Brooks found the mass it was quite warm. 13) Tsukuba: Seconds later student Ryutaro Araki stopped to retrieve a still-warm stone that had fallen in front of his car near Tsukuba 14) Wold Cottage: Rushing to the spot he found a large stone, warm and smoking and smelling of sulfur. 15) Crumlin: When dug out the object, which had embedded itself in a straightdownward course for 13 inches, was found to be quite hot, continuing so for about an hour. 16) Eichstädt: The man rushed to the spot but found the black stone too hot to pick up until it cooled in the snow. 17) Hanau: A hot stone the size of a pea was picked up, weight 0.37 gr. 18) Harrogate: A hot stone, like basalt, fell accompanied by whistling in the air and lightning and thunder ... 19) Holbrook: One piece larger than an orange fell into a tree in a yard at Aztec cutting the limb off slick and clean and falling to the ground, and when picked up was almost red-hot. Von Achen, who saw them fall, reported that they were too hot to pick up. Two accounts state that they became lighter in color after cooling. 20) Lucé: several harvesters, startled by sudden thunderclaps and a loud hissing noise, looked up and saw the stone plunge into a field where they found it half-buried and too hot to pick up. 21) Magombedze: A 10-cm stone weighing approximately 600 gr survived the impact intact and was hot to touch. 22) Menziswyl: The farmers say that the stone fell with the lightning and shattered when it hit the ground; it was hot when they picked it up. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites
Thanks Bernd. From your data we have as score: warm: 14 versus hot: 8 I believe this can be completed by browsing through other archives or accounts of some recent witnessed falls ? Are there data reporting cold, frozen or alike meteorites ? Take care, Zelimir bernd.pa...@paulinet.de a écrit : Good morning Listees, Listoids, Listers, Here's a copy of something I posted many years ago (maybe 2004). Cheers, Bernd --- Meteorites - warm or hot to the touch? 01) The Binningup meteorite was recovered within a few minutes of the fall and was reported to have been warm to the touch. 02) Cabin Creek: Three hours after the fall, Mr. and Mrs. Shandy were able to find the hole and excavate the mass, reportedly still uncomfortably warm. 03) Glatton: was warm, not hot, when first picked up. 04) Gurram Konda: near the tent some small warm stones, which the Sentry has seen falling down. 05) Juromenha: The mass was said to have been incandescent when discovered and still warm when recovered next morning 06) L'Aigle: Affrighted persons who picked them up found the stones to be very warm and smelling of sulfur. 07) Limerick: It was immediately dug up, and I have been informed by those that were present, and on whom I could rely, that it was then warm and had a sulphurous smell. 08) Middlesbrough: The stone was new-milk warm when found, ... 09) Noblesville: The meteorite was not glowing as it passed the boys and was slightly warm when Spaulding picked it up a few seconds after it fell. 10) Pettiswood: The affrighted horse fell to the Earth, and two boys rushed to him in terror carrying fragments that Bingley found to be warm as milk just from the cow. 11) Pontlyfni: When I picked up the fragment of metal, or whatever it is, it was warm in my hand. 12) Rowton: It is, moreover, stated that when Mr. Brooks found the mass it was quite warm. 13) Tsukuba: Seconds later student Ryutaro Araki stopped to retrieve a still-warm stone that had fallen in front of his car near Tsukuba 14) Wold Cottage: Rushing to the spot he found a large stone, warm and smoking and smelling of sulfur. 15) Crumlin: When dug out the object, which had embedded itself in a straightdownward course for 13 inches, was found to be quite hot, continuing so for about an hour. 16) Eichstädt: The man rushed to the spot but found the black stone too hot to pick up until it cooled in the snow. 17) Hanau: A hot stone the size of a pea was picked up, weight 0.37 gr. 18) Harrogate: A hot stone, like basalt, fell accompanied by whistling in the air and lightning and thunder ... 19) Holbrook: One piece larger than an orange fell into a tree in a yard at Aztec cutting the limb off slick and clean and falling to the ground, and when picked up was almost red-hot. Von Achen, who saw them fall, reported that they were too hot to pick up. Two accounts state that they became lighter in color after cooling. 20) Lucé: several harvesters, startled by sudden thunderclaps and a loud hissing noise, looked up and saw the stone plunge into a field where they found it half-buried and too hot to pick up. 21) Magombedze: A 10-cm stone weighing approximately 600 gr survived the impact intact and was hot to touch. 22) Menziswyl: The farmers say that the stone fell with the lightning and shattered when it hit the ground; it was hot when they picked it up. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Lost City Fall Picture (was: Temperature of meteorites)
Larry wrote: I wish I could find the old Lost City fall picture of the meteorite in snow. I do not remember seeing any melted snow around it, but it must have been warm enough to attract a dog. Hello Larry and List, E.L. Fireman, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory - Sky Telescope, March 1970, The Lost City Meteorite Fall, pp. 154-158. Picture(s) on p. 156: *Within minutes* after discovering the meteorite lying on a snow- covered Oklahoma road, Gunther Schwartz took these pictures of it. *Snow had melted* around the stone and showed its black crust. Best wishes, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites
Greetings listees, ahhh the hot/cold debate rears it's head again. I appreciate Bernd's list of falls that seem to indicate warm more so than cold but there are many factors to consider when compiling data. In Bernd's list, how many of these warm specimens were observed by laymen?? Often there are other factors to consider and layman's observations can be often wrong. If a black specimen sits for very long in the sunlight it will absorb warmth and appear warm or hot. Things to consider, Fall dynamics. The space shuttles build up a lot of high heat during decent through the atmosphere. Shuttles have to cool for a while after landing. Meteoroids, depending on their fall speed, only pass through the atmosphere for a short period of time (seconds before dark flight) and don't have suffiecent time to build up heat. The ablating process often removes the molten material as the object falls keeping the specimen more or less at cold space temperature. Catching up or head on collision with Earth effects speed and temperature and fall dynamics. Spinning or stable flight (possible oriented specimen) affects temperature. Size of specimen and retention of cold from space. One thing for certain when thinking about the hot/cold debate. If meteoroids are heated up molten when they fall, then the chemistry would be altered and isotopes reset. Most meteorites don't have high heat alteration from falls or our ability to study them would be impossible. The age would be reset from the heating. The study of meteorites is the study of un-altered specimens from our solar systems past!! I tend to be a cold when they land believer but think a few can come down oriented and there is time for them to absorb some heat from the fall. Nininger investigated several falls seen by laymen that were frosted over but he was efficient at determaining facts based on the story tellers. There are a lot more considerations and facts about falls that are probably still not understood at this time. Fall dynamics are difficult to study unless you have an expert with equipment the second the fall occurs at the site when it happens. My hot and cold worth. --AL Mitterling Mitterling Meteorites __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Louisiana impact crater
I wish I could have met Paul when I lived in Louisiana, instead of a bunch of people who thought the Earth was only 3000 years old and man walked with dinosaurs. Great job on the discovery. Now let's wish him luck in convincing his backwards neighbors that a meteorite made the hole and not an angel or a democrat. On 11/23/10, drtanuki drtan...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear List, There is posted a news story about list member Paul Heinrich and his discovery of an impact crater in Louisiana: http://theepistlesofpaul.blogspot.com/ Great job Paul! Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone Meteorite Top List - http://meteorite.gotop100.com EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Looking for Fall 2010 Reports of Fireballs Observed in Southeastern United States
Dear Friends, Where might I find listing of observed fireballs / bolides for the southeastern United States? I am looking for fireballs / bolides that have been reported / observed within the states of Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana for the months of September and October of 2010. Any suggestions, citations to, or web pages where I can such information would be greatly appreciated. Best wishes, Paul H. in Louisiana __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites
I'd be very cautious with reports of perceived meteorite temperatures. How we feel temperature depends on many factors- the actual temperature of the object, of course, but also the temperature of our skin, the ambient air temperature, and perhaps most important, the thermal conductivity of the object. I think that in the majority of cases, the surface of the meteorite will be fairly close to ambient temperature- probably not more than ten degrees either way- which means that people will tend to be very poor estimators of temperature. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu To: bernd.pa...@paulinet.de Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 3:46 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites Thanks Bernd: This will help a lot! My guess is that warm means warmer than the air temperature, but probably not much warmer than body temperature since even 15 to 20 degrees Centigrade (125 to 135 degrees F) is considered hot. Given that some have been said to be frosty, and one always hears that they are the temperature of space, how many of the hot ones might actually be too cold to handle? Maybe that is the myth! I am very surprised that anything small that has had a chance to cool down in the atmosphere would still be to hot to handle on the ground. I guess I will just have to wait and see my own Fall and pick it up quickly! I wish I could find the old Lost City fall picture of the meteorite in snow. I do not remember seeing any melted snow around it, but it must have been warm enough to attract a dog. Larry __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] WANTED: Lot of Canyon Diablo
Original Message processed by Tobit InfoCenter Subject: WANTED: Lot of Canyon Diablo (23-Nov-2010 15:56) From:metopas...@gmx.de To: bernd.pa...@paulinet.de Forwarding this for Ingo whose posts don't make it to the List! -- Hi Listees! I'm looking for a lot of small Canyon Diablos; about 1 or 2 kg or so (depends on price). Let me know what you can offer me, off list please. Thanks a lot! Ingo/Germany (IMCA #2074) __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites
I'm not saying that every report is untrustworthy, nor am I saying there aren't a wide range of actual temperatures. I'm just saying that witness reports are almost always the least reliable source of accurate information, and should therefore always be viewed skeptically. Given a long list of reports, I'd expect most to be of low accuracy. Meteoroids in space can easily be too hot to comfortably touch; assuming the Kilbourn was initially large, and the recovered piece was hypersonic to a low altitude (perhaps 10-15 km), I can easily believe it was hot when it landed (although I doubt it was actually warm for three hours). As I noted previously, I don't think there is any such thing as a typical meteorite temperature. While most will probably be not far from ambient, many will still range from below freezing to uncomfortably warm. The wide range of actual temperatures, combined with the many variables that influence perception of temperature, are what create the very different reports we have about falls. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Dark Matter freequa...@gmail.com To: Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 8:21 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites Hi Chris, While I understand your argument, it is just hard to reconcile with reports such as this: Mr. Gaffney picked up the stone, but found it so warm he could hold it only for a second or so. It remained warm nearly three hours. When first picked up it had a straw color on its surface, but gradually assumed a black color. This excerpt is about the Kilbourn meteorite, a beautiful teardrop oriented barn hammerer. Here is my Accretion Desk article on Kilbourn: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2008/july/Accretion_Desk.htm There is a big difference between perceiving something as warm and being too hot to touch. Further, the color change is an interesting connection. Bernd, are there any other references you know of where a freshly fallen meteorite changed color? Cheers, Martin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD-54 Auctions Ending Today-50 Ending Sunday
Dear List Members, I have 54 auctions ending today, all started at just 99 cents with no reserve. I also have 50 auctions with make offer option enabled that are due to end Sunday, November 28th early in the morning. Now is a great opportunity to make an offer on some of these before they are cut into smaller, more affordable pieces. Please take a look if you can spare a few minutes. Link to all auctions: http://shop.ebay.com/raremeteorites!/m.html Thank you for looking and if you are bidding, good luck. Best Regards, Adam Hupe The Hupe Collection IMCA 2185 Team Lunar Rock __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites (Bernd's List)
I have a couple to add to Bernd's list. Both were picked up immediately after the fall: 23) Lixna: Two other workers who were harrowing a nearby field near the village of Lasdany saw another object covered in earth, which had impacted the ground only 20 steps away. One of the men touched the stone and burned his hand. The burn was later confirmed in a letter by the Count Plater Sieber as he described it as a reddened swollen area on the man's finger... 24) Sena: The fall at Sena took place around noon on November 17, 1773... a man named Miguel Calvo discovered a mysterious stone on the property of his neighbor, Francisco Gonzalez. He first moved it with his hoe and then by hand, but withdrew immediately because the stone was very hot... Sena also occurred long before the acceptance of meteorites and the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius, so there was no reason to be predisposed to any hot rock ideas. Fried ice cream, Mike -- Mike Bandli Historic Meteorites www.HistoricMeteorites.com and join us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/Meteorites1 IMCA #5765 --- -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of bernd.pa...@paulinet.de Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:06 AM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites Good morning Listees, Listoids, Listers, Here's a copy of something I posted many years ago (maybe 2004). Cheers, Bernd --- Meteorites - warm or hot to the touch? 01) The Binningup meteorite was recovered within a few minutes of the fall and was reported to have been warm to the touch. 02) Cabin Creek: Three hours after the fall, Mr. and Mrs. Shandy were able to find the hole and excavate the mass, reportedly still uncomfortably warm. 03) Glatton: was warm, not hot, when first picked up. 04) Gurram Konda: near the tent some small warm stones, which the Sentry has seen falling down. 05) Juromenha: The mass was said to have been incandescent when discovered and still warm when recovered next morning 06) L'Aigle: Affrighted persons who picked them up found the stones to be very warm and smelling of sulfur. 07) Limerick: It was immediately dug up, and I have been informed by those that were present, and on whom I could rely, that it was then warm and had a sulphurous smell. 08) Middlesbrough: The stone was new-milk warm when found, ... 09) Noblesville: The meteorite was not glowing as it passed the boys and was slightly warm when Spaulding picked it up a few seconds after it fell. 10) Pettiswood: The affrighted horse fell to the Earth, and two boys rushed to him in terror carrying fragments that Bingley found to be warm as milk just from the cow. 11) Pontlyfni: When I picked up the fragment of metal, or whatever it is, it was warm in my hand. 12) Rowton: It is, moreover, stated that when Mr. Brooks found the mass it was quite warm. 13) Tsukuba: Seconds later student Ryutaro Araki stopped to retrieve a still-warm stone that had fallen in front of his car near Tsukuba 14) Wold Cottage: Rushing to the spot he found a large stone, warm and smoking and smelling of sulfur. 15) Crumlin: When dug out the object, which had embedded itself in a straightdownward course for 13 inches, was found to be quite hot, continuing so for about an hour. 16) Eichstädt: The man rushed to the spot but found the black stone too hot to pick up until it cooled in the snow. 17) Hanau: A hot stone the size of a pea was picked up, weight 0.37 gr. 18) Harrogate: A hot stone, like basalt, fell accompanied by whistling in the air and lightning and thunder ... 19) Holbrook: One piece larger than an orange fell into a tree in a yard at Aztec cutting the limb off slick and clean and falling to the ground, and when picked up was almost red-hot. Von Achen, who saw them fall, reported that they were too hot to pick up. Two accounts state that they became lighter in color after cooling. 20) Lucé: several harvesters, startled by sudden thunderclaps and a loud hissing noise, looked up and saw the stone plunge into a field where they found it half-buried and too hot to pick up. 21) Magombedze: A 10-cm stone weighing approximately 600 gr survived the impact intact and was hot to touch. 22) Menziswyl: The farmers say that the stone fell with the lightning and shattered when it hit the ground; it was hot when they picked it up. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list
Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites (Bernd's List)
Hi Mike: I am still a fan of cold meteorites (yes I am biased), so is it possible that a burn is due to something very cold rather than hot? Larry I have a couple to add to Bernd's list. Both were picked up immediately after the fall: 23) Lixna: Two other workers who were harrowing a nearby field near the village of Lasdany saw another object covered in earth, which had impacted the ground only 20 steps away. One of the men touched the stone and burned his hand. The burn was later confirmed in a letter by the Count Plater Sieber as he described it as a reddened swollen area on the man's finger... 24) Sena: The fall at Sena took place around noon on November 17, 1773... a man named Miguel Calvo discovered a mysterious stone on the property of his neighbor, Francisco Gonzalez. He first moved it with his hoe and then by hand, but withdrew immediately because the stone was very hot... Sena also occurred long before the acceptance of meteorites and the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius, so there was no reason to be predisposed to any hot rock ideas. Fried ice cream, Mike -- Mike Bandli Historic Meteorites www.HistoricMeteorites.com and join us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/Meteorites1 IMCA #5765 --- -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of bernd.pa...@paulinet.de Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:06 AM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites Good morning Listees, Listoids, Listers, Here's a copy of something I posted many years ago (maybe 2004). Cheers, Bernd --- Meteorites - warm or hot to the touch? 01) The Binningup meteorite was recovered within a few minutes of the fall and was reported to have been warm to the touch. 02) Cabin Creek: Three hours after the fall, Mr. and Mrs. Shandy were able to find the hole and excavate the mass, reportedly still uncomfortably warm. 03) Glatton: was warm, not hot, when first picked up. 04) Gurram Konda: near the tent some small warm stones, which the Sentry has seen falling down. 05) Juromenha: The mass was said to have been incandescent when discovered and still warm when recovered next morning 06) L'Aigle: Affrighted persons who picked them up found the stones to be very warm and smelling of sulfur. 07) Limerick: It was immediately dug up, and I have been informed by those that were present, and on whom I could rely, that it was then warm and had a sulphurous smell. 08) Middlesbrough: The stone was new-milk warm when found, ... 09) Noblesville: The meteorite was not glowing as it passed the boys and was slightly warm when Spaulding picked it up a few seconds after it fell. 10) Pettiswood: The affrighted horse fell to the Earth, and two boys rushed to him in terror carrying fragments that Bingley found to be warm as milk just from the cow. 11) Pontlyfni: When I picked up the fragment of metal, or whatever it is, it was warm in my hand. 12) Rowton: It is, moreover, stated that when Mr. Brooks found the mass it was quite warm. 13) Tsukuba: Seconds later student Ryutaro Araki stopped to retrieve a still-warm stone that had fallen in front of his car near Tsukuba 14) Wold Cottage: Rushing to the spot he found a large stone, warm and smoking and smelling of sulfur. 15) Crumlin: When dug out the object, which had embedded itself in a straightdownward course for 13 inches, was found to be quite hot, continuing so for about an hour. 16) Eichstädt: The man rushed to the spot but found the black stone too hot to pick up until it cooled in the snow. 17) Hanau: A hot stone the size of a pea was picked up, weight 0.37 gr. 18) Harrogate: A hot stone, like basalt, fell accompanied by whistling in the air and lightning and thunder ... 19) Holbrook: One piece larger than an orange fell into a tree in a yard at Aztec cutting the limb off slick and clean and falling to the ground, and when picked up was almost red-hot. Von Achen, who saw them fall, reported that they were too hot to pick up. Two accounts state that they became lighter in color after cooling. 20) Lucé: several harvesters, startled by sudden thunderclaps and a loud hissing noise, looked up and saw the stone plunge into a field where they found it half-buried and too hot to pick up. 21) Magombedze: A 10-cm stone weighing approximately 600 gr survived the impact intact and was hot to touch. 22) Menziswyl: The farmers say that the stone fell with the lightning and shattered when it hit the ground; it was hot when they picked it up. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list
[meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites
Hi, Ursula Marvin has attributed many of the reports of hot stones with a sulphurous smell to a fire and brimstone expectation on the part of the observers, especially for the older historic falls. She notes that the reports of hot stones still exist - primarily due to what observers think a meteorite should be like when it is recovered - but the sulphurous smell seems to have subsided. She references a 1974 paper by Sears. See D.W. Sears, 'Why did meteorites lose their smell?', Journal of the British Astronomical Association 84 (1974), 299-300. See Marvin's chapter Meteorites in History in The History of Meteoritics and Key Meteorite Collections: Fireballs, Falls and Finds, G.J.H. McCall, A. J. Bowden and R. J. Howarth editors (Geological Society, London: 2007), 15-71. Her reference to the hot and sulphurous stones is on page 54. Mark Mark Grossman Briarcliff Manor, NY __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites
I recall an objective, quantified study of temperature history in meteorites which proved something about the hot/cold debate and internal temperatures. One of the Martians ( Zagami?) was studied for magnetic domain orientation in that the evidence of a martian paleo-magnetic field might have been preserved. It was. The study relied on the fact that the orientation of magnetite's magnetic domains would be reset if the meteorite had been heated above 165°(c or F ?). They had not if below 5mm What was discovered ,was that the magnetite domains more than 5mm deep had not been reset to Earth's magnetic field. What this says for internal temperature in this meteorite: any and all heat build up to give the surface a hot touch is restricted to roughly a zone 3-5mm deep. The thermal conductivity of silicates is low and as was said ablation is a very effective means of keeping the internal core temperature from rising at the expense of mass raised to the melting point and whisked away. I do believe that iron meteorites, having a higher heat conductivity co-efficient will retain much more re-entry generated heat and could feel warm several minutes. Otherwise I tend to believe the vignette reports such as those of the firemen in New England that reported a rind of frost forming on the broken meteorite as it lay under the dinning room table. Elton - Original Message From: almi...@localnet.com almi...@localnet.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 7:00:11 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites Greetings listees, ahhh the hot/cold debate rears it's head again. I appreciate Bernd's list of falls that seem to indicate warm more so than cold but there are many factors to consider when compiling data. In Bernd's list, how many of these warm specimens were observed by laymen?? Often there are other factors to consider and layman's observations can be often wrong. If a black specimen sits for very long in the sunlight it will absorb warmth and appear warm or hot. Things to consider, Fall dynamics. The space shuttles build up a lot of high heat during decent through the atmosphere. Shuttles have to cool for a while after landing. Meteoroids, depending on their fall speed, only pass through the atmosphere for a short period of time (seconds before dark flight) and don't have suffiecent time to build up heat. The ablating process often removes the molten material as the object falls keeping the specimen more or less at cold space temperature. Catching up or head on collision with Earth effects speed and temperature and fall dynamics. Spinning or stable flight (possible oriented specimen) affects temperature. Size of specimen and retention of cold from space. One thing for certain when thinking about the hot/cold debate. If meteoroids are heated up molten when they fall, then the chemistry would be altered and isotopes reset. Most meteorites don't have high heat alteration from falls or our ability to study them would be impossible. The age would be reset from the heating. The study of meteorites is the study of un-altered specimens from our solar systems past!! I tend to be a cold when they land believer but think a few can come down oriented and there is time for them to absorb some heat from the fall. Nininger investigated several falls seen by laymen that were frosted over but he was efficient at determaining facts based on the story tellers. There are a lot more considerations and facts about falls that are probably still not understood at this time. Fall dynamics are difficult to study unless you have an expert with equipment the second the fall occurs at the site when it happens. My hot and cold worth. --AL Mitterling Mitterling Meteorites __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites (Bernd's List)
I recall the Navarro house hammering stone of Park Forest reported as being almost too hot to touch. I believe her name was Toby Navarro but I may be wrong. She was actually working at her computer when the stone crashed through the roof, smashed a computer and hit a game box. She picked it up within seconds of it demolishing the room and told us that it smelt like an oven and was uncomfortable to touch due to heat. I have no reason to doubt her whatsoever. She is very religious and a person of honor. Mike Farmer purchased the stone after spending a morning in church with her as she prayed for guidance on how to deal with the stone. I offered her much more than Mike had but she had already made up her mind to sell it to him since Mike took the time to prayer with her and talk to her congregation. I was wondering what happened to Mike that morning since he was missing for 4 hours. Oh Well, you can't win them all. Best Regards, Adam . - Original Message From: lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu To: Mike Bandli fuzzf...@comcast.net Cc: bernd.pa...@paulinet.de; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 9:13:36 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites (Bernd's List) Hi Mike: I am still a fan of cold meteorites (yes I am biased), so is it possible that a burn is due to something very cold rather than hot? Larry I have a couple to add to Bernd's list. Both were picked up immediately after the fall: 23) Lixna: Two other workers who were harrowing a nearby field near the village of Lasdany saw another object covered in earth, which had impacted the ground only 20 steps away. One of the men touched the stone and burned his hand. The burn was later confirmed in a letter by the Count Plater Sieber as he described it as a reddened swollen area on the man's finger... 24) Sena: The fall at Sena took place around noon on November 17, 1773... a man named Miguel Calvo discovered a mysterious stone on the property of his neighbor, Francisco Gonzalez. He first moved it with his hoe and then by hand, but withdrew immediately because the stone was very hot... Sena also occurred long before the acceptance of meteorites and the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius, so there was no reason to be predisposed to any hot rock ideas. Fried ice cream, Mike -- Mike Bandli Historic Meteorites www.HistoricMeteorites.com and join us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/Meteorites1 IMCA #5765 --- -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of bernd.pa...@paulinet.de Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:06 AM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites Good morning Listees, Listoids, Listers, Here's a copy of something I posted many years ago (maybe 2004). Cheers, Bernd --- Meteorites - warm or hot to the touch? 01) The Binningup meteorite was recovered within a few minutes of the fall and was reported to have been warm to the touch. 02) Cabin Creek: Three hours after the fall, Mr. and Mrs. Shandy were able to find the hole and excavate the mass, reportedly still uncomfortably warm. 03) Glatton: was warm, not hot, when first picked up. 04) Gurram Konda: near the tent some small warm stones, which the Sentry has seen falling down. 05) Juromenha: The mass was said to have been incandescent when discovered and still warm when recovered next morning 06) L'Aigle: Affrighted persons who picked them up found the stones to be very warm and smelling of sulfur. 07) Limerick: It was immediately dug up, and I have been informed by those that were present, and on whom I could rely, that it was then warm and had a sulphurous smell. 08) Middlesbrough: The stone was new-milk warm when found, ... 09) Noblesville: The meteorite was not glowing as it passed the boys and was slightly warm when Spaulding picked it up a few seconds after it fell. 10) Pettiswood: The affrighted horse fell to the Earth, and two boys rushed to him in terror carrying fragments that Bingley found to be warm as milk just from the cow. 11) Pontlyfni: When I picked up the fragment of metal, or whatever it is, it was warm in my hand. 12) Rowton: It is, moreover, stated that when Mr. Brooks found the mass it was quite warm. 13) Tsukuba: Seconds later student Ryutaro Araki stopped to retrieve a still-warm stone that had fallen in front of his car near Tsukuba 14) Wold Cottage: Rushing to the spot he found a large stone, warm and smoking and smelling of sulfur. 15) Crumlin: When dug out the object, which had embedded itself in a straightdownward course for 13 inches, was found to be quite hot, continuing so for about an hour.
[meteorite-list] Stardust Spacecraft Burns for Another Comet Flyby
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2010-390 NASA Spacecraft Burns for Another Comet Flyby Jet Propulsion Laboratory November 22, 2010 PASADENA, Calif. -- Eighty-six days out from its appointment with a comet, NASA's Stardust spacecraft fired its thrusters to help refine its flight path. The Stardust-NExT mission will fly past comet Tempel 1 next Valentine's Day (Feb. 14, 2011). It will perform NASA's second comet flyby within four months. One comet down, one to go, said Tim Larson, project manager for both the Stardust-NExT mission and the EPOXI mission -- which successfully flew past comet Hartley 2 on Nov. 4. The trajectory correction maneuver, which adjusts the spacecraft's flight path, began at 2 p.m. EST (11:00 a.m. PST) on Nov. 20. The Stardust spacecraft's rockets fired for 9 seconds, consumed about 41 grams (1.4 ounces) of fuel and changed the spacecraft's speed by all of 0.33 meters per second (about 0.7 miles per hour). The maneuver was designed to target a point in space 200 kilometers (124 miles) from comet Tempel 1. Launched on Feb. 7, 1999, Stardust became the first spacecraft in history to collect samples from a comet (comet Wild 2), and return them to Earth for study. While its sample return capsule parachuted to Earth in January 2006, mission controllers were placing the still viable spacecraft on a path that would allow NASA the opportunity to re-use the already-proven flight system if a target of opportunity presented itself. In January 2007, NASA re-christened the mission Stardust-NExT (New Exploration of Tempel), and the Stardust team began a four-and-a-half year journey for the spacecraft to comet Tempel 1. This will be the second exploration of Tempel 1 by a spacecraft (Deep Impact). Along with the high-resolution images of the comet's surface, Stardust-NExT will also measure the composition, size distribution and flux of dust emitted into the coma, and provide important new information on how Jupiter family comets evolve and how they formed 4.6 billion years ago. Stardust-NExT is a low-cost mission that will expand the investigation of comet Tempel 1 initiated by NASA's Deep Impact spacecraft. JPL, a division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, manages Stardust-NExT for the NASA Science Mission Directorate, Washington, D.C. Joe Veverka of Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y., is the mission's principal investigator. Lockheed Martin Space Systems, Denver, built the spacecraft and manages day-to-day mission operations. For more information about Stardust-NExT, please visit: http://stardustnext.jpl.nasa.gov . DC Agle (818) 393-9011 Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. a...@jpl.nasa.gov 2010-390 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] claxton for sale
taking any reasonable offer on my 6.6 g claxton slice __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites (Bernd's List)
Herr Professor and List, Could the black fusion crust formed at the time of ablation absorb the sun's radiative heat during the dark flight fall? Or provide some form of insulating benefit? Count Deiro IMCA 3536 -Original Message- From: lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu Sent: Nov 23, 2010 9:13 AM To: Mike Bandli fuzzf...@comcast.net Cc: bernd.pa...@paulinet.de, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites (Bernd's List) Hi Mike: I am still a fan of cold meteorites (yes I am biased), so is it possible that a burn is due to something very cold rather than hot? Larry I have a couple to add to Bernd's list. Both were picked up immediately after the fall: 23) Lixna: Two other workers who were harrowing a nearby field near the village of Lasdany saw another object covered in earth, which had impacted the ground only 20 steps away. One of the men touched the stone and burned his hand. The burn was later confirmed in a letter by the Count Plater Sieber as he described it as a reddened swollen area on the man's finger... 24) Sena: The fall at Sena took place around noon on November 17, 1773... a man named Miguel Calvo discovered a mysterious stone on the property of his neighbor, Francisco Gonzalez. He first moved it with his hoe and then by hand, but withdrew immediately because the stone was very hot... Sena also occurred long before the acceptance of meteorites and the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius, so there was no reason to be predisposed to any hot rock ideas. Fried ice cream, Mike -- Mike Bandli Historic Meteorites www.HistoricMeteorites.com and join us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/Meteorites1 IMCA #5765 --- -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of bernd.pa...@paulinet.de Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:06 AM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites Good morning Listees, Listoids, Listers, Here's a copy of something I posted many years ago (maybe 2004). Cheers, Bernd --- Meteorites - warm or hot to the touch? 01) The Binningup meteorite was recovered within a few minutes of the fall and was reported to have been warm to the touch. 02) Cabin Creek: Three hours after the fall, Mr. and Mrs. Shandy were able to find the hole and excavate the mass, reportedly still uncomfortably warm. 03) Glatton: was warm, not hot, when first picked up. 04) Gurram Konda: near the tent some small warm stones, which the Sentry has seen falling down. 05) Juromenha: The mass was said to have been incandescent when discovered and still warm when recovered next morning 06) L'Aigle: Affrighted persons who picked them up found the stones to be very warm and smelling of sulfur. 07) Limerick: It was immediately dug up, and I have been informed by those that were present, and on whom I could rely, that it was then warm and had a sulphurous smell. 08) Middlesbrough: The stone was new-milk warm when found, ... 09) Noblesville: The meteorite was not glowing as it passed the boys and was slightly warm when Spaulding picked it up a few seconds after it fell. 10) Pettiswood: The affrighted horse fell to the Earth, and two boys rushed to him in terror carrying fragments that Bingley found to be warm as milk just from the cow. 11) Pontlyfni: When I picked up the fragment of metal, or whatever it is, it was warm in my hand. 12) Rowton: It is, moreover, stated that when Mr. Brooks found the mass it was quite warm. 13) Tsukuba: Seconds later student Ryutaro Araki stopped to retrieve a still-warm stone that had fallen in front of his car near Tsukuba 14) Wold Cottage: Rushing to the spot he found a large stone, warm and smoking and smelling of sulfur. 15) Crumlin: When dug out the object, which had embedded itself in a straightdownward course for 13 inches, was found to be quite hot, continuing so for about an hour. 16) Eichstädt: The man rushed to the spot but found the black stone too hot to pick up until it cooled in the snow. 17) Hanau: A hot stone the size of a pea was picked up, weight 0.37 gr. 18) Harrogate: A hot stone, like basalt, fell accompanied by whistling in the air and lightning and thunder ... 19) Holbrook: One piece larger than an orange fell into a tree in a yard at Aztec cutting the limb off slick and clean and falling to the ground, and when picked up was almost red-hot. Von Achen, who saw them fall, reported that they were too hot to pick up. Two accounts state that they became lighter in color after cooling. 20) Lucé: several harvesters, startled by sudden thunderclaps and a loud hissing noise, looked up and saw the stone plunge into a field where they
Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites (Bernd's List)
A dark crust certainly will absorb energy from the Sun during the fall. But that radiative energy gain is going to be a lot smaller than the convective loss from a stream of -40° air blowing across the stone at 100 m/s or so! I'd think a smooth fusion crust would actually provide better heat transfer than a rougher surface. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net To: lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu; Mike Bandli fuzzf...@comcast.net Cc: bernd.pa...@paulinet.de; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites (Bernd's List) Herr Professor and List, Could the black fusion crust formed at the time of ablation absorb the sun's radiative heat during the dark flight fall? Or provide some form of insulating benefit? Count Deiro __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites (Bernd's List)
Could the black fusion crust formed at the time of ablation absorb the sun's radiative heat during the dark flight fall? Or provide some form of insulating benefit? Maybe...but I'd think that the air it has to pass thru during this period would be quite cold and its passing thru would cool the outside skin quite quickly. The meteorite at this period would be cold on the inside and getting cold on the thin skin outside. GeoZay __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Cometary meteorites
Hello Elizabeth, all - The general informal consensus within the meteorite community has been that carbonaceous meteorites are cometary in origin. That being the case, a few questions: 1) At what compression/temperature will CO2 dissociate into Carbon and Oxygen? 2) Will Epoxi provide fine spectra data for trace elements such as calcium and aluminum? Platinum Group Elements? E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Hopewell meteorites
Hi all - Thanks Bernd for the citations. I suppose Steve and Geoff did not recover any organic remains from Brenham which might allow carbon dates, but then my guess is even if they had the dates would have been far too young due to neutron release in impact. Right now I am particularly interested in any data on ancient mirrors made from meteorites. Another topic - For Carancas, perhaps a variant of Boslough's new impact model may explain what was seen: the dissociated blast materials retained their momentum. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Fwd: Re: NASA Announces Comet Encounter News Conference
Elizabeth, I will bow to your authority on dog poop but, I was just asking about the degree of certainty NASA had about the water ice, CO2 and H2O. . I had no idea you would stoop to throwing the work done by the Johnson Space center under the bus. This work lead to the discovery of a new mineral. In hand. Not just remote sensors and pictures from over 400 kilometers away. Until Sterling's very explanatory response. . I had no idea how good and apparently accurate this spectrometry was. We can measure ice particles one micron in size at 400 kilometers? Holy super vision Batman! Also, I thought they were pretty sure about what they found when they discovered Brownleeite. . And the way I read it , they didn't just happen to do this. This was what they planned on doing and their mission was accomplished. Brownleeite was born. And by the way. Even with this release. NASA uses verbiage like *appear to be* fueled by water vapor. Seems they are always cautious about their claims. I also no longer fear getting hit by fluffy ice at 27,000 miles per hour. Even basketball size. Thanks though. All in fun. Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax Elizabeth Warner warne...@astro.umd.edu wrote: Carl, Not only do we have all of the spectroscopic evidence, we now also have the visual evidence that ties it all together for this comet. Yes, we know it is CO2 jets because we have the spectra that shows the CO2. We know where the gaseous H2O is located because of the spectral maps. We know where the dust is because of the spectral maps http://epoxi.umd.edu/3gallery/20101118_Sunshine3.shtml That was the point of the press conference -- that we have multiple lines of evidence! I don't know what you are talking about when you mention Brownleeite... I looked it up... Talk about indirect evidence... The particles of Brownleeite supposedly come from comet 26P/Grigg-Skjellerup only because they happened to have been collected during the Pi Puppid shower that is associated with that comet. But there is no other connection. Is there any spectroscopic evidence of that mineral in the comet? How can you confirm that that dust came from the comet and wasn't just cosmic dust from the asteroids colliding out there? Even in the press release they say likely and not definitively, so yes, I'm going to take my spectroscopic and visual observations of the comet over material collected indirectly and only likely associated with a comet. To try to answer some of your questions: So, wouldn't catching actual manganese silicate material spewed out of a Comet tell you at least as much about the make up of a comet as what the *visual only* of the H2O tells you ? Yes, if you actually caught material coming directly out of the comet. This brownleeite might or might not be from a comet so there's nothing conclusive there! We *captured* Brownleeite (manganese silicate) and we *observed* H2O!! Which scenario holds more weight for proof ? Yes, brownleeite was captured, but you don't know from where! We observed both visually and spectroscopically the H2O and are able to tie those observations directly to a comet. This brownleeite hasn't been observed spectroscopically and simply cannot be directly tied to a comet. Comets are not going to be large hunks of minerals. They are large aggregates of volatiles and dust. That dust maybe interesting mineralogically, but it is dust that is out in space that happened to get collected together with the snowball comets as they were forming. That dust could be almost anything, but it does not mean that finding pure hunks of whatever means that it is a piece of a comet. Even if they eventually tie that brownleeite dust back to the comet with spectroscopic and other evidence, does not mean that meteorites containing manganese came from comets, it's far more likely that they still came from asteroids. If you scoop up a bunch of snow and accidentally scoop up some dogpoop as well and mix it all together with some other dirt, does that mean that every pile of dogpoop is a remnant of a snowball? Carl, please spend some time reading the literature and learning about comets rather than just speculating throwing whatifs out there. Clear Skies! Elizabeth cdtuc...@cox.net wrote: Elizabeth, You express yourself much better than I do but, I still don't get your reasoning. It seems you are very quick to accept that what you *see* is dusty snow and CO2 jets spewing out H2O snow and you may be right. So, wouldn't catching actual manganese silicate material spewed out of a Comet tell you at least as much about the make up of a comet as what the *visual only* of the H2O tells you ? I mean if these jets are spewing out H2O from
Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites (Bernd's List)
Hi Larry, is it possible that a burn is due to something very cold rather than hot? Absolutely! There's the trick with the old clothes iron. Stick it in the freezer for a couple hours, take it out and tell someone to touch it. They'll say it is HOT! Of course, this is the perception of how they expect something should feel, which could be similar with fresh meteorites. What I still find interesting, though, is Sena. At that time, no one understood what a meteorite was and it was pre-Vesuvius eruption (theories of volcanic stones falling from the sky). To this man, it was simply a rock that appeared on the ground and was hot. He had no reason to embellish or lie and knew nothing of fiery meteors. Was it hot or was it really cold. We'll never really know. In the end, I think both hot and cold stones are possible, though it is interesting to note all of the historic falls with tales of heat. -- Mike Bandli Historic Meteorites www.HistoricMeteorites.com and join us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/Meteorites1 IMCA #5765 --- This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. -Original Message- From: lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu [mailto:lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu] Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 9:14 AM To: Mike Bandli Cc: bernd.pa...@paulinet.de; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites (Bernd's List) Hi Mike: I am still a fan of cold meteorites (yes I am biased), so is it possible that a burn is due to something very cold rather than hot? Larry I have a couple to add to Bernd's list. Both were picked up immediately after the fall: 23) Lixna: Two other workers who were harrowing a nearby field near the village of Lasdany saw another object covered in earth, which had impacted the ground only 20 steps away. One of the men touched the stone and burned his hand. The burn was later confirmed in a letter by the Count Plater Sieber as he described it as a reddened swollen area on the man's finger... 24) Sena: The fall at Sena took place around noon on November 17, 1773... a man named Miguel Calvo discovered a mysterious stone on the property of his neighbor, Francisco Gonzalez. He first moved it with his hoe and then by hand, but withdrew immediately because the stone was very hot... Sena also occurred long before the acceptance of meteorites and the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius, so there was no reason to be predisposed to any hot rock ideas. Fried ice cream, Mike -- Mike Bandli Historic Meteorites www.HistoricMeteorites.com and join us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/Meteorites1 IMCA #5765 --- -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of bernd.pa...@paulinet.de Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:06 AM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites Good morning Listees, Listoids, Listers, Here's a copy of something I posted many years ago (maybe 2004). Cheers, Bernd --- Meteorites - warm or hot to the touch? 01) The Binningup meteorite was recovered within a few minutes of the fall and was reported to have been warm to the touch. 02) Cabin Creek: Three hours after the fall, Mr. and Mrs. Shandy were able to find the hole and excavate the mass, reportedly still uncomfortably warm. 03) Glatton: was warm, not hot, when first picked up. 04) Gurram Konda: near the tent some small warm stones, which the Sentry has seen falling down. 05) Juromenha: The mass was said to have been incandescent when discovered and still warm when recovered next morning 06) L'Aigle: Affrighted persons who picked them up found the stones to be very warm and smelling of sulfur. 07) Limerick: It was immediately dug up, and I have been informed by those that were present, and on whom I could rely, that it was then warm and had a sulphurous smell. 08) Middlesbrough: The stone was new-milk warm when found, ... 09) Noblesville: The meteorite was not glowing as it passed the boys and was slightly warm when Spaulding picked it up a few seconds after it fell. 10) Pettiswood: The affrighted horse fell to the Earth, and two boys rushed
[meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites)
Hello Mark and list, Reports of some meteorites having a sulphurous smell have been of interest to me for several years now. My thanks to Mark Grossman for the mention of the Sears article (1974) and Ursula Marvin's speculations on the subject (2007). I've not seen either reference yet and am curious about both. While reports of sulphurous smells may have subsided, they have not by any means ceased entirely. This list had a lively thread on this subject back in the fall of 2007 soon after the Carancas fall. I'll recount a few salient points of that discussion for those who are new to the list. Visitors to the Carancas crater soon after the impact reported a sulfurous odor, and the symptoms of people who reported becoming ill at Carancas (irritation of respiratory tract, nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, dizziness, headache, skin lesions) are consistent with exposure to sulfur dioxide gas and/or to the sulfurous acid (H2SO3) that forms when sulfur dioxide dissolves in water (e.g. in the moist lining of the lungs and airways). One witness reported that meteoritic dust that had been stored in a closed container after being collected near the crater gave a sensation that she likened to the stinging of a thousand little bees when the container was opened and the vapors inhaled. Other relatively recent reports include: - The Tagish Lake fall in March 2000: The crumbly, black, porous rock fragments have charred, pocked surfaces and retain the smell of sulfur. (CNN) - The Park Forest, Chicago fall in March 2003: Colby Navarro stated, Plaster blew all over me and all over the upstairs; then I found the rock, then added that it was warm to the touch and smelled like the sulfur from fireworks. It is a well-know fact that sulfur is present in many types of meteorites. Ordinary chondrites contain on average 2.1% sulfur, and carbonaceous chondrites may contain as much as 6.6%. Sulfur in meteorites is normally present entirely as troilite (FeS), but other sulfides are found in some meteorites, and carbonaceous chondrites contain free sulfur, sulfates, and possibly other sulfur compounds. (summarized from B. Mason, Meteorites, p. 160) Less well-known is the fact that troilite dissociates at the rather low temperature of 427 C (Sterling Webb found this figure somewhere during the 2007 discussion). This releases elemental sulfur that can in turn combine with atmospheric oxygen to produce sulfur dioxide. The distinctive sharp smell that a match gives off when being lit is due to the sulfur dioxide formed when sulfur in the matchhead burns. Thus it should not surprise us all that much that we continue to hear reports of freshly-fallen meteorites having a sulfurous smell. It would be a natural consequence of heating troilite in air. Also interesting are reports that sulfurous odors may emanate from cut meteorites long after the fall date. From my own experience, I can relate that Darryl Pitt showed me a slice of Hvittis (fell in Finland, 1901, EL6) at the meteorite fair in Gifhorn, Germany some years ago (1999?) and suggested that I sniff it. There was a distinctive sulfurous odor, similar to the smell that a match makes when you light it -- not especially strong, but nevertheless unmistakable. The catalog of the Macovich Meteorite Auction at the Tucson mineral show in February 2001 mentions a smell of sulfur in the description of a Hvittis specimen, possibly the same one that I sampled in Gifhorn. There would seem to be good reasons to believe that the laws of physics and chemistry, and not just superstitious expectations, are behind these nose-witness reports. Best wishes to all, Piper __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites
Some points for the debate: The rapid flight through the atmosphere is very brief -- 1-2 seconds. This is not much time to change the temperature of the stone. The rate at which the friction-generated heat is transferred to the interior of the stone is determined by the thermal conductivity of that rock, and rock's thermal conductivity is very low, so low that virtually none of the heat will affect temperatures deeper than a few millimeters or a centimeter into the stone. Most of that heat generated by friction on the outer surface goes into melting rock which is then is removed from the meteorite by on-going ablation. The molten material stripped from the stone takes that heat with it as it becomes the particles in the trail (which have their own thermal evolution that does not affect the stone). Only a small fraction is wasted by warming the stone itself. That said, thermal equilibrium of the stone is likely achieved (or nearly) within a very short time once it lands. Its temperature will be more-or-less whatever it was before it encountered this obstructive planet. Apart from some rough treatment of the surface, the stone's temperature is the same as it always was. So, what temperature WAS the meteoroid in the many thousands or millions of years that it orbited the sun? That depends on what its orbit was, or more precisely, WHERE its orbit was and its emissivity and reflectivity and so on. Take a look at the following chart of Meteoroid Temperature vs. Solar Distance, supplied by MexicoDoug: http://www.diogenite.com/met-temp.html It is a model derived from fairly complete and reasonable assumptions, which were discussed on this List long ago: http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2005-January/007521.html This is the first of three parts; follow the links for #2 and #3. Those with more factors to include are welcome to refine the model, I'm sure. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu To: bernd.pa...@paulinet.de Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:46 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites Thanks Bernd: This will help a lot! My guess is that warm means warmer than the air temperature, but probably not much warmer than body temperature since even 15 to 20 degrees Centigrade (125 to 135 degrees F) is considered hot. Given that some have been said to be frosty, and one always hears that they are the temperature of space, how many of the hot ones might actually be too cold to handle? Maybe that is the myth! I am very surprised that anything small that has had a chance to cool down in the atmosphere would still be to hot to handle on the ground. I guess I will just have to wait and see my own Fall and pick it up quickly! I wish I could find the old Lost City fall picture of the meteorite in snow. I do not remember seeing any melted snow around it, but it must have been warm enough to attract a dog. Larry Good morning Listees, Listoids, Listers, Here's a copy of something I posted many years ago (maybe 2004). Cheers, Bernd --- Meteorites - warm or hot to the touch? 01) The Binningup meteorite was recovered within a few minutes of the fall and was reported to have been warm to the touch. 02) Cabin Creek: Three hours after the fall, Mr. and Mrs. Shandy were able to find the hole and excavate the mass, reportedly still uncomfortably warm. 03) Glatton: was warm, not hot, when first picked up. 04) Gurram Konda: near the tent some small warm stones, which the Sentry has seen falling down. 05) Juromenha: The mass was said to have been incandescent when discovered and still warm when recovered next morning 06) L'Aigle: Affrighted persons who picked them up found the stones to be very warm and smelling of sulfur. 07) Limerick: It was immediately dug up, and I have been informed by those that were present, and on whom I could rely, that it was then warm and had a sulphurous smell. 08) Middlesbrough: The stone was new-milk warm when found, ... 09) Noblesville: The meteorite was not glowing as it passed the boys and was slightly warm when Spaulding picked it up a few seconds after it fell. 10) Pettiswood: The affrighted horse fell to the Earth, and two boys rushed to him in terror carrying fragments that Bingley found to be warm as milk just from the cow. 11) Pontlyfni: When I picked up the fragment of metal, or whatever it is, it was warm in my hand. 12) Rowton: It is, moreover, stated that when Mr. Brooks found the mass it was quite warm. 13) Tsukuba: Seconds later student Ryutaro Araki stopped to retrieve a still-warm stone that had fallen in front of his car near Tsukuba 14) Wold Cottage: Rushing to the spot he found a large stone, warm and smoking and smelling of sulfur. 15) Crumlin: When dug out the object,
Re: [meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites)
Hi Piper, Interesting points. I have not seen the original Sears article myself, but Marvin mentions that Sears thought that meteorites contain too little troilite to generate the sufurous odor. No mention of other sufur compounds though. On the other hand, I know from my chemical safety and health experience that some sulfur compounds have extrememly low odor thresholds, such as the mercaptans, but those are unoxidized or reduced sulfur compounds, and I would think that any sulfur-containing vapors that were generated near the surface of the meteorite would be oxidized. So, it is an interesting question, and I am curious to learn of other people's thoughts on the subject. Thanks for the information. Mark Mark Grossman Briarcliff Manor, NY - Original Message - From: Piper R.W. Hollier pi...@xs4all.nl To: Mark Grossman mar...@westnet.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 3:03 PM Subject: sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites) Hello Mark and list, Reports of some meteorites having a sulphurous smell have been of interest to me for several years now. My thanks to Mark Grossman for the mention of the Sears article (1974) and Ursula Marvin's speculations on the subject (2007). I've not seen either reference yet and am curious about both. While reports of sulphurous smells may have subsided, they have not by any means ceased entirely. This list had a lively thread on this subject back in the fall of 2007 soon after the Carancas fall. I'll recount a few salient points of that discussion for those who are new to the list. Visitors to the Carancas crater soon after the impact reported a sulfurous odor, and the symptoms of people who reported becoming ill at Carancas (irritation of respiratory tract, nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, dizziness, headache, skin lesions) are consistent with exposure to sulfur dioxide gas and/or to the sulfurous acid (H2SO3) that forms when sulfur dioxide dissolves in water (e.g. in the moist lining of the lungs and airways). One witness reported that meteoritic dust that had been stored in a closed container after being collected near the crater gave a sensation that she likened to the stinging of a thousand little bees when the container was opened and the vapors inhaled. Other relatively recent reports include: - The Tagish Lake fall in March 2000: The crumbly, black, porous rock fragments have charred, pocked surfaces and retain the smell of sulfur. (CNN) - The Park Forest, Chicago fall in March 2003: Colby Navarro stated, Plaster blew all over me and all over the upstairs; then I found the rock, then added that it was warm to the touch and smelled like the sulfur from fireworks. It is a well-know fact that sulfur is present in many types of meteorites. Ordinary chondrites contain on average 2.1% sulfur, and carbonaceous chondrites may contain as much as 6.6%. Sulfur in meteorites is normally present entirely as troilite (FeS), but other sulfides are found in some meteorites, and carbonaceous chondrites contain free sulfur, sulfates, and possibly other sulfur compounds. (summarized from B. Mason, Meteorites, p. 160) Less well-known is the fact that troilite dissociates at the rather low temperature of 427 C (Sterling Webb found this figure somewhere during the 2007 discussion). This releases elemental sulfur that can in turn combine with atmospheric oxygen to produce sulfur dioxide. The distinctive sharp smell that a match gives off when being lit is due to the sulfur dioxide formed when sulfur in the matchhead burns. Thus it should not surprise us all that much that we continue to hear reports of freshly-fallen meteorites having a sulfurous smell. It would be a natural consequence of heating troilite in air. Also interesting are reports that sulfurous odors may emanate from cut meteorites long after the fall date. From my own experience, I can relate that Darryl Pitt showed me a slice of Hvittis (fell in Finland, 1901, EL6) at the meteorite fair in Gifhorn, Germany some years ago (1999?) and suggested that I sniff it. There was a distinctive sulfurous odor, similar to the smell that a match makes when you light it -- not especially strong, but nevertheless unmistakable. The catalog of the Macovich Meteorite Auction at the Tucson mineral show in February 2001 mentions a smell of sulfur in the description of a Hvittis specimen, possibly the same one that I sampled in Gifhorn. There would seem to be good reasons to believe that the laws of physics and chemistry, and not just superstitious expectations, are behind these nose-witness reports. Best wishes to all, Piper __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Alamo Impact Breccia - Sweet!
Hello Everyone, I just received a special delivery from UPS todayand let me tell you, this is some of the most beautiful material out there! I sent Marlin Cilz a large block of the Alamo Impact Breccia to make a few cuts and polish them up. No words can describe these so here are a few images: Alamo Impact Breccia: 10,930g end cut 29cm x 26.5cm x 10cm http://www.lunarrock.com/AlamoBreccia/dsc1.jpg 2401g end cut 25cm x 22cm x 3cm http://www.lunarrock.com/AlamoBreccia/dsc2.jpg 1300g slice 26.5cm x 23cm x 1cm http://www.lunarrock.com/AlamoBreccia/dsc3.jpg 1095g slice 25cm x 22cm x 1cm http://www.lunarrock.com/AlamoBreccia/dsc4.jpg I hope you enjoy the images! Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmh...@htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites
Sterling- I think you underestimate the effect of convective heat transfer during cold flight. A fist-sized meteorite might fall for a good three to five minutes through -40°C air, at around 100 m/s. That is long enough for the entire stone to equilibrate to that temperature. In the last minute or so of flight it will generally be in warmer air, and will therefore start to warm up- but probably not to equilibrium. The critical point here is that the meteorite will not maintain an interior temperature similar to its temperature in space. The exception would be a larger stone that remains hypersonic to a lower height, and therefore spends less time in dark flight. We don't really care what the temperature was for the parent's millions of years in space. For any given distance from the Sun, it shouldn't take more than a few days to reach equilibrium, and any meteorite can be assumed to come from a parent that was at 1 AU for that long. So the only real variable is emissivity. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb sterling_k_w...@sbcglobal.net To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu; Bernd Pauli bernd.pa...@paulinet.de; Larry Lebofsky lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites Some points for the debate: The rapid flight through the atmosphere is very brief -- 1-2 seconds. This is not much time to change the temperature of the stone. The rate at which the friction-generated heat is transferred to the interior of the stone is determined by the thermal conductivity of that rock, and rock's thermal conductivity is very low, so low that virtually none of the heat will affect temperatures deeper than a few millimeters or a centimeter into the stone. Most of that heat generated by friction on the outer surface goes into melting rock which is then is removed from the meteorite by on-going ablation. The molten material stripped from the stone takes that heat with it as it becomes the particles in the trail (which have their own thermal evolution that does not affect the stone). Only a small fraction is wasted by warming the stone itself. That said, thermal equilibrium of the stone is likely achieved (or nearly) within a very short time once it lands. Its temperature will be more-or-less whatever it was before it encountered this obstructive planet. Apart from some rough treatment of the surface, the stone's temperature is the same as it always was. So, what temperature WAS the meteoroid in the many thousands or millions of years that it orbited the sun? That depends on what its orbit was, or more precisely, WHERE its orbit was and its emissivity and reflectivity and so on. Take a look at the following chart of Meteoroid Temperature vs. Solar Distance, supplied by MexicoDoug: http://www.diogenite.com/met-temp.html It is a model derived from fairly complete and reasonable assumptions, which were discussed on this List long ago: http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2005-January/007521.html This is the first of three parts; follow the links for #2 and #3. Those with more factors to include are welcome to refine the model, I'm sure. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Question, Thinn sections
Hi List, I list I have a question about thinn section photos, Like the great photos Top Phillips takes. Those who study meteorite or classify them, Can they tell just by looking at the photos, if the thenn section is from a meteorite?? Can they tell if it is a Lunar or Martian meteorite from the thinn section photo?? Or do they need the thinn section in hand to put through a type of spectrometor?? And is that even enough to tell, or does all the other testing have to be done to tell if it is a meteorite, is a Lunar or martian. Thanks for any info. dave __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites
I was under the impression that it's a myth that direct friction from O and N molecules on the surface of a meteorite create the heat that causes ablation. I thought that ram pressure in front of the meteorite was the main factor in generating heat. The KE and PE would create a hot shock layer which would flow back around the meteorite causing its outer layer to melt. I would think that friction is a minor factor, unless you're talking about ram pressure as a kind of friction. Phil Whitmer --- Some points for the debate: The rapid flight through the atmosphere is very brief -- 1-2 seconds. This is not much time to change the temperature of the stone. The rate at which the friction-generated heat is transferred to the interior of the stone is determined by the thermal conductivity of that rock, and rock's thermal conductivity is very low, so low that virtually none of the heat will affect temperatures deeper than a few millimeters or a centimeter into the stone. Most of that heat generated by friction on the outer surface goes into melting rock which is then is removed from the meteorite by on-going ablation. The molten material stripped from the stone takes that heat with it as it becomes the particles in the trail (which have their own thermal evolution that does not affect the stone). Only a small fraction is wasted by warming the stone itself. That said, thermal equilibrium of the stone is likely achieved (or nearly) within a very short time once it lands. Its temperature will be more-or-less whatever it was before it encountered this obstructive planet. Apart from some rough treatment of the surface, the stone's temperature is the same as it always was. So, what temperature WAS the meteoroid in the many thousands or millions of years that it orbited the sun? That depends on what its orbit was, or more precisely, WHERE its orbit was and its emissivity and reflectivity and so on. Take a look at the following chart of Meteoroid Temperature vs. Solar Distance, supplied by MexicoDoug: http://www.diogenite.com/met-temp.html It is a model derived from fairly complete and reasonable assumptions, which were discussed on this List long ago: http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2005-January/007521.html This is the first of three parts; follow the links for #2 and #3. Those with more factors to include are welcome to refine the model, I'm sure. Sterling K. Webb - __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] More Native American meteoritic metal
Hi all - A big thanks to whoever posted the Native American meteorite paper pdf. Looking for some images, I found: http://torrivent.blogspot.com/2009_11_01_archive.html enjoy, E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites)
Hello Piper, Mark and Listees, I suggest that a well received and valuable scientific experiment for some energetic young graduate student, or doctorial candidate, would be to undertake the study of heating a suitable meteoritic specimen to the temperature encountered in atmospheric entry and reporting the results as to ablation, encrustation, temperature changes and residual presence of human detectable odors. Does anyone know if this has as been acomplished, or attempted? Published? Count Deiro IMCA 3536 -Original Message- From: Piper R.W. Hollier pi...@xs4all.nl Sent: Nov 23, 2010 3:03 PM To: Mark Grossman mar...@westnet.com, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites) Hello Mark and list, Reports of some meteorites having a sulphurous smell have been of interest to me for several years now. My thanks to Mark Grossman for the mention of the Sears article (1974) and Ursula Marvin's speculations on the subject (2007). I've not seen either reference yet and am curious about both. While reports of sulphurous smells may have subsided, they have not by any means ceased entirely. This list had a lively thread on this subject back in the fall of 2007 soon after the Carancas fall. I'll recount a few salient points of that discussion for those who are new to the list. Visitors to the Carancas crater soon after the impact reported a sulfurous odor, and the symptoms of people who reported becoming ill at Carancas (irritation of respiratory tract, nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, dizziness, headache, skin lesions) are consistent with exposure to sulfur dioxide gas and/or to the sulfurous acid (H2SO3) that forms when sulfur dioxide dissolves in water (e.g. in the moist lining of the lungs and airways). One witness reported that meteoritic dust that had been stored in a closed container after being collected near the crater gave a sensation that she likened to the stinging of a thousand little bees when the container was opened and the vapors inhaled. Other relatively recent reports include: - The Tagish Lake fall in March 2000: The crumbly, black, porous rock fragments have charred, pocked surfaces and retain the smell of sulfur. (CNN) - The Park Forest, Chicago fall in March 2003: Colby Navarro stated, Plaster blew all over me and all over the upstairs; then I found the rock, then added that it was warm to the touch and smelled like the sulfur from fireworks. It is a well-know fact that sulfur is present in many types of meteorites. Ordinary chondrites contain on average 2.1% sulfur, and carbonaceous chondrites may contain as much as 6.6%. Sulfur in meteorites is normally present entirely as troilite (FeS), but other sulfides are found in some meteorites, and carbonaceous chondrites contain free sulfur, sulfates, and possibly other sulfur compounds. (summarized from B. Mason, Meteorites, p. 160) Less well-known is the fact that troilite dissociates at the rather low temperature of 427 C (Sterling Webb found this figure somewhere during the 2007 discussion). This releases elemental sulfur that can in turn combine with atmospheric oxygen to produce sulfur dioxide. The distinctive sharp smell that a match gives off when being lit is due to the sulfur dioxide formed when sulfur in the matchhead burns. Thus it should not surprise us all that much that we continue to hear reports of freshly-fallen meteorites having a sulfurous smell. It would be a natural consequence of heating troilite in air. Also interesting are reports that sulfurous odors may emanate from cut meteorites long after the fall date. From my own experience, I can relate that Darryl Pitt showed me a slice of Hvittis (fell in Finland, 1901, EL6) at the meteorite fair in Gifhorn, Germany some years ago (1999?) and suggested that I sniff it. There was a distinctive sulfurous odor, similar to the smell that a match makes when you light it -- not especially strong, but nevertheless unmistakable. The catalog of the Macovich Meteorite Auction at the Tucson mineral show in February 2001 mentions a smell of sulfur in the description of a Hvittis specimen, possibly the same one that I sampled in Gifhorn. There would seem to be good reasons to believe that the laws of physics and chemistry, and not just superstitious expectations, are behind these nose-witness reports. Best wishes to all, Piper __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Question, Thin sections
Hello Dave, Interesting question. I am not a scientist, but because I sell a lot of thin-sections, I deal with many scientists, and very often, and I am told that Tom's pictures are very pretty but often at a much too high a magnification, so crystallization patterns, among others things, become difficult to see. I would suggest that you compare with the pictures, taken by John Kashuba, on my website: _http://www.impactika.com/TSlist.htm_ (http://www.impactika.com/TSlist.htm) (click on any Ref# highlighted in yellow). And see for yourself if you can recognize chondrules of various types, and other crystals. You could also read the Micro-visions articles in Meteorite-Times and the Centerpiece in Meteorite Magazine. And if you want to know how a microprobe functions, and what information you get out of it, then read the article I wrote for the IMCA news letter:http://imca.cc/index.php?option=com_wrapperItemid=185 I hope this helps. Anne M. Black _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) _impact...@aol.com_ (mailto:impact...@aol.com) President, I.M.C.A. Inc. _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) In a message dated 11/23/2010 2:21:23 PM Mountain Standard Time, whitefalcons...@yahoo.com writes: Hi List, I list I have a question about thinn section photos, Like the great photos Top Phillips takes. Those who study meteorite or classify them, Can they tell just by looking at the photos, if the thenn section is from a meteorite?? Can they tell if it is a Lunar or Martian meteorite from the thinn section photo?? Or do they need the thinn section in hand to put through a type of spectrometor?? And is that even enough to tell, or does all the other testing have to be done to tell if it is a meteorite, is a Lunar or martian. Thanks for any info. dave __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Cometary meteorites
Hi: I have said this to you before that there is about zero evidence that carbonaceous chondrites are from comets. There is only minimal evidence that there are hydrated silicates in comets and at least the CI and CM CCs very much aqueously altered and are consistent with an origin from C, B, and G (and maybe D) asteroids. Larry Hello Elizabeth, all - The general informal consensus within the meteorite community has been that carbonaceous meteorites are cometary in origin. That being the case, a few questions: 1) At what compression/temperature will CO2 dissociate into Carbon and Oxygen? 2) Will Epoxi provide fine spectra data for trace elements such as calcium and aluminum? Platinum Group Elements? E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Cometary meteorites
Tagish Lake is a very friable meteorite, which is postulated to come from the asteroid belt. See: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2001/pdf/1776.pdf Chris. Spratt Victoria, BC __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites
Heating is due to ram pressure for bodies larger than a few millimeters. For very small particles, ram pressure is not a factor because of the large distance between air molecules compared with the cross-sectional area. These small particles do heat up as the result of collisions with molecules, in a process that is analogous to friction. In other words, for all bodies that produce meteorites, frictional heating effects are insignificant. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:22 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites I was under the impression that it's a myth that direct friction from O and N molecules on the surface of a meteorite create the heat that causes ablation. I thought that ram pressure in front of the meteorite was the main factor in generating heat. The KE and PE would create a hot shock layer which would flow back around the meteorite causing its outer layer to melt. I would think that friction is a minor factor, unless you're talking about ram pressure as a kind of friction. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites)
Hi Count, For a meteorite with a sulfur-like odor, the experiment would be fairly straightforward for a well-equipped lab. Take the meteorite with a sulfur-like odor, place a piece or some powder into a glass vial fitted with a rubber septum, and then take a syringe and draw out some of the air above the specimen after it has equilibrated for a while. The air is then injected into a gas chromatograph, perhaps equipped with a mass spec. This may not work on some very small molecules, like hydrogen sulfide. Would be very interesting indeed to learn if this experiment has been tried. Mark Mark Grossman Briarcliff Manor, NY - Original Message - From: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net To: Piper R.W. Hollier pi...@xs4all.nl; Mark Grossman mar...@westnet.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites) Hello Piper, Mark and Listees, I suggest that a well received and valuable scientific experiment for some energetic young graduate student, or doctorial candidate, would be to undertake the study of heating a suitable meteoritic specimen to the temperature encountered in atmospheric entry and reporting the results as to ablation, encrustation, temperature changes and residual presence of human detectable odors. Does anyone know if this has as been acomplished, or attempted? Published? Count Deiro IMCA 3536 -Original Message- From: Piper R.W. Hollier pi...@xs4all.nl Sent: Nov 23, 2010 3:03 PM To: Mark Grossman mar...@westnet.com, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites) Hello Mark and list, Reports of some meteorites having a sulphurous smell have been of interest to me for several years now. My thanks to Mark Grossman for the mention of the Sears article (1974) and Ursula Marvin's speculations on the subject (2007). I've not seen either reference yet and am curious about both. While reports of sulphurous smells may have subsided, they have not by any means ceased entirely. This list had a lively thread on this subject back in the fall of 2007 soon after the Carancas fall. I'll recount a few salient points of that discussion for those who are new to the list. Visitors to the Carancas crater soon after the impact reported a sulfurous odor, and the symptoms of people who reported becoming ill at Carancas (irritation of respiratory tract, nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, dizziness, headache, skin lesions) are consistent with exposure to sulfur dioxide gas and/or to the sulfurous acid (H2SO3) that forms when sulfur dioxide dissolves in water (e.g. in the moist lining of the lungs and airways). One witness reported that meteoritic dust that had been stored in a closed container after being collected near the crater gave a sensation that she likened to the stinging of a thousand little bees when the container was opened and the vapors inhaled. Other relatively recent reports include: - The Tagish Lake fall in March 2000: The crumbly, black, porous rock fragments have charred, pocked surfaces and retain the smell of sulfur. (CNN) - The Park Forest, Chicago fall in March 2003: Colby Navarro stated, Plaster blew all over me and all over the upstairs; then I found the rock, then added that it was warm to the touch and smelled like the sulfur from fireworks. It is a well-know fact that sulfur is present in many types of meteorites. Ordinary chondrites contain on average 2.1% sulfur, and carbonaceous chondrites may contain as much as 6.6%. Sulfur in meteorites is normally present entirely as troilite (FeS), but other sulfides are found in some meteorites, and carbonaceous chondrites contain free sulfur, sulfates, and possibly other sulfur compounds. (summarized from B. Mason, Meteorites, p. 160) Less well-known is the fact that troilite dissociates at the rather low temperature of 427 C (Sterling Webb found this figure somewhere during the 2007 discussion). This releases elemental sulfur that can in turn combine with atmospheric oxygen to produce sulfur dioxide. The distinctive sharp smell that a match gives off when being lit is due to the sulfur dioxide formed when sulfur in the matchhead burns. Thus it should not surprise us all that much that we continue to hear reports of freshly-fallen meteorites having a sulfurous smell. It would be a natural consequence of heating troilite in air. Also interesting are reports that sulfurous odors may emanate from cut meteorites long after the fall date. From my own experience, I can relate that Darryl Pitt showed me a slice of Hvittis (fell in Finland, 1901, EL6) at the meteorite fair in Gifhorn, Germany some years ago (1999?) and suggested that I sniff it. There was a distinctive sulfurous odor, similar to the smell that a match makes when you light it -- not especially strong, but nevertheless
[meteorite-list] The Sun Steals Comets from Other Stars
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2010/23nov_aliencomets/ The Sun Steals Comets from Other Stars NASA Science News Nov. 23, 2010: The next time you thrill at the sight of a comet blazing across the night sky, consider this: it's a stolen pleasure. You're enjoying the spectacle at the expense of a distant star. Sophisticated computer simulations run by researchers at the Southwest Research Institute (SWRI) have exposed the crime. If the results are right, our Sun snatched comets from neighboring stars' back yards, says SWRI scientist Hal Levison. And he believes this kind of thievery accounts for most of the comets in the Oort Cloud at the edge of our solar system. We know that stars form in clusters. The Sun was born within a huge community of other stars that formed in the same gas cloud. In that birth cluster, the stars were close enough together to pull comets away from each other via gravity. It's like neighborhood children playing in each others' back yards. It's hard to imagine it not happening. According to this thief model, comets accompanied the nearest star when the birth cluster blew apart. The Sun made off with quite a treasure - the Oort Cloud, which was swarming with comets from all over the neighborhood. The Oort cloud is an immense cloud of comets orbiting the Sun far beyond Pluto. It is named after mid-20th century Dutch astronomer Jan Oort, who first proposed such a cloud to explain the origin of comets sometimes seen falling into the inner solar system. Although no confirmed direct observations of the Oort cloud have been made, most astronomers believe that it is the source of all long-period and Halley-type comets. The standard model of comet production asserts that our Sun came by these comets honestly. That model says the comets are dregs of our own solar system's planetary formation and that our planets gravitationally booted them to huge distances, populating the cloud. But we believe this kind of scenario happened in all the solar systems before the birth cluster dispersed. Otherwise, says Levison, the numbers just don't add up. The standard model can't produce anywhere near the number of comets we see [falling in from the Oort Cloud]. The Sun's sibling stars had to have contributed some comets to the mix. Comets in the Oort Cloud are typically 1 or 2 miles across, and they're so far away that estimating their numbers is no easy task. But Levison and his team say that, based on observations, that there should be something like 400 billion comets there. The domestic model of comet formation can account for a population of only about 6 billion. That's a pretty anemic Oort Cloud, and a huge discrepancy - too huge to be explained by mistakes in the estimates. There's no way we could be that far off, so there has to be something wrong with the model itself. He points to the cometary orbits as evidence. These comets are in very odd orbits - highly eccentric long-period orbits that take them far from our Sun, into remote regions of space. So they couldn't have been born in orbit around the Sun. They had to have formed close to other stars and then been hijacked here. This means comets can tell us not only about the early history of the Sun - but also about the history of other stars. We can study the orbits of comets and put their chemistry into the context of where and around which star they formed. It's intriguing to think we got some of our 'stuff' from distant stars. We're kin. Author: Dauna Coulter Editor: Dr. Tony Phillips Credit: scie...@nasa __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Question, Thin sections
Hi Anne, Thank you so much for the links! The article you written is outstanding! about the microprob lab. I have been searching for a article like that for a long time. And cannot wait to go through all your thin section photos you have for sale! I looked at a few photos and they are super nice! Thanks again! dave - Original Message From: impact...@aol.com impact...@aol.com To: whitefalcons...@yahoo.com; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 4:43:57 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Question, Thin sections Hello Dave, Interesting question. I am not a scientist, but because I sell a lot of thin-sections, I deal with many scientists, and very often, and I am told that Tom's pictures are very pretty but often at a much too high a magnification, so crystallization patterns, among others things, become difficult to see. I would suggest that you compare with the pictures, taken by John Kashuba, on my website: _http://www.impactika.com/TSlist.htm_ (http://www.impactika.com/TSlist.htm) (click on any Ref# highlighted in yellow). And see for yourself if you can recognize chondrules of various types, and other crystals. You could also read the Micro-visions articles in Meteorite-Times and the Centerpiece in Meteorite Magazine. And if you want to know how a microprobe functions, and what information you get out of it, then read the article I wrote for the IMCA news letter:http://imca.cc/index.php?option=com_wrapperItemid=185 I hope this helps. Anne M. Black _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) _impact...@aol.com_ (mailto:impact...@aol.com) President, I.M.C.A. Inc. _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) In a message dated 11/23/2010 2:21:23 PM Mountain Standard Time, whitefalcons...@yahoo.com writes: Hi List, I list I have a question about thinn section photos, Like the great photos Top Phillips takes. Those who study meteorite or classify them, Can they tell just by looking at the photos, if the thenn section is from a meteorite?? Can they tell if it is a Lunar or Martian meteorite from the thinn section photo?? Or do they need the thinn section in hand to put through a type of spectrometor?? And is that even enough to tell, or does all the other testing have to be done to tell if it is a meteorite, is a Lunar or martian. Thanks for any info. dave __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites)
Actually I use my nose. Cheaper and always with me . Chris Spratt Victoria, BC (Via my iPhone) __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Cometary meteorites
Hi Larry - And when I started on this list there were no major differentiated parent bodies for other meteorites (following McSween), and now we have what, at least five? I suppose that if we knew what comets were, then there wouldn't be any need to spend any money finding out what they are. And then there is that tricky problem of the source for C, B, G (and maybe D) asteroids. E.P. --- On Tue, 11/23/10, lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu wrote: From: lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Cometary meteorites To: E.P. Grondine epgrond...@yahoo.com Cc: warne...@astro.umd.edu, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Tuesday, November 23, 2010, 3:48 PM Hi: I have said this to you before that there is about zero evidence that carbonaceous chondrites are from comets. There is only minimal evidence that there are hydrated silicates in comets and at least the CI and CM CCs very much aqueously altered and are consistent with an origin from C, B, and G (and maybe D) asteroids. Larry Hello Elizabeth, all - The general informal consensus within the meteorite community has been that carbonaceous meteorites are cometary in origin. That being the case, a few questions: 1) At what compression/temperature will CO2 dissociate into Carbon and Oxygen? 2) Will Epoxi provide fine spectra data for trace elements such as calcium and aluminum? Platinum Group Elements? E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (wasTemperature of meteorites)
Hi Chris, True, but the nose can suffer olfactory fatigue with sulfur compounds such as hydrogen sulfide (after a few minutes you can't smell it anymore although it's still there - very dangerous, since the warning property of odor disappears). Mark Mark Grossman Briarcliff Manor, NY - Original Message - From: Chris Spratt cspr...@islandnet.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:40 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (wasTemperature of meteorites) Actually I use my nose. Cheaper and always with me . Chris Spratt Victoria, BC (Via my iPhone) __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Cometary meteorites
Hello E.P. All, We do not have examples of anything that even remotely resembles what actually constitutes cometary material. What follows is an excerpt from an email that I posted to the list on August 11th of this year that addresses the same subject. --- The simple answer is no. No meteorites have ever been found that match all criteria for what we believe cometary material should look like. http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/LPSC98/pdf/1004.pdf This is also the sort of topic that has been brought up again and again on the list. While I couldn't find any direct references for some reason, I was able to turn these up: http://www.mail-archive.com/meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com/msg84604.html http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2004-May/000683.html To condense: a few meteorites, namely the CI's, come close to what we think cometary material might look like. But those meteorites weren't/aren't associated with any known meteor showers, and are likely just fragments of D-class asteroids, which may or may not be remnants of burned-out comets (comets that got trapped in the inner solar system and stripped of most of their volatiles). But, based on the above paper, even the CI's are probably not actual cometary material, though they fit the bill better than most other meteorites, for sure. ... Some more basic reading: http://www.amsmeteors.org/faqm.html#11 Scroll to section before bottom: Meteorites from Comets? http://www.pibburns.com/catastro/meteors.htm --- The assertion that CI meteorites are cometary in origin goes against practically every detail of cometary composition that we have learned over the past several decades, and the even more general assertion that cometary meteorites have been found and recognized is thus simply untrue. We may or may not have samples of the other asteroid classes; that is a completely different issue, and if you'd like to start a new thread, by all means do so. Regards, Jason Jason Utas University of California, Berkeley 2012 College of Letters and Science Psychology, Geology On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 4:46 PM, E.P. Grondine epgrond...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi Larry - And when I started on this list there were no major differentiated parent bodies for other meteorites (following McSween), and now we have what, at least five? I suppose that if we knew what comets were, then there wouldn't be any need to spend any money finding out what they are. And then there is that tricky problem of the source for C, B, G (and maybe D) asteroids. E.P. --- On Tue, 11/23/10, lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu wrote: From: lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Cometary meteorites To: E.P. Grondine epgrond...@yahoo.com Cc: warne...@astro.umd.edu, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Tuesday, November 23, 2010, 3:48 PM Hi: I have said this to you before that there is about zero evidence that carbonaceous chondrites are from comets. There is only minimal evidence that there are hydrated silicates in comets and at least the CI and CM CCs very much aqueously altered and are consistent with an origin from C, B, and G (and maybe D) asteroids. Larry Hello Elizabeth, all - The general informal consensus within the meteorite community has been that carbonaceous meteorites are cometary in origin. That being the case, a few questions: 1) At what compression/temperature will CO2 dissociate into Carbon and Oxygen? 2) Will Epoxi provide fine spectra data for trace elements such as calcium and aluminum? Platinum Group Elements? E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of Day - November 24, 2010
http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_24_2010.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of Day - November 24, 2010
Hi Michael, Another awesome RFSPoD, thank you! Patrick Scientific Lifestyle Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 17:33:30 -0800 From: mich...@rocksfromspace.org To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of Day - November 24, 2010 http://www.rocksfromspace.org/November_24_2010.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Question, Thin sections
Thank You! If you are really interested by Microprobe, take the time to look at all the PDF files attached to my article. They are great, I just didn't have enough space. All the pictures you see on my Thin-Sections page were taken by John Kashuba, who also writes for Meteorite-Magazine and Meteorite-Times, so he knows what he is looking at! Do let me know if you have other questions. Thanks. Anne M. Black _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) _impact...@aol.com_ (mailto:impact...@aol.com) President, I.M.C.A. Inc. _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) In a message dated 11/23/2010 4:14:26 PM Mountain Standard Time, whitefalcons...@yahoo.com writes: Hi Anne, Thank you so much for the links! The article you written is outstanding! about the microprob lab. I have been searching for a article like that for a long time. And cannot wait to go through all your thin section photos you have for sale! I looked at a few photos and they are super nice! Thanks again! dave - Original Message From: impact...@aol.com impact...@aol.com To: whitefalcons...@yahoo.com; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 4:43:57 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Question, Thin sections Hello Dave, Interesting question. I am not a scientist, but because I sell a lot of thin-sections, I deal with many scientists, and very often, and I am told that Tom's pictures are very pretty but often at a much too high a magnification, so crystallization patterns, among others things, become difficult to see. I would suggest that you compare with the pictures, taken by John Kashuba, on my website: _http://www.impactika.com/TSlist.htm_ (http://www.impactika.com/TSlist.htm) (click on any Ref# highlighted in yellow). And see for yourself if you can recognize chondrules of various types, and other crystals. You could also read the Micro-visions articles in Meteorite-Times and the Centerpiece in Meteorite Magazine. And if you want to know how a microprobe functions, and what information you get out of it, then read the article I wrote for the IMCA news letter:http://imca.cc/index.php?option=com_wrapperItemid=185 I hope this helps. Anne M. Black __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Ram pressure question
Hi all, Could someone please explain what ram pressure is? Has it got something to do with when air is compressed it heats up so when a meteor passes through the atmosphere it compresses the air in front of it causing the air's temperature to rise and it's that heat that ablates all but the very small meteors? Many thanks, patrick N Utah USA On 23 Nov 2010, at 15:03, Chris Peterson wrote: Heating is due to ram pressure for bodies larger than a few millimeters. For very small particles, ram pressure is not a factor because of the large distance between air molecules compared with the cross-sectional area. These small particles do heat up as the result of collisions with molecules, in a process that is analogous to friction. In other words, for all bodies that produce meteorites, frictional heating effects are insignificant. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:22 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites I was under the impression that it's a myth that direct friction from O and N molecules on the surface of a meteorite create the heat that causes ablation. I thought that ram pressure in front of the meteorite was the main factor in generating heat. The KE and PE would create a hot shock layer which would flow back around the meteorite causing its outer layer to melt. I would think that friction is a minor factor, unless you're talking about ram pressure as a kind of friction. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Ram pressure question
Exactly. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Patrick Wiggins p...@wirelessbeehive.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 9:04 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Ram pressure question Hi all, Could someone please explain what ram pressure is? Has it got something to do with when air is compressed it heats up so when a meteor passes through the atmosphere it compresses the air in front of it causing the air's temperature to rise and it's that heat that ablates all but the very small meteors? Many thanks, patrick __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Well, that was fun!
We just had a relatively(!) minor earthquake here in Maui -- epicenter about 20 miles from me, a 4.6 or .7 Nothing but a rumble and a lot of startled patrons and library staff. Shaken but not stirred, Tracy Latimer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
