[meteorite-list] Move over, aerogel!

[MexicoDoug]

Just a note of congratulations to the group of Julia Greer at Caltech 
and Alan Jacobsen, Tobias Schaedler, at HRL Laboratories, et. al.


Aerogel used to be the world's lightest solid and found application 
from our perspective in the tennis racket Stardust used to trap 
particles from a comet.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/Stardust_Dust_Collector_with_aerogel.jpg

Well, vacuum prepared aerogel has a density of about 1.0 milligrams/mL.

Enter: metallic micro-lattice.  Density = 0.85 mg/mL.

"a lattice of interconnected hollow tubes with a wall thickness of 100 
nanometers, 1,000 times thinner than a human hair."


It's actually nickel based and is a metal!  On a microscopic level it 
is like a skyscraper's steel skeleton (lattice), and it has a memory to 
spring back to its structure when compressed up to 50 of it's thickness:


http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2011/11/16/334.6058.962.DC1/1211649s3.wmv

And it looks like a transparent metal!

Unlike aerogel, this one is probably not a dessicant.

Who will be the first listmember to get some of this hot material?

read more here:

http://features.caltech.edu/features/272

Kindest wishes
Doug
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Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Primitive Achondrite Question

[Richard Montgomery]

I knew my UCD background BS in systematic Entomolology would eventually come 
in handy within this List!  It is always the newly discovered species, and 
in our meteorological sense, the yet-to-be-discovered anomalous weirdo 
species or meteorite that shatters previous convention.


Having just re-read Dodd's text 1981 twice within the last year I am struck 
by how at that time lunar and Martian meteorites were 'ruled out' by the 
principal that 'none-exist'and we know now why that was 'so' 1981 and 
today isn't.


My sincere salute to you classifying meteoriticists for your stellar work 
and grounded principles (puns intended) for using all current and pending 
specimens now available for the work you do! (And for putting one's butt on 
the line many more times than twice.)


Sincerely,
Richard Montgomery


- Original Message - 
From: "MexicoDoug" 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 12:51 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Primitive Achondrite Question


Thank you Dr. Rubin, and Bernd for your observations as well! Some of us 
are now wondering what those looking back 50 years from now will think of 
the current system which one could gather is assumed to be an extendable 
foundation to accomodate future developments.


I have also been thinking all along how the modern zoological nomenclature 
has the same wars all the time over which classification blocks fit under 
which subfamilies, tribes, or other higher level constructs. If Alan is 
right, theoretically the pieces in a good classifications can just be 
rearranged as new generic relationships are determined.


I enjoy the 'heated discussions' after seeing first hand how two 
Lepidopterists can stop being on speaking terms just because of 
disagreement on which small butterfly is slightly MORE related to another.


Here's an excerp from Nabokov's Blues. Vladimir Nabokov was probably the 
most insightful classifier in recent Lepidopteran memory (he wasn't afraid 
to risk his reputation by going out on a limb and causing a ruckus among 
his opeers, and as it turned out he was right nearly about everything):


"Yet, dissecting and drawing only 120 specimens (compared with the 2,000 
in his big Lycaeides study), Nabokov proposed what he called "a rather 
drastic rearrangement" of the Latin American Polyommatini, naming in the 
process seven new genuses of Blues -- a reordering so thorough as to link 
Nabokov's name with the group forever if his study, preliminary and 
incomplete as it was, should stand up to re-examination by subsequent 
lepidopterists. On the other hand, if it failed, it would simply wind up 
as an idiosyncratic footnote of the Nabokov legend, a warning to others 
not to overreach, and Nabokov's detractors could say I told you so. In an 
interview for The New York Times in 1997, Charles Remington recalled that 
"eyebrows were raised when Nabokov published his research. A lot of people 
have been uneasy about how well his work would stand up under the scrutiny 
of good professionals."


Charles Remington was the founder of the Lepidopterists' Society, his 
counterpart would be Frederick Leonard of the Meteoritical Society, 
founded 14 years earlier.


Kindest wishes
Doug


-Original Message-
From: Bernd V. Pauli
To: meteorite-list
Sent: Tue, Dec 6, 2011 2:17 pm
Subject: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question


Hi All,

Alan kindly wrote:

"George Merrill's "The Story of Meteorites" from 1929:

There are andrites, eukrites, shergottites, howardites, bustites,
chassignites, chladnites, amphoterites, howarditic chondrites, white
chondrites, intermediate chondrites, gray chondrites, black chondrites,
spherulitic chondrites, crystalline chondrites, carbonaceous chondrites,
orvinites, tadjerites, ureilites, lodranies, grahamite mesosiderites,
siderophyrs, and more."

or Tschermak for that matter:

The meteorite types known to date are:

I. Main constituents are pyroxenes and plagioclase.
The crust is glossy.

- Eucrites (Rose). Augite and anorthite (or maskelynite).
- Howardites (Rose). Augite, bronzite, anorthite.

II. Pyroxenes and olivine form the main constituents.
The crust is slightly glossy to dull.

- Bustites* (Tschermak). Diopside and enstatite. (*bustites = now 
aubrites)

- Chladnites+ (Rose). Enstatite with a little anorthite.

+Only Bishopville at Tschermak's time but Bishopville is an aubrite (!)

- Diogenites (Tschermak). Bronzite.
- Amphoterites (Tschermak). Bronzite and olivine. (now LL chondrites)
- Chassignites (Rose). Olivine. (now SNC)

III. Bronzite, olivine, iron as main constituents.

Chondrites (Rose). Texture chondritic.

IV. Iron, forming networks, enclosing silicates: plagioclase, olivine,
pyroxenes, troilite.

- Grahamites (Tschermak). Plagioclase, bronzite, and augite, in iron.
(Vaca Muerta was a grahamite for Tschermak)
- Siderophyres (Tschermak). Bronzite in iron. (Steinbach)
- Mesosiderites (Rose). Bronzite and olivine in iron.
(Lodran (!) and Hainholz were mesosiderites for Tsch

[meteorite-list] This Week's Sale - Combo - AD

[Greg Hupé]

To All The Holiday Bargain Seekers...

Black Friday + OCD Sale + Other specimens combined.
Available specimens as of 12-6-2011
Make offers on anything without a price, you may just be surprised what I 
accept during the Holidays!!


Oum Dreyga (aka “Amgala”) H3-5 (All that I have listed here, recent sales on 
eBay $2.75-4.25/g)(my price only $2.25/g!!)

Fresh Fall from 2003 - Get it while it's Hot!!
223.8g 65% primary, 35% partially secondary crusted - $500.00
1) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0010.jpg
2) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0011.jpg
100.3g 97% crusted - $225.00 (on hold)
1) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0016.jpg
2) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0017.jpg
94.5g 75% crusted - $213.00 (on hold)
1) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0020.jpg
2) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0021.jpg
78.6g 98% crusted - $177.00 (on hold)
1) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0022.jpg
2) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0023.jpg
44.5g 65% crusted - $100.00
1) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0032.jpg
2) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0033.jpg
35.2g 85% primary, 15% secondary crusted -$79.00
1) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0040.jpg
2) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0041.jpg
34.4g 70% primary, 25% secondary crusted - $77.00
1) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0042.jpg
2) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0043.jpg
24.2g 65% primary, 20% secondary crusted - $55.00
1) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0050.jpg
2) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0051.jpg
23.3g 98% crusted - $54.00
1) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0054.jpg
2) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0055.jpg
22.8g 50% crusted - $51.00
1) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0058.jpg
2) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0059.jpg
20.5g 80% primary, 20% secondary crusted - $46.00
1) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0060.jpg
2) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0061.jpg
19.2g 96% crusted - $43.00
1) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0064.jpg
2) http://www.lunarrock.com/BlackFriday/img_0065.jpg

Thika, Kenya - Fragments from Greenhouse 002 Hammer Stone (TKW 330g)(email 
for pricing):

156.4g
1) http://www.lunarrock.com/kenya2011/Greenhouse002_frags/Greenhouse002a.jpg
2) http://www.lunarrock.com/kenya2011/Greenhouse002_frags/Greenhouse002b.jpg
66.4g
1) http://www.lunarrock.com/kenya2011/Greenhouse002_frags/Greenhouse002c.jpg
2) http://www.lunarrock.com/kenya2011/Greenhouse002_frags/Greenhouse002d.jpg

Seymchan Pallasite 62mm 563g sphere (Make Offer!)
1) http://www.lunarrock.com/seymchan/img_0093.jpg
2) http://www.lunarrock.com/seymchan/img_0094.jpg
3) http://www.lunarrock.com/seymchan/img_0095.jpg
4) http://www.lunarrock.com/seymchan/img_0096.jpg
5) http://www.lunarrock.com/seymchan/img_0097.jpg
6) http://www.lunarrock.com/seymchan/img_0098.jpg

Zagami part slice w/fragment(not shown) Total  1.906g (1.902g + 4mg)
1) http://www.lunarrock.com/zagami/img_0047.jpg
2) http://www.lunarrock.com/zagami/img_0048.jpg
3) http://www.lunarrock.com/zagami/img_0049.jpg

Taza 10kg Sculptural Individual
1) http://www.lunarrock.com/taza_10kg/taza_10kg1a.jpg
2) http://www.lunarrock.com/taza_10kg/taza_10kg2a.jpg
3) http://www.lunarrock.com/taza_10kg/taza_10kg3a.jpg
4) http://www.lunarrock.com/taza_10kg/taza_10kg4a.jpg
5) http://www.lunarrock.com/taza_10kg/taza_10kg5a.jpg

Ocate end cut 910g (Last piece)
1) http://www.lunarrock.com/ocate/specimens/nm910a.jpg
2) http://www.lunarrock.com/ocate/specimens/nm910b.jpg

NWA 482 Lunar (Last three pieces, except main mass)
1.926g part slice
http://www.lunarrock.com/OCD1/img_0001.jpg
578mg part slice w/ crust
http://www.lunarrock.com/OCD1/img_0002.jpg
376mg part slice
http://www.lunarrock.com/OCD1/img_0003.jpg

NWA 1946 LL5 - 76g Lot (some polished slices & fragments)(All that I have)
http://www.lunarrock.com/OCD1/img_0006.jpg

NWA 3118 CV3 – 2687.6g (All that I have, many great small pieces)(several 
50-100g lots not shown)

http://www.lunarrock.com/OCD1/img_0008.jpg

NWA 3160 Lunar (Last piece!)
182mg fragment
http://www.lunarrock.com/OCD1/img_0009.jpg

NWA 3171 Shergottite 1.51g (Last piece I have)
http://www.lunarrock.com/OCD1/img_0011.jpg

NWA 4473 Polymict Diogenite 4046g main mass (Make an offer)
http://www.lunarrock.com/OCD1/img_0012.jpg

NWA 5403 Brecciated Lodranite 176.166g (paired to NWA 4478)
http://www.lunarrock.com/OCD1/img_0013.jpg

NWA 6566 Polymict Eucrite – Amazing!! (Last three pieces!)
7.32g complete slice – $512.00
40mm x 33mm x 2mm
http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa6566/img_0002.jpg
7.23g complete slice – $506.00
41mm x 32mm x 1.5mm
http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa6566/img_0003.jpg
7.06g complete slice – $494.00
38mm x 33mm x 1.5mm
http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa6566/img_0004.jpg

NWA 6704 1414g main mass
120mm x 90mm x 55mm
1) http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa6704/masses/nwa6704_1414a.jpg
2) http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa6704/masses/nwa6704_1414b.jpg
3) h

Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question

[cdtucson]

Alan,
I agree with Darryl. Very fascinating conversation.
Speaking of tidy categories. 
How do you feel about the following suggested  case for replacing the current 
obsolete metallurgy system for classifying Iron meteorites?  see link;

http://meteormetals.com/Case_for_New_Meteorite_Metallurgy.pdf

Cheers,
Carl
meteoritemax

 Alan Rubin  wrote: 
> Classifications are just a way of making sense of the world by putting 
> diverse objects into tidy categories.  Even though real-world objects don't 
> always fit (is light a wave or a particle?), good classifications last 
> longer than interpretations.  For example, the Linnaeus classification 
> system was developed from a creationist perspective but is used today by 
> every evolutionary biologist.  So, to answer your question, classification 
> is an end in itself -- it certainly helps in understanding relationships 
> among diverse objects.  But classification is not the only end --  
> understanding the origins of objects is also rather important, but because 
> we have incomplete knowledge of objects, our interpretations are always 
> tentative, subject to revision when new data are acquired.  Classifications 
> should be longer-lasting.
> As an aside, if you are interested in bad classification systems for 
> meteorites, look at George Merrill's "The Story of Meteorites" from 1929: 
> There are andrites, eukrites, shergottites, howardites, bustites, 
> chassignites, chladnites, amphoterites, howarditic chondrites, white 
> chondrites, intermediate chondrites, gray chondrites, black chondrites, 
> spherulitic chondrites, crystalline chondrites, carbonaceous chondrites, 
> orvinites, tadjerites, ureilites, lodranies, grahamite mesosiderites, 
> siderophyrs, and more.  Some of the groups are still recogniable, others 
> less so.  The problem was that the knowledge base at the time was 
> insufficient to distinguish essential from secondary properties.  Similar 
> problems arose among classification schemes of living creatures and 
> especially fossils.
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> Alan Rubin
> Institute of Geophysics and Planetary Physics
> University of California
> 3845 Slichter Hall
> 603 Charles Young Dr. E
> Los Angeles, CA  90095-1567
> phone: 310-825-3202
> e-mail: aeru...@ucla.edu
> website: http://cosmochemists.igpp.ucla.edu/Rubin.html
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "MexicoDoug" 
> To: ; 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 9:31 AM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question
> 
> 
> > Adam wrote:
> >
> > "NWA 3133 is a CV Primitive Achondrite"
> >
> > Hi Adam, thanks ... The asteroid belt ought to be called the asteroid zoo!
> >
> > The question I have on this one, if CV is for certain, would be whether it 
> > is the result of a collision with a typical CV type, or is it certain that 
> > it is a fully baked CV (what happened to the possible CAI's - are there 
> > any, or is the CV possibly just impact regolith?), or, whether some 
> > innocent CV got hot all by itself.
> >
> >
> > Kinest wishes
> > Doug
> >
> > (Why does my wallet retract down my pocket every time ths stuff comes up!)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Adam Hupe 
> > To: Adam 
> > Sent: Tue, Dec 6, 2011 11:47 am
> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question
> >
> >
> > Doug wrote: I can't wait until someone turns up a CV6+. Theoretically, 
> > there is
> > no reason to
> > bar the possibility,, or is there...
> >
> > NWA 3133 is a CV Primitive Achondrite
> >
> > All of these oxygen isotope compositions
> > plot on the CV3 mixing line, suggesting that this achondritic meteorite 
> > has
> > affinities with CV chondrites (Irving et al., 2004).
> >
> > __
> > Visit the Archives at 
> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> >
> > __
> > Visit the Archives at 
> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> > 
> 
> __
> Visit the Archives at 
> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
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Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question

[Alan Rubin]

   It seems that the primary classification of iron meteorites is best done 
by compositon, i.e., comparing the Ga-Ge, Ir-Ni, Cu-As ratios etc. of 
different irons on diagrams and look for relationships.  This is what gives 
rise to the IAB, IVA, IIIAB groups etc.  Most groups are called "magmatic" 
because their trends on such diagrams are consistent with fractional 
crystallization inside a molten core.  A few groups (IAB-IIICD and IIE) are 
called "non-magmatic" because their trends are inconsistent with fractional 
crystallization.  Some researchers believe that all of these irons (magmatic 
and non-magmatic alike) are derived from the cores of differentiated 
asteroids or from large melt pods inside melted asteroids.  Other 
researchers (particularly John Wasson) think that the non-magmatic irons are 
impact melts formed at the surfaces of chondritic bodies.  I agree with 
Wasson.  Many of the non-magmatic irons have silicate inclusions that are 
roughly chondritic in bulk composition and contain "planetary-type" rare 
gases as do chondrites.
   In any case, the structures of irons (coarse octahedrite, ataxite, 
hexahedrite) are secondary properties influenced by cooling rate and 
nucleation; the primary properties are the bulk chemical and isotopic 
compositions of the irons.

Alan


Alan Rubin
Institute of Geophysics and Planetary Physics
University of California
3845 Slichter Hall
603 Charles Young Dr. E
Los Angeles, CA  90095-1567
phone: 310-825-3202
e-mail: aeru...@ucla.edu
website: http://cosmochemists.igpp.ucla.edu/Rubin.html


- Original Message - 
From: 
To: ; "Alan Rubin" ; 


Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question



Alan,
I agree with Darryl. Very fascinating conversation.
Speaking of tidy categories.
How do you feel about the following suggested  case for replacing the 
current obsolete metallurgy system for classifying Iron meteorites?  see 
link;


http://meteormetals.com/Case_for_New_Meteorite_Metallurgy.pdf

Cheers,
Carl
meteoritemax

 Alan Rubin  wrote:

Classifications are just a way of making sense of the world by putting
diverse objects into tidy categories.  Even though real-world objects 
don't

always fit (is light a wave or a particle?), good classifications last
longer than interpretations.  For example, the Linnaeus classification
system was developed from a creationist perspective but is used today by
every evolutionary biologist.  So, to answer your question, 
classification

is an end in itself -- it certainly helps in understanding relationships
among diverse objects.  But classification is not the only end --
understanding the origins of objects is also rather important, but 
because

we have incomplete knowledge of objects, our interpretations are always
tentative, subject to revision when new data are acquired. 
Classifications

should be longer-lasting.
As an aside, if you are interested in bad classification systems for
meteorites, look at George Merrill's "The Story of Meteorites" from 1929:
There are andrites, eukrites, shergottites, howardites, bustites,
chassignites, chladnites, amphoterites, howarditic chondrites, white
chondrites, intermediate chondrites, gray chondrites, black chondrites,
spherulitic chondrites, crystalline chondrites, carbonaceous chondrites,
orvinites, tadjerites, ureilites, lodranies, grahamite mesosiderites,
siderophyrs, and more.  Some of the groups are still recogniable, others
less so.  The problem was that the knowledge base at the time was
insufficient to distinguish essential from secondary properties.  Similar
problems arose among classification schemes of living creatures and
especially fossils.

Alan


Alan Rubin
Institute of Geophysics and Planetary Physics
University of California
3845 Slichter Hall
603 Charles Young Dr. E
Los Angeles, CA  90095-1567
phone: 310-825-3202
e-mail: aeru...@ucla.edu
website: http://cosmochemists.igpp.ucla.edu/Rubin.html


- Original Message - 
From: "MexicoDoug" 

To: ; 
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question


> Adam wrote:
>
> "NWA 3133 is a CV Primitive Achondrite"
>
> Hi Adam, thanks ... The asteroid belt ought to be called the asteroid 
> zoo!

>
> The question I have on this one, if CV is for certain, would be whether 
> it
> is the result of a collision with a typical CV type, or is it certain 
> that

> it is a fully baked CV (what happened to the possible CAI's - are there
> any, or is the CV possibly just impact regolith?), or, whether some
> innocent CV got hot all by itself.
>
>
> Kinest wishes
> Doug
>
> (Why does my wallet retract down my pocket every time ths stuff comes 
> up!)

>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Adam Hupe 
> To: Adam 
> Sent: Tue, Dec 6, 2011 11:47 am
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question
>
>
> Doug wrote: I can't wait until someone turns up a CV6+. Theoretically,
> there is
> no rea

[meteorite-list] Fwd: Primitive Achondrite Question

[MexicoDoug]

Thank you Dr. Rubin, and Bernd for your observations as well!  Some of 
us are now wondering what those looking back 50 years from now will 
think of the current system which one could gather is assumed to be 
an extendable foundation to accomodate future developments.

 
I have also been thinking all along how the modern zoological 
nomenclature has the same wars all the time over which classification 
blocks fit under which subfamilies, tribes, or other higher level 
constructs.  If Alan is right, theoretically the pieces in a good 
classifications can just be rearranged as new generic relationships are 
determined.

 
I enjoy the 'heated discussions' after seeing first hand how two 
Lepidopterists can stop being on speaking terms just because of 
disagreement on which small butterfly is slightly MORE related to 
another.

 
Here's an excerp from Nabokov's Blues.  Vladimir Nabokov was probably 
the most insightful classifier in recent Lepidopteran memory (he wasn't 
afraid to risk his reputation by going out on a limb and causing a 
ruckus among his opeers, and as it turned out he was right nearly about 
everything):

 
"Yet, dissecting and drawing only 120 specimens (compared with the 
2,000 in his big Lycaeides study), Nabokov proposed what he called "a 
rather drastic rearrangement" of the Latin American Polyommatini, 
naming in the process seven new genuses of Blues -- a reordering so 
thorough as to link Nabokov's name with the group forever if his study, 
preliminary and incomplete as it was, should stand up to re-examination 
by subsequent lepidopterists. On the other hand, if it failed, it would 
simply wind up as an idiosyncratic footnote of the Nabokov legend, a 
warning to others not to overreach, and Nabokov's detractors could say 
I told you so. In an interview for The New York Times in 1997, Charles 
Remington recalled that "eyebrows were raised when Nabokov published 
his research. A lot of people have been uneasy about how well his work 
would stand up under the scrutiny of good professionals."

 
Charles Remington was the founder of the Lepidopterists' Society, his 
counterpart would be Frederick Leonard of the Meteoritical Society, 
founded 14 years earlier.

 
Kindest wishes
Doug


-Original Message-
From: Bernd V. Pauli
To: meteorite-list
Sent: Tue, Dec 6, 2011 2:17 pm
Subject: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question


Hi All,

Alan kindly wrote:

"George Merrill's "The Story of Meteorites" from 1929:

There are andrites, eukrites, shergottites, howardites, bustites,
chassignites, chladnites, amphoterites, howarditic chondrites, white
chondrites, intermediate chondrites, gray chondrites, black chondrites,
spherulitic chondrites, crystalline chondrites, carbonaceous 
chondrites,

orvinites, tadjerites, ureilites, lodranies, grahamite mesosiderites,
siderophyrs, and more."

or Tschermak for that matter:

The meteorite types known to date are:

I. Main constituents are pyroxenes and plagioclase.
The crust is glossy.

- Eucrites (Rose). Augite and anorthite (or maskelynite).
- Howardites (Rose). Augite, bronzite, anorthite.

II. Pyroxenes and olivine form the main constituents.
The crust is slightly glossy to dull.

- Bustites* (Tschermak). Diopside and enstatite. (*bustites = now 
aubrites)

- Chladnites+ (Rose). Enstatite with a little anorthite.

+Only Bishopville at Tschermak's time but Bishopville is an aubrite (!)

- Diogenites (Tschermak). Bronzite.
- Amphoterites (Tschermak). Bronzite and olivine. (now LL chondrites)
- Chassignites (Rose). Olivine. (now SNC)

III. Bronzite, olivine, iron as main constituents.

Chondrites (Rose). Texture chondritic.

IV. Iron, forming networks, enclosing silicates: plagioclase, olivine,
pyroxenes, troilite.

- Grahamites (Tschermak). Plagioclase, bronzite, and augite, in iron.
(Vaca Muerta was a grahamite for Tschermak)
- Siderophyres (Tschermak). Bronzite in iron. (Steinbach)
- Mesosiderites (Rose). Bronzite and olivine in iron.
(Lodran (!) and Hainholz were mesosiderites for Tschermak)
- Pallasites (Rose) Olivine in iron.

V. Iron with subordinate troilite, schreibersite, etc.

- Iron meteorites

Tschermak omitted the name "shalkite" proposed by Rose because
reports on the composition of Shalka were contradictory at that time.

Reference:

TSCHERMAK G. (1885) Die mikroskopische Beschaffenheit
der Meteoriten (Stuttgart E. Schweizerbart'sche Verlagshandlung,
E. Koch, 23 pp.).

English Translation: The Microscopic Properties of Meteorites, Vol. 4,
No. 6 (Smithsonian Contributions to Astrophysics, Washington, D.C., 
1964).


Cheers,

Bernd


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Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question

[Darryl Pitt]

Hiya, 

Just ramping into this thread---which fascinates.   Thank you!

All best / Darryl
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[meteorite-list] MESSENGER Team Presents Latest Mercury Findings at AGU Fall Meeting

[Ron Baalke]

http://messenger.jhuapl.edu/news_room/details.php?id=190

MESSENGER Mission News
December 5, 2011

MESSENGER Team Presents Latest Mercury Findings at AGU Fall Meeting

Members of the MESSENGER team will present a broad range of findings
from the spacecraft's orbital investigation of Mercury during the 2011
Fall Meeting of the American Geophysical Union (AGU), which takes place
this week, December 5-9, in San Francisco. In 63 oral and poster
presentations spanning 13 technical sessions, team scientists will
report on the analysis and interpretation of observations made by
MESSENGER's instruments since the spacecraft entered orbit around
Mercury in March 2011.

The majority of the MESSENGER papers will be given in three special
sessions on December 8. Those papers will report new findings on the
topography and gravity field of Mercury's northern hemisphere, Mercury's
internal structure and dynamics, the elemental composition of Mercury's
surface, the variation of Mercury's surface spectral reflectance,
Mercury's distinctive hollows, plains volcanism on Mercury,
characteristics of impact craters on Mercury, deformation of Mercury's
surface, Mercury's internal magnetic field, the structure and
variability of Mercury's exosphere, the structure and dynamics of
Mercury's magnetosphere, energetic particles and plasma ions in
Mercury's vicinity, and Mercury's interplanetary environment.

MESSENGER Principal Investigator Sean Solomon will also deliver AGU's
Shoemaker Lecture to provide an overview of all that's been discovered
about the innermost planet.

Many of these presentations will be available by video on demand. To
view the sessions, visit the AGU Fall Meeting web page at
http://sites.agu.org/fallmeeting/scientific-program/sessions-on-demand/
and click on the appropriate session at the scheduled time (Pacific time).



New MESSENGER Mosaics Available for Download

MESSENGER mosaics that can be explored interactively using the ACT-REACT
QuickMap

software tool are now available for downloading. These mosaics were
created using images from the first two months of MESSENGER's orbital
operations, released by NASA's Planetary Data System on September 8,
2011. The mosaic shown here

is at 5 km/pixel, but this mosaic is also available at resolutions of
2.5 km/pixel, 1 km/pixel, and 250 m/pixel. High-resolution mosaics of
the polar regions are also available.

All mosaics are available for downloading at the Global Mosaics page
.



MESSENGER Executes Final Orbit Correction Maneuver of Primary Science Mission

The MESSENGER spacecraft successfully completed a fifth orbit-correction
maneuver today to lower MESSENGER's periapsis altitude from 442 to 200
kilometers and decrease the orbital period from 12 hours to 11 hours and
47 minutes.

MESSENGER was 102 million kilometers (63.4 million miles) from Earth
when the 291-second maneuver began at 11:08 a.m. EST. Mission
controllers at The Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory
(APL) in Laurel, Md., verified the start of the maneuver about 5 minutes
and 40 seconds later, when the first signals indicating spacecraft
thruster activity reached NASA's Deep Space Network tracking station
outside Goldstone, Calif.

This orbit-correction maneuver, the final one planned for the primary
orbital phase of the mission, was executed to keep orbital parameters
within desired ranges for optimal scientific observations. MESSENGER's
orbital velocity was changed by a total of 22.2 meters per second (49.7
miles per hour) to make the corrections essential for continuing the
planned measurement campaigns.

"The successful completion of this burn marks a significant milestone on
the MESSENGER project," says MESSENGER Systems Engineer Eric Finnegan of
APL. "The propulsion system has now completed all major maneuver
requirements for the primary mission. Given the complexity of this
propulsion system and the challenges of the trajectory, this is a major
achievement for the APL and Aerojet design and mission operation teams."



MESSENGER (MErcury Surface, Space ENvironment, GEochemistry, and
Ranging) is a NASA-sponsored scientific investigation of the planet
Mercury and the first space mission designed to orbit the planet closest
to the Sun. The MESSENGER spacecraft launched on August 3, 2004, and
after flybys of Earth, Venus, and Mercury will start a yearlong study of
its target planet in March 2011. Dr. Sean C. Solomon, of the Carnegie
Institution of Washington, leads the mission as Principal Investigator.
The Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics 

Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question

[cdtucson]

Ted, Jeff, Doug, list,
Given what we now know about Almahatta Sita and how the classification type 
depends largely on what sample piece is being tested at the time.
Couldn't this help explain why your (Ted's)  Butt has been getting the workout 
as of late? 
Maybe you were right all along and perhaps their are more mixed batches of soup 
yet to be acknowledged than we once realized?
Carl 
meteoritemax
--
Cheers

 Ted Bunch  wrote: 
> Well stated Jeff and I agree! Thank you. There is the thing about
> "metachondrite" terminology, but we shall leave this "dead horse" alone for
> the time being. 
> 
> Two of these unremitting classification issues in 3 days is much too much
> for me in one week, especially when my butt is tied to both of them.
> 
> Ted
> 
> 
> On 12/5/11 7:02 PM, "Jeff Grossman"  wrote:
> 
> > Type 7 is considered by most of those who use it to represent the
> > highest degree of thermal metamorphism that a chondrite can experience
> > without melting.  As implied in that first sentence, some petrologists
> > don't distinguish these from type 6.  The term "primitive achondrite" is
> > widely taken to be the next stage: you make them when a chondrite
> > partially melts, and the process of crystal-melt separation begins.  The
> > "primitive" part says that the bulk composition is still fairly close to
> > chondritic.  But these definitions are not used by everybody, and you
> > will get arguments about them.
> > 
> > Clearly, the "LL" part of an LL7 classification for NWA 3100 is
> > unlikely.  O isotopes are below the terrestrial fractionation line,
> > which basically rules it out.  So it is not an LL7.  Bunch has shown
> > that the O isotopes are closer to CR chondrites.
> > 
> > The hard part is the type 7 vs. primitive achondrite distinction.  Bunch
> > et al.'s 2005 and 2008 LPSC abstracts do not report anything in NWA 3100
> > that I take as evidence of melting or differentiation.  So I don't see
> > any reason to call these primitive achondrites, at least not based on
> > these findings.  I think the Bunch et al.'s conclusion that NWA 3100 is
> > a CR6 is the best we have right now, but I think you still have to think
> > of this as preliminary.  Ted can correct me, but I think it was actually
> > the nomcom that pushed for calling this a PAC, amid controversy on the
> > committee.
> > 
> > Jeff
> > 
> > 
> > On 12/5/2011 8:23 PM, Ruben Garcia wrote:
> >> Hi all,
> >> 
> >> I just bought a smallish collection and several of the slices that
> >> came with are NWA 3100. Mike Farmer's card was included and lists NWA
> >> 3100 as an LL7.  The Met-Bul calls NWA 3100 a Primitive achondrite -
> >> not an LL7.
> >> 
> >> My question is this,
> >> 
> >> Does LL7 denote a particular Primitive achondrite? If so which one? If
> >> not then what type is this?
> >> 
> >> BTW - I think Ted Bunch did the classification
> >> 
> > 
> > __
> > Visit the Archives at
> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> 
> 
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[meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question

[Bernd V. Pauli]

Hi All,

Alan kindly wrote:

"George Merrill's "The Story of Meteorites" from 1929: 

 There are andrites, eukrites, shergottites, howardites, bustites, 
 chassignites, chladnites, amphoterites, howarditic chondrites, white 
 chondrites, intermediate chondrites, gray chondrites, black chondrites, 
 spherulitic chondrites, crystalline chondrites, carbonaceous chondrites, 
 orvinites, tadjerites, ureilites, lodranies, grahamite mesosiderites, 
 siderophyrs, and more."

or Tschermak for that matter:

The meteorite types known to date are:

I. Main constituents are pyroxenes and plagioclase.
   The crust is glossy.

- Eucrites (Rose). Augite and anorthite (or maskelynite).
- Howardites (Rose). Augite, bronzite, anorthite.

II. Pyroxenes and olivine form the main constituents.
The crust is slightly glossy to dull.

- Bustites* (Tschermak). Diopside and enstatite. (*bustites = now aubrites)
- Chladnites+ (Rose). Enstatite with a little anorthite.

+Only Bishopville at Tschermak's time but Bishopville is an aubrite (!)

- Diogenites (Tschermak). Bronzite.
- Amphoterites (Tschermak). Bronzite and olivine. (now LL chondrites)
- Chassignites (Rose). Olivine. (now SNC)

III. Bronzite, olivine, iron as main constituents.

Chondrites (Rose). Texture chondritic.

IV. Iron, forming networks, enclosing silicates: plagioclase, olivine, 
pyroxenes, troilite.

- Grahamites (Tschermak). Plagioclase, bronzite, and augite, in iron.
(Vaca Muerta was a grahamite for Tschermak)
- Siderophyres (Tschermak). Bronzite in iron. (Steinbach)
- Mesosiderites (Rose). Bronzite and olivine in iron.
(Lodran (!) and Hainholz were mesosiderites for Tschermak)
- Pallasites (Rose) Olivine in iron.

V. Iron with subordinate troilite, schreibersite, etc.

- Iron meteorites

Tschermak omitted the name "shalkite" proposed by Rose because
reports on the composition of Shalka were contradictory at that time.

Reference:

TSCHERMAK G. (1885) Die mikroskopische Beschaffenheit
der Meteoriten (Stuttgart E. Schweizerbart'sche Verlagshandlung,
E. Koch, 23 pp.).

English Translation: The Microscopic Properties of Meteorites, Vol. 4,
No. 6 (Smithsonian Contributions to Astrophysics, Washington, D.C., 1964).

Cheers,

Bernd


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[meteorite-list] NWA 5402 LL6 Melt Rock [was Primitive Achondrite Question]

[Greg Hupé]

Hello All,

With today's conversation regarding the "Primitive Achondrite Question" 
thread, I thought I would draw your attention to a 'melt rock' I have had 
for 3 1/2 years but have not done anything with it, and still am not 
offering any of it at this point.


Here is a link to the Officially recognized Bulletin entry for NWA 5402, an 
'LL6 Ungrouped Achondrite', or recommended "LL Melt Rock", not sure which is 
preferred as both are in the Official entry. Also find here a quickie photo 
I just took of the unpolished face of the mass the type sample was cut from:


Meteoritical Bulletin entry:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=49128

Image of NWA 5402 cut face:
http://www.lunarrock.com/NWA5402/NWA5402mass.jpg

Best Regards,
Greg

The Dead Horse Society-EL3
"Dead Horses Can't Live Until They Are Buried Standing UP!"

Greg Hupé
The Hupé Collection
gmh...@centurylink.net
www.LunarRock.com
NaturesVault (eBay)
IMCA 3163

Click here for my current eBay auctions:
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault



-Original Message- 
From: Alan Rubin

Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 1:05 PM
To: raremeteori...@yahoo.com ; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question

I thought I would add my tuppance worth.  I don't use the type-7
classification.  If a chondrite shows no evidence of melting, I'll classify
it as type-6 no matter how recrystallized it may be -- whether there are
recognizable chondrules or not.  If the rock does show evidence of melt,
there are invariably indications that the melt has been impact-generated and
I'll call the rock an impact-melt breccia.  If the rock has been essentially
totally melted, I'll call it an impact-melt rock.  Almost all of these rocks
can be assigned to a known chondrite group on the basis of olivine Fa, O
isotopes, bulk chemistry, etc.  If a rock is a winonaite or acapulcoite, it
can be classified as such.  But if we want to understand how these
"primitive achondrite" groups formed (not required for classification
purposes), there are basically two schools of thought.  Most researchers
maintain that primitive achondrites are rocks that have been partly melted
by internal heating processes (ala Al-26) and the heating and fractionation
just did not proceed as far as in the case of true achondrites.  A minority
of researchers (including me) believe it is more likely that primitive
achondrites are impact-melted chondrites and are thus not that different
than chondrite impact-melt breccias and chondrite impact-melt rocks. As I
said earlier, the origin of these meteorites is not important for their
proper classification, but it can lead to heated debates.
Alan



Alan Rubin
Institute of Geophysics and Planetary Physics
University of California
3845 Slichter Hall
603 Charles Young Dr. E
Los Angeles, CA  90095-1567
phone: 310-825-3202
e-mail: aeru...@ucla.edu
website: http://cosmochemists.igpp.ucla.edu/Rubin.html


- Original Message - 
From: "MexicoDoug" 

To: ; 
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question



Adam wrote:

"NWA 3133 is a CV Primitive Achondrite"

Hi Adam, thanks ... The asteroid belt ought to be called the asteroid zoo!

The question I have on this one, if CV is for certain, would be whether it 
is the result of a collision with a typical CV type, or is it certain that 
it is a fully baked CV (what happened to the possible CAI's - are there 
any, or is the CV possibly just impact regolith?), or, whether some 
innocent CV got hot all by itself.



Kinest wishes
Doug

(Why does my wallet retract down my pocket every time ths stuff comes up!)




-Original Message-
From: Adam Hupe 
To: Adam 
Sent: Tue, Dec 6, 2011 11:47 am
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question


Doug wrote: I can't wait until someone turns up a CV6+. Theoretically, 
there is

no reason to
bar the possibility,, or is there...

NWA 3133 is a CV Primitive Achondrite

All of these oxygen isotope compositions
plot on the CV3 mixing line, suggesting that this achondritic meteorite 
has

affinities with CV chondrites (Irving et al., 2004).

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Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question

[Alan Rubin]

Classifications are just a way of making sense of the world by putting 
diverse objects into tidy categories.  Even though real-world objects don't 
always fit (is light a wave or a particle?), good classifications last 
longer than interpretations.  For example, the Linnaeus classification 
system was developed from a creationist perspective but is used today by 
every evolutionary biologist.  So, to answer your question, classification 
is an end in itself -- it certainly helps in understanding relationships 
among diverse objects.  But classification is not the only end --  
understanding the origins of objects is also rather important, but because 
we have incomplete knowledge of objects, our interpretations are always 
tentative, subject to revision when new data are acquired.  Classifications 
should be longer-lasting.
   As an aside, if you are interested in bad classification systems for 
meteorites, look at George Merrill's "The Story of Meteorites" from 1929: 
There are andrites, eukrites, shergottites, howardites, bustites, 
chassignites, chladnites, amphoterites, howarditic chondrites, white 
chondrites, intermediate chondrites, gray chondrites, black chondrites, 
spherulitic chondrites, crystalline chondrites, carbonaceous chondrites, 
orvinites, tadjerites, ureilites, lodranies, grahamite mesosiderites, 
siderophyrs, and more.  Some of the groups are still recogniable, others 
less so.  The problem was that the knowledge base at the time was 
insufficient to distinguish essential from secondary properties.  Similar 
problems arose among classification schemes of living creatures and 
especially fossils.


Alan


Alan Rubin
Institute of Geophysics and Planetary Physics
University of California
3845 Slichter Hall
603 Charles Young Dr. E
Los Angeles, CA  90095-1567
phone: 310-825-3202
e-mail: aeru...@ucla.edu
website: http://cosmochemists.igpp.ucla.edu/Rubin.html


- Original Message - 
From: "MexicoDoug" 

To: ; 
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question



Adam wrote:

"NWA 3133 is a CV Primitive Achondrite"

Hi Adam, thanks ... The asteroid belt ought to be called the asteroid zoo!

The question I have on this one, if CV is for certain, would be whether it 
is the result of a collision with a typical CV type, or is it certain that 
it is a fully baked CV (what happened to the possible CAI's - are there 
any, or is the CV possibly just impact regolith?), or, whether some 
innocent CV got hot all by itself.



Kinest wishes
Doug

(Why does my wallet retract down my pocket every time ths stuff comes up!)




-Original Message-
From: Adam Hupe 
To: Adam 
Sent: Tue, Dec 6, 2011 11:47 am
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question


Doug wrote: I can't wait until someone turns up a CV6+. Theoretically, 
there is

no reason to
bar the possibility,, or is there...

NWA 3133 is a CV Primitive Achondrite

All of these oxygen isotope compositions
plot on the CV3 mixing line, suggesting that this achondritic meteorite 
has

affinities with CV chondrites (Irving et al., 2004).

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Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question

[MexicoDoug]

Dr. Rubin wrote:

"the origin of these meteorites is not important for their proper 
classification, but it can lead to heated debates."


*Heated debates* - Pun intended or was it an unintended bonus?!

Thanks for your perspective on classification.  I think you are kindly 
answering this question but holding back on the philosophical question 
- Is it the classification that is the end in itself; or does the 
classification exist mainly to make sense out of the origin of these 
species?  Dynamical/Population vs. 'Geo'logical?


Kindest wishes
Doug
(in a perpetual minority myself)



-Original Message-
From: Alan Rubin 
To: raremeteorites ; meteorite-list 


Sent: Tue, Dec 6, 2011 1:05 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question


I thought I would add my tuppance worth.  I don't use the type-7
classification.  If a chondrite shows no evidence of melting, I'll 
classify
it as type-6 no matter how recrystallized it may be -- whether there 
are
recognizable chondrules or not.  If the rock does show evidence of 
melt,
there are invariably indications that the melt has been 
impact-generated and
I'll call the rock an impact-melt breccia.  If the rock has been 
essentially
totally melted, I'll call it an impact-melt rock.  Almost all of these 
rocks
can be assigned to a known chondrite group on the basis of olivine Fa, 
O
isotopes, bulk chemistry, etc.  If a rock is a winonaite or 
acapulcoite, it

can be classified as such.  But if we want to understand how these
"primitive achondrite" groups formed (not required for classification
purposes), there are basically two schools of thought.  Most 
researchers
maintain that primitive achondrites are rocks that have been partly 
melted
by internal heating processes (ala Al-26) and the heating and 
fractionation
just did not proceed as far as in the case of true achondrites.  A 
minority

of researchers (including me) believe it is more likely that primitive
achondrites are impact-melted chondrites and are thus not that 
different
than chondrite impact-melt breccias and chondrite impact-melt rocks. As 
I

said earlier, the origin of these meteorites is not important for their
proper classification, but it can lead to heated debates.
Alan



Alan Rubin
Institute of Geophysics and Planetary Physics
University of California
3845 Slichter Hall
603 Charles Young Dr. E
Los Angeles, CA  90095-1567
phone: 310-825-3202
e-mail: aeru...@ucla.edu
website: http://cosmochemists.igpp.ucla.edu/Rubin.html


- Original Message -
From: "MexicoDoug" 
To: ; 
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question



Adam wrote:

"NWA 3133 is a CV Primitive Achondrite"

Hi Adam, thanks ... The asteroid belt ought to be called the asteroid 

zoo!


The question I have on this one, if CV is for certain, would be 

whether it
is the result of a collision with a typical CV type, or is it certain 

that
it is a fully baked CV (what happened to the possible CAI's - are 

there

any, or is the CV possibly just impact regolith?), or, whether some
innocent CV got hot all by itself.


Kinest wishes
Doug

(Why does my wallet retract down my pocket every time ths stuff comes 

up!)





-Original Message-
From: Adam Hupe 
To: Adam 
Sent: Tue, Dec 6, 2011 11:47 am
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question


Doug wrote: I can't wait until someone turns up a CV6+. 

Theoretically,

there is
no reason to
bar the possibility,, or is there...

NWA 3133 is a CV Primitive Achondrite

All of these oxygen isotope compositions
plot on the CV3 mixing line, suggesting that this achondritic 

meteorite

has
affinities with CV chondrites (Irving et al., 2004).

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Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question

[Alan Rubin]

I thought I would add my tuppance worth.  I don't use the type-7 
classification.  If a chondrite shows no evidence of melting, I'll classify 
it as type-6 no matter how recrystallized it may be -- whether there are 
recognizable chondrules or not.  If the rock does show evidence of melt, 
there are invariably indications that the melt has been impact-generated and 
I'll call the rock an impact-melt breccia.  If the rock has been essentially 
totally melted, I'll call it an impact-melt rock.  Almost all of these rocks 
can be assigned to a known chondrite group on the basis of olivine Fa, O 
isotopes, bulk chemistry, etc.  If a rock is a winonaite or acapulcoite, it 
can be classified as such.  But if we want to understand how these 
"primitive achondrite" groups formed (not required for classification 
purposes), there are basically two schools of thought.  Most researchers 
maintain that primitive achondrites are rocks that have been partly melted 
by internal heating processes (ala Al-26) and the heating and fractionation 
just did not proceed as far as in the case of true achondrites.  A minority 
of researchers (including me) believe it is more likely that primitive 
achondrites are impact-melted chondrites and are thus not that different 
than chondrite impact-melt breccias and chondrite impact-melt rocks. As I 
said earlier, the origin of these meteorites is not important for their 
proper classification, but it can lead to heated debates.

Alan



Alan Rubin
Institute of Geophysics and Planetary Physics
University of California
3845 Slichter Hall
603 Charles Young Dr. E
Los Angeles, CA  90095-1567
phone: 310-825-3202
e-mail: aeru...@ucla.edu
website: http://cosmochemists.igpp.ucla.edu/Rubin.html


- Original Message - 
From: "MexicoDoug" 

To: ; 
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question



Adam wrote:

"NWA 3133 is a CV Primitive Achondrite"

Hi Adam, thanks ... The asteroid belt ought to be called the asteroid zoo!

The question I have on this one, if CV is for certain, would be whether it 
is the result of a collision with a typical CV type, or is it certain that 
it is a fully baked CV (what happened to the possible CAI's - are there 
any, or is the CV possibly just impact regolith?), or, whether some 
innocent CV got hot all by itself.



Kinest wishes
Doug

(Why does my wallet retract down my pocket every time ths stuff comes up!)




-Original Message-
From: Adam Hupe 
To: Adam 
Sent: Tue, Dec 6, 2011 11:47 am
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question


Doug wrote: I can't wait until someone turns up a CV6+. Theoretically, 
there is

no reason to
bar the possibility,, or is there...

NWA 3133 is a CV Primitive Achondrite

All of these oxygen isotope compositions
plot on the CV3 mixing line, suggesting that this achondritic meteorite 
has

affinities with CV chondrites (Irving et al., 2004).

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Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question

[MexicoDoug]

Adam wrote:

"NWA 3133 is a CV Primitive Achondrite"

Hi Adam, thanks ... The asteroid belt ought to be called the asteroid 
zoo!


The question I have on this one, if CV is for certain, would be whether 
it is the result of a collision with a typical CV type, or is it 
certain that it is a fully baked CV (what happened to the possible 
CAI's - are there any, or is the CV possibly just impact regolith?), 
or, whether some innocent CV got hot all by itself.



Kinest wishes
Doug

(Why does my wallet retract down my pocket every time ths stuff comes 
up!)





-Original Message-
From: Adam Hupe 
To: Adam 
Sent: Tue, Dec 6, 2011 11:47 am
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question


Doug wrote: I can't wait until someone turns up a CV6+.  Theoretically, 
there is

no reason to
bar the possibility,, or is there...

NWA 3133 is a CV Primitive Achondrite

All of these oxygen isotope compositions
plot on the CV3 mixing line, suggesting that this achondritic meteorite 
has

affinities with CV chondrites (Irving et al., 2004).

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Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question

[Adam Hupe]

Doug wrote: I can't wait until someone turns up a CV6+.  Theoretically, there 
is no reason to 
bar the possibility,, or is there...

NWA 3133 is a CV Primitive Achondrite

All of these oxygen isotope compositions
plot on the CV3 mixing line, suggesting that this achondritic meteorite has
affinities with CV chondrites (Irving et al., 2004).

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[meteorite-list] AD - Great Auctions Ending - Check Them Out!

[Adam Hupe]

Dear List Members,

Just a quick reminder that I have 54 great auctions ending later today, all 
started at just 99 cents with no reserve. I also  have some excellent items 
still left in my eBay store.


Link to all auctions:
http://shop.ebay.com/raremeteorites!/m.html


Thank you for looking and if you are bidding, good luck,


Kindest Regards,



Adam Hupe
The Hupe Collection
IMCA 2185
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Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question

[MexicoDoug]

Dr. Grossman wrote:

"Some PACs do in fact contain relict chondrules, especially 
acapulcoites and winonaites."


Thanks.  Now I appreciate how the relict condrules being "cosmic" or 
"terrestrial" in nature can throw a wrench into the classification 
scheme, especially for highly weathered meteorites where conceivably 
the classifier is presented with what s/he must decide could be the 
remnant of both in series and use whatever vestiges they can.  
Classification scientists have enriched the world so much that they've 
far outgrown their breeches ;-)


If 'primitive achondrite' or 'metachondrite' is just an attempt to add 
a gray area between black and white (chondrite vs. achondrite) the idea 
sounds great, and looks a lot a geological micro-version of the "great 
planet debate".  So, an achondrite hasn't necessarily "cleared it 
chondrules" ;-) ... !  Very philosophical to a layperson or even an 
enthusiast.  No wonder you enjoy CO's and CV's so much.  I can't wait 
until someone turns up a CV6+.  Theoretically, there is no reason to 
bar the possibility,, or is there...


Kindest wishes
SDoug



-Original Message-
From: Jeff Grossman 
To: meteorite-list 
Sent: Tue, Dec 6, 2011 7:38 am
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question


 Some PACs do in fact contain relict chondrules, especially
acapulcoites and winonaites.

Some chondrites have no chondrules (CIs and highly altered ones, plus
some type 6 and 7) and some PACs do.  Life is not always simple!

Jeff

On 12/5/2011 9:22 PM, MexicoDoug wrote:

There are relict chondrules identifyable in LL7's according to the
definition I read, though if you dig through David Weir's or Dr.
Bunch's websites you will probably get updated information.

So, it can't be an achondrite, primitive or not.  If anything it 

would

have to be a "highly evolved" chondrite; --- same logic we just saw
with Al Haggounia 001 not being an aubrite = chondrule .. not an 

aubrite


but in that Al Haggounia case, chondrules that were not completely
mineralized with replacements are present, and Greg Hupe has an
unambiguous chondrule that he kindly shared with me that is extremely
well defined (dropping it to a "3" in that case assuming not 100%
relict).

What happens when a chondrite is just past the metamorphic stage that
chondrules are no longer identifyable is probably a variable process
causing confusion among classifications of sparcely occuring
chondrules in 6's and those of 7's.  Must be a bit to come up with
uniform criteria since nature has her own sometimes cryptic ways.  It
would only get interesting if different parts of the same rock get
baked in a non-uniform oven.

Kindest wishes
Doug


-Original Message-
From: Ruben Garcia 
To: Meteorite List 
Sent: Mon, Dec 5, 2011 8:23 pm
Subject: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question


Hi all,

I just bought a smallish collection and several of the slices that
came with are NWA 3100. Mike Farmer's card was included and lists NWA
3100 as an LL7.  The Met-Bul calls NWA 3100 a Primitive achondrite -
not an LL7.

My question is this,

Does LL7 denote a particular Primitive achondrite? If so which one? If
not then what type is this?

BTW - I think Ted Bunch did the classification

--
Rock On!

Ruben Garcia

Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net
Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/
Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u
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Re: [meteorite-list] Japan Bright Fireball 4DEC2011 with videos

[Count Deiro]

Hello Dirk and List,

Super captures of that big bolide. Thank you, Dirk, for your efforts to bring 
these reports to all who have an interest.

Holiday Greetings,

Count Deiro
IMCA 3536 MetSoc




-Original Message-
>From: drtanuki 
>Sent: Dec 6, 2011 3:01 AM
>To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>Subject: [meteorite-list] Japan Bright Fireball 4DEC2011 with videos
>
>Dear List,  
>
>Just posted: 
>http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2011/12/japan-large-bright-fireball-meteor.html
>  Have a great week!  Dirk Ross...Tokyo
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>http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>Meteorite-list mailing list
>Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list

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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day

[The Murrays]

I quite agree.  I look at that picture though and can't help but  
wonder what fine surface features one might find if you could look  
close on just the metal.

Mike

On Dec 6, 2011, at 12:01 AM, Linton Rohr wrote:

"I wonder what one of those irons would look like cleaned of the  
desert varnish."


Naked, violated, and devoid of character.
But that's just my opinion. ;^)
To each his own...
Linton

Nice piece, indeed!

- Original Message - From: "The Murrays" >

To: 
Cc: 
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day



Nice piece.

I wonder what one of those irons would look like cleaned of the  
desert varnish.

Mike in CO

On Dec 5, 2011, at 4:00 AM,
wrote:



Henbury

http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpod.asp
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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4658 - Release Date:  
12/05/11




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Re: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question

[Jeff Grossman]

 Some PACs do in fact contain relict chondrules, especially 
acapulcoites and winonaites.


Some chondrites have no chondrules (CIs and highly altered ones, plus 
some type 6 and 7) and some PACs do.  Life is not always simple!


Jeff

On 12/5/2011 9:22 PM, MexicoDoug wrote:
There are relict chondrules identifyable in LL7's according to the 
definition I read, though if you dig through David Weir's or Dr. 
Bunch's websites you will probably get updated information.


So, it can't be an achondrite, primitive or not.  If anything it would 
have to be a "highly evolved" chondrite; --- same logic we just saw 
with Al Haggounia 001 not being an aubrite = chondrule .. not an aubrite


but in that Al Haggounia case, chondrules that were not completely 
mineralized with replacements are present, and Greg Hupe has an 
unambiguous chondrule that he kindly shared with me that is extremely 
well defined (dropping it to a "3" in that case assuming not 100% 
relict).


What happens when a chondrite is just past the metamorphic stage that 
chondrules are no longer identifyable is probably a variable process 
causing confusion among classifications of sparcely occuring 
chondrules in 6's and those of 7's.  Must be a bit to come up with 
uniform criteria since nature has her own sometimes cryptic ways.  It 
would only get interesting if different parts of the same rock get 
baked in a non-uniform oven.


Kindest wishes
Doug


-Original Message-
From: Ruben Garcia 
To: Meteorite List 
Sent: Mon, Dec 5, 2011 8:23 pm
Subject: [meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question


Hi all,

I just bought a smallish collection and several of the slices that
came with are NWA 3100. Mike Farmer's card was included and lists NWA
3100 as an LL7.  The Met-Bul calls NWA 3100 a Primitive achondrite -
not an LL7.

My question is this,

Does LL7 denote a particular Primitive achondrite? If so which one? If
not then what type is this?

BTW - I think Ted Bunch did the classification

--
Rock On!

Ruben Garcia

Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net
Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/
Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u
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[meteorite-list] Forsyth, GA meteorite

[Anita Westlake]

Anyone have an idea how much the Forsyth, GA meteorite is worth per gram? 
Thanks for your help,
Anita

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[meteorite-list] AD:Some auctions on ebay including Carancas and Fisher

[Martin Goff]

Hi all,

I have some items on ebay at the moment, the links are below, please
take a look if interested.


Full set 12 Nestle cards titled 'meteors & meteorites'

(http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/250938845216?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649)


2 x pieces (1 x broken specimen) of Carancas meteorite wighing 1.6 grams

(http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/250940711331?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649)


0.83 gram part slice of historic Fisher meteorite. Fell 1894 Minnesota

(http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/250944597141?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649)


2 fossilised shock deformed belemnites from ries crater in Germany

(http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/250944620413?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649)


Cheers


Martin

-- 
Martin Goff
www.msg-meteorites.co.uk
IMCA #3387
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[meteorite-list] Japan Bright Fireball 4DEC2011 with videos

[drtanuki]

Dear List,  

Just posted: 
http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2011/12/japan-large-bright-fireball-meteor.html
  Have a great week!  Dirk Ross...Tokyo
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[meteorite-list] Thank You Sand People

[Anita Westlake]

Dear Meteorite Folks:
 
Thank you for your kind responses to my sand request. I've received sand from 
all over the world!
Greg Hupe: Just got your package yesterday. It was so nice of you to include 3 
samples! What a sweetheart. 


Thanks also to Twink and Dorothy. Your surprises are coming!

Anita

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[meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day

[valparint]

Chinga

http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpod.asp
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[meteorite-list] Primitive Achondrite Question

[Bernd V. Pauli]

Hi Ruben and List,

As Jeff Grossman already stated the "primitive achondrite"
vs. LL7 isssue is highly controversial but here are some
criteria and examples culled from the literature:

1) Dodd (1981) lists three criteria that can be used to
   distinguish between types 6 and 7 ordinary chondrites:

(a) chondrules are poorly defined in type 6 and relics only in type 7;
(b) low-Ca pyroxenes in type 6 contain <1.0 wt% CaO, while in type 7
they contain >1.0 wt%;
(c) feldspar coarsens going from type 6 to 7, with those in type 7
being >100 µm in size.*

2) WALLACE M. et al. (1991) Classification of ... Crockers Well
   (Meteoritics 26-3, 1991, 250):

- in thin section no visible chondrules
- clasts: recrystallized assemblages of olivine, pyroxene and plagioclase
- olivine: narrow range in composition from Fa29.6 to Fa30.1
- orthopyroxene (Fs23.7 to Fs24.2) is very calcium rich

3) Dar al Gani 1022 (LL7), Met.Bull. 87, 2003 July, p. A194:

- rare chondrule relics are present
- plagioclase grain size up to 200 µm (see above 1c)*
- mineral phases have homogeneous chemical composition

4) Dhofar 011 (LL7), Met.Bull. 84, 2000 Aug:

- chondrules almost completely absent
- matrix thoroughly recrystallized and relatively coarse grained

5) Sahara 97037 (LL7), classified by M. Bourot-Denise

- very well recrystallized, with no evidence of chondrules
- a large fraction of pyroxenes are Ca-rich
- feldspar* and phosphates make mm-sized associations

6) EET 92012, EET 92013, EET 92016 (LL7)

Thin section description: B. Mason

- a few coarser aggregates appear to be vestigial chondrules
- olivine and pyroxene of uniform composition

Best wishes from rainy,
windy Southern Germany.

Bernd


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