Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic)
Citation needed! I think your numbers are off by a large factor again. The last large extinction event I heard about (except the human influence today) was 65 million years ago and a lot of multicellular species survived. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction_event /Göran Steve Dunklee wrote: I forgot to mention the extinction events happeninmg every 100k years or so. which would require species evolved from one celluar organisms to man in less than a million years. with observed reproduction rates of all species on earth this is just not possible! and to make this meteorite related we must have been dropped here from a meteorite lol :) cheers Steve __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic)
This answer only deals with evolution and no meteorites. Just delete it and you will not have missed any meteoritic information. Steve Dunklee, I'm not jumping in the discussion about the existence of aliens but you are making a few mistakes. - A change every 10 minutes for one billion years doesn't add up to 53 billion changes, that would be only 53 per year. The real number is 53000 billions. That is only for one cell. You have to add in the diversification that a planet teeming with life adds to the numbers. How many microbes inhabit this planet? Every cell division gives two new cells and after 1 billion years there should be 2^53 cells, more than enough that some should give rise to humans with a merely 30 base pairs in the DNA strain. When life got more complex it invented sex to speed up development by mixing and fusing different DNA strains. (That humans have turned sex into an amusement park is just an abomination of it's true purpose!) :-) Ok, that is a looong stretch that a cell should give rise to complex multi cellular life. I just threw out some big numbers like you did. Your argument only dealt with one strain of microbe while my numbers puts no upper limit to the numbers of microbes (biomass). The truth lies somewhere in between but I leave that for the biologists to work on. - The other mistake you are doing is to say that there is 4^30 combinations of the human genome. If you change too much of the genome it isn't a human any longer. Just change 5% percent and you could end up with a chimpanzee. A bit further and you have a mice. Even yeast shares a lot of genes with humans. More than half of the human DNA seems to be made up of junk. Repeated expressions, inactive parts left overs from evolution and remains of viruses. Whenever a complex being is reproducing it will change a lot of different base pair, not only one. As a proof, look at the divergence between chimpanzee and humans. 5 million years created a 5% difference between our species. If we take a simplistic view and translate that into base pairs even though it isn't that easy to compare. (It is moved parts, added sequences, removed sequences and changed parts.) we have an approximately difference of 5% of 3 billion, or 150 million base pairs over 5 million years, or 30 base pairs per year (15 per specie). Not that big a number at all. So I don't find any problems with the reproduction rates compared to the complexity of our DNA. Btw I believe there is life in other places of the universe but that is only a belief. I have no proof of existence or absence. The only thing I know is that we soon have the tools to detect traces of life if it exists in our stellar vicinity and that the scientific debate following a possible find will make the meteorite list seem dull. :-) /Göran Steve Dunklee wrote: the fastest reproducing micro organism has a reproduction rate of once every ten minutes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbe this reproduction rate if there was one change in dna every ten minutes would result in just shy of 53 billion different combinations in a billion years. different combinations of dna. the oldest life on earth is 3.5 billion years ago but the change to multi cellular organisms was only about 1 billion years ago with stromatolites. the human genome has 4 to the 3 billionth power of genetic combinations in its dna and a reproduction rate of once every 9 months. as species become more complex the reproduction rate decreases. http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1998-12/912824618.Ge.r.html 4 to the 3 billionth power is way over the possible 52 billion combinitations assuming one change every ten minutes which we all know is impossible. the only possible explaination of the complexity of the human genome and other forms of life on earth is that life could not possibly have formed on earth. there has not been enough time! even at one surviable change every ten minutes. at one change every ten minutes it would still take over 2 billion years. http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1998-12/912824618.Ge.r.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbe http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200606/s1658283.htm I know I don't have all the answeres but it's hard to ignore real science of reproduction rates as compared to our dna. and the amount of time it takes for reproduction to occure. In short we are the aliens! eve a great day! Steve __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic)
That humans have turned sex into an amusement park is just an abomination... On behalf of amusement park operators every- where, I strenuously object to this comment... Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: "Göran Axelsson" To: Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic) This answer only deals with evolution and no meteorites. Just delete it and you will not have missed any meteoritic information. Steve Dunklee, I'm not jumping in the discussion about the existence of aliens but you are making a few mistakes. - A change every 10 minutes for one billion years doesn't add up to 53 billion changes, that would be only 53 per year. The real number is 53000 billions. That is only for one cell. You have to add in the diversification that a planet teeming with life adds to the numbers. How many microbes inhabit this planet? Every cell division gives two new cells and after 1 billion years there should be 2^53 cells, more than enough that some should give rise to humans with a merely 30 base pairs in the DNA strain. When life got more complex it invented sex to speed up development by mixing and fusing different DNA strains. (That humans have turned sex into an amusement park is just an abomination of it's true purpose!) :-) Ok, that is a looong stretch that a cell should give rise to complex multi cellular life. I just threw out some big numbers like you did. Your argument only dealt with one strain of microbe while my numbers puts no upper limit to the numbers of microbes (biomass). The truth lies somewhere in between but I leave that for the biologists to work on. - The other mistake you are doing is to say that there is 4^30 combinations of the human genome. If you change too much of the genome it isn't a human any longer. Just change 5% percent and you could end up with a chimpanzee. A bit further and you have a mice. Even yeast shares a lot of genes with humans. More than half of the human DNA seems to be made up of junk. Repeated expressions, inactive parts left overs from evolution and remains of viruses. Whenever a complex being is reproducing it will change a lot of different base pair, not only one. As a proof, look at the divergence between chimpanzee and humans. 5 million years created a 5% difference between our species. If we take a simplistic view and translate that into base pairs even though it isn't that easy to compare. (It is moved parts, added sequences, removed sequences and changed parts.) we have an approximately difference of 5% of 3 billion, or 150 million base pairs over 5 million years, or 30 base pairs per year (15 per specie). Not that big a number at all. So I don't find any problems with the reproduction rates compared to the complexity of our DNA. Btw I believe there is life in other places of the universe but that is only a belief. I have no proof of existence or absence. The only thing I know is that we soon have the tools to detect traces of life if it exists in our stellar vicinity and that the scientific debate following a possible find will make the meteorite list seem dull. :-) /Göran Steve Dunklee wrote: the fastest reproducing micro organism has a reproduction rate of once every ten minutes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbe this reproduction rate if there was one change in dna every ten minutes would result in just shy of 53 billion different combinations in a billion years. different combinations of dna. the oldest life on earth is 3.5 billion years ago but the change to multi cellular organisms was only about 1 billion years ago with stromatolites. the human genome has 4 to the 3 billionth power of genetic combinations in its dna and a reproduction rate of once every 9 months. as species become more complex the reproduction rate decreases. http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1998-12/912824618.Ge.r.html 4 to the 3 billionth power is way over the possible 52 billion combinitations assuming one change every ten minutes which we all know is impossible. the only possible explaination of the complexity of the human genome and other forms of life on earth is that life could not possibly have formed on earth. there has not been enough time! even at one surviable change every ten minutes. at one change every ten minutes it would still take over 2 billion years. http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1998-12/912824618.Ge.r.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbe http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200606/s1658283.htm I know I don't have all the answeres but it's hard to ignore real science of reproduction rates as compared to our dna. and the amount of time it takes for reproduction to occure. In short we are the aliens! eve a great day! Steve _
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic)
How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? LOL! Isn't science fun? Steve --- On Mon, 8/31/09, Sterling K. Webb wrote: > From: Sterling K. Webb > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off > topic) > To: "Göran Axelsson" , > meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Date: Monday, August 31, 2009, 1:10 PM > > That humans have turned sex into > an amusement park is just an abomination... > > On behalf of amusement park operators every- > where, I strenuously object to this comment... > > > Sterling K. Webb > --- > - Original Message - From: "Göran Axelsson" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 11:11 AM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we > are the aliens! (off topic) > > > This answer only deals with evolution and no meteorites. > Just delete it > and you will not have missed any meteoritic information. > > Steve Dunklee, I'm not jumping in the discussion about the > existence of > aliens but you are making a few mistakes. > > - A change every 10 minutes for one billion years doesn't > add up to 53 > billion changes, that would be only 53 per year. The real > number is > 53000 billions. > That is only for one cell. You have to add in the > diversification that a > planet teeming with life adds to the numbers. How many > microbes inhabit > this planet? > Every cell division gives two new cells and after 1 billion > years there > should be 2^53 cells, more than enough that > some should give > rise to humans with a merely 30 base pairs in the > DNA strain. > When life got more complex it invented sex to speed up > development by > mixing and fusing different DNA strains. (That humans have > turned sex > into an amusement park is just an abomination of it's true > purpose!) > > :-) > > Ok, that is a looong stretch that a cell should give rise > to complex > multi cellular life. I just threw out some big numbers like > you did. > Your argument only dealt with one strain of microbe while > my numbers > puts no upper limit to the numbers of microbes (biomass). > The truth lies > somewhere in between but I leave that for the biologists to > work on. > > - The other mistake you are doing is to say that there is > 4^30 > combinations of the human genome. If you change too much of > the genome > it isn't a human any longer. Just change 5% percent and you > could end up > with a chimpanzee. A bit further and you have a mice. Even > yeast shares > a lot of genes with humans. > More than half of the human DNA seems to be made up of > junk. Repeated > expressions, inactive parts left overs from evolution and > remains of > viruses. > > Whenever a complex being is reproducing it will change a > lot of > different base pair, not only one. As a proof, look at the > divergence > between chimpanzee and humans. 5 million years created a 5% > difference > between our species. If we take a simplistic view and > translate that > into base pairs even though it isn't that easy to compare. > (It is moved > parts, added sequences, removed sequences and changed > parts.) we have an > approximately difference of 5% of 3 billion, or 150 million > base pairs > over 5 million years, or 30 base pairs per year (15 per > specie). Not > that big a number at all. > > So I don't find any problems with the reproduction rates > compared to the > complexity of our DNA. > > Btw I believe there is life in other places of the universe > but that is > only a belief. I have no proof of existence or absence. The > only thing I > know is that we soon have the tools to detect traces of > life if it > exists in our stellar vicinity and that the scientific > debate > following a possible find will make the meteorite list seem > dull. > > :-) > > /Göran > > > Steve Dunklee wrote: > > the fastest reproducing micro organism has a > reproduction rate of once every ten minutes. > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbe > > > > this reproduction rate if there was one change in dna > every ten minutes would result in just shy of 53 > billion different combinations in a billion > years. different combinations of dna. > > the oldest life on earth is 3.5 billion years > ago but the change to multi cellular organisms was only > about 1 billion years ago with stromatolites. > > the human genome has 4 to the 3 billionth > power of genetic combinations in its dna and a reproduction
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic)
gee when was the last time any human had 53 reproductions in one year? even the swine flue and other organisms have only recorded viable changes in genome " and im realy just guessing here" since it only covers germs that cause sicknesses. of about once every three months. there is something else going on for a recoverey from an exstinction event from the KT boundry to occure in only 65 million years. The material above and below the KT boundry is layered with tectonic events that are about an inch to 3 inches thick. the boundry material has layers between 1 and 4 thousandths of an inch. If we use the amount of layers rather than the thickness of the material to measure the elapsed time. then the recovery time from the extinction event to the time when the reefs recovered again was was a lot longer than the growth rate of limestone from a reef. the .25 to .5 inch KT boundry material with thousands of layers may represent hundreds millions of years, before life returned again on earth. if what happens today is any indication of the past, then life recovered on land, a long time before the ancient ocean reefs started to deposit limestone agaain. giving plenty of time for the vast diversity of genetic material in land animals . have a great day Steve > From: Steve Dunklee > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off > topic) > To: "Göran Axelsson" , > meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com, "Sterling K. Webb" > > Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 6:08 AM > How many licks does it take to get to > the center of a tootsie pop? > LOL! > Isn't science fun? > > Steve > > > --- On Mon, 8/31/09, Sterling K. Webb > wrote: > > > From: Sterling K. Webb > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact > Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic) > > To: "Göran Axelsson" , > meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > > Date: Monday, August 31, 2009, 1:10 PM > > > That humans have turned sex into > > an amusement park is just an abomination... > > > > On behalf of amusement park operators every- > > where, I strenuously object to this comment... > > > > > > Sterling K. Webb > > > --------------------------- > > - Original Message - From: "Göran Axelsson" > > > To: > > Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 11:11 AM > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact > Predicted/we > > are the aliens! (off topic) > > > > > > This answer only deals with evolution and no > meteorites. > > Just delete it > > and you will not have missed any meteoritic > information. > > > > Steve Dunklee, I'm not jumping in the discussion about > the > > existence of > > aliens but you are making a few mistakes. > > > > - A change every 10 minutes for one billion years > doesn't > > add up to 53 > > billion changes, that would be only 53 per year. The > real > > number is > > 53000 billions. > > That is only for one cell. You have to add in the > > diversification that a > > planet teeming with life adds to the numbers. How > many > > microbes inhabit > > this planet? > > Every cell division gives two new cells and after 1 > billion > > years there > > should be 2^53 cells, more than enough > that > > some should give > > rise to humans with a merely 30 base pairs in > the > > DNA strain. > > When life got more complex it invented sex to speed > up > > development by > > mixing and fusing different DNA strains. (That humans > have > > turned sex > > into an amusement park is just an abomination of it's > true > > purpose!) > > > > :-) > > > > Ok, that is a looong stretch that a cell should give > rise > > to complex > > multi cellular life. I just threw out some big numbers > like > > you did. > > Your argument only dealt with one strain of microbe > while > > my numbers > > puts no upper limit to the numbers of microbes > (biomass). > > The truth lies > > somewhere in between but I leave that for the > biologists to > > work on. > > > > - The other mistake you are doing is to say that there > is > > 4^30 > > combinations of the human genome. If you change too > much of > > the genome > > it isn't a human any longer. Just change 5% percent > and you > > could end up > > with a chimpanzee. A bit further and you have a mice. > Even > > yeast shares > > a lot of genes wit
Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic)
Not "any human"... it's the "human race" and as a specie I think we had more than 53 reproductions last year. You know, there are more than 6.7 billions of us now. Every reproduction is mixing genes from two different individuals. That is how you speed up evolution by inventing sex. "the .25 to .5 inch KT boundry material with thousands of layers may represent hundreds millions of years" No! Not all species were extinct, just a lot of them. And the fact that we are here now just 65 million years later plainly disproves that it would represent "hundreds millions of years". We don't need to count layers or sediment thickness. Just read the radioactive decay clocks and you will have the age. You are throwing out numbers that is plain wrong again. /Göran Steve Dunklee wrote: gee when was the last time any human had 53 reproductions in one year? even the swine flue and other organisms have only recorded viable changes in genome " and im realy just guessing here" since it only covers germs that cause sicknesses. of about once every three months. there is something else going on for a recoverey from an exstinction event from the KT boundry to occure in only 65 million years. The material above and below the KT boundry is layered with tectonic events that are about an inch to 3 inches thick. the boundry material has layers between 1 and 4 thousandths of an inch. If we use the amount of layers rather than the thickness of the material to measure the elapsed time. then the recovery time from the extinction event to the time when the reefs recovered again was was a lot longer than the growth rate of limestone from a reef. the .25 to .5 inch KT boundry material with thousands of layers may represent hundreds millions of years, before life returned again on earth. if what happens today is any indication of the past, then life recovered on land, a long time before the ancient ocean reefs started to deposit limestone agaain. giving plenty of time for the vast diversity of genetic material in land animals . have a great day Steve From: Steve Dunklee Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic) To: "Göran Axelsson" , meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com, "Sterling K. Webb" Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 6:08 AM How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? LOL! Isn't science fun? Steve --- On Mon, 8/31/09, Sterling K. Webb wrote: From: Sterling K. Webb Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic) To: "Göran Axelsson" , meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Monday, August 31, 2009, 1:10 PM That humans have turned sex into an amusement park is just an abomination... On behalf of amusement park operators every- where, I strenuously object to this comment... Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: "Göran Axelsson" To: Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alien Contact Predicted/we are the aliens! (off topic) This answer only deals with evolution and no meteorites. Just delete it and you will not have missed any meteoritic information. Steve Dunklee, I'm not jumping in the discussion about the existence of aliens but you are making a few mistakes. - A change every 10 minutes for one billion years doesn't add up to 53 billion changes, that would be only 53 per year. The real number is 53000 billions. That is only for one cell. You have to add in the diversification that a planet teeming with life adds to the numbers. How many microbes inhabit this planet? Every cell division gives two new cells and after 1 billion years there should be 2^53 cells, more than enough that some should give rise to humans with a merely 30 base pairs in the DNA strain. When life got more complex it invented sex to speed up development by mixing and fusing different DNA strains. (That humans have turned sex into an amusement park is just an abomination of it's true purpose!) :-) Ok, that is a looong stretch that a cell should give rise to complex multi cellular life. I just threw out some big numbers like you did. Your argument only dealt with one strain of microbe while my numbers puts no upper limit to the numbers of microbes (biomass). The truth lies somewhere in between but I leave that for the biologists to work on. - The other mistake you are doing is to say that there is 4^3
