Re: [meteorite-list] Beware of meteorite hunters
Bill, I legal terms, a meteorite is a rock in the most general sense. Now, mind your own business and don't bother me with your foul attitude. Why don't you go away, you do not contribute anything? Go away, scoot, move along! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Adam Hupe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 11:42 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Beware of meteorite hunters You still haven't answered the man's question. Surely he knows more about procedure in Oman than you. Why should the Omani's cooperate with you? You are unnecessary. I don't see you sharing resources and strewnfield data with the general public here and in Oman you don't even qualify as a member. Bill -- Original message -- From: Adam Hupe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Look at this interesting article that our friend Ali al Kathiri is involved with: Beware of meteorite hunters: http://www.newsbriefsoman.info/index.php?itemid=35 This is the kind of rhetoric that causes countries to leave meteorites off-limits to hunting instead of promoting a spirit of cooperation! Regards, Adam __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Beware of meteorite hunters
I legal terms, a meteorite is a rock in the most general sense. Adam, Export documents typically require SPECIFIC itimization, not generalizations. Try to export a bunch of plutonium described as 'lump of metal' and see how far it gets you. diamonds, fossils, and some antiquities could too be described as 'rocks' but I'm sure you would agree that it isnt an intellectually honest description for such items. Even if you think generalization isnt an issue, IF the translation this guy provided is true then listing the 'rocks' as having no value is pretty hard to defend when just 0.13% of that 150kg has a 'special 20% off sale price' of $178358.00 Now you might be thinking that this is an attempt by me to goad you into a fight given our online history on the list. Quite the contrary. I'd like to see you adresse this AlKathiri's point directly instead of just questioning his intentions. does it matter if one has export documentation for 'rocks' of this era taken out of oman? were there any laws on the books at the time these meteorites were taken out of oman that would prohibit such exportation? As far as I know the answer to both these questions is a most resounding NO. from what i have been able to dig up foriegn commerical activity in oman requires a permit, but lack of one doesnt mean meteorites without an export permit were removed illegaly. I personally feel that guys who are trying to 'protect' meteroites from commerical intrests are doing the greatest disservice to both collectors AND science that can possibly be done. Look at all of the meteorites that science has gotten to examine as a direct result of the commerical side of meteorites. Not only do meteorite hunters/dealers go out and find this material type specimins are provided at no cost to the researchers and in some cases labs actually charge a small fee to look at the material meaning they get cash revenue AND free samples to study. what possibly could be a better deal than that? As Martin Altman is fond to point out - look at the huge expense of the antartic meteorite recovery effort, and compare that to all of the free material that science has had from commerical sources. seems like a no brainer to me. given the fact that it seems inarguable that the current status quo works, I say it's the duty of everyone involved in this hobby to correct any public misconceptions before politicians start pushing for campos to be repatirated. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Beware of meteorite hunters
Dear List, I do not understand why Ali al Kathiri is commenting on something he is not directly involved with. This permit was issued before Royal Decree No. 27/2003, which apparently prohibits the mining of rocks without a permit. He seems to think it is ok to include meteorites under rocks when quoting this decree but when it comes to a permit not issued to somebody he is not involved with, it must specifically state meteorite. I agree that a meteorite is a rock and using the same semantics, most would agree that meteorites are covered under the removal of rocks. In legal terms it is best to use general terms that are far more reaching than being too specific. It is also a great idea to leave documents short and to the point. The more complicated an agreement is, the more loopholes that later can be exploited. There can be many interpretations so the term rock was used to cover mineral combinations of any sort including meteorites. This is not misleading, rather a good move in order to cover everything at a time when it was not necessary. It also shows honesty on the searchers' part by entering the country stating their actual activities. Meteorites have very little or no commercial value until studied so these rocks were unconditionally released under the permit in question. Once they left Oman, no claim exists. We never asserted that we obtained this permit first-hand but were very careful about its existence since there now may be laws on the books. These laws do not date to the time of these recoveries but steps were taken at that time to insure full disclosure. The country was entered on good faith or these documents would not exist at a time when they were not required if somebody where trying to be misleading. If new laws that specifically cover meteorites exist, it would do the world some good if they were translated by a non-biased party and made public. This is where I feel, Ali, that you are derelict in your duties as an agent of Oman. Instead you comment on rocks that were legally removed from Oman with permission. These documents are real not a fabrication, as you seem to imply. Here is a direct quote from an official article on the subject: The mining law issued by Royal Decree No. 27/2003 prohibited the practice of all rock and mineral mining and exploratory activities and trading in the same without obtaining permissions from the Directorate-General of Minerals. I wouldn't call picking up a meteorite mining but trying to pigeonhole this law for meteorites, they must be called rocks and this is what the permit covers. Please clarify any new laws for the rest of us. Adam - Original Message - From: stan . [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 1:59 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Beware of meteorite hunters I legal terms, a meteorite is a rock in the most general sense. Adam, Export documents typically require SPECIFIC itimization, not generalizations. Try to export a bunch of plutonium described as 'lump of metal' and see how far it gets you. diamonds, fossils, and some antiquities could too be described as 'rocks' but I'm sure you would agree that it isnt an intellectually honest description for such items. Even if you think generalization isnt an issue, IF the translation this guy provided is true then listing the 'rocks' as having no value is pretty hard to defend when just 0.13% of that 150kg has a 'special 20% off sale price' of $178358.00 Now you might be thinking that this is an attempt by me to goad you into a fight given our online history on the list. Quite the contrary. I'd like to see you adresse this AlKathiri's point directly instead of just questioning his intentions. does it matter if one has export documentation for 'rocks' of this era taken out of oman? were there any laws on the books at the time these meteorites were taken out of oman that would prohibit such exportation? As far as I know the answer to both these questions is a most resounding NO. from what i have been able to dig up foriegn commerical activity in oman requires a permit, but lack of one doesnt mean meteorites without an export permit were removed illegaly. I personally feel that guys who are trying to 'protect' meteroites from commerical intrests are doing the greatest disservice to both collectors AND science that can possibly be done. Look at all of the meteorites that science has gotten to examine as a direct result of the commerical side of meteorites. Not only do meteorite hunters/dealers go out and find this material type specimins are provided at no cost to the researchers and in some cases labs actually charge a small fee to look at the material meaning they get cash revenue AND free samples to study. what possibly could be a better deal than that? As Martin Altman is fond to point out - look at the huge expense of the antartic meteorite recovery effort
Re: [meteorite-list] Beware of meteorite hunters
Meteorites have very little or no commercial value until studied so these I dont know how much money you guys have spent on unclassified rocks, but given what I have sent to morroco as a minor player I'd have to beg to differ with you on that one. rocks were unconditionally released under the permit in question.The mining law issued by Royal Decree No. 27/2003 prohibited the practice of all rock and mineral mining and exploratory activities and trading in the same without obtaining permissions from the Directorate-General of Minerals. well this is pretty straight foward. It means the practice of all rock and mineral mining and exploratory activities and trading in the same without obtaining permissions from the Directorate-General of Minerals is illegal. but that says NOTHING about the exportation of the material. So finding the rocks is against the law, but their removal from the country is not. meaning there should be no problems with private ownership of ANY material from oman. pre 2003 or rocks found yesterday - it shouldnt matter. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
AW: [meteorite-list] Beware of meteorite hunters
Again that discussion, and again I feel compelled to excrete my 2 cents, as I know those finders from that team. First there is no room for any suspicion, nor does it lead to any intuition to point with the finger to others, no matter from which direction. The team, which recovered the stones, acted in proper style and in an exemplary way. They did, where about no other team was caring, they went with their finds to the authorities and physically submitted the stones there and asked, whether they would be allowed to export them. To presume, that they were telling misleading information to the officials is absurd, there can't be any straighter information than to show the stones to the officials, who have to decide, whether they are o.k. for export or not. As you saw, they issued that document with header and stamp, which states that the team member mentioned in brackets is allowed to take with him 150kg of those rocks and that document served to the purpose, if the members would have been asked, when they left Oman, whether they have a permit to take the stuff with them. I guess, another definition of export permit does not exist. In the case of the most interesting stones, the colourful IMB-lunaites is to say, that at that point in Oman, it was absolutely not evident, that they were lunaites at all. Even later the institute, which should classify them, refused initially to analyze them, because they thought, that they are terrestrial rocks. But anyway, the Omani officials could have refused at any moment to issue the permit and they had the stones in their hands to do so. To calm Mr.Ali, the Hupes certainly have a translation of the paper, and not only the name of the exporter, but also the lines in Arabic letters are written by hand. Obviously this was at those times the usual way to issue such export permits. It might be, that Mr.Ali isn't content with that procedure, but then he should have scold the Ministry of Commerce and Industry that they allowed the export of the stones and not the sellers of that material and certainly not the finders, who took the efforts to legally export those stones, who did so at those times, where no team else, only the Suisse one, cared for any possible restrictions. At the ministry nobody took any agreement as a condition for the official export, nor did they issue other papers or a paper in a different form. Maybe nowadays there are different regulations in force, then in the beginning of 2003 obviously not (perhaps here the confusion originates, that the quoted mining law of 2003 wasn't in force yet?). So I think we can all calm, and that Mr.Ali wasn't aware, that not only to the Suisse teams export permits were issued, but to others too, is very understandable, because as far as I know, nobody else than those German teams ever asked for a permit. Btw it was not a single case, they obtained on 2 tours more such permits, but unfortunately, because they did saw any importance in those sheets, after they were home - and those were the times, where there weren't discussions about the legal status of the Oman finds raging - they threw them in the dustbin. At least that one survived. Thus we learned, that it is always helful first to check the facts, than to have superfluous discussions, to dwell on speculations or, how it unfortunately happens sometimes, to end in personal attacks. Peace on Earth, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Adam Hupe Gesendet: Montag, 10. Juli 2006 10:20 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Beware of meteorite hunters Bill, I legal terms, a meteorite is a rock in the most general sense. Now, mind your own business and don't bother me with your foul attitude. Why don't you go away, you do not contribute anything? Go away, scoot, move along! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Adam Hupe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 11:42 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Beware of meteorite hunters You still haven't answered the man's question. Surely he knows more about procedure in Oman than you. Why should the Omani's cooperate with you? You are unnecessary. I don't see you sharing resources and strewnfield data with the general public here and in Oman you don't even qualify as a member. Bill -- Original message -- From: Adam Hupe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Look at this interesting article that our friend Ali al Kathiri is involved with: Beware of meteorite hunters: http://www.newsbriefsoman.info/index.php?itemid=35 This is the kind of rhetoric that causes countries to leave meteorites off-limits to hunting instead of promoting a spirit of cooperation! Regards, Adam __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net
[meteorite-list] Beware of meteorite hunters
Look at this interesting article that our friend Ali al Kathiri is involved with: Beware of meteorite hunters: http://www.newsbriefsoman.info/index.php?itemid=35 This is the kind of rhetoric that causes countries to leave meteorites off-limits to hunting instead of promoting a spirit of cooperation! Regards, Adam __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
