[meteorite-list] Geophysics, meteorites, and Electron microscopy-QUESTION
Carl and Anne and Listers. Carl thank you for your explanation on SEM analysis. As for testing meteorites I assume they have to be a thin slice from what I had read. Now are there other tests where you can take 30mg of the meteorite and get the same result? But I would assume this would be destructive process because the fragment might have to be crushed up into power form. If this is the case, what equipment would be involved or process and is it more feasible to have the specimen in a thin section form. Why I ask is that some meteorites are super rare, and in order to have a SEM test, one must have a thin slice and from my understanding that takes about a gram or so of the meteorite in order for that to happen. Not good for the meteorite nor for the collection it comes from if its rare. As for the electron microscopy I asked Santa for one and also a scientist. I hope I have been good enough this year to get one in my stocking. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html [meteorite-list] Geophysics, meteorites, and Electron microscopy-QUESTIONCarl Agee agee at unm.edu Thu Sep 8 09:36:36 EDT 2011 Previous message: [meteorite-list] Geophysics, meteorites, and Electron microscopy-QUESTION Next message: [meteorite-list] Ad and new website announcement Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Hi Shawn, It's actually the electron microprobe that gives the quantitative analyses needed for classification of stony meteorites. The data is usually output in tables of oxide component concentrations in weight percent, totalling hopefully, to approximately 100%. The microprobe software lets you select which elements (expressed as oxides) to analyze and assign the element to one of the probe's spectrometers. The software will also give atomic concentrations to check for mineral stoichiometry. For metals and sulfides the output is usually in element percent. Calibration of the probe against known standards (minerals or compounds similar to what are in your meteorite) precedes the microprobe session and can take several hours. Once the probe is calibrated, you are good to go on your first unknown meteorite that would normally be in a polished thin section or polished epoxy-cast probe mount. Because the calibration is time consuming it is economical to do several samples in a single session. Sessions can go on for hours, and you can even set up a collection of x-y coordinates and let the auto-feature of the probe analyze different spots all night long. In the morning a stack of data would be be waiting for your perusal and evaluation. Of course there are other tests and analyses that contribute to a high quality meteorite classification, which include visual textural information from both polarizing microscope and SEM observation (e.g. shock effects, percent mineral make-up, weathering), and of course macroscopic characteristics seen in the hand sample. Oxygen isotopes are also great to have, especially as a "court of appeals" for borderline cases or for anomalous meteorites that don't fall into clear-cut geochemical groups. There are many other techniques such as isotopic age dating, cosmic ray exposure, bulk trace element analyses, and so on that enhance the characterization of a stony meteorite, but the electron microprobe is the work horse for most classification data. Someone who has done work on Ensisheim (LL6) and Saint-Séverin (LL6) could give a better answer that I can about the their subtle differences and whether the microprobe can distinguish between them, but my guess would be yes, especially when combined with SEM imaging. The length of time for classification from start to finish, including the write-up is variable. The initial ID or categorization of an unknown doesn't have to take long, that's what emerges in the first hour or so of microprobe analysis. But often, for a water-tight, authoritative classification, a second probe session may be required. Plus a lot of the time is spent puuzzling through the data and narrowing down the possibilities. It's like detective work, and personally I find it immensely engaging. Hope this helps, Carl Agee -- Carl B. Agee Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences MSC03 2050 University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM 87131-1126 Tel: (505) 750-7172 Fax: (505) 277-3577 Email: agee at unm.edu http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/pers/agee.html - On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Shawn Alan wrote: > Hello Carl and Listers > > Great post on scanning electron microscope (SEM) process, now does this > process also ID the whole classification of the meteorite which is used for > classifying
Re: [meteorite-list] Geophysics, meteorites, and Electron microscopy-QUESTION
Shawn, A probe mount can be much less than a gram but it depends on the texture of the sample. For example, I just finished some preliminary work on a new unclassified shergottite and had separated out a ~0.4 gram fragment for various tests, and used only about a third of that for the probe mount because it has a uniform grain size and is pretty homogeneous. If I am working on a polymict breccia, like a howardite, larger and multiple fragments may be needed. The ideal case is if you buy a polished thin section to go along with your hand sample, that way you don't have to mess with your display piece. The probe mounts/thin sections can also be used for ion probe work or laser ablation ICPMS which are both great for trace elements, and of course SEM for great images. Tell Santa he can pick up a new Cameca or JEOL electron probe for under $1M. The scientists are cheaper -- haha! Carl Agee -- Carl B. Agee Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences MSC03 2050 University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM 87131-1126 Tel: (505) 750-7172 Fax: (505) 277-3577 Email: a...@unm.edu http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/pers/agee.html On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Shawn Alan wrote: > Carl and Anne and Listers. > > Carl thank you for your explanation on SEM analysis. As for testing > meteorites I assume they have to be a thin slice from what I had read. Now > are there other tests where you can take 30mg of the meteorite and get the > same result? But I would assume this would be destructive process because the > fragment might have to be crushed up into power form. If this is the case, > what equipment would be involved or process and is it more feasible to have > the specimen in a thin section form. > > Why I ask is that some meteorites are super rare, and in order to have a SEM > test, one must have a thin slice and from my understanding that takes about a > gram or so of the meteorite in order for that to happen. Not good for the > meteorite nor for the collection it comes from if its rare. > > As for the electron microscopy I asked Santa for one and also a scientist. I > hope I have been good enough this year to get one in my stocking. > > Shawn Alan > IMCA 1633 > eBaystore > http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html > > > > > > > [meteorite-list] Geophysics, meteorites, and Electron microscopy-QUESTIONCarl > Agee agee at unm.edu > Thu Sep 8 09:36:36 EDT 2011 > > > Previous message: [meteorite-list] Geophysics, meteorites, and Electron > microscopy-QUESTION > Next message: [meteorite-list] Ad and new website announcement > Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] > > Hi Shawn, > > It's actually the electron microprobe that gives the quantitative > analyses needed for classification of stony meteorites. The data is > usually output in tables of oxide component concentrations in weight > percent, totalling hopefully, to approximately 100%. The microprobe > software lets you select which elements (expressed as oxides) to > analyze and assign the element to one of the probe's spectrometers. > The software will also give atomic concentrations to check for mineral > stoichiometry. For metals and sulfides the output is usually in > element percent. Calibration of the probe against known standards > (minerals or compounds similar to what are in your meteorite) precedes > the microprobe session and can take several hours. Once the probe is > calibrated, you are good to go on your first unknown meteorite that > would normally be in a polished thin section or polished epoxy-cast > probe mount. Because the calibration is time consuming it is > economical to do several samples in a single session. Sessions can go > on for hours, and you can even set up a collection of x-y coordinates > and let the auto-feature of the probe analyze different spots all > night long. In the morning a stack of data would be be waiting for > your perusal and evaluation. > > Of course there are other tests and analyses that contribute to a high > quality meteorite classification, which include visual textural > information from both polarizing microscope and SEM observation (e.g. > shock effects, percent mineral make-up, weathering), and of course > macroscopic characteristics seen in the hand sample. Oxygen isotopes > are also great to have, especially as a "court of appeals" for > borderline cases or for anomalous meteorites that don't fall into > clear-cut geochemical groups. There are many other techniques such as > isotopic age dating, cosmic ray exposure, bulk trace element analyses, > and so on that enhance the charact
Re: [meteorite-list] Geophysics, meteorites, and Electron microscopy-QUESTION
Thanks for the free tutorial, Dr. Agee! That was really enlightening. :) Doug Ross __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Geophysics, meteorites, and Electron microscopy-QUESTION
Hi Shawn, It's actually the electron microprobe that gives the quantitative analyses needed for classification of stony meteorites. The data is usually output in tables of oxide component concentrations in weight percent, totalling hopefully, to approximately 100%. The microprobe software lets you select which elements (expressed as oxides) to analyze and assign the element to one of the probe's spectrometers. The software will also give atomic concentrations to check for mineral stoichiometry. For metals and sulfides the output is usually in element percent. Calibration of the probe against known standards (minerals or compounds similar to what are in your meteorite) precedes the microprobe session and can take several hours. Once the probe is calibrated, you are good to go on your first unknown meteorite that would normally be in a polished thin section or polished epoxy-cast probe mount. Because the calibration is time consuming it is economical to do several samples in a single session. Sessions can go on for hours, and you can even set up a collection of x-y coordinates and let the auto-feature of the probe analyze different spots all night long. In the morning a stack of data would be be waiting for your perusal and evaluation. Of course there are other tests and analyses that contribute to a high quality meteorite classification, which include visual textural information from both polarizing microscope and SEM observation (e.g. shock effects, percent mineral make-up, weathering), and of course macroscopic characteristics seen in the hand sample. Oxygen isotopes are also great to have, especially as a "court of appeals" for borderline cases or for anomalous meteorites that don't fall into clear-cut geochemical groups. There are many other techniques such as isotopic age dating, cosmic ray exposure, bulk trace element analyses, and so on that enhance the characterization of a stony meteorite, but the electron microprobe is the work horse for most classification data. Someone who has done work on Ensisheim (LL6) and Saint-Séverin (LL6) could give a better answer that I can about the their subtle differences and whether the microprobe can distinguish between them, but my guess would be yes, especially when combined with SEM imaging. The length of time for classification from start to finish, including the write-up is variable. The initial ID or categorization of an unknown doesn't have to take long, that's what emerges in the first hour or so of microprobe analysis. But often, for a water-tight, authoritative classification, a second probe session may be required. Plus a lot of the time is spent puuzzling through the data and narrowing down the possibilities. It's like detective work, and personally I find it immensely engaging. Hope this helps, Carl Agee -- Carl B. Agee Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences MSC03 2050 University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM 87131-1126 Tel: (505) 750-7172 Fax: (505) 277-3577 Email: a...@unm.edu http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/pers/agee.html - On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Shawn Alan wrote: > Hello Carl and Listers > > Great post on scanning electron microscope (SEM) process, now does this > process also ID the whole classification of the meteorite which is used for > classifying meteorite for the Meteoritcal Bulletin database? I know alot of > school are discontinuing classifying meteorites is UNM also doing the same? > > Question if someone wanted this service to be done on a meteorite, how much > would it cost, cause these days money talks and helps everyone out when it > comes to classifying meteorites or confirming that the meteorite is the > meteorite suggested to be. Also can this process determine the difference > between Ensisheim (LL6) and Saint-Séverin (LL6) by the cosmic ray exposure or > terrestrial age. These two meteorites look identical and some can fake it. > Does SEM also cover that test or is that a different test? Lastly how long > does it take for you to classify a new meteorite from start to finish if its > a stony meteorite? > > > Shawn Alan > IMCA 1633 > eBaystore > http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html > > > > > [meteorite-list] Geophysics, meteorites, and Electron microscopyCarl Agee > agee at unm.edu > Tue Sep 6 12:27:18 EDT 2011 > > > Previous message: [meteorite-list] Geophysics, meteorites, and Electron > microscopy > Next message: [meteorite-list] FW: High Noon! > Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] > > A scanning electron microscope (SEM) is great for high magnification > images that also contain information about the chemical composition
[meteorite-list] Geophysics, meteorites, and Electron microscopy-QUESTION
Hello Carl and Listers Great post on scanning electron microscope (SEM) process, now does this process also ID the whole classification of the meteorite which is used for classifying meteorite for the Meteoritcal Bulletin database? I know alot of school are discontinuing classifying meteorites is UNM also doing the same? Question if someone wanted this service to be done on a meteorite, how much would it cost, cause these days money talks and helps everyone out when it comes to classifying meteorites or confirming that the meteorite is the meteorite suggested to be. Also can this process determine the difference between Ensisheim (LL6) and Saint-Séverin (LL6) by the cosmic ray exposure or terrestrial age. These two meteorites look identical and some can fake it. Does SEM also cover that test or is that a different test? Lastly how long does it take for you to classify a new meteorite from start to finish if its a stony meteorite? Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html [meteorite-list] Geophysics, meteorites, and Electron microscopyCarl Agee agee at unm.edu Tue Sep 6 12:27:18 EDT 2011 Previous message: [meteorite-list] Geophysics, meteorites, and Electron microscopy Next message: [meteorite-list] FW: High Noon! Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] A scanning electron microscope (SEM) is great for high magnification images that also contain information about the chemical composition of the different minerals in meteorites. SEM is also a quick way to do a qualitative analysis of a sample, say for example, detecting nickel in iron meteorites with energy dispersive spectroscopy (EDS). My instrument of choice for definitive ID of stony meteorites is the electron microprobe. This also has SEM imaging capability. In less the hour, on a calibrated electron microprobe, I can make a definitive ID, although unequilbrated chondrites can take more time to narrow down the possibilities. Some of the key geochemical quantities that help in categorizing are, Fe/Mn of olivines and pyroxenes, the fayalite and ferrosilite content of the olivines and pyroxenes, the anorthite-albite content of plagioclse, and a few other parameters, plus the percent mineralogy and other textural characteristics. So for a simple example lunar olivines usually have higher Fe/Mn than terrestrial basalt olivines. Check out this page's second figure for an overview of Fe/Mn versus plagioclase content of planetary basalts: http://www.imca.cc/mars/martian-meteorites.htm Carl Agee -- Carl B. Agee Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences MSC03 2050 University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM 87131-1126 Tel: (505) 750-7172 Fax: (505) 277-3577 Email: agee at unm.edu http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/pers/agee.html l-- Geophysics, meteorites, and Electron microscopy Barb and Jake Baker bakers5acres at frontiernet.net Tue Sep 6 10:50:46 EDT 2011 Previous message: [meteorite-list] [AD] Canyon Diablo 2,7 kg. CHEAP! Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Could someone tell me, in Microscopy 101 language: How is an electron microscope used in the study of meteorites? Using electron microscopy - what differences are apparent between meteorites and terrestrial rocks? For instance what are the microscopy differences between lunar basalt and terrestrial basalt? Thanks Previous message: [meteorite-list] Geophysics, meteorites, and Electron microscopy Next message: [meteorite-list] FW: High Noon! Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] More information about the Meteorite-list mailing list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Geophysics, meteorites, and Electron microscopy
A scanning electron microscope (SEM) is great for high magnification images that also contain information about the chemical composition of the different minerals in meteorites. SEM is also a quick way to do a qualitative analysis of a sample, say for example, detecting nickel in iron meteorites with energy dispersive spectroscopy (EDS). My instrument of choice for definitive ID of stony meteorites is the electron microprobe. This also has SEM imaging capability. In less the hour, on a calibrated electron microprobe, I can make a definitive ID, although unequilbrated chondrites can take more time to narrow down the possibilities. Some of the key geochemical quantities that help in categorizing are, Fe/Mn of olivines and pyroxenes, the fayalite and ferrosilite content of the olivines and pyroxenes, the anorthite-albite content of plagioclse, and a few other parameters, plus the percent mineralogy and other textural characteristics. So for a simple example lunar olivines usually have higher Fe/Mn than terrestrial basalt olivines. Check out this page's second figure for an overview of Fe/Mn versus plagioclase content of planetary basalts: http://www.imca.cc/mars/martian-meteorites.htm Carl Agee -- Carl B. Agee Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences MSC03 2050 University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM 87131-1126 Tel: (505) 750-7172 Fax: (505) 277-3577 Email: a...@unm.edu http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/pers/agee.html l-- Geophysics, meteorites, and Electron microscopy Barb and Jake Baker bakers5acres at frontiernet.net Tue Sep 6 10:50:46 EDT 2011 Previous message: [meteorite-list] [AD] Canyon Diablo 2,7 kg. CHEAP! Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Could someone tell me, in Microscopy 101 language: How is an electron microscope used in the study of meteorites? Using electron microscopy - what differences are apparent between meteorites and terrestrial rocks? For instance what are the microscopy differences between lunar basalt and terrestrial basalt? Thanks __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Geophysics, meteorites, and Electron microscopy
Could someone tell me, in Microscopy 101 language: How is an electron microscope used in the study of meteorites? Using electron microscopy - what differences are apparent between meteorites and terrestrial rocks? For instance what are the microscopy differences between lunar basalt and terrestrial basalt? Thanks __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
