Re: [meteorite-list] Met List Flame Wars
Dear Sterling and everyone Thanks for the information on libel law both here and the USA. Just to complicate things further, within the UK there are differences between English Law and Scottish Law (Scotland retains a separate legal system) though the differences are small. Actually my daughter is currently studying law at University, I should have asked her first! I will certainly not be leaving the list, though I often despair of the acrimony and viciousness. Wishing everyone a great day. Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals National Museums Collection Centre National Museums Scotland 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA Phone: +44 131 247 4283 p.david...@nms.ac.uk www.nms.ac.uk -Original Message- From: Sterling K. Webb [mailto:sterling_k_w...@sbcglobal.net] Sent: 20 August 2009 22:44 To: Peter Davidson; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Met List Flame Wars Peter Davidson said: like the UK, I am sure that the laws of libel in the US... The Laws of Libel in the U.S. and the U.K. are as unlike as any laws bearing a similar name could be. U.K. Libel Law is a unique construction of the very concept of Libel as it is conceived of in the U.S and much of the rest of the world. Some would say U.K. Libel Law is an unique perversion of the concept. All despite the fact that U.S. and U.K. grow from the same root stock. However, I cannot explain why in an email sent to the U.K. for fear of U.K. Libel Law. Neither can I state that a U.K. chiropractor cannot cure you of leukemia by twiddling with your vertebrae. I can't speak on that issue -- sorry. It was recently ruled in the U.K. that defamatory postings on a message board (and presumably, a mailing list like this) are slander, not libel, akin to casual conversation in a bar, much less likely to be actionable. http://www.urban75.org/info/libel.html One could conceivably defend one's self by the evidence that many on this board were intoxicated by eating quantities of extraterrestrial matter, for example. Worth a try. It does sound at times like the posters are three sails to the wind. More of the wonders of U.K. Libel Law: http://www.citmedialaw.org/blog/2009/warning-uk-libel-law-may-be-hazardo us-your-health http://www.thelegalweek.merseyblogs.co.uk/2008/10/blog_uk_libel_law_v_fr eedom_of.html\ http://www.englishpen.org/aboutenglishpen/campaigns/reformingthelibellaw s/ and quickly, before the Law Lords shut down the Internet: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2006/aug/31/news.politicsandthemedi a As for the appearance -- got to be careful not to libel anybody here -- that some of us are allowing our passions to get in the way of our reasoning? It will take more any Libel Law to stop that. Just sit back and enjoy it. Order another Martian Cocktail. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Peter Davidson p.david...@nms.ac.uk To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 2:58 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Met List Flame Wars Richard and Other Like you, I am a relative newcomer to this list. Like you in the short time I have been a member, I have been shocked at some of the language and accusations being flung around. I can already hear some list members saying, Well! If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Nevertheless, like the UK, I am sure that the laws of libel in the US apply to e-mail as well as other forms of written communication. I know that everyone on the list is passionate about meteorites, otherwise why are we here, but some of us are allowing our passions to get in the way of our reasoning. We are all grown-ups, so let's act like them. Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals Department of Natural Sciences National Museums Scotland National Museums Collection Centre 242 West Granton Road EDINBURGH EH5 1JA Scotland Tel: 00 44 131 247 4283 E-mail: p.david...@nms.ac.uk -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Richard Kowalski Sent: 19 August 2009 19:25 To: meteorite list Subject: [meteorite-list] Met List Flame Wars I hope that this email doesn't offend anyone. I mention two particular people who I won't name, but for the most part I am speaking in general. I've been on this list for several months now. I joined for all the reasons people usually join a mailing list; To make contacts with others that have similar interests to learn from these other people, and hopefully to eventually contribute something of substance to the group. For the first week or so after I joined the list, I started learning the players, and learning a bit more about meteorites. After about a week, someone posted a message about some material they had to offer. Another person asked what it was and whoo
Re: [meteorite-list] Met List Flame Wars
On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 11:37:00 +0100, you wrote: Thanks for the information on libel law both here and the USA. Just to complicate things further, within the UK there are differences between English Law and Scottish Law (Scotland retains a separate legal system) Yes, you must be careful what you say in Scotlant-- it can get you kilt. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Met List Flame Wars
Richard and Other Like you, I am a relative newcomer to this list. Like you in the short time I have been a member, I have been shocked at some of the language and accusations being flung around. I can already hear some list members saying, Well! If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Nevertheless, like the UK, I am sure that the laws of libel in the US apply to e-mail as well as other forms of written communication. I know that everyone on the list is passionate about meteorites, otherwise why are we here, but some of us are allowing our passions to get in the way of our reasoning. We are all grown-ups, so let's act like them. Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals Department of Natural Sciences National Museums Scotland National Museums Collection Centre 242 West Granton Road EDINBURGH EH5 1JA Scotland Tel: 00 44 131 247 4283 E-mail: p.david...@nms.ac.uk -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Richard Kowalski Sent: 19 August 2009 19:25 To: meteorite list Subject: [meteorite-list] Met List Flame Wars I hope that this email doesn't offend anyone. I mention two particular people who I won't name, but for the most part I am speaking in general. I've been on this list for several months now. I joined for all the reasons people usually join a mailing list; To make contacts with others that have similar interests to learn from these other people, and hopefully to eventually contribute something of substance to the group. For the first week or so after I joined the list, I started learning the players, and learning a bit more about meteorites. After about a week, someone posted a message about some material they had to offer. Another person asked what it was and whoo classified it. The first person answered the questions. Simple, clear and exactly as one would expect. Both were reasonable and courteous to the other. As a new collector who knew only a few people in the field, this interaction was exactly what I wanted to see. Since the meteorite market is so thin and a lot of it is based on faith, faith that what is being offered is exactly what is being represented. It is important to me that the people I interact with, and purchase from, act professionally at all times. I have to have faith in this person. I have to trust them. This goes for the full time dealer as well as the vest pocket dealer who sells to improve his or her personal collection... I have purchased from both of these people, one of them has provided me with a large percentage of my collection purchases since then. I won't hesitate buying from either one... Having a good reputation is important to me. Being professional is too. What shocked me, as a new member was how many other people jumped in, making wild accusations, going off on tangents, much of which was not even remotely related to the original post, the question, or the reply. It was an eye opening event for me. A number of people who sell lost any chance to get my business. Since then there have been multiple flare ups, which has further reduced the pool of sellers I will do business with. Those I have lost faith in; Those who I can't trust. I wonder how many people lurk on this list and pay close attention to who acts like a professional at all times and who does not. I have no doubt there are others like me who will not do business with anyone who does not present a professional demeanor most or all of the time. (We all have our moments) Of course people who don't sell don't really care about this, but that shouldn't be an excuse. The Golden Rule should apply... Some of the people on this list are also on the list I have run for over a decade, the Minor Planet Mailing List. That list has over 1200 subscribers and has a great mix of both professional and amateur astronomers with the common interest in asteroids and comets. I run the list with a very light hand. Scientific discussion and debate are welcome and encouraged, but one of the things that will get you moderated or banned is personal attacks. One of the worst things that can happen to any mailing list is unbridled flames wars. I recently read here that this list was filled with scientists in the field of meteoritics, but now most have gone. Apparently previous flames caused them to leave. Thats a sad comment. I am in no way telling this list's owner how to run the list, but we have found that this policy works extremely well on MPML. Those who do make personal attacks rarely contribute anything of substance to the list, so losing them is not much of a loss... Please keep the great information coming. It is what makes being a member of this list worth while. Please reconsider your posts before hitting the send button if there is no useful information in your message... Sorry for the length of this email. Thanks for letting me comment. -- Richard Kowalski http://fullmoonphotography.net IMCA
Re: [meteorite-list] Met List Flame Wars
Peter Davidson said: like the UK, I am sure that the laws of libel in the US... The Laws of Libel in the U.S. and the U.K. are as unlike as any laws bearing a similar name could be. U.K. Libel Law is a unique construction of the very concept of Libel as it is conceived of in the U.S and much of the rest of the world. Some would say U.K. Libel Law is an unique perversion of the concept. All despite the fact that U.S. and U.K. grow from the same root stock. However, I cannot explain why in an email sent to the U.K. for fear of U.K. Libel Law. Neither can I state that a U.K. chiropractor cannot cure you of leukemia by twiddling with your vertebrae. I can't speak on that issue -- sorry. It was recently ruled in the U.K. that defamatory postings on a message board (and presumably, a mailing list like this) are slander, not libel, akin to casual conversation in a bar, much less likely to be actionable. http://www.urban75.org/info/libel.html One could conceivably defend one's self by the evidence that many on this board were intoxicated by eating quantities of extraterrestrial matter, for example. Worth a try. It does sound at times like the posters are three sails to the wind. More of the wonders of U.K. Libel Law: http://www.citmedialaw.org/blog/2009/warning-uk-libel-law-may-be-hazardous-your-health http://www.thelegalweek.merseyblogs.co.uk/2008/10/blog_uk_libel_law_v_freedom_of.html\ http://www.englishpen.org/aboutenglishpen/campaigns/reformingthelibellaws/ and quickly, before the Law Lords shut down the Internet: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2006/aug/31/news.politicsandthemedia As for the appearance -- got to be careful not to libel anybody here -- that some of us are allowing our passions to get in the way of our reasoning? It will take more any Libel Law to stop that. Just sit back and enjoy it. Order another Martian Cocktail. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Peter Davidson p.david...@nms.ac.uk To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 2:58 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Met List Flame Wars Richard and Other Like you, I am a relative newcomer to this list. Like you in the short time I have been a member, I have been shocked at some of the language and accusations being flung around. I can already hear some list members saying, Well! If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Nevertheless, like the UK, I am sure that the laws of libel in the US apply to e-mail as well as other forms of written communication. I know that everyone on the list is passionate about meteorites, otherwise why are we here, but some of us are allowing our passions to get in the way of our reasoning. We are all grown-ups, so let's act like them. Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals Department of Natural Sciences National Museums Scotland National Museums Collection Centre 242 West Granton Road EDINBURGH EH5 1JA Scotland Tel: 00 44 131 247 4283 E-mail: p.david...@nms.ac.uk -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Richard Kowalski Sent: 19 August 2009 19:25 To: meteorite list Subject: [meteorite-list] Met List Flame Wars I hope that this email doesn't offend anyone. I mention two particular people who I won't name, but for the most part I am speaking in general. I've been on this list for several months now. I joined for all the reasons people usually join a mailing list; To make contacts with others that have similar interests to learn from these other people, and hopefully to eventually contribute something of substance to the group. For the first week or so after I joined the list, I started learning the players, and learning a bit more about meteorites. After about a week, someone posted a message about some material they had to offer. Another person asked what it was and whoo classified it. The first person answered the questions. Simple, clear and exactly as one would expect. Both were reasonable and courteous to the other. As a new collector who knew only a few people in the field, this interaction was exactly what I wanted to see. Since the meteorite market is so thin and a lot of it is based on faith, faith that what is being offered is exactly what is being represented. It is important to me that the people I interact with, and purchase from, act professionally at all times. I have to have faith in this person. I have to trust them. This goes for the full time dealer as well as the vest pocket dealer who sells to improve his or her personal collection... I have purchased from both of these people, one of them has provided me with a large percentage of my collection purchases since then. I won't hesitate buying from either one... Having a good reputation is important to me. Being professional is too. What shocked
[meteorite-list] Met List Flame Wars
I hope that this email doesn't offend anyone. I mention two particular people who I won't name, but for the most part I am speaking in general. I've been on this list for several months now. I joined for all the reasons people usually join a mailing list; To make contacts with others that have similar interests to learn from these other people, and hopefully to eventually contribute something of substance to the group. For the first week or so after I joined the list, I started learning the players, and learning a bit more about meteorites. After about a week, someone posted a message about some material they had to offer. Another person asked what it was and whoo classified it. The first person answered the questions. Simple, clear and exactly as one would expect. Both were reasonable and courteous to the other. As a new collector who knew only a few people in the field, this interaction was exactly what I wanted to see. Since the meteorite market is so thin and a lot of it is based on faith, faith that what is being offered is exactly what is being represented. It is important to me that the people I interact with, and purchase from, act professionally at all times. I have to have faith in this person. I have to trust them. This goes for the full time dealer as well as the vest pocket dealer who sells to improve his or her personal collection... I have purchased from both of these people, one of them has provided me with a large percentage of my collection purchases since then. I won't hesitate buying from either one... Having a good reputation is important to me. Being professional is too. What shocked me, as a new member was how many other people jumped in, making wild accusations, going off on tangents, much of which was not even remotely related to the original post, the question, or the reply. It was an eye opening event for me. A number of people who sell lost any chance to get my business. Since then there have been multiple flare ups, which has further reduced the pool of sellers I will do business with. Those I have lost faith in; Those who I can't trust. I wonder how many people lurk on this list and pay close attention to who acts like a professional at all times and who does not. I have no doubt there are others like me who will not do business with anyone who does not present a professional demeanor most or all of the time. (We all have our moments) Of course people who don't sell don't really care about this, but that shouldn't be an excuse. The Golden Rule should apply... Some of the people on this list are also on the list I have run for over a decade, the Minor Planet Mailing List. That list has over 1200 subscribers and has a great mix of both professional and amateur astronomers with the common interest in asteroids and comets. I run the list with a very light hand. Scientific discussion and debate are welcome and encouraged, but one of the things that will get you moderated or banned is personal attacks. One of the worst things that can happen to any mailing list is unbridled flames wars. I recently read here that this list was filled with scientists in the field of meteoritics, but now most have gone. Apparently previous flames caused them to leave. Thats a sad comment. I am in no way telling this list's owner how to run the list, but we have found that this policy works extremely well on MPML. Those who do make personal attacks rarely contribute anything of substance to the list, so losing them is not much of a loss... Please keep the great information coming. It is what makes being a member of this list worth while. Please reconsider your posts before hitting the send button if there is no useful information in your message... Sorry for the length of this email. Thanks for letting me comment. -- Richard Kowalski http://fullmoonphotography.net IMCA #1081 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Met List Flame Wars
Amen brother. I wonder how many people lurk on this list and pay close attention to who acts like a professional at all times and who does not. I have no doubt there are others like me who will not do business with anyone who does not present a professional demeanor most or all of the time. (We all have our moments) I can not agree more with this statement. As a new comer to this I was horrified and embarrassed by the content of a lot of the messages that came across it. Unfortunately, this list was my first impression of the meteorite community and while I have met some very amazing and brilliant people through this list, the conduct and arrogance from the bad apples has left a bad taste in my mouth regarding this community as a whole. The simple fact that the largest thread on this list since I've been on here was titled Who is the best meteorite hunter in the world, speaks volumes. A problem I have witnessed in many industries over many years is that really smart people sometimes get a little full of themselves (because they are so smart). The first job I had out of college was for the Credit Card company Visa. There were 100s of brilliant software engineers that worked in my office. Sometimes they were too smart for anyone else, so smart they were often blind to things that were right in front of their face (like the internet becoming the power house of e-commerce (job was in 94). I remember my boss saying to these guys in a meeting once, when they were acting like arrogant fools: we aren't curing cancer here guys. get a grip. I will be spending 10s of thousands of dollars on meteorites in the next year. 100s of thousands of dollars on meteorites over the next 5 years (yes I'm totally hooked on these things). I will absolutely never buy anything from anyone who has acted out or been a prick on this list. Before I make a purchase I search the meteorite list archives for the seller, and if they are a jerk I look else where. Being nice is good for business. Sincerely, Mike Hankey http://www.mikesastrophotos.com On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Richard Kowalskidamoc...@yahoo.com wrote: I hope that this email doesn't offend anyone. I mention two particular people who I won't name, but for the most part I am speaking in general. I've been on this list for several months now. I joined for all the reasons people usually join a mailing list; To make contacts with others that have similar interests to learn from these other people, and hopefully to eventually contribute something of substance to the group. For the first week or so after I joined the list, I started learning the players, and learning a bit more about meteorites. After about a week, someone posted a message about some material they had to offer. Another person asked what it was and whoo classified it. The first person answered the questions. Simple, clear and exactly as one would expect. Both were reasonable and courteous to the other. As a new collector who knew only a few people in the field, this interaction was exactly what I wanted to see. Since the meteorite market is so thin and a lot of it is based on faith, faith that what is being offered is exactly what is being represented. It is important to me that the people I interact with, and purchase from, act professionally at all times. I have to have faith in this person. I have to trust them. This goes for the full time dealer as well as the vest pocket dealer who sells to improve his or her personal collection... I have purchased from both of these people, one of them has provided me with a large percentage of my collection purchases since then. I won't hesitate buying from either one... Having a good reputation is important to me. Being professional is too. What shocked me, as a new member was how many other people jumped in, making wild accusations, going off on tangents, much of which was not even remotely related to the original post, the question, or the reply. It was an eye opening event for me. A number of people who sell lost any chance to get my business. Since then there have been multiple flare ups, which has further reduced the pool of sellers I will do business with. Those I have lost faith in; Those who I can't trust. I wonder how many people lurk on this list and pay close attention to who acts like a professional at all times and who does not. I have no doubt there are others like me who will not do business with anyone who does not present a professional demeanor most or all of the time. (We all have our moments) Of course people who don't sell don't really care about this, but that shouldn't be an excuse. The Golden Rule should apply... Some of the people on this list are also on the list I have run for over a decade, the Minor Planet Mailing List. That list has over 1200 subscribers and has a great mix of both professional and amateur astronomers with the common interest in
Re: [meteorite-list] Met List Flame Wars
I wonder how many people lurk on this list and pay close attention to who acts like a professional at all times and who does not. I have no doubt there are others like me who will not do business with anyone who does not present a professional demeanor most or all of the time. (We all have our moments) Count me in as a new lurker and cautious buyer for these very reasons (Perhaps for every one who speaks up, there are a dozen who remain silent.) For other newcomers like me who are baffled by the petty bickering, I highly recommend the archives. There is a tremendous amount of great information and history out there! Gracie __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Met List Flame Wars
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Re: [meteorite-list] Met List Flame Wars
Hi Mike, I too am fairly new to the meteorite scene. I've been collecting for about 3 years. I second all that you wrote and say a hearty Amen to it. I'm not in the same financial position that you apparently are or I would also buy hundreds of thousands worth of meteorites. Must be nice. Anyway, I hope that you stick to your guns and buy from the good guys. They deserve it. Welcome to the community. Greg Lindh Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 15:51:05 -0400 From: mike.han...@gmail.com To: damoc...@yahoo.com CC: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Met List Flame Wars Amen brother. I wonder how many people lurk on this list and pay close attention to who acts like a professional at all times and who does not. I have no doubt there are others like me who will not do business with anyone who does not present a professional demeanor most or all of the time. (We all have our moments) I can not agree more with this statement. As a new comer to this I was horrified and embarrassed by the content of a lot of the messages that came across it. Unfortunately, this list was my first impression of the meteorite community and while I have met some very amazing and brilliant people through this list, the conduct and arrogance from the bad apples has left a bad taste in my mouth regarding this community as a whole. The simple fact that the largest thread on this list since I've been on here was titled Who is the best meteorite hunter in the world, speaks volumes. A problem I have witnessed in many industries over many years is that really smart people sometimes get a little full of themselves (because they are so smart). The first job I had out of college was for the Credit Card company Visa. There were 100s of brilliant software engineers that worked in my office. Sometimes they were too smart for anyone else, so smart they were often blind to things that were right in front of their face (like the internet becoming the power house of e-commerce (job was in 94). I remember my boss saying to these guys in a meeting once, when they were acting like arrogant fools: we aren't curing cancer here guys. get a grip. I will be spending 10s of thousands of dollars on meteorites in the next year. 100s of thousands of dollars on meteorites over the next 5 years (yes I'm totally hooked on these things). I will absolutely never buy anything from anyone who has acted out or been a prick on this list. Before I make a purchase I search the meteorite list archives for the seller, and if they are a jerk I look else where. Being nice is good for business. Sincerely, Mike Hankey http://www.mikesastrophotos.com On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Richard Kowalski wrote: I hope that this email doesn't offend anyone. I mention two particular people who I won't name, but for the most part I am speaking in general. I've been on this list for several months now. I joined for all the reasons people usually join a mailing list; To make contacts with others that have similar interests to learn from these other people, and hopefully to eventually contribute something of substance to the group. For the first week or so after I joined the list, I started learning the players, and learning a bit more about meteorites. After about a week, someone posted a message about some material they had to offer. Another person asked what it was and whoo classified it. The first person answered the questions. Simple, clear and exactly as one would expect. Both were reasonable and courteous to the other. As a new collector who knew only a few people in the field, this interaction was exactly what I wanted to see. Since the meteorite market is so thin and a lot of it is based on faith, faith that what is being offered is exactly what is being represented. It is important to me that the people I interact with, and purchase from, act professionally at all times. I have to have faith in this person. I have to trust them. This goes for the full time dealer as well as the vest pocket dealer who sells to improve his or her personal collection... I have purchased from both of these people, one of them has provided me with a large percentage of my collection purchases since then. I won't hesitate buying from either one... Having a good reputation is important to me. Being professional is too. What shocked me, as a new member was how many other people jumped in, making wild accusations, going off on tangents, much of which was not even remotely related to the original post, the question, or the reply. It was an eye opening event for me. A number of people who sell lost any chance to get my business. Since then there have been multiple flare ups, which has further reduced the pool of sellers I will do business with. Those I have lost faith in; Those who I can't trust. I wonder how many people lurk
