Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite deaths in Qingyang (Ch'ing-yang) in 1490

[countdeiro]

I agree, Jim. That's a helluva idea. 
Guido

-Original Message-
>From: meteorite...@comcast.net
>Sent: Jan 2, 2010 6:45 AM
>To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite deaths in Qingyang (Ch'ing-yang) in
>1490
>
>
>This Qingyang story sounds like an opportunity for the "Meteorite Men" series. 
>It would be a great episode for Geoff and Steve to go there and uncover the 
>story in detail, and possibly find some of the meteorites.
>
>Jim K
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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite deaths in Qingyang (Ch'ing-yang) in 1490

[meteoriteman]

This Qingyang story sounds like an opportunity for the "Meteorite Men" series. 
It would be a great episode for Geoff and Steve to go there and uncover the 
story in detail, and possibly find some of the meteorites.

Jim K
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[meteorite-list] Meteorite deaths in Qingyang (Ch'ing-yang) in 1490

[Sterling K. Webb]

Hi, List, Paul,

A new List member, Robert A. Juhl (aa...@mac.com)
was having trouble posting this message to the List, so
I'm passing it along for him.

It contains a lot of source details about the 1490 meteorite
fall in Ch'ing-yang, Shansi (modern spelling Qingyang and
is now in Gansu Province). Lots of fascinating details!


Sterling K. Webb

Here is Robert's email:

The March-April 1490 event is well attested. The standard source for
information on meteor sightings and other celestial phenomena in China
is Zhongguo gudai tianxiang jilu zongji, (Complete collection of
records of celestial phenomena in ancient China), published under the
auspices of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, Nanjing, 1988.

One section of this book is devoted to meteor falls. The March-April
1490 event is covered on pgs 73-74. Ten works mention the event. Of
these, the most important is the official History of the Ming Dynasty.
The other works are local gazettes, histories, etc.

The record of the event in the official History of the Ming Dynasty is
terse. It says only that there was a rain of innumerable stones of
various sizes. The big ones were as large as a goose egg, and the
small ones were the size of the fruit of an aquatic plant. The date
given is the third (lunar) month of 1490 (21 Mar-19 Apr 1490). The
location was Qingyang in Shaanxi Province. In other words, the
official history does not mention the deaths. Perhaps there was a
political reason not to mention them.

However, many sources mention the deaths. One semi-official source
says the official in charge of Shaanxi Province sent in a report to
the central government stating there had been a rain of stones in
Qingyang County of Shaanxi. The large ones weighed 4-5 jin and the
small ones weighed 2-3 jin (a modern jin is about 605 grams; offhand,
I don't know the weight of the jin at that time). The number of people
who were struck and died from the stones was several ten-thousands. A
separate source mentions that all the residents of one city fled
elsewhere under the rain of stones. The semi-official report above and
two others date the fall in the second lunar month. One source dates
the fall on 4 Apr 1490 (in the 3rd lunar month). And the rest of the
sources date the fall in the 3rd lunar month.

Incidentally, nowadays Qingyang is in China's Gansu Province. Just
input Qingyang into Google Earth and select the Qingyang in Gansu.

Best wishes and Happy New Year

Robert A. Juhl (aa...@mac.com)

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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Deaths? Interesting old article-read

[Paul Heinrich]

Susan K. Webb wrote:

"Most of the bulk of my post involved the old Chinese
recorded incidents. Lewis took those from the Yau,
Weissman and Yeomans' paper:"

Yau, K., P. Weissman, and D. Yeomans, 1994, Meteorite
Falls in China and Some Related Human Casualty Events.
Meteoritics. vol. 29, pp. 864-871.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1994Metic..29..864Y

PDF file at: http://tiny.cc/ChineseFalls or

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1994Metic..29..864Y&data_type=PDF_HIGH&whole_paper=YES&type=PRINTER&filetype=.pdf

Thank you for the citation and reference to the Chinese
falls. It is a rather interesting and very useful paper.

Webb also wrote;

"Paul's response suggests that field work
could be profitable if the site could be
located. That took me by surprise; I assumed
too much time had passed. It's an exciting
thought."

I agree with you that this is a very interesting thought.
It the case of the reported falls that involve just a few
stones, it highly unlikely that much of anything could
be found.

However, in case of certain reported falls, in which
it appears that thousands of pieces might have fell,
I think even after a few hundred years, that there is
a fair chance that there might still be meteorites that
can be found. I suspect, if a person took into account
what geoarchaeologists call "site formation processes"
and used what is known about the geomorphology and
geomorphologic history of the area, a good geomorphologist
/ geologist / geoarchaeology could make specific
predictions as to where any meteorites from a fall
eventually came to rest and where to best look for them.
It is matter of using the enormous amount of knowledge
already gathered about geomorphology, surficial
landscape processes, and "site formation processes" to
predict the best places to look for meteorites deposited
from a possible fall.

Of course after several hundred years, any meteorites found
would likely be too weathered to be of any interest to
collectors. However, I suspect that scientifically useful
information can still be collected despite how badly
weathered the specimens might be. Of course, any search
for such reported falls would not be easy and there would
be no guarantee of success.

Looking at Yau et al. (1994), the reported 1490 fall, in my
opinion, might be a promising candidate for a search for
meteorites because of both the reported number of objects
and the reported size, 1.0 to 1.5 kg, of individual pieces.
Unfortunately, at this time, I cannot determine what the
modern name for Ch'ing-yang, China and its exact location
is at this time given the different and changing ways that
Chinese names have been and are transliterated into English.

Best Wishes,

Paul H.

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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Deaths? Interesting old article-read

[Sterling K. Webb]

ed version of it is widely quoted
on websites from sober to whacky (who add Firestone, who is
whacky, and Baillie, who is not). He's not responsible for that.
Or do you hold him responsible?

Examples of such references (good and bad):

http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/icq/meteorites.html

http://www.oberlin.edu/faculty/bsimonso/group9.htm

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/151954-Meteorites-Asteroids-and-Comets-Damages-Disasters-Injuries-Deaths-and-Very-Close-Calls

Another reference about historic damaging events is:
   Halliday, I., A.T. Blackwell, and A.A. Griffin.
"Meteorite Impacts on Humans and Buildings."
Nature 318, 317, but I can't find a copy.
   There are a number of interesting-sounding papers
by this team that bear on determining an accurate fall
rate, but I can't get to any of them without bribing The
Lords Who Own All Knowledge with exorbitant sums
from my hoard of ancient gold coins...

As the kid at Holbrook yelled, "Maw! It's raining rocks!"


Sterling K. Webb
----------
- Original Message - 
From: 

To: "Sterling K. Webb" 
Cc: ; 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:02 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Deaths? Interesting old 
article-read




Hi Sterling:

The events quoted by you from John Lewis' book are open to 
interpretation.

Similar interpretations give us:

Ezekiel saw a flying saucer

And, for those who like interpretations of the Bible and other 
writings:


Joshua made the Earth stand still: This was due to the fact that Venus 
was
a comet that was spun off(?) from Jupiter (do not remember if this was 
the
source of the Great Red Spot) and flew by the Earth twice before 
becoming
a new planet. My memory is a little hazy on this, but I think this is 
also
the source of our oil. [I. Velikovsky] I think that it has been 
claimed
that this was confirmed when we found out that Venus was hot, having 
been

predicted by Velikovsky.

Larry

PS Sterling: Are you going to make me go back a reread the book to 
give

you more specific references?


Hi, Matt, List,

On September 14, 1511, in Cremona in Lombardy,
Italy, a monk, several birds, and a sheep were killed
by meteorites.

Sometime between 1647 and 1654, two sailors on a
ship en route from Japan to Sicily, while in the Indian
Ocean, were killed by meteorites.

Sometime between 1633 and 1664, a monk in Milan
was killed by a meteorite which severed his femoral
artery, causing him to bleed to death.

Chinese records of lethal impact events include the
death of 10 victims from a meteorite fall in 616 AD, an
"iron rain" in the O-chia district in the 14th century
that killed people and animals, several soldiers injured
by the fall of a "large star" in Ho-t'ao in 1369, and many
others. The most startling is a report of an event in early
1490 in Ch'ing-yang, Shansi, in which many people
were killed when stones "fell like rain." Of the three
known surviving reports of this event, one says that
"over 10,000 people" were killed, and one says that
"several tens of thousands" were killed.

There is a discussion of these and many more such
incidents in John S. Lewis, "Rain of Iron and Ice," 1996.

One could collect pages and pages of early accounts of
meteorite falls and pages more of events that could well
be meteoritic although those that wrote the accounts
did not know of the idea that stones could fall from the
sky. You could fill a book... and people have.

A catalogue of meteorites is not a book of reported falls;
it is a book of collected and curated falls. The oldest
curated stone is NOGATA, which fell May 19, 861 AD.
It hit a shrine and has been kept there ever since. The
meteorite that hit a house in NARA (then the capital
city of Japan) in 764 AD doesn't count because nobody
has it safely curated.


...can they be substantiated?


No more or less than the rest of history. They tell me
Julius Caesar was assassinated. That's the story. Most
agree that it happened. No one wrote to deny it. It's the
story I always heard, so I believe it, like I do all the rest
of history. But I wasn't there, I haven't checked the DNA
on the dagger, I don't know where he was buried, I haven't
read the autopsy report. I'm more than a carpet fiber away
from proving the case...

Three Chinese historical chronicles recount the huge
meteorite fall and thousands of deaths in Ch'ing-yang,
Shansi, in late February or early March of 1490. It's as
much history as Caesar's assassination is, no more, no
less. It's as "substantiated" as any history. There were
no Ming Dynasty tabloid news stories. History-writing
was politically sensitive and historians were occasionally
executed for falsity, particularly about "heavenly" events.


Sterling K. Webb
-

Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Deaths? Interesting old article-read

[tracy latimer]

The falls you mention seem to be concentrated around the era in the Western 
hemisphere loosely called 'the Dark Ages.'  While I have no reason to doubt 
that the people involved died, possibly even by meteorite, I find it odd that 
so many fatalities happened within a relatively limited time span, and they 
were identified as 'death by meteorite'.  It wasn't until the 17- or 1800s that 
scientists even believed that rocks could fall from the sky.  I'd want more 
proof before I wrote up that CSI report!
 
Best!
Tracy Latimer


> From: sterling_k_w...@sbcglobal.net

>
> One could collect pages and pages of early accounts of
> meteorite falls and pages more of events that could well
> be meteoritic although those that wrote the accounts
> did not know of the idea that stones could fall from the
> sky. You could fill a book... and people have.
>   
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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite deaths

[lebofsky]

Paul:

For all of his "research" on these falls, Lewis did not make any effort to
try to validate the events beyond his interpretation of the writings. It
has been a long time since I read the book or talked to him about it.

Larry

> Grondine asked:
>
> "Has anyone ever thought of going to those fall sites
> in China and hunting them? Or doing archeology in
> the case of the larger falls?"
>
> I have not heard of anyone attempting to find evidence
> of the larger falls. However, that does not mean much
> because usually the results of such research when it is
> negative (nobody finds anything) is typically not published
> simply because either the authors or editors do not
> consider such negative results as being significance
> enough to publish.
>
> It is a very good question for which I do not have an answer.
>
> Yours,
>
> Paul H.
>
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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite deaths

[Paul Heinrich]

Grondine asked:

"Has anyone ever thought of going to those fall sites
in China and hunting them? Or doing archeology in
the case of the larger falls?"

I have not heard of anyone attempting to find evidence
of the larger falls. However, that does not mean much
because usually the results of such research when it is
negative (nobody finds anything) is typically not published
simply because either the authors or editors do not
consider such negative results as being significance
enough to publish.

It is a very good question for which I do not have an answer.

Yours,

Paul H.

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[meteorite-list] Meteorite Deaths? Interesting old article-read

[Paul Heinrich]

One of the instances of a reported meteorite fall that
resulted in human deaths that Sterling K. Webb quoted:

"The most startling is a report of an event in early
1490 in Ch'ing-yang, Shansi, in which many people
were killed when stones "fell like rain." Of the three
known surviving reports of this event, one says that
"over 10,000 people" were killed, and one says that
"several tens of thousands" were killed."

Does anyone know where Ch'ing-yang, Shansi is in China?

I ask this question because, unlike many of the other
alleged meteorite falls reported to have caused either
injury or death to humans, this fall, as reported, would
have been extensive enough to have left behind some
sort of "findable" physical evidence in the form of
actual meteorites. Applying the basic principles of
geomorphology, Quaternary geology, and site formation
processes as developed by archaeologists, a well-
trained Quaternary geologist, archaeological geologist,
or geomorphologists should be able to locate the
landforms and colluvial or fluvial deposits of the right
age in which any of these numerous meteorites would
have been concentrated and either them or their
weathered remains possibly preserved

For example, on landforms that predate 1490, the
meteorites would have been buried by bioturbation.
As the local soils were churned by farming and
soil fauna, any meteorites that would have fallen on
the land surface would have eventually sunk to the
base of the soil's biomantle. As a result, they would
be concentrated as a layer at the base of bioturbation
called a "carpedolith".  In gullies and other exposures,
they would occur as a "stone line" at the base of the
biomantle. Also, using what is known about the
archaeology and geomorphology of the area, a
person could locate the buried land surfaces or
deposits of the right age and origin that should contain
these meteorites, if they indeed exist.

This is the sort of methodology I discuss in relationship
to the alleged tektites found in Rapides Parish, Louisiana  
in "Reevaluation of Tektites Reported from. Rapides

Parish, Louisiana" at either:

http://www.lgs.lsu.edu/deploy/uploads/Summer_09_LGS_Newsletter.pdf or

http://www.scribd.com/doc/18698759/Alleged-Tektites-From-Rapides-Parish-Louisiana

A hypothetical stone line can be seen in "Animation on
Dynamic Denudation/Biomantle Evolution" at;

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jdomier/www/temp/biomantle.swf

and discussed in:

Johnson, D. L., 1989, Subsurface Stone Lines, Stone Zones,
Artifact-Manuport Layers, and Biomantles Produced by
Bioturbation via Pocket Gophers (Thomomys Bottae).
American Antiquity. vol. 54, no. 2, pp. 370-389

http://www.jstor.org/pss/281712  


and Johnson, D. L., 1990, Biomantle Evolution and the
Redistribution of Earth Materials and Artifacts. Soil
Science. vol. 149, no. 2, pp. 84-102.

http://journals.lww.com/soilsci/Abstract/1990/02000/Biomantle_Evolution_and_the_Redistribution_of.4.aspx

Meteorites will behave very much like the artifacts discussed
in the above paper.

Yours,

Paul H.
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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite deaths

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi Paul - 

Has anyone ever thought of going to those fall sites in China and hunting them? 
Or doing archeology in the case of the larger falls?

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas


  
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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Deaths? Interesting old article-read

[lebofsky]

Hi Sterling:

The events quoted by you from John Lewis' book are open to interpretation.
Similar interpretations give us:

Ezekiel saw a flying saucer

And, for those who like interpretations of the Bible and other writings:

Joshua made the Earth stand still: This was due to the fact that Venus was
a comet that was spun off(?) from Jupiter (do not remember if this was the
source of the Great Red Spot) and flew by the Earth twice before becoming
a new planet. My memory is a little hazy on this, but I think this is also
the source of our oil. [I. Velikovsky] I think that it has been claimed
that this was confirmed when we found out that Venus was hot, having been
predicted by Velikovsky.

Larry

PS Sterling: Are you going to make me go back a reread the book to give
you more specific references?

> Hi, Matt, List,
>
> On September 14, 1511, in Cremona in Lombardy,
> Italy, a monk, several birds, and a sheep were killed
> by meteorites.
>
> Sometime between 1647 and 1654, two sailors on a
> ship en route from Japan to Sicily, while in the Indian
> Ocean, were killed by meteorites.
>
> Sometime between 1633 and 1664, a monk in Milan
> was killed by a meteorite which severed his femoral
> artery, causing him to bleed to death.
>
> Chinese records of lethal impact events include the
> death of 10 victims from a meteorite fall in 616 AD, an
> "iron rain" in the O-chia district in the 14th century
> that killed people and animals, several soldiers injured
> by the fall of a "large star" in Ho-t'ao in 1369, and many
> others. The most startling is a report of an event in early
> 1490 in Ch'ing-yang, Shansi, in which many people
> were killed when stones "fell like rain." Of the three
> known surviving reports of this event, one says that
> "over 10,000 people" were killed, and one says that
> "several tens of thousands" were killed.
>
> There is a discussion of these and many more such
> incidents in John S. Lewis, "Rain of Iron and Ice," 1996.
>
> One could collect pages and pages of early accounts of
> meteorite falls and pages more of events that could well
> be meteoritic although those that wrote the accounts
> did not know of the idea that stones could fall from the
> sky. You could fill a book... and people have.
>
> A catalogue of meteorites is not a book of reported falls;
> it is a book of collected and curated falls. The oldest
> curated stone is NOGATA, which fell May 19, 861 AD.
> It hit a shrine and has been kept there ever since. The
> meteorite that hit a house in NARA (then the capital
> city of Japan) in 764 AD doesn't count because nobody
> has it safely curated.
>
>> ...can they be substantiated?
>
> No more or less than the rest of history. They tell me
> Julius Caesar was assassinated. That's the story. Most
> agree that it happened. No one wrote to deny it. It's the
> story I always heard, so I believe it, like I do all the rest
> of history. But I wasn't there, I haven't checked the DNA
> on the dagger, I don't know where he was buried, I haven't
> read the autopsy report. I'm more than a carpet fiber away
> from proving the case...
>
> Three Chinese historical chronicles recount the huge
> meteorite fall and thousands of deaths in Ch'ing-yang,
> Shansi, in late February or early March of 1490. It's as
> much history as Caesar's assassination is, no more, no
> less. It's as "substantiated" as any history. There were
> no Ming Dynasty tabloid news stories. History-writing
> was politically sensitive and historians were occasionally
> executed for falsity, particularly about "heavenly" events.
>
>
> Sterling K. Webb
> ---
> - Original Message -
> From: 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 3:18 PM
> Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Deaths? Interesting old article-read
>
>
>>A friend sent this link to me in regard to the Bear Creek meteorite.
>> <http://www.coloradohistoricnewspapers.org/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=Uk1ELzE4NjYvMDUvMTQjQXIwMDIwMA==&Mode=Gif&Locale=english-skin-custom>
>>
>> Near the end of the text it details the deaths of 3 monks and 2
>> Swedish sailors by meteorite impact!
>> Has anyone heard of this?  The passage reads:
>>
>>  "A few instances are on record of buildings being struck and set on
>> fire and persons struck dead by the fall of aerolites.  These Three
>> monks were killed, one on the 4th September 1611, at Crema (?),
>> another at Milan, in 1650, and a third in the same place in 1660.  In
>&g

Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Deaths? Interesting old article-read

[Sterling K. Webb]

Hi, Matt, List,

On September 14, 1511, in Cremona in Lombardy,
Italy, a monk, several birds, and a sheep were killed
by meteorites.

Sometime between 1647 and 1654, two sailors on a
ship en route from Japan to Sicily, while in the Indian
Ocean, were killed by meteorites.

Sometime between 1633 and 1664, a monk in Milan
was killed by a meteorite which severed his femoral
artery, causing him to bleed to death.

Chinese records of lethal impact events include the
death of 10 victims from a meteorite fall in 616 AD, an
"iron rain" in the O-chia district in the 14th century
that killed people and animals, several soldiers injured
by the fall of a "large star" in Ho-t'ao in 1369, and many
others. The most startling is a report of an event in early
1490 in Ch'ing-yang, Shansi, in which many people
were killed when stones "fell like rain." Of the three
known surviving reports of this event, one says that
"over 10,000 people" were killed, and one says that
"several tens of thousands" were killed.

There is a discussion of these and many more such
incidents in John S. Lewis, "Rain of Iron and Ice," 1996.

One could collect pages and pages of early accounts of
meteorite falls and pages more of events that could well
be meteoritic although those that wrote the accounts
did not know of the idea that stones could fall from the
sky. You could fill a book... and people have.

A catalogue of meteorites is not a book of reported falls;
it is a book of collected and curated falls. The oldest
curated stone is NOGATA, which fell May 19, 861 AD.
It hit a shrine and has been kept there ever since. The
meteorite that hit a house in NARA (then the capital
city of Japan) in 764 AD doesn't count because nobody
has it safely curated.


...can they be substantiated?


No more or less than the rest of history. They tell me
Julius Caesar was assassinated. That's the story. Most
agree that it happened. No one wrote to deny it. It's the
story I always heard, so I believe it, like I do all the rest
of history. But I wasn't there, I haven't checked the DNA
on the dagger, I don't know where he was buried, I haven't
read the autopsy report. I'm more than a carpet fiber away
from proving the case...

Three Chinese historical chronicles recount the huge
meteorite fall and thousands of deaths in Ch'ing-yang,
Shansi, in late February or early March of 1490. It's as
much history as Caesar's assassination is, no more, no
less. It's as "substantiated" as any history. There were
no Ming Dynasty tabloid news stories. History-writing
was politically sensitive and historians were occasionally
executed for falsity, particularly about "heavenly" events.


Sterling K. Webb
-----------
- Original Message - 
From: 

To: 
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 3:18 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Deaths? Interesting old article-read



A friend sent this link to me in regard to the Bear Creek meteorite.
<http://www.coloradohistoricnewspapers.org/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=Uk1ELzE4NjYvMDUvMTQjQXIwMDIwMA==&Mode=Gif&Locale=english-skin-custom>

Near the end of the text it details the deaths of 3 monks and 2 
Swedish sailors by meteorite impact!

Has anyone heard of this?  The passage reads:

 "A few instances are on record of buildings being struck and set on 
fire and persons struck dead by the fall of aerolites.  These Three 
monks were killed, one on the 4th September 1611, at Crema (?), 
another at Milan, in 1650, and a third in the same place in 1660.  In 
1674 two Swedish sailors on board ship were killed by the fall of 
one."


Having never heard of this I searched the Catalog of Meteorites and 
came up blank.  Has anyone heard of these falls and can they be 
substantiated?


Matt Morgan
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[meteorite-list] Meteorite Deaths? Interesting old article-read

[mail]

A friend sent this link to me in regard to the Bear Creek meteorite.


Near the end of the text it details the deaths of 3 monks and 2  
Swedish sailors by meteorite impact!

Has anyone heard of this?  The passage reads:

 "A few instances are on record of buildings being struck and set on  
fire and persons struck dead by the fall of aerolites.  These Three  
monks were killed, one on the 4th September 1611, at Crema (?),  
another at Milan, in 1650, and a third in the same place in 1660.  In  
1674 two Swedish sailors on board ship were killed by the fall of one."


Having never heard of this I searched the Catalog of Meteorites and  
came up blank.  Has anyone heard of these falls and can they be  
substantiated?


Matt Morgan
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