RE: [meteorite-list] NWA's, Dealers, Science, NomCom
This is exactly why I suggested ages ago that we adopt a standardized
meteorite Record card, then any information follows the piece around.
I do feel the IMCA should step in here, authenticity is paramount in our
field, and confidence is dripping away FAST!
Best,
Mark Ford
-Original Message-
From: John Birdsell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 24 November 2004 22:13
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA's, Dealers, Science, NomCom
Hi Doug and thanks for the interesting idea. I suppose that could work
if every dealer kept perfect records of every piece, slice, part slice,
and part, part slice that they ever bought or sold. The question then
would be, who would be the Meteorite Auditors to track down the few
offending dealers that may decide to fake a meteorite ID number, say
NWA 123,9,25,3,2 and track it through all the hands that is has passed
and sub-divisions that it has been cut into to verify that it is
really NWA 123,9,25,3,2? What happens if someone along the chain of
custody accidentally transposed the 3 and the 2 in the ID number, and
this got passed down the line? Some end recipient could then be accused
by the Meteorite Auditors of faking the piece after an audit exposed
the problem. Who is going to spend their time trying to resolve this
inevitable issues? I can just see our friends on the Meteorite-List
bickering over whether they have proper claim to NWA 123,9,25, 3,2 or
NWA 123,9,25,2,3!
Cheers
-John
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello John, Larry, Mike, Michael, List,
I want to respond to John's point of view on Mike's dramatic suggestion
that we acquire NWA's only from the dealer that classified it.
Mike - good post. My only wincing is that the dealer doesn't
classify it. A Met Soc approved researcher does mi cuate. I know you
know that but it won't hurt to remind you, I think, with my respects, as
always to you for a bang-up job. I am in agreement with the spirit of
your post and with that of John's with has me thinking you are both way
too right, extreme and impractical. What you have done IMHO is make a
perfect combined argument to get all the dealers off their alleged lazy
and greedy duffs to do the right thing.
John - Your post was good as usual, but more jaded than I am accustomed
to coming from you. This Trust argument alternative holds no water
personally since folks like me and I assume like Larry are not
interested in doing credit and background checks on dealers. And
without folks like me and I assume like Larry all you dealers will be
soon stuck in a pyramid scheme with each other on Meteorite pricing
which everyone's free-for-all neglect of scientific protocol has created
and sales have happily fomented.
So Listen, please and stop blaming the nomads gangs (wow that was a
laugher) or Habibi or Hupe or whoever and distancing yourselves - this
is a collective problem, period.
John, other than the trust monopoly exclusive club smelling thing you
suggest, I think you have not added your usual eye-opening value to
Mike's post. The answer [I think] here is to add the stone and fragment
numbers to conserve the classification process. Like NWA 6000, 2, 4
{...}. And keep a copy of the original classification card. In this
hypothetical exaple case, the NWA 6000 stone #2 slice 4. I stole the
idea from Dr. Grossman and NASA curators. It works. Then if you cut
the slice in half and give your partner the second half, she has NWA
6000,2,4,2. Don't make this confusing. sheesh, it is just adding a
number and only when necessary to your little piece of heaven, not
cataloging the entire stone.
Larry, let me give you the reason I think no one has done this. It
isn't some far flung idea - there is a great scientific precedent now
and for years. My opinion is that meteorite dealers just don't want
to deal with the paperwork. What a PATHETIC excuse of theirs. They
know enough to know who they bought the piece from and how much they
sold it to you for. And the tax authority probably requires it anyway,
too, but let's let the tax authority police them on that. The other
half is that they don't want you to know where they got it from.
Another pathetic excuse to sacrifice the science you buy for their
blindly greedy benefits.
The elementary school library has the Dewey Decimal system, what a
great model, and first graders can handle it, but not us. Ho Hum. I
bet a German cat could handle it. It is the same no-brainer thing.
So no one is asking from John for his new esquisite Sahara iron these
numbers, and he won't send them to you (or will he:)). So let's not
just blame the dealers, but take our ownership as well. No more I
don't know what to do, it's a meteorite jungle out there. Just a
courteous question to the dealer. Can you tell me the fragment number
I am buying? If they squeal on that one you know you are dealing with
a pig. If they are honest you're not buying a pig in a poke
RE: [meteorite-list] NWA's, Dealers, Science, NomCom
Well, IMCA has made a call for a design for such a card lately, and I
even submitted one to them. No answer, and nothing else on this matter
:-(
It seems to me that IMCA spends a lot of energy on the structuring of
the management lately, and less on other things. And their communication
towards the members is something they have to improve. One could have
the impression now that IMCA acts like an elite circle and not like a
representation of collectors. For example: Since I am member of IMCA, I
haven't received a single mail to members about what is going on inside
of IMCA. I have been contacted by individuals within IMCA, yes, on
different matters I proposed and offered, but these were personal
contacts. Would I have remained a silent member, I would know nothing
about what IMCA is doing right now.
Yes, this is some critizism, but I think it is needed.
_
Best regards,
Bernhard Rendelius Rems
CEO RPGDot Network
This outgoing mail has been virus-checked.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of mark
ford
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 12:14 PM
To: Meteorite List
Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] NWA's, Dealers, Science, NomCom
This is exactly why I suggested ages ago that we adopt a standardized
meteorite Record card, then any information follows the piece around.
I do feel the IMCA should step in here, authenticity is paramount in our
field, and confidence is dripping away FAST!
Best,
Mark Ford
-Original Message-
From: John Birdsell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 24 November 2004 22:13
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA's, Dealers, Science, NomCom
Hi Doug and thanks for the interesting idea. I suppose that could work
if every dealer kept perfect records of every piece, slice, part slice,
and part, part slice that they ever bought or sold. The question then
would be, who would be the Meteorite Auditors to track down the few
offending dealers that may decide to fake a meteorite ID number, say
NWA 123,9,25,3,2 and track it through all the hands that is has passed
and sub-divisions that it has been cut into to verify that it is
really NWA 123,9,25,3,2? What happens if someone along the chain of
custody accidentally transposed the 3 and the 2 in the ID number, and
this got passed down the line? Some end recipient could then be accused
by the Meteorite Auditors of faking the piece after an audit exposed
the problem. Who is going to spend their time trying to resolve this
inevitable issues? I can just see our friends on the Meteorite-List
bickering over whether they have proper claim to NWA 123,9,25, 3,2 or
NWA 123,9,25,2,3!
Cheers
-John
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello John, Larry, Mike, Michael, List,
I want to respond to John's point of view on Mike's dramatic suggestion
that we acquire NWA's only from the dealer that classified it.
Mike - good post. My only wincing is that the dealer doesn't
classify it. A Met Soc approved researcher does mi cuate. I know you
know that but it won't hurt to remind you, I think, with my respects, as
always to you for a bang-up job. I am in agreement with the spirit of
your post and with that of John's with has me thinking you are both way
too right, extreme and impractical. What you have done IMHO is make a
perfect combined argument to get all the dealers off their alleged lazy
and greedy duffs to do the right thing.
John - Your post was good as usual, but more jaded than I am accustomed
to coming from you. This Trust argument alternative holds no water
personally since folks like me and I assume like Larry are not
interested in doing credit and background checks on dealers. And
without folks like me and I assume like Larry all you dealers will be
soon stuck in a pyramid scheme with each other on Meteorite pricing
which everyone's free-for-all neglect of scientific protocol has created
and sales have happily fomented.
So Listen, please and stop blaming the nomads gangs (wow that was a
laugher) or Habibi or Hupe or whoever and distancing yourselves - this
is a collective problem, period.
John, other than the trust monopoly exclusive club smelling thing you
suggest, I think you have not added your usual eye-opening value to
Mike's post. The answer [I think] here is to add the stone and fragment
numbers to conserve the classification process. Like NWA 6000, 2, 4
{...}. And keep a copy of the original classification card. In this
hypothetical exaple case, the NWA 6000 stone #2 slice 4. I stole the
idea from Dr. Grossman and NASA curators. It works. Then if you cut
the slice in half and give your partner the second half, she has NWA
6000,2,4,2. Don't make this confusing. sheesh, it is just adding a
number and only when necessary to your little piece of heaven, not
cataloging the entire stone.
Larry, let me give you the reason I think no one has done this. It
isn't some far flung idea - there is a great
RE: [meteorite-list] NWA's, Dealers, Science, NomCom
Bernhard,
I really don't want to criticize the IMCA, but I am Sorry to say I agree
with your statement, just when the biggest turmoil in years has kicked
up, about authenticity, (which incidentally is exactly what they where
started up for in the first place!!), - they seem to have gone an
'unearthly quiet'!
Best,
Mark
-Original Message-
From: Bernhard Rendelius Rems [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 25 November 2004 11:28
To: mark ford
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] NWA's, Dealers, Science, NomCom
Well, IMCA has made a call for a design for such a card lately, and I
even submitted one to them. No answer, and nothing else on this matter
:-(
It seems to me that IMCA spends a lot of energy on the structuring of
the management lately, and less on other things. And their communication
towards the members is something they have to improve. One could have
the impression now that IMCA acts like an elite circle and not like a
representation of collectors. For example: Since I am member of IMCA, I
haven't received a single mail to members about what is going on inside
of IMCA. I have been contacted by individuals within IMCA, yes, on
different matters I proposed and offered, but these were personal
contacts. Would I have remained a silent member, I would know nothing
about what IMCA is doing right now.
Yes, this is some critizism, but I think it is needed.
_
Best regards,
Bernhard Rendelius Rems
CEO RPGDot Network
This outgoing mail has been virus-checked.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of mark
ford
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 12:14 PM
To: Meteorite List
Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] NWA's, Dealers, Science, NomCom
This is exactly why I suggested ages ago that we adopt a standardized
meteorite Record card, then any information follows the piece around.
I do feel the IMCA should step in here, authenticity is paramount in our
field, and confidence is dripping away FAST!
Best,
Mark Ford
-Original Message-
From: John Birdsell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 24 November 2004 22:13
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA's, Dealers, Science, NomCom
Hi Doug and thanks for the interesting idea. I suppose that could work
if every dealer kept perfect records of every piece, slice, part slice,
and part, part slice that they ever bought or sold. The question then
would be, who would be the Meteorite Auditors to track down the few
offending dealers that may decide to fake a meteorite ID number, say
NWA 123,9,25,3,2 and track it through all the hands that is has passed
and sub-divisions that it has been cut into to verify that it is
really NWA 123,9,25,3,2? What happens if someone along the chain of
custody accidentally transposed the 3 and the 2 in the ID number, and
this got passed down the line? Some end recipient could then be accused
by the Meteorite Auditors of faking the piece after an audit exposed
the problem. Who is going to spend their time trying to resolve this
inevitable issues? I can just see our friends on the Meteorite-List
bickering over whether they have proper claim to NWA 123,9,25, 3,2 or
NWA 123,9,25,2,3!
Cheers
-John
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello John, Larry, Mike, Michael, List,
I want to respond to John's point of view on Mike's dramatic suggestion
that we acquire NWA's only from the dealer that classified it.
Mike - good post. My only wincing is that the dealer doesn't
classify it. A Met Soc approved researcher does mi cuate. I know you
know that but it won't hurt to remind you, I think, with my respects, as
always to you for a bang-up job. I am in agreement with the spirit of
your post and with that of John's with has me thinking you are both way
too right, extreme and impractical. What you have done IMHO is make a
perfect combined argument to get all the dealers off their alleged lazy
and greedy duffs to do the right thing.
John - Your post was good as usual, but more jaded than I am accustomed
to coming from you. This Trust argument alternative holds no water
personally since folks like me and I assume like Larry are not
interested in doing credit and background checks on dealers. And
without folks like me and I assume like Larry all you dealers will be
soon stuck in a pyramid scheme with each other on Meteorite pricing
which everyone's free-for-all neglect of scientific protocol has created
and sales have happily fomented.
So Listen, please and stop blaming the nomads gangs (wow that was a
laugher) or Habibi or Hupe or whoever and distancing yourselves - this
is a collective problem, period.
John, other than the trust monopoly exclusive club smelling thing you
suggest, I think you have not added your usual eye-opening value to
Mike's post. The answer [I think] here is to add the stone and fragment
numbers to conserve the classification process. Like NWA 6000, 2, 4
{...}. And keep
RE: [meteorite-list] NWA's, Dealers, Science, NomCom
Just so you all understand, here's what JSC does (I think). It doesn't translate well into a system where more than one person owns the meteorite, but perhaps that doesn't matter. They label their original specimen name,0. I suppose if they had a case where there was more than one fragment in the original mass (not usually true), they might number each fragment with a different number. Every time they divide a sample, the main remaining piece retains its number and the new sample gets the next available sequence number. A database records the original mass of each sample, its current mass, the nature of the sample (slab, end piece, thin section, potted butt, etc.) and the name of the parent sample from which it was taken. So you might have ALH 05002,20 which is a thin section that the database tells you was taken from parent ALH 05002,3 which was a 20 g slice taken from the main mass ALH 05002,0 which weighed 221 g. When a researcher gets a sample, he no longer modifies these numbers even if he divides specimens because he has no access to the JSC database. How could this translate to commercial meteorites? I think the suggestion that each person in the chain append a new subsample number separated by a comma is impractical. For big meteorites, this could get out of hand real quick, producing a long chain of untraceable numbers. All I think that is needed is for the original owner to do what JSC does in some form. I would suggest that they not concern themselves with maintaining a database of all cuts and divisions, but instead just number the specimens once and leave it at that. If somebody buys a piece of NWA 5423,11 then he can trace this back to an original specimen. You see, the comma denotes a specimen number. These numbers would correspond exactly to the number of pieces reported to the NomCom. Everything with only one piece would be ,1. Now if somebody wants to call a new meteorite he buys in Morocco NWA 5434, which is not allowed under our rules, he would have to go the extra step of actually faking a specimen number. The other nice thing about this scheme is that if somebody discovers that NWA 5434,11 is a primitive achondrite not really paired with the rest of NWA 5434, an H6 chondrite, then everybody who bought it will know if he has it. Note, that when one is selling a meteorite, one should be careful how the specimen numbers are used. You are selling NWA 5434. However, this 15 g piece I have up for auction is a slice of NWA 5434,4. The name of the meteorite has no comma. The name of a particular specimen does. reactions? Jeff At 06:14 AM 11/25/2004, mark ford wrote: This is exactly why I suggested ages ago that we adopt a standardized meteorite Record card, then any information follows the piece around. I do feel the IMCA should step in here, authenticity is paramount in our field, and confidence is dripping away FAST! Best, Mark Ford -Original Message- From: John Birdsell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 24 November 2004 22:13 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA's, Dealers, Science, NomCom Hi Doug and thanks for the interesting idea. I suppose that could work if every dealer kept perfect records of every piece, slice, part slice, and part, part slice that they ever bought or sold. The question then would be, who would be the Meteorite Auditors to track down the few offending dealers that may decide to fake a meteorite ID number, say NWA 123,9,25,3,2 and track it through all the hands that is has passed and sub-divisions that it has been cut into to verify that it is really NWA 123,9,25,3,2? What happens if someone along the chain of custody accidentally transposed the 3 and the 2 in the ID number, and this got passed down the line? Some end recipient could then be accused by the Meteorite Auditors of faking the piece after an audit exposed the problem. Who is going to spend their time trying to resolve this inevitable issues? I can just see our friends on the Meteorite-List bickering over whether they have proper claim to NWA 123,9,25, 3,2 or NWA 123,9,25,2,3! Cheers -John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello John, Larry, Mike, Michael, List, I want to respond to John's point of view on Mike's dramatic suggestion that we acquire NWA's only from the dealer that classified it. Mike - good post. My only wincing is that the dealer doesn't classify it. A Met Soc approved researcher does mi cuate. I know you know that but it won't hurt to remind you, I think, with my respects, as always to you for a bang-up job. I am in agreement with the spirit of your post and with that of John's with has me thinking you are both way too right, extreme and impractical. What you have done IMHO is make a perfect combined argument to get all the dealers off their alleged lazy and greedy duffs to do the right thing. John - Your post was good as usual, but more jaded than I am accustomed to coming
RE: [meteorite-list] NWA's, Dealers, Science, NomCom
All that's needed is a simple card which documents, the origins of the specimen and the previous owners, maybe also anything that is done to the rock, eg, classifications analysis cleaning etc (maybe even these cards would become collectable themselves one day?) then at least you know it's pedigree, it's a start. Should the specimen be cut then the card is then photocopied and the new specimen weight is added as a new line on the card along with any new details, that way all the original info of the parent rock is preserved. Think about it, you could pick up a specimen and tell where it came from, and gain a degree of confidence. Now that might scare some people but its called 'authenticity' and we want it! A slice with a full provenance could be worth a lot more than a lunar slice stuffed in a plastic bag with no info - that's for sure, which would you rather buy? Of course you would never be able to stop people faking the cards, but at least that's definite fraud and would come under the law, where as the sorry sate of affairs that exists at the moment even [we] can't even tell whats going on let alone knowing what we are buying! There's been a lot of argument and heated discussion on all this, but I'm sure it's not personal, and I really think its actually very good to get the truth out in the open, it's the only way forward. Best Mark Ford -Original Message- From: Jeff Grossman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 November 2004 15:15 To: Meteorite List Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] NWA's, Dealers, Science, NomCom Just so you all understand, here's what JSC does (I think). It doesn't translate well into a system where more than one person owns the meteorite, but perhaps that doesn't matter. They label their original specimen name,0. I suppose if they had a case where there was more than one fragment in the original mass (not usually true), they might number each fragment with a different number. Every time they divide a sample, the main remaining piece retains its number and the new sample gets the next available sequence number. A database records the original mass of each sample, its current mass, the nature of the sample (slab, end piece, thin section, potted butt, etc.) and the name of the parent sample from which it was taken. So you might have ALH 05002,20 which is a thin section that the database tells you was taken from parent ALH 05002,3 which was a 20 g slice taken from the main mass ALH 05002,0 which weighed 221 g. When a researcher gets a sample, he no longer modifies these numbers even if he divides specimens because he has no access to the JSC database. How could this translate to commercial meteorites? I think the suggestion that each person in the chain append a new subsample number separated by a comma is impractical. For big meteorites, this could get out of hand real quick, producing a long chain of untraceable numbers. All I think that is needed is for the original owner to do what JSC does in some form. I would suggest that they not concern themselves with maintaining a database of all cuts and divisions, but instead just number the specimens once and leave it at that. If somebody buys a piece of NWA 5423,11 then he can trace this back to an original specimen. You see, the comma denotes a specimen number. These numbers would correspond exactly to the number of pieces reported to the NomCom. Everything with only one piece would be ,1. Now if somebody wants to call a new meteorite he buys in Morocco NWA 5434, which is not allowed under our rules, he would have to go the extra step of actually faking a specimen number. The other nice thing about this scheme is that if somebody discovers that NWA 5434,11 is a primitive achondrite not really paired with the rest of NWA 5434, an H6 chondrite, then everybody who bought it will know if he has it. Note, that when one is selling a meteorite, one should be careful how the specimen numbers are used. You are selling NWA 5434. However, this 15 g piece I have up for auction is a slice of NWA 5434,4. The name of the meteorite has no comma. The name of a particular specimen does. reactions? Jeff At 06:14 AM 11/25/2004, mark ford wrote: This is exactly why I suggested ages ago that we adopt a standardized meteorite Record card, then any information follows the piece around. I do feel the IMCA should step in here, authenticity is paramount in our field, and confidence is dripping away FAST! Best, Mark Ford -Original Message- From: John Birdsell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 24 November 2004 22:13 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA's, Dealers, Science, NomCom Hi Doug and thanks for the interesting idea. I suppose that could work if every dealer kept perfect records of every piece, slice, part slice, and part, part slice that they ever bought or sold. The question then would be, who would
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA's, Dealers, Science, NomCom
Dear Mark; Geeze, I think we were here before, last year, year before, year before that. I believe I offered my basic chain of custody used in most water sampling laboratories it was all poo-pooed but, it works for the judicial system, the EPA, and all state water quality systems in legal proceedings. Has a start, a present, a finish. I doubt the time has come yet but it may be sooner than we think. Happy triptophan buzz, Dave F. mark ford wrote: All that's needed is a simple card which documents, the origins of the specimen and the previous owners, maybe also anything that is done to the rock, eg, classifications analysis cleaning etc (maybe even these cards would become collectable themselves one day?) then at least you know it's pedigree, it's a start. Should the specimen be cut then the card is then photocopied and the new specimen weight is added as a new line on the card along with any new details, that way all the original info of the parent rock is preserved. Think about it, you could pick up a specimen and tell where it came from, and gain a degree of confidence. Now that might scare some people but its called 'authenticity' and we want it! A slice with a full provenance could be worth a lot more than a lunar slice stuffed in a plastic bag with no info - that's for sure, which would you rather buy? Of course you would never be able to stop people faking the cards, but at least that's definite fraud and would come under the law, where as the sorry sate of affairs that exists at the moment even [we] can't even tell whats going on let alone knowing what we are buying! There's been a lot of argument and heated discussion on all this, but I'm sure it's not personal, and I really think its actually very good to get the truth out in the open, it's the only way forward. Best Mark Ford -Original Message- From: Jeff Grossman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 November 2004 15:15 To: Meteorite List Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] NWA's, Dealers, Science, NomCom Just so you all understand, here's what JSC does (I think). It doesn't translate well into a system where more than one person owns the meteorite, but perhaps that doesn't matter. They label their original specimen name,0. I suppose if they had a case where there was more than one fragment in the original mass (not usually true), they might number each fragment with a different number. Every time they divide a sample, the main remaining piece retains its number and the new sample gets the next available sequence number. A database records the original mass of each sample, its current mass, the nature of the sample (slab, end piece, thin section, potted butt, etc.) and the name of the parent sample from which it was taken. So you might have ALH 05002,20 which is a thin section that the database tells you was taken from parent ALH 05002,3 which was a 20 g slice taken from the main mass ALH 05002,0 which weighed 221 g. When a researcher gets a sample, he no longer modifies these numbers even if he divides specimens because he has no access to the JSC database. How could this translate to commercial meteorites? I think the suggestion that each person in the chain append a new subsample number separated by a comma is impractical. For big meteorites, this could get out of hand real quick, producing a long chain of untraceable numbers. All I think that is needed is for the original owner to do what JSC does in some form. I would suggest that they not concern themselves with maintaining a database of all cuts and divisions, but instead just number the specimens once and leave it at that. If somebody buys a piece of NWA 5423,11 then he can trace this back to an original specimen. You see, the comma denotes a specimen number. These numbers would correspond exactly to the number of pieces reported to the NomCom. Everything with only one piece would be ,1. Now if somebody wants to call a new meteorite he buys in Morocco NWA 5434, which is not allowed under our rules, he would have to go the extra step of actually faking a specimen number. The other nice thing about this scheme is that if somebody discovers that NWA 5434,11 is a primitive achondrite not really paired with the rest of NWA 5434, an H6 chondrite, then everybody who bought it will know if he has it. Note, that when one is selling a meteorite, one should be careful how the specimen numbers are used. You are selling NWA 5434. However, this 15 g piece I have up for auction is a slice of NWA 5434,4. The name of the meteorite has no comma. The name of a particular specimen does. reactions? Jeff At 06:14 AM 11/25/2004, mark ford wrote: This is exactly why I suggested ages ago that we adopt a standardized meteorite Record card, then any information follows the piece around. I do feel the IMCA should step in here, authenticity is paramount in our field, and confidence is dripping away FAST! Best, Mark Ford -Original Message
RE: [meteorite-list] NWA's, Dealers, Science, NomCom
Hello Jeff, First off, I would like to thank you for all your time and effort you place into this list. Im sure Im not alone when I say that your name is one of several that prompt one to pause and fully read your posts. I wonder if you might clarify for me your example (copied below) of NWA numbering, as this is a very exciting topic. Could one assume a stone with an NWA number that has no extension, might be an example of a dealer's best guess, as it would not reflect a certified number? When a new find is made, would each stone be tested and given a certified incremental extension number? Best wishes, Mike Note, that when one is selling a meteorite, one should be careful how the specimen numbers are used. You are selling NWA 5434. However, this 15 g piece I have up for auction is a slice of NWA 5434,4. The name of the meteorite has no comma. The name of a particular specimen does. reactions? Jeff __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
RE: [meteorite-list] NWA's, Dealers, Science, NomCom
At 12:38 PM 11/25/2004, Michael Gallant wrote: Hello Jeff, First off, I would like to thank you for all your time and effort you place into this list. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that your name is one of several that prompt one to pause and fully read your posts. I wonder if you might clarify for me your example (copied below) of NWA numbering, as this is a very exciting topic. Could one assume a stone with an NWA number that has no extension, might be an example of a dealer's best guess, as it would not reflect a certified number? Although I don't condone this practice, yes. If a stone has been subject since day 1 to the application of subsample numbers then you would have to be suspicious that anybody selling pieces without them is just guessing. The problem is that there are going to be 1000's of grandfathered NWA's already out there with no subsample numbers, so how do you tell them apart?. When a new find is made, would each stone be tested and given a certified incremental extension number? Under my suggested system, the material that is known at the time of classification would get the subsample numbers. Since the NomCom does not allow new material found in dense collection areas to be added to existing numbers, there is not an issue concerning later-found material. Best wishes, Mike Note, that when one is selling a meteorite, one should be careful how the specimen numbers are used. You are selling NWA 5434. However, this 15 g piece I have up for auction is a slice of NWA 5434,4. The name of the meteorite has no comma. The name of a particular specimen does. reactions? Jeff __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman Chair, Meteorite Nomenclature Committee (Meteoritical Society) US Geological Survey 954 National Center Reston, VA 20192, USA Phone: (703) 648-6184 fax: (703) 648-6383 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA's, Dealers, Science, NomCom
Hello John, Larry, Mike, Michael, List,
I want to respond to John's point of view on Mike's dramatic suggestion that we
acquire NWA's only from the dealer that classified it.
Mike - good post. My only wincing is that the dealer doesn't classify it. A
Met Soc approved researcher does mi cuate. I know you know that but it won't
hurt to remind you, I think, with my respects, as always to you for a bang-up
job. I am in agreement with the spirit of your post and with that of John's
with has me thinking you are both way too right, extreme and impractical. What
you have done IMHO is make a perfect combined argument to get all the dealers
off their alleged lazy and greedy duffs to do the right thing.
John - Your post was good as usual, but more jaded than I am accustomed to
coming from you. This Trust argument alternative holds no water personally
since folks like me and I assume like Larry are not interested in doing credit
and background checks on dealers. And without folks like me and I assume like
Larry all you dealers will be soon stuck in a pyramid scheme with each other on
Meteorite pricing which everyone's free-for-all neglect of scientific protocol
has created and sales have happily fomented.
So Listen, please and stop blaming the nomads gangs (wow that was a laugher)
or Habibi or Hupe or whoever and distancing yourselves - this is a collective
problem, period.
John, other than the trust monopoly exclusive club smelling thing you
suggest, I think you have not added your usual eye-opening value to Mike's
post. The answer [I think] here is to add the stone and fragment numbers to
conserve the classification process. Like NWA 6000, 2, 4 {...}. And keep a
copy of the original classification card. In this hypothetical exaple case,
the NWA 6000 stone #2 slice 4. I stole the idea from Dr. Grossman and NASA
curators. It works. Then if you cut the slice in half and give your partner
the second half, she has NWA 6000,2,4,2. Don't make this confusing. sheesh,
it is just adding a number and only when necessary to your little piece of
heaven, not cataloging the entire stone.
Larry, let me give you the reason I think no one has done this. It isn't some
far flung idea - there is a great scientific precedent now and for years. My
opinion is that meteorite dealers just don't want to deal with the paperwork.
What a PATHETIC excuse of theirs. They know enough to know who they bought
the piece from and how much they sold it to you for. And the tax authority
probably requires it anyway, too, but let's let the tax authority police them
on that. The other half is that they don't want you to know where they got it
from. Another pathetic excuse to sacrifice the science you buy for their
blindly greedy benefits.
The elementary school library has the Dewey Decimal system, what a great model,
and first graders can handle it, but not us. Ho Hum. I bet a German cat could
handle it. It is the same no-brainer thing.
So no one is asking from John for his new esquisite Sahara iron these numbers,
and he won't send them to you (or will he:)). So let's not just blame the
dealers, but take our ownership as well. No more I don't know what to do,
it's a meteorite jungle out there. Just a courteous question to the dealer.
Can you tell me the fragment number I am buying? If they squeal on that one
you know you are dealing with a pig. If they are honest you're not buying a
pig in a poke.
Dealers, well now that I'm in boiling water, how is this: We are not
interested in your name or your competitors original card. It should just be
the MetSoc approved researcher's card. OK scientists, taxonomists, Jeff and
committe members. Here is your chance to shine...can you suggest a simple card
filled out by the researcher when classifying all specimens of a #?. No
dealers need apply. How handsome my collection of 50 meteoritic scraps (and
one nice witnessed Mexican fall) would then be. How enchanted I would be
looking over my real collection!!! Not that I am not now, but we need to do
better and find the way to make all benefit. Not shoot down one good idea
after another. John, Mike thanks for the platform and good ideas that had me
do this one.
Saludos, Doug
After spending the night with Comet Machholz and a spotlight Moon last night I
may be tired so I may be a little crusty today. Don't mind.
En un mensaje con fecha 11/24/2004 12:56:32 PM Mexico Standard Time, [EMAIL
PROTECTED] escribe:
Hi Larry, Mike and list. Yes, at first this sounds like good advice, however
this can lead to numerous problems as well. For instance I obtained a beautiful
large chunk of NWA 482 in a trade with you Mike, and I know that numerous other
dealers also have NWA 482 for sale. If we were only to purchase from the dealer
who had the meteorite classified then this would pretty much eliminate such
trades as all such traded
pieces would become worthless. Another
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA's, Dealers, Science, NomCom
Hi Doug and thanks for the interesting idea. I suppose that could work
if every dealer kept perfect records of every piece, slice, part slice,
and part, part slice that they ever bought or sold. The question then
would be, who would be the Meteorite Auditors to track down the few
offending dealers that may decide to fake a meteorite ID number, say
NWA 123,9,25,3,2 and track it through all the hands that is has passed
and sub-divisions that it has been cut into to verify that it is
really NWA 123,9,25,3,2? What happens if someone along the chain of
custody accidentally transposed the 3 and the 2 in the ID number, and
this got passed down the line? Some end recipient could then be accused
by the Meteorite Auditors of faking the piece after an audit exposed
the problem. Who is going to spend their time trying to resolve this
inevitable issues? I can just see our friends on the Meteorite-List
bickering over whether they have proper claim to NWA 123,9,25, 3,2 or
NWA 123,9,25,2,3!
Cheers
-John
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello John, Larry, Mike, Michael, List,
I want to respond to John's point of view on Mike's dramatic suggestion that we acquire
NWA's only from the dealer that classified it.
Mike - good post. My only wincing is that the dealer doesn't classify it. A
Met Soc approved researcher does mi cuate. I know you know that but it won't hurt to
remind you, I think, with my respects, as always to you for a bang-up job. I am in
agreement with the spirit of your post and with that of John's with has me thinking you
are both way too right, extreme and impractical. What you have done IMHO is make a
perfect combined argument to get all the dealers off their alleged lazy and greedy duffs
to do the right thing.
John - Your post was good as usual, but more jaded than I am accustomed to coming from
you. This Trust argument alternative holds no water personally since folks
like me and I assume like Larry are not interested in doing credit and background checks
on dealers. And without folks like me and I assume like Larry all you dealers will be
soon stuck in a pyramid scheme with each other on Meteorite pricing which everyone's
free-for-all neglect of scientific protocol has created and sales have happily fomented.
So Listen, please and stop blaming the nomads gangs (wow that was a laugher)
or Habibi or Hupe or whoever and distancing yourselves - this is a collective problem,
period.
John, other than the trust monopoly exclusive club smelling thing you
suggest, I think you have not added your usual eye-opening value to Mike's post. The
answer [I think] here is to add the stone and fragment numbers to conserve the
classification process. Like NWA 6000, 2, 4 {...}. And keep a copy of the original
classification card. In this hypothetical exaple case, the NWA 6000 stone #2 slice 4. I
stole the idea from Dr. Grossman and NASA curators. It works. Then if you cut the slice
in half and give your partner the second half, she has NWA 6000,2,4,2. Don't make this
confusing. sheesh, it is just adding a number and only when necessary to your little
piece of heaven, not cataloging the entire stone.
Larry, let me give you the reason I think no one has done this. It isn't some far flung
idea - there is a great scientific precedent now and for years. My opinion is that
meteorite dealers just don't want to deal with the paperwork. What a
PATHETIC excuse of theirs. They know enough to know who they bought the piece from and
how much they sold it to you for. And the tax authority probably requires it anyway,
too, but let's let the tax authority police them on that. The other half is that they
don't want you to know where they got it from. Another pathetic excuse to sacrifice the
science you buy for their blindly greedy benefits.
The elementary school library has the Dewey Decimal system, what a great model,
and first graders can handle it, but not us. Ho Hum. I bet a German cat could
handle it. It is the same no-brainer thing.
So no one is asking from John for his new esquisite Sahara iron these numbers, and he won't send them to you
(or will he:)). So let's not just blame the dealers, but take our ownership as well. No more
I don't know what to do, it's a meteorite jungle out there. Just a courteous question to the
dealer. Can you tell me the fragment number I am buying? If they squeal on that one you know
you are dealing with a pig. If they are honest you're not buying a pig in a poke.
Dealers, well now that I'm in boiling water, how is this: We are not
interested in your name or your competitors original card. It should just be the MetSoc
approved researcher's card. OK scientists, taxonomists, Jeff and committe members. Here
is your chance to shine...can you suggest a simple card filled out by the researcher when
classifying all specimens of a #?. No dealers need apply. How handsome my collection
of 50 meteoritic scraps (and one nice
