[meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
Hi Listees, I have a quick question for the group - why are some falls not referred to as "hammers" ? For example, Allende and Holbrook are rarely referred to as hammers, but there are reports that both hit rooftops and other manmade structures. Both falls are generally referred to as "historical" but rarely as hammers. Is there a reason? Is it because the historical element outweighs the hammer element in these cases? Claxton is well known as a hammer, but historically-speaking it's otherwise unremarkable. Is this simply semantics at play, or is there some kind of formula at work? Regards and clear skies, MikeG PS - Michael Blood, please email me offlist. . Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com MySpace - http://www.myspace.com/fine_meteorites_4_sale .. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
Good evening Folks, It's been a long time, but I'd like to add something: To me--as I have understood it for many years--a "Hammer" is nothing more than a meteorite that impacts a man-made objectand/or perhaps the occasional critter.Nothing more--Nothing less. Best regards to ya'll, Paul, Savannah GA PS Happy New Year to all of you! In a message dated 1/3/2009 10:17:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cyna...@charter.net writes: On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 21:50:18 -0500, you wrote: >I thought you meant to say the community of hammer collectors within the >meteorite collecting community was small -- relative to the international >meteorite collecting community itself. **New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom0026) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 16:32:06 -0800 (PST), you wrote: >Is this simply semantics at play Yes. The concern with "hammers" is a small subset of what is already a small community of collectors. The only true measure of wherther something is a hammer is the level of legitness. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cdk1gwWH-Cg __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
Darren, Michael & All, Semantics are absolutely at play -- and this is a roughly "defined" element of meteorite collecting at best -- but I'd beg to differ with them being of concern to "a small subset of what is already a small community of collectors." Hammers (I think Blood may have introduced this term to the meteorite world, though Johnny Carson ficticiously used it well prior to that in Niven and Pournelle's Lucifer's Hammer to describe a forthcoming comet strike upon the Earth...p. 78, paperback) are a huge element of the international collector base, and one need only take a casual glance at market prices to see this is true. I'm not a hammer collector by any means, but I've seen repeatedly in educational outreach work that there is a broader based appeal for such stories. They connect with virtually everyone, though amino acids in Murchison, while much more interesting to most of us here, do not. Further, our brains can't easily comprehend an entry velocity of 20 mps, but a car struck by a rock from space that was still travelling 200 - 300 mph -- well, everyone gets that. The term "hammer" has been overused virtually to the point of ridiculous (what makes them truly interesting -- the main mass hitting the only mailbox ever, or a small individual striking a piece of railing on a mile-long fence?). For the term to survive, my sense is that there should be some dilineation between a Hammer Stone and a Hammer Fall. Sylacauga is a wonderful story, but the material available to collectors didn't hit Mrs. Hodges on the hip. Associating all fallen individuals as hammers in conjunction with a single or few individuals out of 150 kg worth that actually hit something is also a bit of a stretch. Lastly, to my earlier point re: market pricing, the argument that not all of them are priced similarly is for the most part (though certainly not entirely) washed away by a look at respective TKWs. Two cents worth... All best, Dave www.fallingrocks.com -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Darren Garrison Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 7:40 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer? On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 16:32:06 -0800 (PST), you wrote: >Is this simply semantics at play Yes. The concern with "hammers" is a small subset of what is already a small community of collectors. The only true measure of wherther something is a hammer is the level of legitness. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cdk1gwWH-Cg __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
Hi Michael, There's another way to look at it too. The two falls you mentioned were massive and there were thousands of individual stones. In my opinion it's only a "hammer" if the individual stone actually hit something. For example you can't really say that the whole Allende fall was a hammer if only a couple of stones hit things. I guess it comes down to provenance too. Many of the good dealer/hunters these days get proof of where particular stones hit when chasing a fresh fall. In my opinion Thuathe was one of the best cataloged falls with MANY individual stones precisely recorded by both researchers and hunters alike. Cheers, Jeff - Original Message - From: "Michael Gilmer" To: Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer? Hi Listees, I have a quick question for the group - why are some falls not referred to as "hammers" ? For example, Allende and Holbrook are rarely referred to as hammers, but there are reports that both hit rooftops and other manmade structures. Both falls are generally referred to as "historical" but rarely as hammers. Is there a reason? Is it because the historical element outweighs the hammer element in these cases? Claxton is well known as a hammer, but historically-speaking it's otherwise unremarkable. Is this simply semantics at play, or is there some kind of formula at work? Regards and clear skies, MikeG PS - Michael Blood, please email me offlist. . Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com MySpace - http://www.myspace.com/fine_meteorites_4_sale .. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
In a message dated 1/3/2009 7:56:11 P.M. Central Standard Time, d...@fallingrocks.com writes: Sylacauga is a wonderful story, but the material available to collectors didn't hit Mrs. Hodges on the hip. Dave, In 1999 I brokered a couple of pieces of Sylacaga from the King Collection that did indeed come from the stone that hit Mrs. Hodges. It came from a core sample taken from that very stone. Somehow Dr. King talked them (the local library or museum) into taking a small core sample from it, maybe he traded them some Allende for it. I think most of what is on the market of Sylacaga came from the King piece, but check the provenance. If the slices are round, or partially round on one edge, it is probably from that core piece. Steve Arnold #1 **New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom0026) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 20:53:24 -0500, you wrote: >but I'd beg to differ with them being of >concern to "a small subset of what is already a small community of >collectors." With no solid numbers whatsoever to back me up, I'd bet that there were far more people actively collecting and concerned about tag variants on Beeny Babies at their height than have ever even HEARD of a "hammer" meteorite. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
12 inches of hickory, 5 ounces of steel. Sorry, couldn't resist. ;-) John - Original Message - From: "Darren Garrison" To: Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 6:10 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer? On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 20:53:24 -0500, you wrote: but I'd beg to differ with them being of concern to "a small subset of what is already a small community of collectors." With no solid numbers whatsoever to back me up, I'd bet that there were far more people actively collecting and concerned about tag variants on Beeny Babies at their height than have ever even HEARD of a "hammer" meteorite. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
Hi, Steve, Well, pardon my ignorance, and I stand corrected. Apparently quickly picked a bad example, as I'm familiar with slices in private circulation that aren't as you described. That said, I am familiar with some material which is exactly as you've described it, so that makes sense. Anyway, hopefully the concept came through even though the example was a poor choice. How about Mbale? All best, and Happy New Year, Dave www.fallingrocks.com -Original Message- From: meteorh...@aol.com [mailto:meteorh...@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 9:04 PM To: d...@fallingrocks.com; cyna...@charter.net; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer? In a message dated 1/3/2009 7:56:11 P.M. Central Standard Time, d...@fallingrocks.com writes: Sylacauga is a wonderful story, but the material available to collectors didn't hit Mrs. Hodges on the hip. Dave, In 1999 I brokered a couple of pieces of Sylacaga from the King Collection that did indeed come from the stone that hit Mrs. Hodges. It came from a core sample taken from that very stone. Somehow Dr. King talked them (the local library or museum) into taking a small core sample from it, maybe he traded them some Allende for it. I think most of what is on the market of Sylacaga came from the King piece, but check the provenance. If the slices are round, or partially round on one edge, it is probably from that core piece. Steve Arnold #1 **New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom0026) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
Darren, I thought you meant to say the community of hammer collectors within the meteorite collecting community was small -- relative to the international meteorite collecting community itself. Apologies for missing that...my bad. Many serious meteorite collectors look down their noses at hammer collectors, and that's where I thought you were going. Either way, an interesting thread on a seriously vaguely defined aspect of meteorite collecting... All best, Dave www.fallingrocks.com -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Darren Garrison Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 9:10 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer? On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 20:53:24 -0500, you wrote: >but I'd beg to differ with them being of concern to "a small subset of >what is already a small community of collectors." With no solid numbers whatsoever to back me up, I'd bet that there were far more people actively collecting and concerned about tag variants on Beeny Babies at their height than have ever even HEARD of a "hammer" meteorite. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
PS - Sad, but true...no such solid numbers are needed to call the below a fact. -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Darren Garrison Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 9:10 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer? On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 20:53:24 -0500, you wrote: >but I'd beg to differ with them being of concern to "a small subset of >what is already a small community of collectors." With no solid numbers whatsoever to back me up, I'd bet that there were far more people actively collecting and concerned about tag variants on Beeny Babies at their height than have ever even HEARD of a "hammer" meteorite. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 21:50:18 -0500, you wrote: >I thought you meant to say the community of hammer collectors within the >meteorite collecting community was small -- relative to the international >meteorite collecting community itself. I would say that it probably is, when defined as a "main concern" for the collectors-- you have people who collect by type, people who collect by location, people who collect only witnessed falls, and people who collect based on wherther or not it hit some human artifact. At most, what percentage of meteorite collectors have "hammers" being a main collecting criteria? 10%? I'd bet that it doesn't approach 25%. It is, then, a small percentage of what is already a tiny (compaired to world population and compaired to other areas of collecting) group of people. My point being-- a term in use by such a small number of people and known by such a small number of people woukd, I think, be more vaguely defined than something-- say-- that would reach The OED or Encyclopedia Britannica (leaving the Urban Dictionary and Wikipedia out of the equation for the moment). __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
Good points, Darren...and the list of collecting criteria could go on and on ad infinitum. Yet it would also be interesting to measure this hammer issue not in units but in dollars (or Euros or whatever currency). Like you, I have no solid statistics here (this arena really needs them badly, by the way), but, when looking at market price and/or relative price/gram (i.e. "value"), the representative percentage of both collectors in the community and specimens in collections would obviously be substantially higher than on a units basis. Whatever the statistics, it is true that a significant premium is paid by collectors for "hammers," and we could probably all (at least most) agree it would be a good thing to have a better definition of that term...at least a consistent one. -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Darren Garrison Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 10:18 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer? On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 21:50:18 -0500, you wrote: >I thought you meant to say the community of hammer collectors within >the meteorite collecting community was small -- relative to the >international meteorite collecting community itself. I would say that it probably is, when defined as a "main concern" for the collectors-- you have people who collect by type, people who collect by location, people who collect only witnessed falls, and people who collect based on wherther or not it hit some human artifact. At most, what percentage of meteorite collectors have "hammers" being a main collecting criteria? 10%? I'd bet that it doesn't approach 25%. It is, then, a small percentage of what is already a tiny (compaired to world population and compaired to other areas of collecting) group of people. My point being-- a term in use by such a small number of people and known by such a small number of people woukd, I think, be more vaguely defined than something-- say-- that would reach The OED or Encyclopedia Britannica (leaving the Urban Dictionary and Wikipedia out of the equation for the moment). __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
G'Day List This thread has been very interesting. Hammers have really not played an important part of my quest to seek knowledge, meteoritically speaking. But the discussions have been an eye opener, especially when it comes to a few mets that I had not considered. Mike, thanks for starting this. Steve, you continue to amaze me. Dave, what can I say? Thanks for all your input. I for one, have definitely benefited from it. As for my little humor on hammers, I sincerely apologize. It was in jest and not to throw anybody off the subject presently being discussed. I'm just a happy person by nature. Cheers John - Original Message - From: "Dave Gheesling" To: ; Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer? Good points, Darren...and the list of collecting criteria could go on and on ad infinitum. Yet it would also be interesting to measure this hammer issue not in units but in dollars (or Euros or whatever currency). Like you, I have no solid statistics here (this arena really needs them badly, by the way), but, when looking at market price and/or relative price/gram (i.e. "value"), the representative percentage of both collectors in the community and specimens in collections would obviously be substantially higher than on a units basis. Whatever the statistics, it is true that a significant premium is paid by collectors for "hammers," and we could probably all (at least most) agree it would be a good thing to have a better definition of that term...at least a consistent one. -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Darren Garrison Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 10:18 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer? On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 21:50:18 -0500, you wrote: I thought you meant to say the community of hammer collectors within the meteorite collecting community was small -- relative to the international meteorite collecting community itself. I would say that it probably is, when defined as a "main concern" for the collectors-- you have people who collect by type, people who collect by location, people who collect only witnessed falls, and people who collect based on wherther or not it hit some human artifact. At most, what percentage of meteorite collectors have "hammers" being a main collecting criteria? 10%? I'd bet that it doesn't approach 25%. It is, then, a small percentage of what is already a tiny (compaired to world population and compaired to other areas of collecting) group of people. My point being-- a term in use by such a small number of people and known by such a small number of people woukd, I think, be more vaguely defined than something-- say-- that would reach The OED or Encyclopedia Britannica (leaving the Urban Dictionary and Wikipedia out of the equation for the moment). __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
Now that's a hammer. Nice work Steve. Super piece - Original Message - From: To: ; ; Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer? In a message dated 1/3/2009 7:56:11 P.M. Central Standard Time, d...@fallingrocks.com writes: Sylacauga is a wonderful story, but the material available to collectors didn't hit Mrs. Hodges on the hip. Dave, In 1999 I brokered a couple of pieces of Sylacaga from the King Collection that did indeed come from the stone that hit Mrs. Hodges. It came from a core sample taken from that very stone. Somehow Dr. King talked them (the local library or museum) into taking a small core sample from it, maybe he traded them some Allende for it. I think most of what is on the market of Sylacaga came from the King piece, but check the provenance. If the slices are round, or partially round on one edge, it is probably from that core piece. Steve Arnold #1 **New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom0026) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
Steve and List, Steve, are you absolutely sure the core came from THE Hodges's stone( the one that struck her) and NOT the McKinney stone??? I have not actually seen the Hodge's stone in person, and maybe you have, so you MAY be right. But ... if I may quote a few words from "one of our illustrious members'" ( who I hope doesn't mind me using them, and that he will join in the discussion, too ) website that state: "There were two stones - the one that hit the human and one other. The one that hit the human is the centerpiece in a local museum. No one has ever had access to it. However,the second stone is in the Smithsonion and though the remainder has never been available to the public, it did have one core drilled in it. This core ended up in the collection of Dr. King. After his death his widow allowed it to be cut into about 10 whafer slices all of which all ended up as primary specimens in private collections." So have you seen THE Hodges' stone in person and saw that there actually IS a hole drilled into THAT very one Thanks, Robert Woolard --- On Sat, 1/3/09, meteorh...@aol.com wrote: > From: meteorh...@aol.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer? > To: d...@fallingrocks.com, cyna...@charter.net, > meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 8:03 PM > In a message dated 1/3/2009 7:56:11 P.M. Central Standard > Time, > d...@fallingrocks.com writes: > Sylacauga is a wonderful story, > but the material available to collectors didn't hit > Mrs. Hodges on the hip. > > Dave, > > In 1999 I brokered a couple of pieces of Sylacaga from the > King Collection > that did indeed come from the stone that hit Mrs. Hodges. > It came from a core > sample taken from that very stone. Somehow Dr. King > talked them (the local > library or museum) into taking a small core sample from > it, maybe he traded > them some Allende for it. > > I think most of what is on the market of Sylacaga came > from the King piece, > but check the provenance. If the slices are round, or > partially round on one > edge, it is probably from that core piece. > > Steve Arnold #1 > > **New year...new news. Be the first to know > what is making > headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom0026) > __ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
The problem with the 'hammers' is that some are not. For example: Pultusk, which is broadly referred to as a 'hammer,' when, without conclusive evidence, it is unknown what actual/individual stones or 'peas' struck artifacts. The same can be said about Murchison, Allende, and many others. I believe a true 'hammer' can only be a piece of the actual meteorite that struck the human/artifact and not the fall itself. The lure of hammers (to me) has been the material with irrefutable evidence and/or photographic documentation. To name a few: Strathmore, Claxton, Peekskill, and recently, 'Zunhua.' But then consider Ausson, which lacks any photos and or clear documentation - still a hammer? I think that the hammer category is great, but, like Dave said, there needs to be some clarity and consistency to what a hammer really is! Bonk! Mike Bandli -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Dave Gheesling Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 7:25 PM To: cyna...@charter.net; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer? Good points, Darren...and the list of collecting criteria could go on and on ad infinitum. Yet it would also be interesting to measure this hammer issue not in units but in dollars (or Euros or whatever currency). Like you, I have no solid statistics here (this arena really needs them badly, by the way), but, when looking at market price and/or relative price/gram (i.e. "value"), the representative percentage of both collectors in the community and specimens in collections would obviously be substantially higher than on a units basis. Whatever the statistics, it is true that a significant premium is paid by collectors for "hammers," and we could probably all (at least most) agree it would be a good thing to have a better definition of that term...at least a consistent one. -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Darren Garrison Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 10:18 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer? On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 21:50:18 -0500, you wrote: >I thought you meant to say the community of hammer collectors within >the meteorite collecting community was small -- relative to the >international meteorite collecting community itself. I would say that it probably is, when defined as a "main concern" for the collectors-- you have people who collect by type, people who collect by location, people who collect only witnessed falls, and people who collect based on wherther or not it hit some human artifact. At most, what percentage of meteorite collectors have "hammers" being a main collecting criteria? 10%? I'd bet that it doesn't approach 25%. It is, then, a small percentage of what is already a tiny (compaired to world population and compaired to other areas of collecting) group of people. My point being-- a term in use by such a small number of people and known by such a small number of people woukd, I think, be more vaguely defined than something-- say-- that would reach The OED or Encyclopedia Britannica (leaving the Urban Dictionary and Wikipedia out of the equation for the moment). __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
Hello Mike, Greetings from a foggy night in Georgia! I created a list a while back of meteorites that had struck human, animals and man-made objects (what I called HAMs - Michael Blood extended the term to "hammers"). I did it for fun and to demonstrate the relationship between falls and population density. It used to be on the IMCA website but I don't it there anymore. I included witnessed falls which I believed had a reliable and valid reference. If you want a copy of the table, I believe I still have a copy and can email it to you. As to the issue of whether or not a given stone or iron actually hit something, I believe one can differentiate between a hammer stone (or iron) vs. a hammer fall. A hammer stone would be the actual stone which hit something (e.g., Claxton) and a hammer fall meaning a least one stone of a given fall actually hitting something (e.g., Allende). As to why someone may or may not describe a fall as a "hammer," some may simply be unaware of the status of a given fall (with regard to it actually hitting something) and some may play up other characteristics which are more scientifically interesting. For example, Dave's reference to Murchison is correct. Murchison is more widely known within the meteorite community as containing a variety of amino acids, rather than some fragments hitting something. That is the reason most people purchase it (and why there is a very nice piece is my collection - thank you Michael Blood). Some simply copy verbatim what others have written, without doing their own research. Hope this helps. -Walter Branch ___ - Original Message - From: "Michael Gilmer" To: Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 7:32 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer? Hi Listees, I have a quick question for the group - why are some falls not referred to as "hammers" ? For example, Allende and Holbrook are rarely referred to as hammers, but there are reports that both hit rooftops and other manmade structures. Both falls are generally referred to as "historical" but rarely as hammers. Is there a reason? Is it because the historical element outweighs the hammer element in these cases? Claxton is well known as a hammer, but historically-speaking it's otherwise unremarkable. Is this simply semantics at play, or is there some kind of formula at work? Regards and clear skies, MikeG PS - Michael Blood, please email me offlist. . Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA) Member of the Meteoritical Society. Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network. Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com MySpace - http://www.myspace.com/fine_meteorites_4_sale .. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
Hello Robert, To answer your direct question, no I have not seen the "Hodges's stone." However, in Dr. King's Meteorite Collection Catalog he listed the source of his Sylacaga specimen as, and I quote: "Source: Alabama Mus. Nat. Hist., Douglas Jones" Now, if anyone on the list has access to the Hodges's stone to examine, my hunch is that the core would have been removed from the bottom portion, as it is displayed, and the hole was probably plugged with something and colored so as to hide the fact that a core was removed. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but as I recall there were some correspondence letters between Dr. King and the Alabama Museum of Natural History at the time leading up to the acquisition. And there was a concern that any examination would not hurt the aesthetic appearance of the stone. However, it might be easier to ask the Smithsonian if their records indicate that any of their Sylacaga was traded to Dr. King.But with the conflict NASA (including Dr. King) had with the Smithsonian in the 1960's I seriously doubt any trades were done with the Smithsonian. As many of you know, we auctioned off the King Collection, and it would make some of you sick if you knew how cheaply that specimen sold for. I was surprised at the time, but then again, there were many great specimens in the collection being sold, and most people had to budget where they spent their money, so some things went a little lower than expected at that time. Since then, the value has appreciated to more reasonable levels. I hope this answers your question Robert? Steve Arnold #1 In a message dated 1/3/2009 10:11:11 P.M. Central Standard Time, meteoritefin...@yahoo.com writes: Steve and List, Steve, are you absolutely sure the core came from THE Hodges's stone( the one that struck her) and NOT the McKinney stone??? I have not actually seen the Hodge's stone in person, and maybe you have, so you MAY be right. But ... if I may quote a few words from "one of our illustrious members'" ( who I hope doesn't mind me using them, and that he will join in the discussion, too ) website that state: "There were two stones - the one that hit the human and one other. The one that hit the human is the centerpiece in a local museum. No one has ever had access to it. However,the second stone is in the Smithsonion and though the remainder has never been available to the public, it did have one core drilled in it. This core ended up in the collection of Dr. King. After his death his widow allowed it to be cut into about 10 whafer slices all of which all ended up as primary specimens in private collections." So have you seen THE Hodges' stone in person and saw that there actually IS a hole drilled into THAT very one Thanks, Robert Woolard **New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom0026) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
Robert and all Hammer Heads, In retrospect, I didn't address everything in your last email. I just checked the website where that information you mentioned was listed, and I have no idea what that dealer's source was the history of his pieces. As he states there, he did not buy his pieces directly from our auction, but rather traded for them second hand. There is NO reason whatsoever to doubt that what Dr. King listed in his own private records is the truth. And I am certain that the correct information was passed on from me to all the potential bidders during the auction at that time. You should probably ask him directly what his source was for that information, but my hunch is that somewhere along the way, the exact facts were lost in translation when passed on to him. Oh, and if anyone can go to Alabama and look at the Hodges's Stone, bring a magnet. If the core was filled, and camouflaged well, a magnet should detect where a plaster or rubber filler might have been used. There is a slight chance it wasn't filled with anything, and the hole is still there. In any case, I will go on record and strongly disagree with the comments made that the King specimen came from the Smithsonian's sample. If that had been the case, Dr. King would have been listed the Smithsonian as the source and not the Alabama Museum of Natural History, which was, and still is, the repository of the Hodges's Stone. I guess for everyone that bought their Sylacaga in the past thinking it wasn't an actual hammer stone specimen: "Surprise, and congratulations!" For those of you that were thinking about buying some, but had not yet, I am sorry, as my guess is, the value of whatever is on the market has just "appreciated" in value in the last couple of hours. Happy New Year! Steve Arnold #1 Arkansas In a message dated 1/3/2009 10:11:11 P.M. Central Standard Time, meteoritefin...@yahoo.com writes: Steve and List, Steve, are you absolutely sure the core came from THE Hodges's stone( the one that struck her) and NOT the McKinney stone??? I have not actually seen the Hodge's stone in person, and maybe you have, so you MAY be right. But ... if I may quote a few words from "one of our illustrious members'" ( who I hope doesn't mind me using them, and that he will join in the discussion, too ) website that state: "There were two stones - the one that hit the human and one other. The one that hit the human is the centerpiece in a local museum. No one has ever had access to it. However,the second stone is in the Smithsonion and though the remainder has never been available to the public, it did have one core drilled in it. This core ended up in the collection of Dr. King. After his death his widow allowed it to be cut into about 10 whafer slices all of which all ended up as primary specimens in private collections." So have you seen THE Hodges' stone in person and saw that there actually IS a hole drilled into THAT very one Thanks, Robert Woolard **New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom0026) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
Steve, Robert, Dave, Walter, Mike, John et al, Several comments: (I would have responded earlier, but I was watching The Chargers KICK ASS!) 1) Any information listed on my hammer page http://www.michaelbloodmeteorites.com/Hammers.html Regarding Sylacauga is more accurately expressed by (THE REAL) Steve Arnold. I stand corrected by him on All accounts regarding this specific hammer. 2) Walter Branch's original page can be seen at: http://imca.repetti.net/metinfo/metstruck.html His reference to "HAMs" he states, is a reference to "humans, animals & man made objects" and is unrelated To my coining the term, "Hammer" in reference to any Fall that resulted in a stone striking one of the above. 3) Dave Geesling was essentially correct in stating that The "word," "HAMMER" first appeared in a book by Niven and Pournelle, entitled, LUCIFER'S HAMMER, Fawcett Crest, 1977. (Ironically, in the book, this term is a misnomer, as the Astronomer who first views the object and predicts a Huge earth impact was named Hamner, and it was a "religious" figure that stated that "Lucifer's Hammer" Was going to punish the people of the earth (much like The gobledgook vomited by the "religious" that state that AIDS is a punishment by God for the "sin" of homosexuality. I read this book 10 or more years before I got into meteorites But my use of the term "hammer" was, in fact, inspired To a degree from this book. However, I thought long and hard About the term I wanted to use before deciding to use "hammer." Since I was collecting them and determined to offer the largest Selection available of them, I felt a name was definitely called For and "hammer" it was. 4) When one coins a term, that person sets the parameters Of definition. Inevitably these parameters will change or Be refined over time. My use of the term "Hammer" was In reference to a meteorite that "nailed" something - specifically Human, animal or human made, just as was made reference to In Walter's work. Personally, I EXCLUDE roads and cultivars (varieties of hybridized fruit trees), though there are others who collect hammers that include them. 5) The entire fall is a "Hammer" fall and a specific individual that hit A specific object, animal or person is a "Hammer stone" (very, very Few irons)(the use of "hammer stone" was introduced by Adam Hupe. Though I originally debated his usage, conversations with him brought Me over to his side on this issue). Of course, one would always prefer THE hammer stone Of a fall or one of several For instance, I have 9 different Park Forest "Hammers" that include several houses, a car, a tow truck, A fire station, a baseball grandstand, fence, etc. However, in many cases The one or few hammer stones is not available (the guy in the boat Threw all that landed in his boat into the river, as they were clearly "evil"- Chiang-Khan) or the tiny Mbale stone that struck a boy I Have a photo of him holding it but no amount of research has resulted In finding ANYONE who can even say they have any idea of what Happened to that particular stone. As for Allende, Pultusk, Holbrook, etc, there is written documentation describing houses and patios, a train station being struck - I am working on a book that will cite a good deal of written records attesting to such events - the topic is far too extensive to include here. 6) I am amazed at the egocentric attitude of people who look down on others Who are "into" something that holds no interest for them. It would be like Me stating all NWA material is insignificant, regardless of rarity of type Because it is nearly all undocumented as to both date of impact and in The vast majority of cases, not reliably recorded as to specific location of find. While these statements may (or may not) have credibility, my personal Value system being applied is, relatively speaking, irrelevant. 7) Mike Gilmer asked why some falls were hardly ever referred to as "hammers" though they fit the description: Holbrook, Allende, etc. Yes, Mike, in those cases the fall, itself was so extensive and significant in Other ways that, though they included in any reasonable hammer collection, That is not their only claim to fame. 8) What percentage of meteorite collectors specifically collect hammers? This would be an excellent polling question for the list. If people want to Email me off list, I will count up the responses and report to the list. I believe the list currently has about 900 members (it is impossible to know Because a significant number of people use more than one email address To receive posts). Regardless, we could get some idea. From conversations I have had with collectors, my GUESS would be about 10 percent of all Collectors go out of their way to collect hammers (usually as ONE of their Interests in meteorites). However, a pole would be far more revealing, as Hammer collectors tend to contact me at a much higher rate than other Dealers, I am sure. When I opened my "Hammer Pag
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
Michael wrote: "Dave Gheesling was essentially correct in stating that The "word," "HAMMER" first appeared in a book by Niven and Pournelle, entitled, LUCIFER'S HAMMER, Fawcett Crest, 1977. (Ironically, in the book, this term is a misnomer, as the Astronomer who first views the object and predicts a Huge earth impact was named Hamner, and it was a "religious" figure that stated that "Lucifer's Hammer" Was going to punish the people of the earth" Actually, it was sort of an intentional, or perhaps Freudian, misnomer, ficticiously coming from Johnny Carson (well known for intentional Freudian slips). Interviewing the ficticious astronomer, Tim Hamner, Carson said, "Tim, it's your comet. Could HAMMER-Brown actually hit us?" Hamner responds, "That's HAMNER-Brown." Carson laughs, "Oh, what did I say? Hammer? It would be a hammer if it hit, wouldn't it?" Fun read, by the way, and the initial conditions are remarkably similar to a real H-B comet that would arrive two decades later... Make it a great Sunday, everybody, Dave www.fallingrocks.com -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Michael L Blood Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 4:39 AM To: Steve Arnold dealer/Qynne; meteoritefin...@yahoo.com Cc: Meteorite List Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer? Steve, Robert, Dave, Walter, Mike, John et al, Several comments: (I would have responded earlier, but I was watching The Chargers KICK ASS!) 1) Any information listed on my hammer page http://www.michaelbloodmeteorites.com/Hammers.html Regarding Sylacauga is more accurately expressed by (THE REAL) Steve Arnold. I stand corrected by him on All accounts regarding this specific hammer. 2) Walter Branch's original page can be seen at: http://imca.repetti.net/metinfo/metstruck.html His reference to "HAMs" he states, is a reference to "humans, animals & man made objects" and is unrelated To my coining the term, "Hammer" in reference to any Fall that resulted in a stone striking one of the above. 3) Dave Geesling was essentially correct in stating that The "word," "HAMMER" first appeared in a book by Niven and Pournelle, entitled, LUCIFER'S HAMMER, Fawcett Crest, 1977. (Ironically, in the book, this term is a misnomer, as the Astronomer who first views the object and predicts a Huge earth impact was named Hamner, and it was a "religious" figure that stated that "Lucifer's Hammer" Was going to punish the people of the earth (much like The gobledgook vomited by the "religious" that state that AIDS is a punishment by God for the "sin" of homosexuality. I read this book 10 or more years before I got into meteorites But my use of the term "hammer" was, in fact, inspired To a degree from this book. However, I thought long and hard About the term I wanted to use before deciding to use "hammer." Since I was collecting them and determined to offer the largest Selection available of them, I felt a name was definitely called For and "hammer" it was. 4) When one coins a term, that person sets the parameters Of definition. Inevitably these parameters will change or Be refined over time. My use of the term "Hammer" was In reference to a meteorite that "nailed" something - specifically Human, animal or human made, just as was made reference to In Walter's work. Personally, I EXCLUDE roads and cultivars (varieties of hybridized fruit trees), though there are others who collect hammers that include them. 5) The entire fall is a "Hammer" fall and a specific individual that hit A specific object, animal or person is a "Hammer stone" (very, very Few irons)(the use of "hammer stone" was introduced by Adam Hupe. Though I originally debated his usage, conversations with him brought Me over to his side on this issue). Of course, one would always prefer THE hammer stone Of a fall or one of several For instance, I have 9 different Park Forest "Hammers" that include several houses, a car, a tow truck, A fire station, a baseball grandstand, fence, etc. However, in many cases The one or few hammer stones is not available (the guy in the boat Threw all that landed in his boat into the river, as they were clearly "evil"- Chiang-Khan) or the tiny Mbale stone that struck a boy I Have a photo of him holding it but no amount of research has resulted In finding ANYONE who can even say they have any idea of what Happened to that particular stone. As for Allende, Pultusk, Holbrook, etc, there is written documentation describing houses and patios, a train station being struck - I am working on a book that will cite a good deal o
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
Dave: Johnny Carson also is responsible for one other "famous" phrase: "billions and billions" not Carl Sagan. Larry On Sun, January 4, 2009 9:29 am, Dave Gheesling wrote: > Michael wrote: "Dave Gheesling was essentially correct in stating that > The > "word," "HAMMER" first appeared in a book by Niven and Pournelle, > entitled, LUCIFER'S HAMMER, Fawcett Crest, 1977. > (Ironically, in the book, this term is a misnomer, as the Astronomer who > first views the object and predicts a Huge earth impact was named Hamner, > and it was a "religious" figure that stated that "Lucifer's Hammer" Was > going to punish the people of the earth" > > Actually, it was sort of an intentional, or perhaps Freudian, misnomer, > ficticiously coming from Johnny Carson (well known for intentional > Freudian > slips). Interviewing the ficticious astronomer, Tim Hamner, Carson said, > "Tim, it's your comet. Could HAMMER-Brown actually hit us?" Hamner > responds, "That's HAMNER-Brown." Carson laughs, "Oh, what did I say? > Hammer? It would be a hammer if it hit, wouldn't it?" Fun read, by the > way, and the initial conditions are remarkably similar to a real H-B comet > that would arrive two decades later... > > Make it a great Sunday, everybody, > > > Dave > www.fallingrocks.com > > -Original Message- > From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Michael > L > Blood > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 4:39 AM > To: Steve Arnold dealer/Qynne; meteoritefin...@yahoo.com > Cc: Meteorite List > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer? > > > Steve, Robert, Dave, Walter, Mike, John et al, > Several comments: > (I would have responded earlier, but I was watching The Chargers KICK > ASS!) > > > 1) Any information listed on my hammer page > http://www.michaelbloodmeteorites.com/Hammers.html > Regarding Sylacauga is more accurately expressed by (THE REAL) Steve > Arnold. > I stand corrected by him on All accounts regarding this specific hammer. > > > 2) Walter Branch's original page can be seen at: > http://imca.repetti.net/metinfo/metstruck.html > His reference to "HAMs" he states, is a reference to "humans, animals & > man made objects" and is unrelated To my coining the term, "Hammer" in > reference to any Fall that resulted in a stone striking one of the above. > > 3) Dave Geesling was essentially correct in stating that The "word," > "HAMMER" first appeared in a book by Niven and Pournelle, entitled, > LUCIFER'S HAMMER, Fawcett Crest, 1977. > (Ironically, in the book, this term is a misnomer, as the Astronomer who > first views the object and predicts a Huge earth impact was named Hamner, > and it was a "religious" figure that stated that "Lucifer's Hammer" Was > going to punish the people of the earth (much like The gobledgook vomited > by the "religious" that state that AIDS is a punishment by God for the > "sin" of homosexuality. > I read this book 10 or more years before I got into meteorites But my use > of the term "hammer" was, in fact, inspired To a degree from this book. > However, I thought long and hard About the term I wanted to use before > deciding to use "hammer." Since I was collecting them and determined to > offer the largest Selection available of them, I felt a name was > definitely called For and "hammer" it was. > > 4) When one coins a term, that person sets the parameters Of definition. > Inevitably these parameters will change or Be refined over time. My use of > the term "Hammer" was In reference to a meteorite that "nailed" > something - specifically Human, animal or human made, just as was made > reference to In Walter's work. Personally, I EXCLUDE roads and cultivars > (varieties of > hybridized fruit trees), though there are others who collect hammers that > include them. > > 5) The entire fall is a "Hammer" fall and a specific individual that hit > A > specific object, animal or person is a "Hammer stone" (very, very Few > irons)(the use of "hammer stone" was introduced by Adam Hupe. Though I > originally debated his usage, conversations with him brought Me over to > his side on this issue). Of course, one would always prefer THE hammer > stone Of a fall or one of several For instance, I have 9 different > Park Forest "Hammers" that > include several houses, a car, a tow truck, A fire station, a baseball >
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
Hi Dave, I am sure you are right. It has been like 30 years since I read the Book - EXCELLENT read - and that was before I was into meteorites, So, it held all kinds of fanciful stuff. I am sure major parts of the movies DEAP IMPACT and The one about the old grogers blowing up the Asteroid headed for earth were both influenced by this book. My favorite, of course, was the guy surfing the tidal wave Through downtown LA, dodging buildings as one must dodge Pier footings. Best wishes, Michael on 1/4/09 8:29 AM, Dave Gheesling at d...@fallingrocks.com wrote: > Michael wrote: "Dave Gheesling was essentially correct in stating that The > "word," "HAMMER" first appeared in a book by Niven and Pournelle, entitled, > LUCIFER'S HAMMER, Fawcett Crest, 1977. > (Ironically, in the book, this term is a misnomer, as the Astronomer who > first views the object and predicts a Huge earth impact was named Hamner, > and it was a "religious" figure that stated that "Lucifer's Hammer" > Was going to punish the people of the earth" > > Actually, it was sort of an intentional, or perhaps Freudian, misnomer, > ficticiously coming from Johnny Carson (well known for intentional Freudian > slips). Interviewing the ficticious astronomer, Tim Hamner, Carson said, > "Tim, it's your comet. Could HAMMER-Brown actually hit us?" Hamner > responds, "That's HAMNER-Brown." Carson laughs, "Oh, what did I say? > Hammer? It would be a hammer if it hit, wouldn't it?" Fun read, by the > way, and the initial conditions are remarkably similar to a real H-B comet > that would arrive two decades later... > > Make it a great Sunday, everybody, > > Dave > www.fallingrocks.com > > -Original Message- > From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Michael L > Blood > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 4:39 AM > To: Steve Arnold dealer/Qynne; meteoritefin...@yahoo.com > Cc: Meteorite List > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer? > > Steve, Robert, Dave, Walter, Mike, John et al, > Several comments: > (I would have responded earlier, but I was watching The Chargers KICK ASS!) > > 1) Any information listed on my hammer page > http://www.michaelbloodmeteorites.com/Hammers.html > Regarding Sylacauga is more accurately expressed by (THE REAL) Steve Arnold. > I stand corrected by him on All accounts regarding this specific hammer. > > 2) Walter Branch's original page can be seen at: > http://imca.repetti.net/metinfo/metstruck.html > His reference to "HAMs" he states, is a reference to "humans, animals & man > made objects" and is unrelated To my coining the term, "Hammer" in reference > to any Fall that resulted in a stone striking one of the above. > > 3) Dave Geesling was essentially correct in stating that The "word," > "HAMMER" first appeared in a book by Niven and Pournelle, entitled, > LUCIFER'S HAMMER, Fawcett Crest, 1977. > (Ironically, in the book, this term is a misnomer, as the Astronomer who > first views the object and predicts a Huge earth impact was named Hamner, > and it was a "religious" figure that stated that "Lucifer's Hammer" > Was going to punish the people of the earth (much like The gobledgook > vomited by the "religious" that state that AIDS is a punishment by God for > the "sin" of homosexuality. > I read this book 10 or more years before I got into meteorites But my use of > the term "hammer" was, in fact, inspired To a degree from this book. > However, I thought long and hard About the term I wanted to use before > deciding to use "hammer." > Since I was collecting them and determined to offer the largest Selection > available of them, I felt a name was definitely called For and "hammer" it > was. > > 4) When one coins a term, that person sets the parameters Of definition. > Inevitably these parameters will change or Be refined over time. My use of > the term "Hammer" was In reference to a meteorite that "nailed" something - > specifically Human, animal or human made, just as was made reference to In > Walter's work. Personally, I EXCLUDE roads and cultivars (varieties of > hybridized fruit trees), though there are others who collect hammers that > include them. > > 5) The entire fall is a "Hammer" fall and a specific individual that hit A > specific object, animal or person is a "Hammer stone" (very, very Few > irons)(the use of "hammer stone" was introduced by Adam Hupe.
Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer?
on 1/4/09 9:35 AM, lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu at lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu wrote: > Dave: > > Johnny Carson also is responsible for one other "famous" phrase: > > "billions and billions" > > not Carl Sagan. > > Larry Hi Larry, But Johnny was making fun of Carl Sagan when he did that. Michael > On Sun, January 4, 2009 9:29 am, Dave Gheesling wrote: >> Michael wrote: "Dave Gheesling was essentially correct in stating that >> The >> "word," "HAMMER" first appeared in a book by Niven and Pournelle, >> entitled, LUCIFER'S HAMMER, Fawcett Crest, 1977. >> (Ironically, in the book, this term is a misnomer, as the Astronomer who >> first views the object and predicts a Huge earth impact was named Hamner, >> and it was a "religious" figure that stated that "Lucifer's Hammer" Was >> going to punish the people of the earth" >> >> Actually, it was sort of an intentional, or perhaps Freudian, misnomer, >> ficticiously coming from Johnny Carson (well known for intentional >> Freudian >> slips). Interviewing the ficticious astronomer, Tim Hamner, Carson said, >> "Tim, it's your comet. Could HAMMER-Brown actually hit us?" Hamner >> responds, "That's HAMNER-Brown." Carson laughs, "Oh, what did I say? >> Hammer? It would be a hammer if it hit, wouldn't it?" Fun read, by the >> way, and the initial conditions are remarkably similar to a real H-B comet >> that would arrive two decades later... >> >> Make it a great Sunday, everybody, >> >> >> Dave >> www.fallingrocks.com >> >> -Original Message- >> From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com >> [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Michael >> L >> Blood >> Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 4:39 AM >> To: Steve Arnold dealer/Qynne; meteoritefin...@yahoo.com >> Cc: Meteorite List >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] What makes a hammer a hammer? >> >> >> Steve, Robert, Dave, Walter, Mike, John et al, >> Several comments: >> (I would have responded earlier, but I was watching The Chargers KICK >> ASS!) >> >> >> 1) Any information listed on my hammer page >> http://www.michaelbloodmeteorites.com/Hammers.html >> Regarding Sylacauga is more accurately expressed by (THE REAL) Steve >> Arnold. >> I stand corrected by him on All accounts regarding this specific hammer. >> >> >> 2) Walter Branch's original page can be seen at: >> http://imca.repetti.net/metinfo/metstruck.html >> His reference to "HAMs" he states, is a reference to "humans, animals & >> man made objects" and is unrelated To my coining the term, "Hammer" in >> reference to any Fall that resulted in a stone striking one of the above. >> >> 3) Dave Geesling was essentially correct in stating that The "word," >> "HAMMER" first appeared in a book by Niven and Pournelle, entitled, >> LUCIFER'S HAMMER, Fawcett Crest, 1977. >> (Ironically, in the book, this term is a misnomer, as the Astronomer who >> first views the object and predicts a Huge earth impact was named Hamner, >> and it was a "religious" figure that stated that "Lucifer's Hammer" Was >> going to punish the people of the earth (much like The gobledgook vomited >> by the "religious" that state that AIDS is a punishment by God for the >> "sin" of homosexuality. >> I read this book 10 or more years before I got into meteorites But my use >> of the term "hammer" was, in fact, inspired To a degree from this book. >> However, I thought long and hard About the term I wanted to use before >> deciding to use "hammer." Since I was collecting them and determined to >> offer the largest Selection available of them, I felt a name was >> definitely called For and "hammer" it was. >> >> 4) When one coins a term, that person sets the parameters Of definition. >> Inevitably these parameters will change or Be refined over time. My use of >> the term "Hammer" was In reference to a meteorite that "nailed" >> something - specifically Human, animal or human made, just as was made >> reference to In Walter's work. Personally, I EXCLUDE roads and cultivars >> (varieties of >> hybridized fruit trees), though there are others who collect hammers that >> include them. >> >> 5) The entire fall is a "Hammer" fall an
