Re: [meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites)
Piper et al., Without implying that ALL reports of sulphurous smells are necessarily unreliable, I do urge caution. Over my career of checking alleged Dutch new meteorite falls (all meteorwrongs!) there have been a number of cases where people reported to me sulphurous smells when encountering the stone. Mind you: all of these were *not* meteorites, but things ranging from flint to brick to slag. Like red glowing, the sulphorous smells are something that people apparently expect with true meteorites. So they tend to observe it, even if the object later turns out to be not a meteorite but an earthly object! Never underestimate the power of suggestion. The same goes for reports of very hot meteorites. Concerning the latter: when a fall takes place in bright sunlight, be aware that after the fall the stone will quickly get hot simply because the black fusion crust absorbs warmth from sunlight, in the same way that tarmac or a dark painted garden bench do. I 'discovered' this several years ago when placing a few fragments of Mbale in sunlight for a few minutes for a photograph. When I picked them up I almost dropped them again because of a sensation of them being hot (on second inspection, they weren't actually that hot, but they did clearly warm up in the sunlight enough for this initial sensation to occur). In more speculative moments, I have pondered a few times whether the decay of very shortlived radioisotopes in meteorites could play a role in reports of glowing and hot fresh-fallen meteorites as well. That is pure speculation that will probably not hold on closer scrutiny, however. - Marco - Dr Marco (asteroid 183294) Langbroek Dutch Meteor Society (DMS) e-mail: d...@marcolangbroek.nl http://www.dmsweb.org http://www.marcolangbroek.nl - __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites)
Hi Marco: The short lived isotopes decayed 4.5 - 4.6 or so billion years ago, and only warmed the acreeted asteroid at that time. They are but a distant memory when the meteorite falls here on earth today. As for hot rocks. I found Buzzard coulee specimens in the spring time 2009. The ones that were exposed to the sun, were nice and warm, almost hot, when we picked them up. : ) Murray Paulson On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 2:03 AM, Marco Langbroek marco.langbr...@wanadoo.nl wrote: Piper et al., ... The same goes for reports of very hot meteorites. In more speculative moments, I have pondered a few times whether the decay of very shortlived radioisotopes in meteorites could play a role in reports of glowing and hot fresh-fallen meteorites as well. That is pure speculation that will probably not hold on closer scrutiny, however. - Marco - Dr Marco (asteroid 183294) Langbroek Dutch Meteor Society (DMS) e-mail: d...@marcolangbroek.nl http://www.dmsweb.org http://www.marcolangbroek.nl - __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites)
Marco: Ditto that! Last summer I was photographing some crusted Zag in the full sun when it was 95 degrees out. I was distracted for four or five minutes, when I came back the meteorites were so hot you could barely hold them in your hand! Phil Whitmer Piper et al., Without implying that ALL reports of sulphurous smells are necessarily unreliable, I do urge caution. Over my career of checking alleged Dutch new meteorite falls (all meteorwrongs!) there have been a number of cases where people reported to me sulphurous smells when encountering the stone. Mind you: all of these were *not* meteorites, but things ranging from flint to brick to slag. Like red glowing, the sulphorous smells are something that people apparently expect with true meteorites. So they tend to observe it, even if the object later turns out to be not a meteorite but an earthly object! Never underestimate the power of suggestion. The same goes for reports of very hot meteorites. Concerning the latter: when a fall takes place in bright sunlight, be aware that after the fall the stone will quickly get hot simply because the black fusion crust absorbs warmth from sunlight, in the same way that tarmac or a dark painted garden bench do. I 'discovered' this several years ago when placing a few fragments of Mbale in sunlight for a few minutes for a photograph. When I picked them up I almost dropped them again because of a sensation of them being hot (on second inspection, they weren't actually that hot, but they did clearly warm up in the sunlight enough for this initial sensation to occur). In more speculative moments, I have pondered a few times whether the decay of very shortlived radioisotopes in meteorites could play a role in reports of glowing and hot fresh-fallen meteorites as well. That is pure speculation that will probably not hold on closer scrutiny, however. - Marco - Dr Marco (asteroid 183294) Langbroek Dutch Meteor Society (DMS) __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites)
Op 24-11-2010 16:55, Murray Paulson schreef: Hi Marco: The short lived isotopes decayed 4.5 - 4.6 or so billion years ago, and only warmed the acreeted asteroid at that time. They are but a distant memory when the meteorite falls here on earth today. Hi Murray No, you are mistaken. It is not a fossil process happening during solar system formation only. Shortlived isotopes form continuously in a meteorite up to the present day under the influence of cosmic radiation. They are being formed up to the moment the meteoroid plunges into our atmosphere. Only when the meteorite is at the earth surface and shielded from cosmic radiation, does the production of these shortlived isotopes stop. They decay in the minutes, hours, days and weeks after the fall, depending on their half lives. This is the reason why a fresh meteorite fall needs to be measured for them as soon after a fall as possible. Only during a short timne after the fall, this can be done. - Marco - Dr Marco (asteroid 183294) Langbroek Dutch Meteor Society (DMS) e-mail: d...@marcolangbroek.nl http://www.dmsweb.org http://www.marcolangbroek.nl - __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites)
Hello Mark and list, Reports of some meteorites having a sulphurous smell have been of interest to me for several years now. My thanks to Mark Grossman for the mention of the Sears article (1974) and Ursula Marvin's speculations on the subject (2007). I've not seen either reference yet and am curious about both. While reports of sulphurous smells may have subsided, they have not by any means ceased entirely. This list had a lively thread on this subject back in the fall of 2007 soon after the Carancas fall. I'll recount a few salient points of that discussion for those who are new to the list. Visitors to the Carancas crater soon after the impact reported a sulfurous odor, and the symptoms of people who reported becoming ill at Carancas (irritation of respiratory tract, nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, dizziness, headache, skin lesions) are consistent with exposure to sulfur dioxide gas and/or to the sulfurous acid (H2SO3) that forms when sulfur dioxide dissolves in water (e.g. in the moist lining of the lungs and airways). One witness reported that meteoritic dust that had been stored in a closed container after being collected near the crater gave a sensation that she likened to the stinging of a thousand little bees when the container was opened and the vapors inhaled. Other relatively recent reports include: - The Tagish Lake fall in March 2000: The crumbly, black, porous rock fragments have charred, pocked surfaces and retain the smell of sulfur. (CNN) - The Park Forest, Chicago fall in March 2003: Colby Navarro stated, Plaster blew all over me and all over the upstairs; then I found the rock, then added that it was warm to the touch and smelled like the sulfur from fireworks. It is a well-know fact that sulfur is present in many types of meteorites. Ordinary chondrites contain on average 2.1% sulfur, and carbonaceous chondrites may contain as much as 6.6%. Sulfur in meteorites is normally present entirely as troilite (FeS), but other sulfides are found in some meteorites, and carbonaceous chondrites contain free sulfur, sulfates, and possibly other sulfur compounds. (summarized from B. Mason, Meteorites, p. 160) Less well-known is the fact that troilite dissociates at the rather low temperature of 427 C (Sterling Webb found this figure somewhere during the 2007 discussion). This releases elemental sulfur that can in turn combine with atmospheric oxygen to produce sulfur dioxide. The distinctive sharp smell that a match gives off when being lit is due to the sulfur dioxide formed when sulfur in the matchhead burns. Thus it should not surprise us all that much that we continue to hear reports of freshly-fallen meteorites having a sulfurous smell. It would be a natural consequence of heating troilite in air. Also interesting are reports that sulfurous odors may emanate from cut meteorites long after the fall date. From my own experience, I can relate that Darryl Pitt showed me a slice of Hvittis (fell in Finland, 1901, EL6) at the meteorite fair in Gifhorn, Germany some years ago (1999?) and suggested that I sniff it. There was a distinctive sulfurous odor, similar to the smell that a match makes when you light it -- not especially strong, but nevertheless unmistakable. The catalog of the Macovich Meteorite Auction at the Tucson mineral show in February 2001 mentions a smell of sulfur in the description of a Hvittis specimen, possibly the same one that I sampled in Gifhorn. There would seem to be good reasons to believe that the laws of physics and chemistry, and not just superstitious expectations, are behind these nose-witness reports. Best wishes to all, Piper __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites)
Hi Piper, Interesting points. I have not seen the original Sears article myself, but Marvin mentions that Sears thought that meteorites contain too little troilite to generate the sufurous odor. No mention of other sufur compounds though. On the other hand, I know from my chemical safety and health experience that some sulfur compounds have extrememly low odor thresholds, such as the mercaptans, but those are unoxidized or reduced sulfur compounds, and I would think that any sulfur-containing vapors that were generated near the surface of the meteorite would be oxidized. So, it is an interesting question, and I am curious to learn of other people's thoughts on the subject. Thanks for the information. Mark Mark Grossman Briarcliff Manor, NY - Original Message - From: Piper R.W. Hollier pi...@xs4all.nl To: Mark Grossman mar...@westnet.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 3:03 PM Subject: sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites) Hello Mark and list, Reports of some meteorites having a sulphurous smell have been of interest to me for several years now. My thanks to Mark Grossman for the mention of the Sears article (1974) and Ursula Marvin's speculations on the subject (2007). I've not seen either reference yet and am curious about both. While reports of sulphurous smells may have subsided, they have not by any means ceased entirely. This list had a lively thread on this subject back in the fall of 2007 soon after the Carancas fall. I'll recount a few salient points of that discussion for those who are new to the list. Visitors to the Carancas crater soon after the impact reported a sulfurous odor, and the symptoms of people who reported becoming ill at Carancas (irritation of respiratory tract, nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, dizziness, headache, skin lesions) are consistent with exposure to sulfur dioxide gas and/or to the sulfurous acid (H2SO3) that forms when sulfur dioxide dissolves in water (e.g. in the moist lining of the lungs and airways). One witness reported that meteoritic dust that had been stored in a closed container after being collected near the crater gave a sensation that she likened to the stinging of a thousand little bees when the container was opened and the vapors inhaled. Other relatively recent reports include: - The Tagish Lake fall in March 2000: The crumbly, black, porous rock fragments have charred, pocked surfaces and retain the smell of sulfur. (CNN) - The Park Forest, Chicago fall in March 2003: Colby Navarro stated, Plaster blew all over me and all over the upstairs; then I found the rock, then added that it was warm to the touch and smelled like the sulfur from fireworks. It is a well-know fact that sulfur is present in many types of meteorites. Ordinary chondrites contain on average 2.1% sulfur, and carbonaceous chondrites may contain as much as 6.6%. Sulfur in meteorites is normally present entirely as troilite (FeS), but other sulfides are found in some meteorites, and carbonaceous chondrites contain free sulfur, sulfates, and possibly other sulfur compounds. (summarized from B. Mason, Meteorites, p. 160) Less well-known is the fact that troilite dissociates at the rather low temperature of 427 C (Sterling Webb found this figure somewhere during the 2007 discussion). This releases elemental sulfur that can in turn combine with atmospheric oxygen to produce sulfur dioxide. The distinctive sharp smell that a match gives off when being lit is due to the sulfur dioxide formed when sulfur in the matchhead burns. Thus it should not surprise us all that much that we continue to hear reports of freshly-fallen meteorites having a sulfurous smell. It would be a natural consequence of heating troilite in air. Also interesting are reports that sulfurous odors may emanate from cut meteorites long after the fall date. From my own experience, I can relate that Darryl Pitt showed me a slice of Hvittis (fell in Finland, 1901, EL6) at the meteorite fair in Gifhorn, Germany some years ago (1999?) and suggested that I sniff it. There was a distinctive sulfurous odor, similar to the smell that a match makes when you light it -- not especially strong, but nevertheless unmistakable. The catalog of the Macovich Meteorite Auction at the Tucson mineral show in February 2001 mentions a smell of sulfur in the description of a Hvittis specimen, possibly the same one that I sampled in Gifhorn. There would seem to be good reasons to believe that the laws of physics and chemistry, and not just superstitious expectations, are behind these nose-witness reports. Best wishes to all, Piper __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites)
Hello Piper, Mark and Listees, I suggest that a well received and valuable scientific experiment for some energetic young graduate student, or doctorial candidate, would be to undertake the study of heating a suitable meteoritic specimen to the temperature encountered in atmospheric entry and reporting the results as to ablation, encrustation, temperature changes and residual presence of human detectable odors. Does anyone know if this has as been acomplished, or attempted? Published? Count Deiro IMCA 3536 -Original Message- From: Piper R.W. Hollier pi...@xs4all.nl Sent: Nov 23, 2010 3:03 PM To: Mark Grossman mar...@westnet.com, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites) Hello Mark and list, Reports of some meteorites having a sulphurous smell have been of interest to me for several years now. My thanks to Mark Grossman for the mention of the Sears article (1974) and Ursula Marvin's speculations on the subject (2007). I've not seen either reference yet and am curious about both. While reports of sulphurous smells may have subsided, they have not by any means ceased entirely. This list had a lively thread on this subject back in the fall of 2007 soon after the Carancas fall. I'll recount a few salient points of that discussion for those who are new to the list. Visitors to the Carancas crater soon after the impact reported a sulfurous odor, and the symptoms of people who reported becoming ill at Carancas (irritation of respiratory tract, nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, dizziness, headache, skin lesions) are consistent with exposure to sulfur dioxide gas and/or to the sulfurous acid (H2SO3) that forms when sulfur dioxide dissolves in water (e.g. in the moist lining of the lungs and airways). One witness reported that meteoritic dust that had been stored in a closed container after being collected near the crater gave a sensation that she likened to the stinging of a thousand little bees when the container was opened and the vapors inhaled. Other relatively recent reports include: - The Tagish Lake fall in March 2000: The crumbly, black, porous rock fragments have charred, pocked surfaces and retain the smell of sulfur. (CNN) - The Park Forest, Chicago fall in March 2003: Colby Navarro stated, Plaster blew all over me and all over the upstairs; then I found the rock, then added that it was warm to the touch and smelled like the sulfur from fireworks. It is a well-know fact that sulfur is present in many types of meteorites. Ordinary chondrites contain on average 2.1% sulfur, and carbonaceous chondrites may contain as much as 6.6%. Sulfur in meteorites is normally present entirely as troilite (FeS), but other sulfides are found in some meteorites, and carbonaceous chondrites contain free sulfur, sulfates, and possibly other sulfur compounds. (summarized from B. Mason, Meteorites, p. 160) Less well-known is the fact that troilite dissociates at the rather low temperature of 427 C (Sterling Webb found this figure somewhere during the 2007 discussion). This releases elemental sulfur that can in turn combine with atmospheric oxygen to produce sulfur dioxide. The distinctive sharp smell that a match gives off when being lit is due to the sulfur dioxide formed when sulfur in the matchhead burns. Thus it should not surprise us all that much that we continue to hear reports of freshly-fallen meteorites having a sulfurous smell. It would be a natural consequence of heating troilite in air. Also interesting are reports that sulfurous odors may emanate from cut meteorites long after the fall date. From my own experience, I can relate that Darryl Pitt showed me a slice of Hvittis (fell in Finland, 1901, EL6) at the meteorite fair in Gifhorn, Germany some years ago (1999?) and suggested that I sniff it. There was a distinctive sulfurous odor, similar to the smell that a match makes when you light it -- not especially strong, but nevertheless unmistakable. The catalog of the Macovich Meteorite Auction at the Tucson mineral show in February 2001 mentions a smell of sulfur in the description of a Hvittis specimen, possibly the same one that I sampled in Gifhorn. There would seem to be good reasons to believe that the laws of physics and chemistry, and not just superstitious expectations, are behind these nose-witness reports. Best wishes to all, Piper __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites)
Hi Count, For a meteorite with a sulfur-like odor, the experiment would be fairly straightforward for a well-equipped lab. Take the meteorite with a sulfur-like odor, place a piece or some powder into a glass vial fitted with a rubber septum, and then take a syringe and draw out some of the air above the specimen after it has equilibrated for a while. The air is then injected into a gas chromatograph, perhaps equipped with a mass spec. This may not work on some very small molecules, like hydrogen sulfide. Would be very interesting indeed to learn if this experiment has been tried. Mark Mark Grossman Briarcliff Manor, NY - Original Message - From: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net To: Piper R.W. Hollier pi...@xs4all.nl; Mark Grossman mar...@westnet.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites) Hello Piper, Mark and Listees, I suggest that a well received and valuable scientific experiment for some energetic young graduate student, or doctorial candidate, would be to undertake the study of heating a suitable meteoritic specimen to the temperature encountered in atmospheric entry and reporting the results as to ablation, encrustation, temperature changes and residual presence of human detectable odors. Does anyone know if this has as been acomplished, or attempted? Published? Count Deiro IMCA 3536 -Original Message- From: Piper R.W. Hollier pi...@xs4all.nl Sent: Nov 23, 2010 3:03 PM To: Mark Grossman mar...@westnet.com, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites) Hello Mark and list, Reports of some meteorites having a sulphurous smell have been of interest to me for several years now. My thanks to Mark Grossman for the mention of the Sears article (1974) and Ursula Marvin's speculations on the subject (2007). I've not seen either reference yet and am curious about both. While reports of sulphurous smells may have subsided, they have not by any means ceased entirely. This list had a lively thread on this subject back in the fall of 2007 soon after the Carancas fall. I'll recount a few salient points of that discussion for those who are new to the list. Visitors to the Carancas crater soon after the impact reported a sulfurous odor, and the symptoms of people who reported becoming ill at Carancas (irritation of respiratory tract, nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, dizziness, headache, skin lesions) are consistent with exposure to sulfur dioxide gas and/or to the sulfurous acid (H2SO3) that forms when sulfur dioxide dissolves in water (e.g. in the moist lining of the lungs and airways). One witness reported that meteoritic dust that had been stored in a closed container after being collected near the crater gave a sensation that she likened to the stinging of a thousand little bees when the container was opened and the vapors inhaled. Other relatively recent reports include: - The Tagish Lake fall in March 2000: The crumbly, black, porous rock fragments have charred, pocked surfaces and retain the smell of sulfur. (CNN) - The Park Forest, Chicago fall in March 2003: Colby Navarro stated, Plaster blew all over me and all over the upstairs; then I found the rock, then added that it was warm to the touch and smelled like the sulfur from fireworks. It is a well-know fact that sulfur is present in many types of meteorites. Ordinary chondrites contain on average 2.1% sulfur, and carbonaceous chondrites may contain as much as 6.6%. Sulfur in meteorites is normally present entirely as troilite (FeS), but other sulfides are found in some meteorites, and carbonaceous chondrites contain free sulfur, sulfates, and possibly other sulfur compounds. (summarized from B. Mason, Meteorites, p. 160) Less well-known is the fact that troilite dissociates at the rather low temperature of 427 C (Sterling Webb found this figure somewhere during the 2007 discussion). This releases elemental sulfur that can in turn combine with atmospheric oxygen to produce sulfur dioxide. The distinctive sharp smell that a match gives off when being lit is due to the sulfur dioxide formed when sulfur in the matchhead burns. Thus it should not surprise us all that much that we continue to hear reports of freshly-fallen meteorites having a sulfurous smell. It would be a natural consequence of heating troilite in air. Also interesting are reports that sulfurous odors may emanate from cut meteorites long after the fall date. From my own experience, I can relate that Darryl Pitt showed me a slice of Hvittis (fell in Finland, 1901, EL6) at the meteorite fair in Gifhorn, Germany some years ago (1999?) and suggested that I sniff it. There was a distinctive sulfurous odor, similar to the smell that a match makes when you light it -- not especially strong, but nevertheless
Re: [meteorite-list] sulphurous smell of meteorites (was Temperature of meteorites)
Actually I use my nose. Cheaper and always with me . Chris Spratt Victoria, BC (Via my iPhone) __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
