Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Martin A. wrote: PS: And if you don't know any dealers yet, buy strictly IMCA. Hi Martin, Friends, I strictly disagree. IMCA membership can't proactively guarantee character as much as it would be nice to want to believe that. By the time you would start a grievance process through the IMCA, you've already lost and given up on meteorites. My advice is, if you don't know any dealers, buy from a collector who does very little dealing. That can be lots of fun too. A collector can have infinite reserviors of patience and enthusiasm. A busy dealer can be too worried about getting to bed in time before answering all of the innocent email questions, to even write his friend or old customers with important answers. -or- The money won't burn a hole in your pocket, either: so if you don't know any dealers - get to know them first and you'll find the buying experience much more fun. Make them educate you and reward them with your business. An IMCA logo to a businessman is what a degree is to a scientist: what he or she makes of it. Make everone work for your money: you did. Anything else is disrespectful to all of those honest people out there. BTW, the vast majority of the material is sourced from non-IMCA members, a fact that should be kept in mind by all. The IMCA directors are pretty good about not insulting the non-IMCA list members when it comes to discussing ethics. I think they realize the limitations of a general interest group and the policing function is not the strongest point for the IMCA. This situation is much too complicated to caracature it that way. The IMCA logo is not a Union Card. A dealer can sell one million dollars and pays $20 for his logo. A collector can sell five cents, and still pays the same, which may challenge the sense of equity for some... Best wishes and Great Health, Doug -Original Message- From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 12:51 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? I know Jay, but I can't explicitly write names here, I'm a dealer and some could misunderstand it and think, that I would pursue a certain intention. So I rather write about barbers and surgeons... In fact one could express it also less complicate with the simple, but nevertheless true words of my uncle Alex Seidel: Know your dealer. :-) Martin PS: And if you don't know any dealers yet, buy strictly IMCA. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Wendy Piatek Gesendet: Samstag, 12. April 2008 18:40 An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Martin Altmann Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Martin -- the problem they are all referring to is the questionable practices of Bob Evans. I believe he has sold 5-6 different meteorites (that we know of) --that might be imposters--those being-- Zulu Queen---he stated he procured it from UCLA---on contact they denied this. It is all in IOM and Schwade Bialystok Plymouth Claretin Andover--he won't even say where he got it. Almost all in USNM and Jim and me. He does not have the pull to do exchanges with most major institutions. Ensisheim Think of all the collectors who received Ensisheim on ebay from him and it is really most likely St. Severin. Either that or he has uncovered another stone!!! There needs to be action done against this guy. He never responded to my inquiries on where he came up with these. And yet he has the nerve to bring up other suspected scammers on ebay. I hate hypocrites. I hate scammers. My vote is to ostracize him until he comes clean. Kick him off the list. Get a website entitled Suspicious Meteorites Sold By Bob Evans AKA Maccers... . Encourage all who have bought specimens from him to take him up on his offer and ask for their money back. Since my email to the list several weeks ago which Bob never replied either publicly or privately I have had quite a few listers write with stories of his shady business practices. One lister in fact stated he has a 5K judgemnt against Bob. All these complaints need to be brought out in public and perhaps the Illinois Attorney General notiified. Too many times scam artists of which he appears to be can continue to prosper due to everyone remaining silent. I look forward to other input. I know my stance is quite intense but there is quite a bit at stake for my collection as well as this field. I think the lister who felt IMCA needs to get involved is right on as well. I look forward to their input/comments. Best, Jay - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi too, some thoughts... Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be tracked and would
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
to a webpage of a meteorite dealer or collector. They will tell them, well it's well known, that these locales rust like hell. Weren't you told about? He will show his other purchases, and he will get the answer: Sorry, that is a Mekong-magnetite and no meteorite, yah that star-chaser screwed you, it is no Moon; no tektites are something different than meteorites, they are not from space. Well yes, that's a true meteorite, but it has no fusion crust, neither is it oriented, look I show you some pictures... Do you think, Doug, he will carry on with meteorites, when he was burnt and frustrated in that way? And btw. if he doesn't know the responsible collectors and dealers, but should buy at non-IMCA-members, how can he avoid to end at a Bob Evans or a Chicago-Steve? And now look - each member who joins IMCA has to sign a code of ethics. He agrees to perform a proper business ethics, to care for the authenticity ect. This is already a inhibition threshold for those sellers, who give a on their buyers, because why they should risk some trouble, if their crap is selling also without IMCA-label? Plus those, who are aware, that they don't know much about meteorites, let's say mineral dealers, having from time to time an iron, esoteric sellers, or pendants and jewellery sellers, who might have difficulties to recognize a true meteorite, won't feel the wish, to join. Well and such sellers, obviously having sold fakes, never would be accepted by IMCA. Secondly, any new member has to be recommended by two other members, which are in a certain way obliged - or interested in, that their godchild doesn't mess things up. Thirdly: If a buyer of a stone, no matter whether he's a member or not, has any troubles with an IMCA-member, he can address at anytime to IMCA, and they will help to find a satisfying solution. IMCA is a legal person, so in extreme cases, it can (and will) sue a member, who had broken the code of ethics and refuses to acquit the damage. Fourthly: Foul apples are always quickly expelled from IMCA. I'm not a propagandist of IMCA, neither I'm horny to get a function there, but what I can tell you from my daily work: IMCA is a BLESSING for our hobby and our branch. Doug, again, and good heavens! Collectors and dealers, who are not IMCA-members, are of course also very honourable people and one can excellently buy meteorites from them. A beginner soon will grow into the meteorite scene and then he can buy of course also from non-IMCA-members, but you have to see, that at the very start - and we have to care for rookies to get a good start into our beloved field of collecting - it simply DRASTICALLY REDUCES for them the risk to be burnt, if they buy at the beginnig there, where they find an IMCA-label. Really. Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Sonntag, 13. April 2008 10:21 An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Martin A. wrote: PS: And if you don't know any dealers yet, buy strictly IMCA. Hi Martin, Friends, I strictly disagree. IMCA membership can't proactively guarantee character as much as it would be nice to want to believe that. By the time you would start a grievance process through the IMCA, you've already lost and given up on meteorites. My advice is, if you don't know any dealers, buy from a collector who does very little dealing. That can be lots of fun too. A collector can have infinite reserviors of patience and enthusiasm. A busy dealer can be too worried about getting to bed in time before answering all of the innocent email questions, to even write his friend or old customers with important answers. -or- The money won't burn a hole in your pocket, either: so if you don't know any dealers - get to know them first and you'll find the buying experience much more fun. Make them educate you and reward them with your business. An IMCA logo to a businessman is what a degree is to a scientist: what he or she makes of it. Make everone work for your money: you did. Anything else is disrespectful to all of those honest people out there. BTW, the vast majority of the material is sourced from non-IMCA members, a fact that should be kept in mind by all. The IMCA directors are pretty good about not insulting the non-IMCA list members when it comes to discussing ethics. I think they realize the limitations of a general interest group and the policing function is not the strongest point for the IMCA. This situation is much too complicated to caracature it that way. The IMCA logo is not a Union Card. A dealer can sell one million dollars and pays $20 for his logo. A collector can sell five cents, and still pays the same, which may challenge the sense of equity for some... Best wishes and Great Health, Doug -Original Message- From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
, from the side of the collectors. From side of the dealer it is a matter of his reputation. If this isn't sufficient for a collector, then he simply shouldn't buy any historic specimens, then he should collect desert meteorites, where the provenance is of less than secondary importance and the value is determined solely by the material itself. Meteorite collecting is different from stamp collecting, where you have a catalogue, where all stamps are depicted, and where you have the exact numbers, how many of each were issued. And these endless ebay-discussions are in my eyes redundant. There are dealers and collectors selling with excellent names and they worked hard for those good names, but aside from them: In general it is so silly to expect to get on the flea-market without any risk an authentic Picasso or Dürer - and that for a few bucks. As always only thoughts. Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Mark Grossman Gesendet: Samstag, 12. April 2008 06:36 An: Dark Matter; Mike Bandli Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Martin, Mike and all, I think you bring out an important point. You mentioned that you contacted the Humboldt Museum to check on the provenance of a sample. I have also contacted various museums and dealers in other countries to check on the provenance of samples. A seller can provide a potential buyer with information regarding the origin of a specific sample, but unfortunately that doesn't necessarily carry any more weight than saying This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic. In the past, I have received very specific information about the provenance of a historic specimen only to find out that the information could not be verified by the party who reportedly supplied the specimen. Mark Grossman - Original Message - From: Dark Matter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mike Bandli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 11:31 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi Mike and all, I too am curious about some of the rare meteorites I see advertised on ebay, and I look forward to reading something that demonstrates the authenticity on these historic piece beyond the somewhat unnerving statement that This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic or your money back !! Over the years I have acquired a sizable portion of a world-class collection among other special pieces and have above average knowledge of material distribution, and of course, a vested interest in preserving the reputation of the historic and valuable specimens. For example, some recent ebay offerings included Bialystok and Andover, two historic falls of extremely low distribution. Here are the auction links. http://cgi.ebay.com/Bialystok-Meteorite-Rare-Historic-Howardite-from-Poland_ W0QQitemZ250229710427QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229710427 http://cgi.ebay.com/Andover-Maine-Meteorite-Witnessed-Fall_W0QQitemZ25022971 1253QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229711253 Representatives of both these localities are in my collection and I have written about them in my Accretion Desk articles. Here are some pictures: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/andover.jpg http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok.jpg http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok_number.jpg Although I have not chased down all the total weight of the pieces of Bailystok distributed over time, I have personally gone so far as to contact the Humboldt museum (the original source of my piece and its number) shed light on the distribution of this extremely rare and historic howardite. Therefore, the appearance of half a gram of Bailystok on ebay was somewhat extraordinary, only to be outdone by its low selling price. Andover is another matter. Its distribution is greater, but still few have comparison. At $425/g for an L6, I hope there is more than an Nininger quote to back up its provenience. Other thoughts? Martin On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Mike Bandli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bob, I'm sure there are a couple people on the list that benefit from your eBay authenticity posts, but maybe you could set that time aside for doing a little research as to where your 'Zulu Queen' meteorite really came from (if it really is Zulu Queen). No sense it in pointing out other people's authenticity issues if you can't back up your own. Still waiting for an answer (the truth). Kind regards, Mike Bandli -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Evans Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:47 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? I guess it amuses me when I get a response from some idiot selling
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Hi Martin, I understand your points, and I am not tracking back meteorites in the hope of getting something for nothing. I am doing by best to track back specimens that are selling for hundreds of dollars per gram, and I am making my best effort to ensure that I don't get burned. Let's not lose site of the big picture - it took only one email for me to find out that the information that I was given about where a dealer had obtained a very rare specimen was incorrect. That information came from another dealer with an excellent reputation. Regarding other samples, I have contacted dealers who had no idea where they obtained the specimens from - not even the names of the other dealers, never mind museums. Bottom line - based on what I confirm or don't confirm, then I can decide whether I want to make the purchase of a rare specimen. It's just being an educated consumer. And the dealer with the good names who worked hard for those names are usually the ones that are the most happy to answer all the questions, and in most cases, have some sort of records. That's one of the reasons why they are good dealers in my opinion. For me, tracking back samples is also fun. Sometimes it leads to a dead end, but sometimes it leads to fantastic information about who donated the sample you just purchased to a museum. Some collectors are interested in this; others not. What is the minimum amount of information that a dealer should have in my opinion? At the very least, he or she should have some receipt or record of where he or she obtained the sample (that is, at a minimum, a record of the last transaction). I don't think this is expecting too much. And what you say is true. When buying from dealers with good reputations, it's likely not much tracking is necessary to obtain a comfort feeling about the sample. However, with certain dealers, or unknown dealers, it's important to track and confirm some information to decide whether to purchase the specimen or not. And unfortunately, with some dealers and very rare specimens, checks with museums are certainly not out of the picture. And meteorite collecting is very similar to autograph collecting where each letter is unique. And establishing the authenticity and provenance is always important. I'm talking about collecting letters of about 100 to over 200 years old of famous scientists, and those letters can sell for several hundred to several thousands of dollars. And in the autograph field, attempts to track back letters, and asking questions dealers about provenance are considered part of the norm. There are also good dealers you can trust - again, the ones that usually supply the most information. And there are other dealers where you have to be careful. But no one takes any real issue with questions and attempts to track back a letter. And it really should be no different for meteorite collecting. So to repeat again - let's not lose site of the big picture - it took only one email for me to find out that the information that I was given about where a dealer had obtained a very rare specimen was incorrect. Just my two cents! Mark Grossman - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi too, some thoughts... Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be tracked and would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in space desired to fall on Earth. But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory. In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100% certainty will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time. Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable regalia of absolute authenticity, but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built, aside from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations from private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem. Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times, where no Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and collected specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not these of today. (And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and not its provenience). If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial find are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous Lafayette stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on. And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller universities, as meteorites are (still today) an exotic fringe of classic mineralogy, remarkable amounts of known historic falls. Orphans, having left only
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Martin A. wrote: Point 1: And on the other hand it would be a matter of price. Theoretically, only theoretically, a dealer could let throw each historical specimen into a microprobe and could do the same with a specimen in a famous museums collection and could compare the values, to improve the authenticity, but whether the collector would pay then the costs, if a 100 or 200$ piece would cost then 1000$, I doubt. Point 2: The dealers have to rate the provenience and to compare with other specimens, they have a lot to loose. Buying meteorites is to a certain degree a matter of trust, from the side of the collectors. From side of the dealer it is a matter of his reputation. Point 3: If this isn't sufficient for a collector, then he simply shouldn't buy any historic specimens, then he should collect desert meteorites, where the provenance is of less than secondary importance and the value is determined solely by the material itself. Hello Martin, The above three points express the essence of this issue as well as demonstrate the potential for an exponential evolution of the problem. So let's carry the implications of your points forward one more step: Point 1: if you overtly tie price to provenience, an instantaneous dilution of the trust between buyer and seller will occur now and throughout the future. Imagine the choice between two 25g slices of Ensisheim. One at $250 and one at $5000. They look similar, and once purchased, can be claimed to be Ensisheim by the owner. The next sale or trade of the specimen carries the weight of Ensisheim because those involved have chosen to believe it is Ensisheim regardless of its past. While this problem is alive and well with smaller pieces, once the gram size (of this locality anyway) exceeds 10g, the specimen has increased its importance as a representative of Point 2: Overtly Tying provenience to dealer is even worse. I believe this very discussion is addressing this very question, and while there will always be a large factor in the equation for dealer reputation, if the meteorite dealing landscape becomes as wild as used car lots, then much of the novice and intermediate collecting market will be wiped out. Yes, I know there is degree of this anyway, but imagine Dealer Bob's Used Meteorites, buyer beware and a 10-day warranty on provenience. Compare that to Bob The Meteorite Man's specimens that come with stories, pictures, and a lifetime warranty on authenticity. Point 3: Interesting idea. One or two more logical steps and local rocks would make good collecting objects. Followed by concrete, asphalt, and charcoal briquettes since many hot desert specimens still require a considerable degree of trust of both science and seller. The point of all of this is that there is a growing and documented situation where the authenticity of rare material is in doubt. And there are very few collectors who have experience with the material in question, and I believe it is important for those very collectors to be involved in this conversation. Cheers, Martin __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Martin All, This is a very important issue, and hopefully it will be picked up by IMCA or some other organization willing to take it to some level (or levels) of objectivity. The litany of points along the slippery slope of tracking provenance make this a somewhat complicated issue, but complicated does not equal impossible. It is absolutely absurd for offers such as the top two below to be made over eBay with zero evidence to support provenance and an apparent lack of response to requests for the same. M. Altmann also contributed some excellent points. IMCA BOD, are you ready to roll? Much more important than the question of an orientation rating system, this is a great opportunity for you to establish some kind of framework around which to blow the whistle with credibility when something stinks like left out fish... Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dark Matter Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 11:32 PM To: Mike Bandli Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi Mike and all, I too am curious about some of the rare meteorites I see advertised on ebay, and I look forward to reading something that demonstrates the authenticity on these historic piece beyond the somewhat unnerving statement that This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic or your money back !! Over the years I have acquired a sizable portion of a world-class collection among other special pieces and have above average knowledge of material distribution, and of course, a vested interest in preserving the reputation of the historic and valuable specimens. For example, some recent ebay offerings included Bialystok and Andover, two historic falls of extremely low distribution. Here are the auction links. http://cgi.ebay.com/Bialystok-Meteorite-Rare-Historic-Howardite-from-Poland_ W0QQitemZ250229710427QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229710427 http://cgi.ebay.com/Andover-Maine-Meteorite-Witnessed-Fall_W0QQitemZ25022971 1253QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229711253 Representatives of both these localities are in my collection and I have written about them in my Accretion Desk articles. Here are some pictures: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/andover.jpg http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok.jpg http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok_number.jpg Although I have not chased down all the total weight of the pieces of Bailystok distributed over time, I have personally gone so far as to contact the Humboldt museum (the original source of my piece and its number) shed light on the distribution of this extremely rare and historic howardite. Therefore, the appearance of half a gram of Bailystok on ebay was somewhat extraordinary, only to be outdone by its low selling price. Andover is another matter. Its distribution is greater, but still few have comparison. At $425/g for an L6, I hope there is more than an Nininger quote to back up its provenience. Other thoughts? Martin On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Mike Bandli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bob, I'm sure there are a couple people on the list that benefit from your eBay authenticity posts, but maybe you could set that time aside for doing a little research as to where your 'Zulu Queen' meteorite really came from (if it really is Zulu Queen). No sense it in pointing out other people's authenticity issues if you can't back up your own. Still waiting for an answer (the truth). Kind regards, Mike Bandli -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Evans Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:47 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? I guess it amuses me when I get a response from some idiot selling junk as meteorites on ebay Case in Point : http://cgi.ebay.com/meteorites-and-collectables_W0QQitemZ110242519960QQihZ00 1QQcategoryZ3224QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Response to my inquiry regarding authenticity : Dear maccers531, your not going to like this but its intuition ive been studying them for awhile now and i know what im doing because also when i check certain areas i found stuff at i go back later and ive recovered what ever else new fell around they are planetary and ill probably be told no its not real but i know they are and if you do not like them send them back for a full refund and also the magnet the look the fusion lets talk - deazombie Duh ! Seems like all these people selling fakes one ebay share the inability to spell correctly and use proper grammar. BE __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
One thing which I think the IMCA could do to give a lead here is some kind of new collectors' guide. I joined about a year ago, not long after I started collecting, as I correctly worked out that I'd want to trade on some of my specimens at some point, and wanted to do as much as possible to 'get it right'. I think more by luck than judgement, my records meet the 'minimum level' Mark G talks about - I log source and month of purchase, I keep all CoAs, I also keep a photo of each specimen - taken from the eBay sale, dealer's web site, wherever I've obtained it from. Despite this I know there are a couple of mistakes for some of my earliest entries. It may seem obvious to those who've been in the game for a while, but I had to figure this out for myself - I didn't find any advice on record-keeping. If I hadn't taken these steps from day one then my collection would be substantially less valuable, but more to the point the whole chain of provenance would have been broken while the material was under my stewardship. I think we all have a part to play when it comes to authenticity; some kind of summary from IMCA to new members could go a little way to addressing these points. As ever, just my 2p worth... Dave Gheesling wrote: IMCA BOD, are you ready to roll? Much more important than the question of an orientation rating system, this is a great opportunity for you to establish some kind of framework around which to blow the whistle with credibility when something stinks like left out fish... Dave -- Mark's Meteorite Pages: http://meteorites.cc __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Grossman Gesendet: Samstag, 12. April 2008 17:02 An: Martin Altmann; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi Martin, I understand your points, and I am not tracking back meteorites in the hope of getting something for nothing. I am doing by best to track back specimens that are selling for hundreds of dollars per gram, and I am making my best effort to ensure that I don't get burned. Let's not lose site of the big picture - it took only one email for me to find out that the information that I was given about where a dealer had obtained a very rare specimen was incorrect. That information came from another dealer with an excellent reputation. Regarding other samples, I have contacted dealers who had no idea where they obtained the specimens from - not even the names of the other dealers, never mind museums. Bottom line - based on what I confirm or don't confirm, then I can decide whether I want to make the purchase of a rare specimen. It's just being an educated consumer. And the dealer with the good names who worked hard for those names are usually the ones that are the most happy to answer all the questions, and in most cases, have some sort of records. That's one of the reasons why they are good dealers in my opinion. For me, tracking back samples is also fun. Sometimes it leads to a dead end, but sometimes it leads to fantastic information about who donated the sample you just purchased to a museum. Some collectors are interested in this; others not. What is the minimum amount of information that a dealer should have in my opinion? At the very least, he or she should have some receipt or record of where he or she obtained the sample (that is, at a minimum, a record of the last transaction). I don't think this is expecting too much. And what you say is true. When buying from dealers with good reputations, it's likely not much tracking is necessary to obtain a comfort feeling about the sample. However, with certain dealers, or unknown dealers, it's important to track and confirm some information to decide whether to purchase the specimen or not. And unfortunately, with some dealers and very rare specimens, checks with museums are certainly not out of the picture. And meteorite collecting is very similar to autograph collecting where each letter is unique. And establishing the authenticity and provenance is always important. I'm talking about collecting letters of about 100 to over 200 years old of famous scientists, and those letters can sell for several hundred to several thousands of dollars. And in the autograph field, attempts to track back letters, and asking questions dealers about provenance are considered part of the norm. There are also good dealers you can trust - again, the ones that usually supply the most information. And there are other dealers where you have to be careful. But no one takes any real issue with questions and attempts to track back a letter. And it really should be no different for meteorite collecting. So to repeat again - let's not lose site of the big picture - it took only one email for me to find out that the information that I was given about where a dealer had obtained a very rare specimen was incorrect. Just my two cents! Mark Grossman - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi too, some thoughts... Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be tracked and would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in space desired to fall on Earth. But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory. In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100% certainty will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time. Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable regalia of absolute authenticity, but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built, aside from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations from private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem. Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times, where no Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and collected specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not these of today. (And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and not its provenience). If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial find are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous Lafayette stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on. And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Martin -- the problem they are all referring to is the questionable practices of Bob Evans. I believe he has sold 5-6 different meteorites (that we know of) --that might be imposters--those being-- Zulu Queen---he stated he procured it from UCLA---on contact they denied this. It is all in IOM and Schwade Bialystok Plymouth Claretin Andover--he won't even say where he got it. Almost all in USNM and Jim and me. He does not have the pull to do exchanges with most major institutions. Ensisheim Think of all the collectors who received Ensisheim on ebay from him and it is really most likely St. Severin. Either that or he has uncovered another stone!!! There needs to be action done against this guy. He never responded to my inquiries on where he came up with these. And yet he has the nerve to bring up other suspected scammers on ebay. I hate hypocrites. I hate scammers. My vote is to ostracize him until he comes clean. Kick him off the list. Get a website entitled Suspicious Meteorites Sold By Bob Evans AKA Maccers... . Encourage all who have bought specimens from him to take him up on his offer and ask for their money back. Since my email to the list several weeks ago which Bob never replied either publicly or privately I have had quite a few listers write with stories of his shady business practices. One lister in fact stated he has a 5K judgemnt against Bob. All these complaints need to be brought out in public and perhaps the Illinois Attorney General notiified. Too many times scam artists of which he appears to be can continue to prosper due to everyone remaining silent. I look forward to other input. I know my stance is quite intense but there is quite a bit at stake for my collection as well as this field. I think the lister who felt IMCA needs to get involved is right on as well. I look forward to their input/comments. Best, Jay - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi too, some thoughts... Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be tracked and would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in space desired to fall on Earth. But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory. In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100% certainty will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time. Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable regalia of absolute authenticity, but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built, aside from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations from private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem. Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times, where no Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and collected specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not these of today. (And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and not its provenience). If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial find are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous Lafayette stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on. And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller universities, as meteorites are (still today) an exotic fringe of classic mineralogy, remarkable amounts of known historic falls. Orphans, having left only a label hanging around the neck like lost pieces of luggage in the London airport. Nobody can't remember, wherefrom and when they were acquired, those who did it, long passed away Of course it's commendable, that MetSoc or MetBase tried to capture the tkws as complete as possible - but it's only an attempt, it always has to be incomplete and the figures of kgs and grams aren't carved in stone. In fact those figures there are based only on collection catalogues and or publications of meteorite scientists. So regarding the historical finds they will be always deficient. I mean you see it in these cases, which might be in your opinion not that tragic - with the mass irons like Gibeon, Sikhote-Alin, Canyon and so on, Where you still today will find the old estimations of Nininger, Krinov and so on - although really everyone knows, that many tons more were recovered. But also with modern falls - just take Chiang Khan, which we recently had here - the Catalogue is unnecessarily improper. I mean it's no secret that the geological survey of Thailand immediately found a few days after the fall a big chunk, which is in the university of Bangkok - but the MetSoc didn't noticed it, additionally the Catalogue lists a larger piece at UCLA
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
The offerings in question all revolve around a single dealer - Bob Evans. It's no secret that his ethics have come under scrutiny recently (and in the past). I know there are members of our community investigating some of his past and recent offerings and I sincerely hope they present their data to us when finished. I don't own or know enough about Bailystok or Andover to comment on them, but when another collector and I checked the provenance behind Bob's 'Zulu Queen,' we discovered that it was not true. It is now unclear if it is really Zulu Queen, as I have been unable to extract any more data from him. There are others out there reading these threads that may be hesitant to post. I would encourage you to be a part of this discussion. It is these very issues that can potentially hurt our collections and hobby. Mike Bandli -Original Message- From: Dark Matter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 8:32 PM To: Mike Bandli Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi Mike and all, I too am curious about some of the rare meteorites I see advertised on ebay, and I look forward to reading something that demonstrates the authenticity on these historic piece beyond the somewhat unnerving statement that This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic or your money back !! Over the years I have acquired a sizable portion of a world-class collection among other special pieces and have above average knowledge of material distribution, and of course, a vested interest in preserving the reputation of the historic and valuable specimens. For example, some recent ebay offerings included Bialystok and Andover, two historic falls of extremely low distribution. Here are the auction links. http://cgi.ebay.com/Bialystok-Meteorite-Rare-Historic-Howardite-from-Poland_ W0QQitemZ250229710427QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229710427 http://cgi.ebay.com/Andover-Maine-Meteorite-Witnessed-Fall_W0QQitemZ25022971 1253QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229711253 Representatives of both these localities are in my collection and I have written about them in my Accretion Desk articles. Here are some pictures: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/andover.jpg http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok.jpg http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok_number.jpg Although I have not chased down all the total weight of the pieces of Bailystok distributed over time, I have personally gone so far as to contact the Humboldt museum (the original source of my piece and its number) shed light on the distribution of this extremely rare and historic howardite. Therefore, the appearance of half a gram of Bailystok on ebay was somewhat extraordinary, only to be outdone by its low selling price. Andover is another matter. Its distribution is greater, but still few have comparison. At $425/g for an L6, I hope there is more than an Nininger quote to back up its provenience. Other thoughts? Martin On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Mike Bandli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bob, I'm sure there are a couple people on the list that benefit from your eBay authenticity posts, but maybe you could set that time aside for doing a little research as to where your 'Zulu Queen' meteorite really came from (if it really is Zulu Queen). No sense it in pointing out other people's authenticity issues if you can't back up your own. Still waiting for an answer (the truth). Kind regards, Mike Bandli -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Evans Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:47 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? I guess it amuses me when I get a response from some idiot selling junk as meteorites on ebay Case in Point : http://cgi.ebay.com/meteorites-and-collectables_W0QQitemZ110242519960QQihZ00 1QQcategoryZ3224QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Response to my inquiry regarding authenticity : Dear maccers531, your not going to like this but its intuition ive been studying them for awhile now and i know what im doing because also when i check certain areas i found stuff at i go back later and ive recovered what ever else new fell around they are planetary and ill probably be told no its not real but i know they are and if you do not like them send them back for a full refund and also the magnet the look the fusion lets talk - deazombie Duh ! Seems like all these people selling fakes one ebay share the inability to spell correctly and use proper grammar. BE __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Hi, Norbert ( All), I realize that IMCA is doing this now as it relates to members within the group, and this is a wonderful start. My sense is that you, as a Board of Directors, could perhaps take some of the discussion which has unfolded here and develop a deeper and more objective approach to establishing certain standards which wouldn't be so dependent upon glittering generalities such as a dealer's reputation (outside of IMCA, could a high eBay feedback rating be perceived to be a good reputation, for example?), the willingness to accept returns and the like. To suggest only one possible idea out of countless, while it might be expensive to have a specimen formally registered with IMCA, I also imagine it could well add to the value of the specimen itself (and, therefore, that in at least some cases to start there would be a market for this if the market's perception of increased value in the specimen was higher than the cost of acquiring such a registration). Individuals which have been well cataloged in recent falls (Svend Buhl's terrific catalog of the Bassikounou fall comes to mind) would easily be logged into such a system, and in the event specimens were cut it would also be possible (at least at the outset) to track slices which came from certain parent individuals, etc. Anyway, the point is that the IMCA is currently in a unique position to put some teeth into the matter, and this dialogue has been a great start. Even if a seller is outside of IMCA (which I presume most if not all shady sellers would be, by design), these standards might prove to be applicable in legal disputes, etc, going forward... All best, and thanks for your service via IMCA, Dave -Original Message- From: Norbert Classen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 12:35 PM To: 'Mark Crawford'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Dear Mark, dear Dave, and All, Actually, we (the IMCA Board of Directors) have been watching these auctions, and discussing all sorts of implications during the last few weeks. However, we can't do much if the seller is no IMCA member. If it was an IMCA member we would have taken immediate action - be assured of that. So, what do we learn: buy from IMCA members or from established dealers who are willing to answer all your questions regarding the provenance of their samples. If the seller refuses to answer your legit questions, or doesn't listen to your concerns, just don't buy. And, as Mark suggested, please keep as many records of your purchases as possible, and don't be afraid of asking questions. We might come up with something better, and kind of a collector's guide in the future (thanks for bringing that up in the first place), but - as I wrote above - we're still discussing all of the implications and facetts of this complicated issue. If you have suggestions, and ideas, we're more than willing to listen to you, and we are all watching this discussion with great interest. All the best, Norbert Classen President IMCA Inc. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- One thing which I think the IMCA could do to give a lead here is some kind of new collectors' guide. I joined about a year ago, not long after I started collecting, as I correctly worked out that I'd want to trade on some of my specimens at some point, and wanted to do as much as possible to 'get it right'. I think more by luck than judgement, my records meet the 'minimum level' Mark G talks about - I log source and month of purchase, I keep all CoAs, I also keep a photo of each specimen - taken from the eBay sale, dealer's web site, wherever I've obtained it from. Despite this I know there are a couple of mistakes for some of my earliest entries. It may seem obvious to those who've been in the game for a while, but I had to figure this out for myself - I didn't find any advice on record-keeping. If I hadn't taken these steps from day one then my collection would be substantially less valuable, but more to the point the whole chain of provenance would have been broken while the material was under my stewardship. I think we all have a part to play when it comes to authenticity; some kind of summary from IMCA to new members could go a little way to addressing these points. As ever, just my 2p worth... Dave Gheesling wrote: IMCA BOD, are you ready to roll? Much more important than the question of an orientation rating system, this is a great opportunity for you to establish some kind of framework around which to blow the whistle with credibility when something stinks like left out fish... Dave -- Mark's Meteorite Pages: http://meteorites.cc __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
I know Jay, but I can't explicitly write names here, I'm a dealer and some could misunderstand it and think, that I would pursue a certain intention. So I rather write about barbers and surgeons... In fact one could express it also less complicate with the simple, but nevertheless true words of my uncle Alex Seidel: Know your dealer. :-) Martin PS: And if you don't know any dealers yet, buy strictly IMCA. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Wendy Piatek Gesendet: Samstag, 12. April 2008 18:40 An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Martin Altmann Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Martin -- the problem they are all referring to is the questionable practices of Bob Evans. I believe he has sold 5-6 different meteorites (that we know of) --that might be imposters--those being-- Zulu Queen---he stated he procured it from UCLA---on contact they denied this. It is all in IOM and Schwade Bialystok Plymouth Claretin Andover--he won't even say where he got it. Almost all in USNM and Jim and me. He does not have the pull to do exchanges with most major institutions. Ensisheim Think of all the collectors who received Ensisheim on ebay from him and it is really most likely St. Severin. Either that or he has uncovered another stone!!! There needs to be action done against this guy. He never responded to my inquiries on where he came up with these. And yet he has the nerve to bring up other suspected scammers on ebay. I hate hypocrites. I hate scammers. My vote is to ostracize him until he comes clean. Kick him off the list. Get a website entitled Suspicious Meteorites Sold By Bob Evans AKA Maccers... . Encourage all who have bought specimens from him to take him up on his offer and ask for their money back. Since my email to the list several weeks ago which Bob never replied either publicly or privately I have had quite a few listers write with stories of his shady business practices. One lister in fact stated he has a 5K judgemnt against Bob. All these complaints need to be brought out in public and perhaps the Illinois Attorney General notiified. Too many times scam artists of which he appears to be can continue to prosper due to everyone remaining silent. I look forward to other input. I know my stance is quite intense but there is quite a bit at stake for my collection as well as this field. I think the lister who felt IMCA needs to get involved is right on as well. I look forward to their input/comments. Best, Jay - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi too, some thoughts... Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be tracked and would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in space desired to fall on Earth. But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory. In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100% certainty will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time. Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable regalia of absolute authenticity, but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built, aside from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations from private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem. Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times, where no Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and collected specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not these of today. (And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and not its provenience). If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial find are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous Lafayette stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on. And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller universities, as meteorites are (still today) an exotic fringe of classic mineralogy, remarkable amounts of known historic falls. Orphans, having left only a label hanging around the neck like lost pieces of luggage in the London airport. Nobody can't remember, wherefrom and when they were acquired, those who did it, long passed away Of course it's commendable, that MetSoc or MetBase tried to capture the tkws as complete as possible - but it's only an attempt, it always has to be incomplete and the figures of kgs and grams aren't carved in stone. In fact those figures there are based only on collection catalogues and or publications of meteorite scientists. So regarding the historical finds they will be always deficient. I mean
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Other thoughts? Hi Martin, Here are my thoughts and opinion. This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic or your money back !! The word or bothers me. It's a hedge. This statement should NEVER appear on a meteorite sale listing, be it auction, retail or whatever. Either it is a meteorite, or it isn't and if the seller isn't sure, the seller should say so. Think about it. It is certainly acceptable to offer a refund for various reasons, but it is not acceptable to offer a refund because the meteorite you are selling is not really a meteorite, or the meteorite which claim it to be. How much sense does that make? None! IMHO, anyone who buys a meteorite under those circumstances is asking for trouble. Either it is a meteorite or it is not and if you are not 100% sure it is what you claim it is, then you don't need to be presenting it as such and selling it as such. I am astounded anyone would buy a meteorite with that disclaimer. I am just now beginning to build back up my collection. Only reputable dealers and sources will get my money and I certainly won't be spending money on auctions or retailers where I have to prove authenticity to get a refund. The onus is not on the buyer to prove it is a meteorite, it is on the seller. BTW, Martin, nice to see you writing on the list again. How is Big Sky Country? -Walter Branch - Original Message - From: Dark Matter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mike Bandli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 11:31 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi Mike and all, I too am curious about some of the rare meteorites I see advertised on ebay, and I look forward to reading something that demonstrates the authenticity on these historic piece beyond the somewhat unnerving statement that This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic or your money back !! Over the years I have acquired a sizable portion of a world-class collection among other special pieces and have above average knowledge of material distribution, and of course, a vested interest in preserving the reputation of the historic and valuable specimens. For example, some recent ebay offerings included Bialystok and Andover, two historic falls of extremely low distribution. Here are the auction links. http://cgi.ebay.com/Bialystok-Meteorite-Rare-Historic-Howardite-from-Poland_W0QQitemZ250229710427QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229710427 http://cgi.ebay.com/Andover-Maine-Meteorite-Witnessed-Fall_W0QQitemZ250229711253QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229711253 Representatives of both these localities are in my collection and I have written about them in my Accretion Desk articles. Here are some pictures: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/andover.jpg http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok.jpg http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok_number.jpg Although I have not chased down all the total weight of the pieces of Bailystok distributed over time, I have personally gone so far as to contact the Humboldt museum (the original source of my piece and its number) shed light on the distribution of this extremely rare and historic howardite. Therefore, the appearance of half a gram of Bailystok on ebay was somewhat extraordinary, only to be outdone by its low selling price. Andover is another matter. Its distribution is greater, but still few have comparison. At $425/g for an L6, I hope there is more than an Nininger quote to back up its provenience. Other thoughts? Martin On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Mike Bandli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bob, I'm sure there are a couple people on the list that benefit from your eBay authenticity posts, but maybe you could set that time aside for doing a little research as to where your 'Zulu Queen' meteorite really came from (if it really is Zulu Queen). No sense it in pointing out other people's authenticity issues if you can't back up your own. Still waiting for an answer (the truth). Kind regards, Mike Bandli -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Evans Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:47 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? I guess it amuses me when I get a response from some idiot selling junk as meteorites on ebay Case in Point : http://cgi.ebay.com/meteorites-and-collectables_W0QQitemZ110242519960QQihZ00 1QQcategoryZ3224QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Response to my inquiry regarding authenticity : Dear maccers531, your not going to like this but its intuition ive been studying them for awhile now and i know what im doing because also when i check certain areas i found stuff at i go back later and ive recovered what ever else new fell around they are planetary and ill probably be told no its not real but i
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Jay All, While I have not been directly affected by what you've mentioned below -- at least as far as I know...IF this has been happening, how the hell can anyone know with certainty how deep the iceberg runs?! -- I'm fully in support of either helping the IMCA tackle this with more substance or establishing a group of collectors who have enough at stake in this arena to take it on separately. The integrity (dual meaning) of this field is absolutely, positively priority #1. I hope you get many more responses from others who have more experience and expertise than do I... Sincerely, Dave www.fallingrocks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wendy Piatek Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 12:40 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Martin Altmann Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Martin -- the problem they are all referring to is the questionable practices of Bob Evans. I believe he has sold 5-6 different meteorites (that we know of) --that might be imposters--those being-- Zulu Queen---he stated he procured it from UCLA---on contact they denied this. It is all in IOM and Schwade Bialystok Plymouth Claretin Andover--he won't even say where he got it. Almost all in USNM and Jim and me. He does not have the pull to do exchanges with most major institutions. Ensisheim Think of all the collectors who received Ensisheim on ebay from him and it is really most likely St. Severin. Either that or he has uncovered another stone!!! There needs to be action done against this guy. He never responded to my inquiries on where he came up with these. And yet he has the nerve to bring up other suspected scammers on ebay. I hate hypocrites. I hate scammers. My vote is to ostracize him until he comes clean. Kick him off the list. Get a website entitled Suspicious Meteorites Sold By Bob Evans AKA Maccers... . Encourage all who have bought specimens from him to take him up on his offer and ask for their money back. Since my email to the list several weeks ago which Bob never replied either publicly or privately I have had quite a few listers write with stories of his shady business practices. One lister in fact stated he has a 5K judgemnt against Bob. All these complaints need to be brought out in public and perhaps the Illinois Attorney General notiified. Too many times scam artists of which he appears to be can continue to prosper due to everyone remaining silent. I look forward to other input. I know my stance is quite intense but there is quite a bit at stake for my collection as well as this field. I think the lister who felt IMCA needs to get involved is right on as well. I look forward to their input/comments. Best, Jay - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi too, some thoughts... Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be tracked and would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in space desired to fall on Earth. But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory. In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100% certainty will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time. Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable regalia of absolute authenticity, but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built, aside from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations from private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem. Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times, where no Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and collected specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not these of today. (And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and not its provenience). If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial find are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous Lafayette stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on. And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller universities, as meteorites are (still today) an exotic fringe of classic mineralogy, remarkable amounts of known historic falls. Orphans, having left only a label hanging around the neck like lost pieces of luggage in the London airport. Nobody can't remember, wherefrom and when they were acquired, those who did it, long passed away Of course it's commendable, that MetSoc or MetBase tried to capture the tkws as complete as possible - but it's only an attempt, it always has to be incomplete and the figures of kgs and grams aren't carved
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Hi Norbert and all, I fully understand and appreciate the IMCA dilemma. However, the scope of the specimens in question has now moved into both into the collections of IMCA members and IMCA dealers. Therefore, I believe this is now a serious IMCA issue since we have a digital paper trail. Cheers, Martin __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Ditto. -Original Message- From: Dark Matter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 1:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Mark Crawford; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi Norbert and all, I fully understand and appreciate the IMCA dilemma. However, the scope of the specimens in question has now moved into both into the collections of IMCA members and IMCA dealers. Therefore, I believe this is now a serious IMCA issue since we have a digital paper trail. Cheers, Martin __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Hi Martin, and All, Yes, we are aware of that - and that's our major concern. We've also been doing some independent research on the specimens/meteorites in question, and if you would like to add to our database, please contact us on or off list. Kind Regards, Norbert -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Hi Norbert and all, I fully understand and appreciate the IMCA dilemma. However, the scope of the specimens in question has now moved into both into the collections of IMCA members and IMCA dealers. Therefore, I believe this is now a serious IMCA issue since we have a digital paper trail. Cheers, Martin __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Hi Jay and all, I am not sure where this all started or where it will end but I think Jay has brought up a slightly different issue here. Let me say up front I do not know about Zulu Queen or any of these other rare meteorite in question. I do know how I feel about knowingly allowing a person of VERY questionable character to be a part of our community. It is almost like we are taking part in the charade if we knowing allow a shady Charterer to be part of this list. Now I am not speaking of any person in particular, because I have no personal knowledge of any of the dealings in question here. I am simply responding to the whole idea if there is such a person amongst us, the very least we can do is ban them from the list and I hope we can take much more aggressive action to either slow down the shady deals or end them if that is possible. On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Wendy Piatek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martin -- the problem they are all referring to is the questionable practices of Bob Evans. I believe he has sold 5-6 different meteorites (that we know of) --that might be imposters--those being-- Zulu Queen---he stated he procured it from UCLA---on contact they denied this. It is all in IOM and Schwade Bialystok Plymouth Claretin Andover--he won't even say where he got it. Almost all in USNM and Jim and me. He does not have the pull to do exchanges with most major institutions. Ensisheim Think of all the collectors who received Ensisheim on ebay from him and it is really most likely St. Severin. Either that or he has uncovered another stone!!! There needs to be action done against this guy. He never responded to my inquiries on where he came up with these. And yet he has the nerve to bring up other suspected scammers on ebay. I hate hypocrites. I hate scammers. My vote is to ostracize him until he comes clean. Kick him off the list. Get a website entitled Suspicious Meteorites Sold By Bob Evans AKA Maccers... . Encourage all who have bought specimens from him to take him up on his offer and ask for their money back. Since my email to the list several weeks ago which Bob never replied either publicly or privately I have had quite a few listers write with stories of his shady business practices. One lister in fact stated he has a 5K judgemnt against Bob. All these complaints need to be brought out in public and perhaps the Illinois Attorney General notiified. Too many times scam artists of which he appears to be can continue to prosper due to everyone remaining silent. I look forward to other input. I know my stance is quite intense but there is quite a bit at stake for my collection as well as this field. I think the lister who felt IMCA needs to get involved is right on as well. I look forward to their input/comments. Best, Jay - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi too, some thoughts... Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be tracked and would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in space desired to fall on Earth. But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory. In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100% certainty will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time. Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable regalia of absolute authenticity, but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built, aside from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations from private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem. Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times, where no Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and collected specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not these of today. (And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and not its provenience). If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial find are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous Lafayette stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on. And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller universities, as meteorites are (still today) an exotic fringe of classic mineralogy, remarkable amounts of known historic falls. Orphans, having left only a label hanging around the neck like lost pieces of luggage in the London airport. Nobody can't remember, wherefrom and when they were acquired, those who did it, long passed away Of course it's commendable, that MetSoc or MetBase tried to capture the tkws as complete as possible
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Greetings List Members, On June 24th 2004 there were some claims made against the person in question. Apparently there was a lawsuit against this seller. I have stayed clear of him ever since, though I never dealt with him. I suggest people look up the archives and do their own reading and decide for themselves. It may be the issue was resolved but I guess my feeling is how it got to that point in the first place. Best! --AL Mitterling Wendy Piatek wrote: Martin -- the problem they are all referring to is the questionable practices of Bob Evans. I believe he has sold 5-6 different meteorites (that we know of) --that might be imposters--those being-- Zulu Queen---he stated he procured it from UCLA---on contact they denied this. It is all in IOM and Schwade Bialystok Plymouth Claretin Andover--he won't even say where he got it. Almost all in USNM and Jim and me. He does not have the pull to do exchanges with most major institutions. Ensisheim Think of all the collectors who received Ensisheim on ebay from him and it is really most likely St. Severin. Either that or he has uncovered another stone!!! There needs to be action done against this guy. He never responded to my inquiries on where he came up with these. And yet he has the nerve to bring up other suspected scammers on ebay. I hate hypocrites. I hate scammers. My vote is to ostracize him until he comes clean. Kick him off the list. Get a website entitled Suspicious Meteorites Sold By Bob Evans AKA Maccers... . Encourage all who have bought specimens from him to take him up on his offer and ask for their money back. Since my email to the list several weeks ago which Bob never replied either publicly or privately I have had quite a few listers write with stories of his shady business practices. One lister in fact stated he has a 5K judgemnt against Bob. All these complaints need to be brought out in public and perhaps the Illinois Attorney General notiified. Too many times scam artists of which he appears to be can continue to prosper due to everyone remaining silent. I look forward to other input. I know my stance is quite intense but there is quite a bit at stake for my collection as well as this field. I think the lister who felt IMCA needs to get involved is right on as well. I look forward to their input/comments. Best, Jay - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi too, some thoughts... Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be tracked and would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in space desired to fall on Earth. But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory. In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100% certainty will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time. Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable regalia of absolute authenticity, but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built, aside from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations from private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem. Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times, where no Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and collected specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not these of today. (And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and not its provenience). If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial find are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous Lafayette stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on. And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller universities, as meteorites are (still today) an exotic fringe of classic mineralogy, remarkable amounts of known historic falls. Orphans, having left only a label hanging around the neck like lost pieces of luggage in the London airport. Nobody can't remember, wherefrom and when they were acquired, those who did it, long passed away Of course it's commendable, that MetSoc or MetBase tried to capture the tkws as complete as possible - but it's only an attempt, it always has to be incomplete and the figures of kgs and grams aren't carved in stone. In fact those figures there are based only on collection catalogues and or publications of meteorite scientists. So regarding the historical finds they will be always deficient. I mean you see it in these cases, which might be in your opinion not that tragic - with the mass irons like Gibeon, Sikhote-Alin, Canyon and so on, Where you still today will find
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Hello All, Norbert wrote:[Yes, we are aware of that - and that's our major concern. We've also been doing some independent research on the specimens/meteorites in question, and if you would like to add to our database, please contact us on or off list.] Just be sure if it is still related to all the posts to keep it public and not start off list debates. Some of us like to hear the end of the story. Thank you! Dave, even if a seller is outside of IMCA does not imply he/she is a shady seller. Just write to the list and ask about this person. Some very successful dealers are not members of the IMCA. It would be wonderful if the IMCA will take a stand of getting misrepresentations cleared up though. And I do believe this is already happening like Norbert mentioned. But then again would we have heard of it if it wasn't for Mike Bandli asking questions? It is good information if this problem is made aware to all of us and not kept it secret between some members. And last if someone does have been mislead and the person is not a member of the met-list or the IMCA, I still hope the info would be listed on the sites, so we will all be aware of the dealings. With best regards, Moni _ Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_getintouch_042008 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Moni All, Thanks for your comments, Moni. IF MY COMMENTS HAVE IN ANY WAY SUGGESTED THAT ALL NON-IMCA SELLERS ARE SHADY, THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY IN NO WAY THE INTENDED INFERENCE ON MY PART! Many such dealers are friends of mine, and for whatever reason (s) I have acquired most of my collection outside of IMCA dealers. I am only a collector (not a dealer), but I trade or sell excess material from time to time and believe that even considering my IMCA membership (# 5967) that they carry much, much greater clout and presence of reputation than do I. The Gemological Institute of America (GIA) has become so significant that, for all intents and purposes, it is impossible for a dealer to trade domestically in, say, diamonds without being a member of the same. IMCA does not have that clout yet, and it is no shortcoming or discredit to them that this is the case because IMCA is so much younger an organization. Perhaps matters such as these -- and their responses to them -- will change that over time... All best, Moni, Dave www.fallingrocks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Moni Waiblinger Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 2:07 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hello All, Norbert wrote:[Yes, we are aware of that - and that's our major concern. We've also been doing some independent research on the specimens/meteorites in question, and if you would like to add to our database, please contact us on or off list.] Just be sure if it is still related to all the posts to keep it public and not start off list debates. Some of us like to hear the end of the story. Thank you! Dave, even if a seller is outside of IMCA does not imply he/she is a shady seller. Just write to the list and ask about this person. Some very successful dealers are not members of the IMCA. It would be wonderful if the IMCA will take a stand of getting misrepresentations cleared up though. And I do believe this is already happening like Norbert mentioned. But then again would we have heard of it if it wasn't for Mike Bandli asking questions? It is good information if this problem is made aware to all of us and not kept it secret between some members. And last if someone does have been mislead and the person is not a member of the met-list or the IMCA, I still hope the info would be listed on the sites, so we will all be aware of the dealings. With best regards, Moni _ Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh _getintouch_042008 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Martin and all, Jay is correct on this, as far my own situation and to my postings. You can add Mooresfort to the list of samples that Bob Evans has offered for sale (offered to me privately, not on eBay), and for which the information he supplied was not verified by the source he quoted. The source he quoted was a highly respected meteorite dealer who said he never had any Mooresfort samples. Mark Grossman - Original Message - From: Wendy Piatek [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Martin -- the problem they are all referring to is the questionable practices of Bob Evans. I believe he has sold 5-6 different meteorites (that we know of) --that might be imposters--those being-- Zulu Queen---he stated he procured it from UCLA---on contact they denied this. It is all in IOM and Schwade Bialystok Plymouth Claretin Andover--he won't even say where he got it. Almost all in USNM and Jim and me. He does not have the pull to do exchanges with most major institutions. Ensisheim Think of all the collectors who received Ensisheim on ebay from him and it is really most likely St. Severin. Either that or he has uncovered another stone!!! There needs to be action done against this guy. He never responded to my inquiries on where he came up with these. And yet he has the nerve to bring up other suspected scammers on ebay. I hate hypocrites. I hate scammers. My vote is to ostracize him until he comes clean. Kick him off the list. Get a website entitled Suspicious Meteorites Sold By Bob Evans AKA Maccers... . Encourage all who have bought specimens from him to take him up on his offer and ask for their money back. Since my email to the list several weeks ago which Bob never replied either publicly or privately I have had quite a few listers write with stories of his shady business practices. One lister in fact stated he has a 5K judgemnt against Bob. All these complaints need to be brought out in public and perhaps the Illinois Attorney General notiified. Too many times scam artists of which he appears to be can continue to prosper due to everyone remaining silent. I look forward to other input. I know my stance is quite intense but there is quite a bit at stake for my collection as well as this field. I think the lister who felt IMCA needs to get involved is right on as well. I look forward to their input/comments. Best, Jay - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi too, some thoughts... Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be tracked and would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in space desired to fall on Earth. But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory. In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100% certainty will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time. Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable regalia of absolute authenticity, but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built, aside from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations from private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem. Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times, where no Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and collected specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not these of today. (And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and not its provenience). If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial find are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous Lafayette stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on. And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller universities, as meteorites are (still today) an exotic fringe of classic mineralogy, remarkable amounts of known historic falls. Orphans, having left only a label hanging around the neck like lost pieces of luggage in the London airport. Nobody can't remember, wherefrom and when they were acquired, those who did it, long passed away Of course it's commendable, that MetSoc or MetBase tried to capture the tkws as complete as possible - but it's only an attempt, it always has to be incomplete and the figures of kgs and grams aren't carved in stone. In fact those figures there are based only on collection catalogues and or publications of meteorite scientists. So regarding the historical finds they will be always deficient. I mean you see it in these cases, which might
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Dear Moni, and All, And last if someone does have been mislead and the person is not a member of the met-list or the IMCA, I still hope the info would be listed on the sites, so we will all be aware of the dealings. The IMCA will certainly do so as soon a we have solid proof. That's not always that easy in cases of alleged misrepresentation of specimens, and we are not in the position to accuse anyone of fraud or misrepresentation unless we have such proof. Unfortunatelly, sometimes we only have strong suspicions, or pieces of circumstantial evidence... In the case in question we are still in the process of investigating the facts - we contacted museums and collectors that could have served as sources of said specimens, for example. And we learned that even Museum and University records are often not reliable or complete. Take Bialystok, for instance: we found that the Museum of Berlin sold/traded out some 30g of Bialystok, but when, and to whom? The current curator had no answer to this, and so there could be quite a bit real Bialystok around... I just mentioned Bialystok because Martin already mentioned it in a previous email. There are other examples, and cases that we checked into, but I won't tell our findings in public as long as the seller in question is reading all of this, and could misuse that information. You see our dilemma? So, if you want to contribute to our investigation - we are always open for your input. Last but not least, be assured that we will keep you up to date, and that we will tell you the end of the story, if we ever come to an end. All the best, Norbert Classen President, IMCA Inc. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Hello All, Norbert wrote:[Yes, we are aware of that - and that's our major concern. We've also been doing some independent research on the specimens/meteorites in question, and if you would like to add to our database, please contact us on or off list.] Just be sure if it is still related to all the posts to keep it public and not start off list debates. Some of us like to hear the end of the story. Thank you! Dave, even if a seller is outside of IMCA does not imply he/she is a shady seller. Just write to the list and ask about this person. Some very successful dealers are not members of the IMCA. It would be wonderful if the IMCA will take a stand of getting misrepresentations cleared up though. And I do believe this is already happening like Norbert mentioned. But then again would we have heard of it if it wasn't for Mike Bandli asking questions? It is good information if this problem is made aware to all of us and not kept it secret between some members. And last if someone does have been mislead and the person is not a member of the met-list or the IMCA, I still hope the info would be listed on the sites, so we will all be aware of the dealings. With best regards, Moni _ Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh _getintouch_042008 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Hi Mark and all, Speaking of Mooresfort: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/May/Accretion_Desk.htm Cheers, Martin On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Mark Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You can add Mooresfort to the list of samples that Bob Evans has offered for sale (offered to me privately, not on eBay), and for which the information he supplied was not verified by the source he quoted. The source he quoted was a highly respected meteorite dealer who said he never had any Mooresfort samples. Mark Grossman __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Poor spelling a bad sign? Yup. But the real proof of the pudding - for any meteorite purchase - is whether they have the proper information and documents to back up their assertions of authenticity. As far as buying meteorites, I'll choose a poor speller with proper documents over an English scholar without them any day. Mark Grossman - Original Message - From: Bob Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 6:46 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? I guess it amuses me when I get a response from some idiot selling junk as meteorites on ebay Case in Point : http://cgi.ebay.com/meteorites-and-collectables_W0QQitemZ110242519960QQihZ001QQcategoryZ3224QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Response to my inquiry regarding authenticity : Dear maccers531, your not going to like this but its intuition ive been studying them for awhile now and i know what im doing because also when i check certain areas i found stuff at i go back later and ive recovered what ever else new fell around they are planetary and ill probably be told no its not real but i know they are and if you do not like them send them back for a full refund and also the magnet the look the fusion lets talk - deazombie Duh ! Seems like all these people selling fakes one ebay share the inability to spell correctly and use proper grammar. BE __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Bob, I'm sure there are a couple people on the list that benefit from your eBay authenticity posts, but maybe you could set that time aside for doing a little research as to where your 'Zulu Queen' meteorite really came from (if it really is Zulu Queen). No sense it in pointing out other people's authenticity issues if you can't back up your own. Still waiting for an answer (the truth). Kind regards, Mike Bandli -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Evans Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:47 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? I guess it amuses me when I get a response from some idiot selling junk as meteorites on ebay Case in Point : http://cgi.ebay.com/meteorites-and-collectables_W0QQitemZ110242519960QQihZ00 1QQcategoryZ3224QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Response to my inquiry regarding authenticity : Dear maccers531, your not going to like this but its intuition ive been studying them for awhile now and i know what im doing because also when i check certain areas i found stuff at i go back later and ive recovered what ever else new fell around they are planetary and ill probably be told no its not real but i know they are and if you do not like them send them back for a full refund and also the magnet the look the fusion lets talk - deazombie Duh ! Seems like all these people selling fakes one ebay share the inability to spell correctly and use proper grammar. BE __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Hi Mike and all, I too am curious about some of the rare meteorites I see advertised on ebay, and I look forward to reading something that demonstrates the authenticity on these historic piece beyond the somewhat unnerving statement that This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic or your money back !! Over the years I have acquired a sizable portion of a world-class collection among other special pieces and have above average knowledge of material distribution, and of course, a vested interest in preserving the reputation of the historic and valuable specimens. For example, some recent ebay offerings included Bialystok and Andover, two historic falls of extremely low distribution. Here are the auction links. http://cgi.ebay.com/Bialystok-Meteorite-Rare-Historic-Howardite-from-Poland_W0QQitemZ250229710427QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229710427 http://cgi.ebay.com/Andover-Maine-Meteorite-Witnessed-Fall_W0QQitemZ250229711253QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229711253 Representatives of both these localities are in my collection and I have written about them in my Accretion Desk articles. Here are some pictures: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/andover.jpg http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok.jpg http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok_number.jpg Although I have not chased down all the total weight of the pieces of Bailystok distributed over time, I have personally gone so far as to contact the Humboldt museum (the original source of my piece and its number) shed light on the distribution of this extremely rare and historic howardite. Therefore, the appearance of half a gram of Bailystok on ebay was somewhat extraordinary, only to be outdone by its low selling price. Andover is another matter. Its distribution is greater, but still few have comparison. At $425/g for an L6, I hope there is more than an Nininger quote to back up its provenience. Other thoughts? Martin On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Mike Bandli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bob, I'm sure there are a couple people on the list that benefit from your eBay authenticity posts, but maybe you could set that time aside for doing a little research as to where your 'Zulu Queen' meteorite really came from (if it really is Zulu Queen). No sense it in pointing out other people's authenticity issues if you can't back up your own. Still waiting for an answer (the truth). Kind regards, Mike Bandli -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Evans Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:47 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? I guess it amuses me when I get a response from some idiot selling junk as meteorites on ebay Case in Point : http://cgi.ebay.com/meteorites-and-collectables_W0QQitemZ110242519960QQihZ00 1QQcategoryZ3224QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Response to my inquiry regarding authenticity : Dear maccers531, your not going to like this but its intuition ive been studying them for awhile now and i know what im doing because also when i check certain areas i found stuff at i go back later and ive recovered what ever else new fell around they are planetary and ill probably be told no its not real but i know they are and if you do not like them send them back for a full refund and also the magnet the look the fusion lets talk - deazombie Duh ! Seems like all these people selling fakes one ebay share the inability to spell correctly and use proper grammar. BE __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
Martin, Mike and all, I think you bring out an important point. You mentioned that you contacted the Humboldt Museum to check on the provenance of a sample. I have also contacted various museums and dealers in other countries to check on the provenance of samples. A seller can provide a potential buyer with information regarding the origin of a specific sample, but unfortunately that doesn't necessarily carry any more weight than saying This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic. In the past, I have received very specific information about the provenance of a historic specimen only to find out that the information could not be verified by the party who reportedly supplied the specimen. Mark Grossman - Original Message - From: Dark Matter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mike Bandli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 11:31 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi Mike and all, I too am curious about some of the rare meteorites I see advertised on ebay, and I look forward to reading something that demonstrates the authenticity on these historic piece beyond the somewhat unnerving statement that This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic or your money back !! Over the years I have acquired a sizable portion of a world-class collection among other special pieces and have above average knowledge of material distribution, and of course, a vested interest in preserving the reputation of the historic and valuable specimens. For example, some recent ebay offerings included Bialystok and Andover, two historic falls of extremely low distribution. Here are the auction links. http://cgi.ebay.com/Bialystok-Meteorite-Rare-Historic-Howardite-from-Poland_W0QQitemZ250229710427QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229710427 http://cgi.ebay.com/Andover-Maine-Meteorite-Witnessed-Fall_W0QQitemZ250229711253QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229711253 Representatives of both these localities are in my collection and I have written about them in my Accretion Desk articles. Here are some pictures: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/andover.jpg http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok.jpg http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok_number.jpg Although I have not chased down all the total weight of the pieces of Bailystok distributed over time, I have personally gone so far as to contact the Humboldt museum (the original source of my piece and its number) shed light on the distribution of this extremely rare and historic howardite. Therefore, the appearance of half a gram of Bailystok on ebay was somewhat extraordinary, only to be outdone by its low selling price. Andover is another matter. Its distribution is greater, but still few have comparison. At $425/g for an L6, I hope there is more than an Nininger quote to back up its provenience. Other thoughts? Martin On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Mike Bandli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bob, I'm sure there are a couple people on the list that benefit from your eBay authenticity posts, but maybe you could set that time aside for doing a little research as to where your 'Zulu Queen' meteorite really came from (if it really is Zulu Queen). No sense it in pointing out other people's authenticity issues if you can't back up your own. Still waiting for an answer (the truth). Kind regards, Mike Bandli -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Evans Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:47 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? I guess it amuses me when I get a response from some idiot selling junk as meteorites on ebay Case in Point : http://cgi.ebay.com/meteorites-and-collectables_W0QQitemZ110242519960QQihZ00 1QQcategoryZ3224QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Response to my inquiry regarding authenticity : Dear maccers531, your not going to like this but its intuition ive been studying them for awhile now and i know what im doing because also when i check certain areas i found stuff at i go back later and ive recovered what ever else new fell around they are planetary and ill probably be told no its not real but i know they are and if you do not like them send them back for a full refund and also the magnet the look the fusion lets talk - deazombie Duh ! Seems like all these people selling fakes one ebay share the inability to spell correctly and use proper grammar. BE __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com
