Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Deaths? Interesting old article-read
Hi Sterling: The events quoted by you from John Lewis' book are open to interpretation. Similar interpretations give us: Ezekiel saw a flying saucer And, for those who like interpretations of the Bible and other writings: Joshua made the Earth stand still: This was due to the fact that Venus was a comet that was spun off(?) from Jupiter (do not remember if this was the source of the Great Red Spot) and flew by the Earth twice before becoming a new planet. My memory is a little hazy on this, but I think this is also the source of our oil. [I. Velikovsky] I think that it has been claimed that this was confirmed when we found out that Venus was hot, having been predicted by Velikovsky. Larry PS Sterling: Are you going to make me go back a reread the book to give you more specific references? Hi, Matt, List, On September 14, 1511, in Cremona in Lombardy, Italy, a monk, several birds, and a sheep were killed by meteorites. Sometime between 1647 and 1654, two sailors on a ship en route from Japan to Sicily, while in the Indian Ocean, were killed by meteorites. Sometime between 1633 and 1664, a monk in Milan was killed by a meteorite which severed his femoral artery, causing him to bleed to death. Chinese records of lethal impact events include the death of 10 victims from a meteorite fall in 616 AD, an iron rain in the O-chia district in the 14th century that killed people and animals, several soldiers injured by the fall of a large star in Ho-t'ao in 1369, and many others. The most startling is a report of an event in early 1490 in Ch'ing-yang, Shansi, in which many people were killed when stones fell like rain. Of the three known surviving reports of this event, one says that over 10,000 people were killed, and one says that several tens of thousands were killed. There is a discussion of these and many more such incidents in John S. Lewis, Rain of Iron and Ice, 1996. One could collect pages and pages of early accounts of meteorite falls and pages more of events that could well be meteoritic although those that wrote the accounts did not know of the idea that stones could fall from the sky. You could fill a book... and people have. A catalogue of meteorites is not a book of reported falls; it is a book of collected and curated falls. The oldest curated stone is NOGATA, which fell May 19, 861 AD. It hit a shrine and has been kept there ever since. The meteorite that hit a house in NARA (then the capital city of Japan) in 764 AD doesn't count because nobody has it safely curated. ...can they be substantiated? No more or less than the rest of history. They tell me Julius Caesar was assassinated. That's the story. Most agree that it happened. No one wrote to deny it. It's the story I always heard, so I believe it, like I do all the rest of history. But I wasn't there, I haven't checked the DNA on the dagger, I don't know where he was buried, I haven't read the autopsy report. I'm more than a carpet fiber away from proving the case... Three Chinese historical chronicles recount the huge meteorite fall and thousands of deaths in Ch'ing-yang, Shansi, in late February or early March of 1490. It's as much history as Caesar's assassination is, no more, no less. It's as substantiated as any history. There were no Ming Dynasty tabloid news stories. History-writing was politically sensitive and historians were occasionally executed for falsity, particularly about heavenly events. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: m...@mhmeteorites.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 3:18 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Deaths? Interesting old article-read A friend sent this link to me in regard to the Bear Creek meteorite. http://www.coloradohistoricnewspapers.org/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=Uk1ELzE4NjYvMDUvMTQjQXIwMDIwMA==Mode=GifLocale=english-skin-custom Near the end of the text it details the deaths of 3 monks and 2 Swedish sailors by meteorite impact! Has anyone heard of this? The passage reads: A few instances are on record of buildings being struck and set on fire and persons struck dead by the fall of aerolites. These Three monks were killed, one on the 4th September 1611, at Crema (?), another at Milan, in 1650, and a third in the same place in 1660. In 1674 two Swedish sailors on board ship were killed by the fall of one. Having never heard of this I searched the Catalog of Meteorites and came up blank. Has anyone heard of these falls and can they be substantiated? Matt Morgan __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Deaths? Interesting old article-read
The falls you mention seem to be concentrated around the era in the Western hemisphere loosely called 'the Dark Ages.' While I have no reason to doubt that the people involved died, possibly even by meteorite, I find it odd that so many fatalities happened within a relatively limited time span, and they were identified as 'death by meteorite'. It wasn't until the 17- or 1800s that scientists even believed that rocks could fall from the sky. I'd want more proof before I wrote up that CSI report! Best! Tracy Latimer From: sterling_k_w...@sbcglobal.net One could collect pages and pages of early accounts of meteorite falls and pages more of events that could well be meteoritic although those that wrote the accounts did not know of the idea that stones could fall from the sky. You could fill a book... and people have. _ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Deaths? Interesting old article-read
responsible? Examples of such references (good and bad): http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/icq/meteorites.html http://www.oberlin.edu/faculty/bsimonso/group9.htm http://www.sott.net/articles/show/151954-Meteorites-Asteroids-and-Comets-Damages-Disasters-Injuries-Deaths-and-Very-Close-Calls Another reference about historic damaging events is: Halliday, I., A.T. Blackwell, and A.A. Griffin. Meteorite Impacts on Humans and Buildings. Nature 318, 317, but I can't find a copy. There are a number of interesting-sounding papers by this team that bear on determining an accurate fall rate, but I can't get to any of them without bribing The Lords Who Own All Knowledge with exorbitant sums from my hoard of ancient gold coins... As the kid at Holbrook yelled, Maw! It's raining rocks! Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: lebof...@lpl.arizona.edu To: Sterling K. Webb sterling_k_w...@sbcglobal.net Cc: m...@mhmeteorites.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:02 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Deaths? Interesting old article-read Hi Sterling: The events quoted by you from John Lewis' book are open to interpretation. Similar interpretations give us: Ezekiel saw a flying saucer And, for those who like interpretations of the Bible and other writings: Joshua made the Earth stand still: This was due to the fact that Venus was a comet that was spun off(?) from Jupiter (do not remember if this was the source of the Great Red Spot) and flew by the Earth twice before becoming a new planet. My memory is a little hazy on this, but I think this is also the source of our oil. [I. Velikovsky] I think that it has been claimed that this was confirmed when we found out that Venus was hot, having been predicted by Velikovsky. Larry PS Sterling: Are you going to make me go back a reread the book to give you more specific references? Hi, Matt, List, On September 14, 1511, in Cremona in Lombardy, Italy, a monk, several birds, and a sheep were killed by meteorites. Sometime between 1647 and 1654, two sailors on a ship en route from Japan to Sicily, while in the Indian Ocean, were killed by meteorites. Sometime between 1633 and 1664, a monk in Milan was killed by a meteorite which severed his femoral artery, causing him to bleed to death. Chinese records of lethal impact events include the death of 10 victims from a meteorite fall in 616 AD, an iron rain in the O-chia district in the 14th century that killed people and animals, several soldiers injured by the fall of a large star in Ho-t'ao in 1369, and many others. The most startling is a report of an event in early 1490 in Ch'ing-yang, Shansi, in which many people were killed when stones fell like rain. Of the three known surviving reports of this event, one says that over 10,000 people were killed, and one says that several tens of thousands were killed. There is a discussion of these and many more such incidents in John S. Lewis, Rain of Iron and Ice, 1996. One could collect pages and pages of early accounts of meteorite falls and pages more of events that could well be meteoritic although those that wrote the accounts did not know of the idea that stones could fall from the sky. You could fill a book... and people have. A catalogue of meteorites is not a book of reported falls; it is a book of collected and curated falls. The oldest curated stone is NOGATA, which fell May 19, 861 AD. It hit a shrine and has been kept there ever since. The meteorite that hit a house in NARA (then the capital city of Japan) in 764 AD doesn't count because nobody has it safely curated. ...can they be substantiated? No more or less than the rest of history. They tell me Julius Caesar was assassinated. That's the story. Most agree that it happened. No one wrote to deny it. It's the story I always heard, so I believe it, like I do all the rest of history. But I wasn't there, I haven't checked the DNA on the dagger, I don't know where he was buried, I haven't read the autopsy report. I'm more than a carpet fiber away from proving the case... Three Chinese historical chronicles recount the huge meteorite fall and thousands of deaths in Ch'ing-yang, Shansi, in late February or early March of 1490. It's as much history as Caesar's assassination is, no more, no less. It's as substantiated as any history. There were no Ming Dynasty tabloid news stories. History-writing was politically sensitive and historians were occasionally executed for falsity, particularly about heavenly events. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: m...@mhmeteorites.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 3:18 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Deaths? Interesting old article-read A friend sent this link to me in regard to the Bear Creek
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Deaths? Interesting old article-read
Susan K. Webb wrote: Most of the bulk of my post involved the old Chinese recorded incidents. Lewis took those from the Yau, Weissman and Yeomans' paper: Yau, K., P. Weissman, and D. Yeomans, 1994, Meteorite Falls in China and Some Related Human Casualty Events. Meteoritics. vol. 29, pp. 864-871. http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1994Metic..29..864Y PDF file at: http://tiny.cc/ChineseFalls or http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1994Metic..29..864Yamp;data_type=PDF_HIGHamp;whole_paper=YESamp;type=PRINTERamp;filetype=.pdf Thank you for the citation and reference to the Chinese falls. It is a rather interesting and very useful paper. Webb also wrote; Paul's response suggests that field work could be profitable if the site could be located. That took me by surprise; I assumed too much time had passed. It's an exciting thought. I agree with you that this is a very interesting thought. It the case of the reported falls that involve just a few stones, it highly unlikely that much of anything could be found. However, in case of certain reported falls, in which it appears that thousands of pieces might have fell, I think even after a few hundred years, that there is a fair chance that there might still be meteorites that can be found. I suspect, if a person took into account what geoarchaeologists call site formation processes and used what is known about the geomorphology and geomorphologic history of the area, a good geomorphologist / geologist / geoarchaeology could make specific predictions as to where any meteorites from a fall eventually came to rest and where to best look for them. It is matter of using the enormous amount of knowledge already gathered about geomorphology, surficial landscape processes, and site formation processes to predict the best places to look for meteorites deposited from a possible fall. Of course after several hundred years, any meteorites found would likely be too weathered to be of any interest to collectors. However, I suspect that scientifically useful information can still be collected despite how badly weathered the specimens might be. Of course, any search for such reported falls would not be easy and there would be no guarantee of success. Looking at Yau et al. (1994), the reported 1490 fall, in my opinion, might be a promising candidate for a search for meteorites because of both the reported number of objects and the reported size, 1.0 to 1.5 kg, of individual pieces. Unfortunately, at this time, I cannot determine what the modern name for Ch'ing-yang, China and its exact location is at this time given the different and changing ways that Chinese names have been and are transliterated into English. Best Wishes, Paul H. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Deaths? Interesting old article-read
Hi, Matt, List, On September 14, 1511, in Cremona in Lombardy, Italy, a monk, several birds, and a sheep were killed by meteorites. Sometime between 1647 and 1654, two sailors on a ship en route from Japan to Sicily, while in the Indian Ocean, were killed by meteorites. Sometime between 1633 and 1664, a monk in Milan was killed by a meteorite which severed his femoral artery, causing him to bleed to death. Chinese records of lethal impact events include the death of 10 victims from a meteorite fall in 616 AD, an iron rain in the O-chia district in the 14th century that killed people and animals, several soldiers injured by the fall of a large star in Ho-t'ao in 1369, and many others. The most startling is a report of an event in early 1490 in Ch'ing-yang, Shansi, in which many people were killed when stones fell like rain. Of the three known surviving reports of this event, one says that over 10,000 people were killed, and one says that several tens of thousands were killed. There is a discussion of these and many more such incidents in John S. Lewis, Rain of Iron and Ice, 1996. One could collect pages and pages of early accounts of meteorite falls and pages more of events that could well be meteoritic although those that wrote the accounts did not know of the idea that stones could fall from the sky. You could fill a book... and people have. A catalogue of meteorites is not a book of reported falls; it is a book of collected and curated falls. The oldest curated stone is NOGATA, which fell May 19, 861 AD. It hit a shrine and has been kept there ever since. The meteorite that hit a house in NARA (then the capital city of Japan) in 764 AD doesn't count because nobody has it safely curated. ...can they be substantiated? No more or less than the rest of history. They tell me Julius Caesar was assassinated. That's the story. Most agree that it happened. No one wrote to deny it. It's the story I always heard, so I believe it, like I do all the rest of history. But I wasn't there, I haven't checked the DNA on the dagger, I don't know where he was buried, I haven't read the autopsy report. I'm more than a carpet fiber away from proving the case... Three Chinese historical chronicles recount the huge meteorite fall and thousands of deaths in Ch'ing-yang, Shansi, in late February or early March of 1490. It's as much history as Caesar's assassination is, no more, no less. It's as substantiated as any history. There were no Ming Dynasty tabloid news stories. History-writing was politically sensitive and historians were occasionally executed for falsity, particularly about heavenly events. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: m...@mhmeteorites.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 3:18 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Deaths? Interesting old article-read A friend sent this link to me in regard to the Bear Creek meteorite. http://www.coloradohistoricnewspapers.org/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=Uk1ELzE4NjYvMDUvMTQjQXIwMDIwMA==Mode=GifLocale=english-skin-custom Near the end of the text it details the deaths of 3 monks and 2 Swedish sailors by meteorite impact! Has anyone heard of this? The passage reads: A few instances are on record of buildings being struck and set on fire and persons struck dead by the fall of aerolites. These Three monks were killed, one on the 4th September 1611, at Crema (?), another at Milan, in 1650, and a third in the same place in 1660. In 1674 two Swedish sailors on board ship were killed by the fall of one. Having never heard of this I searched the Catalog of Meteorites and came up blank. Has anyone heard of these falls and can they be substantiated? Matt Morgan __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
