Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter
John, I have several emails from various peoples in Africa and elsewhere wanting my US bank account number. For this they generously promise millions of dollars. But, I can't take unfair advantage of these good people. Perhaps we could forward their emails to Mrs. Cheung. She could trade her meteorite from Jupiter for millions in her bank account! And everyone gets what they deserve.;>} Best, Ken John Gwilliam wrote: > > Hello List, > In this morning's mail, I received an unusual letter from a Mrs. Cheung in > Alamo, California. The letter says they are contacting me (the recipient > of the letter) for a friend who wants some help selling some meteorites in > her possession. It goes on to say that some of the stones have already > been identified as meteorites by the Bishop Museum in Honolulu. > > They list five different samples that have been identified by the museum > and they list densities for the specimens but no weights. > > Here is the interesting information in the letter. > > " In addition to the samples she has given us some photographs of the > meteorites. During a conversation with her, one of the meteorites was > identified as coming from the planet Jupiter." > > Imagine that, a meteorite from Jupiter! > > If anyone wants to pursue this, let me know and I'll give you the contact > information;-) > > Best, > > John Gwilliam > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter
Hi John and all, I'll trade her my specimen from Neptune (yes, I do have a sample from Neptune ;-) for an equal amount of weight of her specimen from Jupiter. Waiting for someone to bite on this. --AL __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter
Al, Would that be Neptune Mountains from Antarctica? An Og IAB found in 1964. Nice try. Watch out or Jim Strope will offering something from Uranus again. John...the Park Forest meteorite from Venus guy (April Fool's to those who forgot or were not around...see 4/1/03 for archives) > Hi John and all, > > I'll trade her my specimen from Neptune (yes, I do have a sample from Neptune > ;-) for > an equal amount of weight of her specimen from Jupiter. Waiting for someone to > bite on > this. > > --AL > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter
Hello List, Mr. McCulloch the founder of Lake Havasu, AZ will buy the Jupiter meteorite After all when London England told him they had a bridge for sale, he bought it!!! : ) Thanks, Tom Peregrineflier <>< The proudest member of the IMCA 6168 - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: almitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: John Gwilliam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter > Al, > > Would that be Neptune Mountains from Antarctica? An Og IAB found in 1964. > Nice try. Watch out or Jim Strope will offering something from Uranus again. > > > John...the Park Forest meteorite from Venus guy (April Fool's to those who > forgot or were not around...see 4/1/03 for archives) > > > Hi John and all, > > > > I'll trade her my specimen from Neptune (yes, I do have a sample from Neptune > > ;-) for > > an equal amount of weight of her specimen from Jupiter. Waiting for someone to > > bite on > > this. > > > > --AL > > > > > > __ > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter
Well, what do you know. I received a letter from the same Mrs. Rosetta Cheung regarding these "meteorites" from the planet Jupiter. A gas giant planet? Amazing. Steve Schoner/ams --- John Gwilliam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello List, > In this morning's mail, I received an unusual letter > from a Mrs. Cheung in > Alamo, California. The letter says they are > contacting me (the recipient > of the letter) for a friend who wants some help > selling some meteorites in > her possession. It goes on to say that some of the > stones have already > been identified as meteorites by the Bishop Museum > in Honolulu. > > They list five different samples that have been > identified by the museum > and they list densities for the specimens but no > weights. > > Here is the interesting information in the letter. > > " In addition to the samples she has given us some > photographs of the > meteorites. During a conversation with her, one of > the meteorites was > identified as coming from the planet Jupiter." > > Imagine that, a meteorite from Jupiter! > > If anyone wants to pursue this, let me know and I'll > give you the contact > information;-) > > > Best, > > John Gwilliam > > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter
Would this gaseous meteorite from Jupiter be a new Clan? Inquiring minds want to know!! Dave > Well, what do you know. > > I received a letter from the same Mrs. Rosetta Cheung > regarding these "meteorites" from the planet Jupiter. > > A gas giant planet? > > Amazing. > > Steve Schoner/ams > > > --- John Gwilliam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hello List, > > In this morning's mail, I received an unusual letter > > from a Mrs. Cheung in > > Alamo, California. The letter says they are > > contacting me (the recipient > > of the letter) for a friend who wants some help > > selling some meteorites in > > her possession. It goes on to say that some of the > > stones have already > > been identified as meteorites by the Bishop Museum > > in Honolulu. > > > > They list five different samples that have been > > identified by the museum > > and they list densities for the specimens but no > > weights. > > > > Here is the interesting information in the letter. > > > > " In addition to the samples she has given us some > > photographs of the > > meteorites. During a conversation with her, one of > > the meteorites was > > identified as coming from the planet Jupiter." > > > > Imagine that, a meteorite from Jupiter! > > > > If anyone wants to pursue this, let me know and I'll > > give you the contact > > information;-) > > > > > > Best, > > > > John Gwilliam > > > > > > > > __ > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter
In a message dated 9/22/2003 8:16:06 PM Mountain Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'll trade her my specimen from Neptune (yes, I do have a sample from Neptune ;-) for an equal amount of weight of her specimen from Jupiter. Waiting for someone to bite on this. What I am really waiting for is a picture of that Jupiter meteorite. If it was a 'right, what would it look like? a vapor, a puff of smoke? :-) Anne M. Black www. IMPACTIKA.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] IMCA #2356
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter
The Jupiter meteorite is undoubtedly close kin to the 'ghost in a jar' that was recently offered for sale on ebay; i.e., a fictional fut. If she lived in CA, why on earth did she have these rocks 'authenticated' by a museum in Hawaii, and one that doesn't have a resident specialist in meteorites? Shoots, as far as I know, they don't even have a piece of the Honolulu meteorite! John, maybe as a professional courtesy, you should forward her letter to Bishop Museum and let them yell at her, if needed. Was it a real paper letter, or a spam-like e-mail? Did she mention a name for her 'expert'? If you want/need an address, I'll scare it up for you. Tracy Latimer From: John Gwilliam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:05:19 -0700 Hello List, In this morning's mail, I received an unusual letter from a Mrs. Cheung in Alamo, California. The letter says they are contacting me (the recipient of the letter) for a friend who wants some help selling some meteorites in her possession. It goes on to say that some of the stones have already been identified as meteorites by the Bishop Museum in Honolulu. They list five different samples that have been identified by the museum and they list densities for the specimens but no weights. Here is the interesting information in the letter. " In addition to the samples she has given us some photographs of the meteorites. During a conversation with her, one of the meteorites was identified as coming from the planet Jupiter." Imagine that, a meteorite from Jupiter! If anyone wants to pursue this, let me know and I'll give you the contact information;-) Best, John Gwilliam __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ Share your photos without swamping your Inbox. Get Hotmail Extra Storage today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter
Aha! The old "Meteorite from Jupiter" scam. You buy a precious piece of the Great Gas Giant. It arrives in a chilled container. You put it in your display case. The next morning, it's gone! All evaporated! Another sucker has fallen for the Vanishing Hydrogen Racket! The Jovians have another good laugh at the expense of the Foolish Earthlings! Sterling - John Gwilliam wrote: > Hello List, > In this morning's mail, I received an unusual letter from a Mrs. Cheung in > Alamo, California. The letter says they are contacting me (the recipient > of the letter) for a friend who wants some help selling some meteorites in > her possession. It goes on to say that some of the stones have already > been identified as meteorites by the Bishop Museum in Honolulu. > > They list five different samples that have been identified by the museum > and they list densities for the specimens but no weights. > > Here is the interesting information in the letter. > > " In addition to the samples she has given us some photographs of the > meteorites. During a conversation with her, one of the meteorites was > identified as coming from the planet Jupiter." > > Imagine that, a meteorite from Jupiter! > > If anyone wants to pursue this, let me know and I'll give you the contact > information;-) > > Best, > > John Gwilliam > __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter
I got one of these too, What blows me away is it costs this dip s 37c to mail each of these letters - what does she think? That meteorite dealers just fell off the turnip truck? Weird. Michael __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter
Michael and List, After hearing that several of our list members received the same letter, I'm convinced that this is another case of pure ignorance and nothing more. If it is a scam, these folks didn't do their homework well enough to find out that meteorites from Jupiter don't exist. One of our intrepid list members lives quite close to the senders of this letter and I have given him their contact information. After he has visited with Mrs. Cheung, he'll report his experience to the list. Best, John At 12:24 AM 9/23/03 -0700, Michael L Blood wrote: I got one of these too, What blows me away is it costs this dip s 37c to mail each of these letters - what does she think? That meteorite dealers just fell off the turnip truck? Weird. Michael __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter
Hello all, I visited Alamo today to view the so called Jupiter meteorite and others so proclaimed. When i arrived at the door i was greeted by an older woman and her Tahitian husband. They escorted me back to their office where i sat down. I was told that they were just trying to help out a friend who at this time was in France receiving treatment for cancer due to their socialized medicine. She said thankfully she is in remission. I was equipped with all the necessary equipment for any possible detection of any suspected meteorite along with some nice examples of real meteorites. I brought along a whole fresh fusion crusted whole stone of a fall i recently picked up in Mexico a slice of Esquell and a Sikhote alin to educate them on the main group of meteorites. I also brought along some written info on the planet Jupiter to give to her friend and explained to them why these rocks could not be from there. They were very receptive and learned quite alot. I started vieving the sample rocks she was given and asked her where her friend had found them. She was reluctant at first not saying much as her friend did not want the location known. There were about 10 different samples. As i started unwrapping each specimen, it became evident this rocks were different volcanic basalts and glasses and mantle xenoliths. I explained to them what kind of rocks these were and they seemed relieved they now knew the answers and that this was over. They could now wraps these up and send them back to her friend with an explanation as to what they were. They had done all they could to help out their friend. They then told me that she brought them back from Tahiti and took them to the Bishop Museum in Hawaii. Why they could not identify them as being pieces of Volcanic material being from the islands is beyond me. She then told me the story of how she believed she was being followed back to her room. I was told later her room was broken in to. Now she is believing she has something valuable. They continued on for about an hour telling stories about Tahiti and giving me their business card and some very useful info on travel there along with a name of a close friend whos a pilot who can island hop me around. Apon leaving i was given some Tahitian rocks and shells along with a set of large shark jaws. Obviously there was no scam involved here, just a lack of knowledge of 2 older people just trying to help out a friend. These were 2 of the nicest people i have ever met and it was a pleasure seeing the relief on their faces knowing the truth. Bob C. - Original Message - From: "John Gwilliam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 12:05 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter > Hello List, > In this morning's mail, I received an unusual letter from a Mrs. Cheung in > Alamo, California. The letter says they are contacting me (the recipient > of the letter) for a friend who wants some help selling some meteorites in > her possession. It goes on to say that some of the stones have already > been identified as meteorites by the Bishop Museum in Honolulu. > > They list five different samples that have been identified by the museum > and they list densities for the specimens but no weights. > > Here is the interesting information in the letter. > > " In addition to the samples she has given us some photographs of the > meteorites. During a conversation with her, one of the meteorites was > identified as coming from the planet Jupiter." > > Imagine that, a meteorite from Jupiter! > > If anyone wants to pursue this, let me know and I'll give you the contact > information;-) > > > Best, > > John Gwilliam > > > > __ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
RE: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter
>>The green and gold flecked charcoal-colored stone was too hot to
handle, he said. So he let it cool, then stored it in a drawer.>>
Hmmm Case closed I'd say ..
Best,
Mark Ford
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darren
Garrison
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 7:03 AM
To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter
There's a photo on the page, but it is poorly focused.
http://www.tcpalm.com/tcp/local_news/article/0,2545,TCP_16736_4788540,00
.html
Jupiter resident looking to prove chunk of stone a meteorite
By MICHELLE SHELDONE
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
June 21, 2006
Bob Walshon got "stoned."
And he hopes experts can identify the rock he says fell from the heavens
and
struck his shoulder.
Advertisement
"I came for the fishing," quipped the 51-year-old Jupiter health care
consultant
Monday, recalling why he had moved to the area. "I thought I'd be
getting hit by
a bunch of dolphin."
But Walshon's neighbor, Mike Pollutro, is so certain the rock is a
meteorite
that he's e-mailed specialists to confirm it.
"I've looked at thousands and thousands, and I've never seen one that
comes
close to what Bob has," said Pollutro, a World Airways pilot and
meteorite
collector.
The rock socked Walshon six years ago as he was checking out weeds in
front of
his home in Holly Cove subdivision, in north Jupiter.
He spun around and yelled, "Who did that?" Walshon recalled.
But no one was there.
The green and gold flecked charcoal-colored stone was too hot to handle,
he
said. So he let it cool, then stored it in a drawer.
This past Memorial Day, Walshon spotted Pollutro, 44, polishing a
172-pound
meteorite he purchased on e-bay. Pollutro told Walshon that Spaniards in
1570s
Argentina discovered his rock in an area known as Campo del Cielo
("field of the
heaven or sky.")
Meteorites are fragments of planetary bodies that travel 4.5 billion
years
before colliding with Earth, according to David A. Kring, associate
professor of
Cosmochemistry and Planetary Geology in the University of Arizona's
Lunar and
Planetary Laboratory. They come from asteroids, though some are
confirmed to
have lunar origins. Researchers suspect others might be from Mars, Kring
writes.
People worldwide each year find what they believe to be meteorites,
according to
Kring.
The spacey stones are comprised of different minerals, and Walshon's
local find
made a metal detector twitter. Pollutro, meanwhile, "beamed the story to
a bunch
of people" and is hoping researchers can help determine the rock's
origins.
Area residents bring about one each year to the West Palm Beach-based
South
Florida Science Museum for testing, spokeswoman Elizabeth Dashiell said.
"I'm
sure (some meteorites in this area) have been confirmed," Dashiell said.
"But I
personally have no experience."
Meteorites typically are named based on the latitude-longitude locations
where
they're found, Pollutro said.
So that no one assumes Walshon's local discovery rained from the planet
of the
same name, Pollutro pointedly refers to it as the "Jupiter, Fla."
meteorite.
ABOUT METEORITES
* Despite myths, meteorites do not glow and are generally no more
radioactive
than pea rock or coral.
* Meteorites are either stony and slightly heavier than typical rocks of
the
same size, or they are metallic and much heavier.
* Those that are metallic ring like a bell when struck with a metallic
object.
* Recently-fallen meteorites feature glassy, smooth coatings.
* Those that are older and weathered appear blanketed in dark brown.
* Most, but not all, are magnetic.
Source: Meteoritical Society
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RE: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter
>>The green and gold flecked charcoal-colored stone was too hot to handle, he said. So he let it cool, then stored it in a drawer.>> Hmmm Case closed I'd say .. i wouldbnt be so quick to judge based on this fact alone. the pic of the stone shows a very tiny specimin, maybe 50g tops. the smaller the rock the higher the surface area to weight ratio, meaning there is less cold soaked mass to absorb the heat of ablation. while i would easily belive a 5 ton iron would land cold (even freezing) to the touch, i would similarly belive a tiny stone could get warm to the touch. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter
Agreed, this fact alone isn't enough to completely close the case. But nearly so. Most of the heat of ablation is carried away from the meteoroid. A tiny stone will most likely have fragmented from a much larger one, and will have only undergone ablation for a fraction of a second (otherwise it would burn up completely). There simply isn't time to pump much heat into the interior. On the other hand, the small stone, with its high surface area to volume ratio, is subject to significant convective cooling during the several minutes it is falling through -40°C air at ~100 m/s. I think it is highly unlikely that such a small stone would arrive at the ground with a temperature significantly different from ambient, and most likely a bit below. Convective coupling is usually going to be a more significant factor in determining meteorite temperature than ablative heating (treating both as differentials from the original temperature of the object in space). Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: "stan ." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 10:38 AM Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter Hmmm Case closed I'd say .. i wouldbnt be so quick to judge based on this fact alone. the pic of the stone shows a very tiny specimin, maybe 50g tops. the smaller the rock the higher the surface area to weight ratio, meaning there is less cold soaked mass to absorb the heat of ablation. while i would easily belive a 5 ton iron would land cold (even freezing) to the touch, i would similarly belive a tiny stone could get warm to the touch. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter
On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:57:19 -0600, you wrote: >Agreed, this fact alone isn't enough to completely close the case. But >nearly so. There is also another option-- maybe the guy is embellishing the story for the press. Because everyone knows meteorites are hot when they hit the ground! So it could be 1) meteorwrong 2) meteorite with embellished/misremembered details 3.) guy sees neighbor with Ebay meteorite, buys his own Ebay meteorite, makes up story for fame and fortune (anybody sell to a Bob Walshon of Jupiter FL?) __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter
Here's an attempt to show a little more detail of the rock: http://webpages.charter.net/garrison6328/image1.jpg __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter
falling through -40°C air at ~100 m/s. ...striking the finder on his shoulder with only enough energy to entice a mere "Who's there?!" out of him. Not hard enough to require even one expletive to delete. My question is this: Can a meteor that is travelling with enough velocity to get a nice, black fusion crust, and with the dimensions indicated by the article's picture, be slowed enough by any other possible influence (strong cross winds, strong updrafts, striking several songbirds on the way down) that it wouldn't go through human flesh, instead of just bumping [him]? If the meteorite hit the roof of the house he was near, or branches of a tree he might be near, one would think there would be some sound accompanying his story. Cheers, Pete From: "Chris Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:57:19 -0600 Agreed, this fact alone isn't enough to completely close the case. But nearly so. Most of the heat of ablation is carried away from the meteoroid. A tiny stone will most likely have fragmented from a much larger one, and will have only undergone ablation for a fraction of a second (otherwise it would burn up completely). There simply isn't time to pump much heat into the interior. On the other hand, the small stone, with its high surface area to volume ratio, is subject to significant convective cooling during the several minutes it is falling through -40°C air at ~100 m/s. I think it is highly unlikely that such a small stone would arrive at the ground with a temperature significantly different from ambient, and most likely a bit below. Convective coupling is usually going to be a more significant factor in determining meteorite temperature than ablative heating (treating both as differentials from the original temperature of the object in space). Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: "stan ." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 10:38 AM Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter Hmmm Case closed I'd say .. i wouldbnt be so quick to judge based on this fact alone. the pic of the stone shows a very tiny specimin, maybe 50g tops. the smaller the rock the higher the surface area to weight ratio, meaning there is less cold soaked mass to absorb the heat of ablation. while i would easily belive a 5 ton iron would land cold (even freezing) to the touch, i would similarly belive a tiny stone could get warm to the touch. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter
A small meteorite acquires its fusion crust in the fraction of a second after a larger parent body fragments at high altitude. It almost immediately loses any forward speed, and simply falls at terminal velocity. For a spherical 50g stone that is about 50 m/s. That's in the same range as a paintball pellet. A 30cm diameter stone is going to smart, but isn't going to go through flesh, or probably result in anything more than a nasty bruise. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: "Pete Pete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter My question is this: Can a meteor that is travelling with enough velocity to get a nice, black fusion crust, and with the dimensions indicated by the article's picture, be slowed enough by any other possible influence (strong cross winds, strong updrafts, striking several songbirds on the way down) that it wouldn't go through human flesh, instead of just bumping [him]? If the meteorite hit the roof of the house he was near, or branches of a tree he might be near, one would think there would be some sound accompanying his story. Cheers, Pete __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter
hmmm...lets do some math an LL stone is about 3.21 grams per cm cubed...that works out to about 1 pound for just a 1 cm slice of your 30 cm meteorite, is that not correct? And anything moving at 50 m/s weighing a pound can sure crush a skull if I'm not mistaken. A 50 gram stone might only bruise, but a 30 cm stone can kill. Just get on your house roof with a 1 pound piece of rock and wait for the little yappy dog from next door to come walking by and see for yourself. Mark Ferguson who uses Kentucky windage - Original Message - From: "Chris Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter A small meteorite acquires its fusion crust in the fraction of a second after a larger parent body fragments at high altitude. It almost immediately loses any forward speed, and simply falls at terminal velocity. For a spherical 50g stone that is about 50 m/s. That's in the same range as a paintball pellet. A 30cm diameter stone is going to smart, but isn't going to go through flesh, or probably result in anything more than a nasty bruise. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: "Pete Pete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter My question is this: Can a meteor that is travelling with enough velocity to get a nice, black fusion crust, and with the dimensions indicated by the article's picture, be slowed enough by any other possible influence (strong cross winds, strong updrafts, striking several songbirds on the way down) that it wouldn't go through human flesh, instead of just bumping [him]? If the meteorite hit the roof of the house he was near, or branches of a tree he might be near, one would think there would be some sound accompanying his story. Cheers, Pete __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter
Sorry, that should have been 30 mm, not cm. It was previously suggested that the stone in question probably massed 50 g, which means about a 30 mm diameter. No doubt, you don't want to get hit by a 30 cm stone falling at 50-100 m/s! Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: "Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Chris Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "meteoritelist" Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter hmmm...lets do some math an LL stone is about 3.21 grams per cm cubed...that works out to about 1 pound for just a 1 cm slice of your 30 cm meteorite, is that not correct? And anything moving at 50 m/s weighing a pound can sure crush a skull if I'm not mistaken. A 50 gram stone might only bruise, but a 30 cm stone can kill. Just get on your house roof with a 1 pound piece of rock and wait for the little yappy dog from next door to come walking by and see for yourself. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter
oh yeah! big difference! not a problem though...interesting guesstimating what it would be like.I think I'll try the rock on yappy dog experiment though...regular dogs are ok, but across the street there's this... - Original Message - From: "Chris Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "meteoritelist" Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 9:31 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter Sorry, that should have been 30 mm, not cm. It was previously suggested that the stone in question probably massed 50 g, which means about a 30 mm diameter. No doubt, you don't want to get hit by a 30 cm stone falling at 50-100 m/s! Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: "Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Chris Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "meteoritelist" Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter hmmm...lets do some math an LL stone is about 3.21 grams per cm cubed...that works out to about 1 pound for just a 1 cm slice of your 30 cm meteorite, is that not correct? And anything moving at 50 m/s weighing a pound can sure crush a skull if I'm not mistaken. A 50 gram stone might only bruise, but a 30 cm stone can kill. Just get on your house roof with a 1 pound piece of rock and wait for the little yappy dog from next door to come walking by and see for yourself. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter
Hi, On the subject of small stones hitting people and houses). Consider WETHERSFIELD (Connecticut), a small town of 26,271 people (2000 census). On April 8, 1971, a small energetic stone penetrated a home, zinged around inside, and came to rest without hitting anybody. It was sufficiently energetic to penetrate a sound roof, 2nd floor ceiling, 2nd floor/ceiling to living room, and bounce off several surfaces, damaging them, before stopping. Obviously, it could have caused considerable damage to an unprotected human, like the Garza stone in PARK FOREST (Illinois) could have done. Ok, ok, this sort of thing happens, even in Wethersfield. Almost worth the brief attention you get. I can imagine calling your insurance agent, "You want to report -- what? ASTEROID damage?!" Then, on November 8, 1982, a small energetic stone penetrated ANOTHER home in Wethersfield in the SAME neighborhood, zinged around inside, and came to rest without hitting anybody, about an half a mile away from the first home! Both stones were both L6's, of similar compositions (but different exposure ages). Coincidence or leprachauns? Historically, there are a great number of accounts, many of hits directly on human beings, besides the poor Alabama lady, who only got a really colorful and painful bruise after the meteorite holed the house!. A Swedish man was struck by a meteorite in the arm. The arm was so damaged that it had to be amputated! The (preserved) arm, by the way, is buried with him, but nobody knows what became of the stone. This case occurred in the nineteenth century but was unknown outside of Sweden until this century, and was investigated by Sky & Telescope magazine, but I can't find the year... On the other hand, consider The NOBLESVILLE (Indiana) stone that is the classic close approach fall case, perfect in every detail: "The stone passed two witnesses, Brodie Spaulding and Brian Kinzie, who observed it land 3.56m in front of them on the lawn in front of a house. No light or sound except for the whirring sound as it passed and the thud in the ground was noticed. It is an oriented specimen with well-developed flight markings, weight 483.7g." Just after dusk on a perfect midwestern summer night, two boys are standing talking in the front yard in the new hush of evening, when... Whirrr. Thud. According to the report, this 1 pound plus stone didn't even dent the soft soil. Obviously, it would NOT have taken the arm off of one of the two hapless teenagers if it had struck them, whereas the damage to the Swedish man was reported to be as if he had been struck by a small cannon shot or several close musket shots. The velocity, hence energy, of a small stone varies considerably. The Noblesville report of whirring indicates that the stone was in rapid rotary motion, interacting aerodynamically, and was engaged in a kind of "flight" or glide that retarded it. Every small fall is different. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter
It is certainly possible to devise entry scenarios where meteorites have unusually large velocities. But I'd maintain these are rare cases, and a fall such as I described (and the Noblesville) would be far more common. And even in the case of the two Wethersfield falls, I'm not sure we can conclude that the velocities were all that high. My reference for the 1971 fall says nothing about the meteorite "zinging around", only that it penetrated the roof and partially penetrated the plaster ceiling. Not unreasonable for a 350 g stone at terminal velocity. It was the 1982 fall that bounced around inside, and that was 2750 g- obviously a lot higher KE even at a normal terminal velocity. And in the 19th century, people had their arms (or worse) amputated sometimes for the most trivial of injuries, so I'm not sure what we can conclude about that meteorite, either. BTW, the 2004 Berthoud (Colorado) fall (960 g) was another whirrr, thud event. It made a little dent in the ground, and might have been capable of breaking an arm. A trivial injury today, but not necessarily 150 years ago. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: "Sterling K. Webb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Meteorite List" Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 10:31 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter Hi, On the subject of small stones hitting people and houses). Consider WETHERSFIELD (Connecticut), a small town of 26,271 people (2000 census). On April 8, 1971, a small energetic stone penetrated a home, zinged around inside, and came to rest without hitting anybody. It was sufficiently energetic to penetrate a sound roof, 2nd floor ceiling, 2nd floor/ceiling to living room, and bounce off several surfaces, damaging them, before stopping. Obviously, it could have caused considerable damage to an unprotected human, like the Garza stone in PARK FOREST (Illinois) could have done. Ok, ok, this sort of thing happens, even in Wethersfield. Almost worth the brief attention you get. I can imagine calling your insurance agent, "You want to report -- what? ASTEROID damage?!" Then, on November 8, 1982, a small energetic stone penetrated ANOTHER home in Wethersfield in the SAME neighborhood, zinged around inside, and came to rest without hitting anybody, about an half a mile away from the first home! Both stones were both L6's, of similar compositions (but different exposure ages). Coincidence or leprachauns? Historically, there are a great number of accounts, many of hits directly on human beings, besides the poor Alabama lady, who only got a really colorful and painful bruise after the meteorite holed the house!. A Swedish man was struck by a meteorite in the arm. The arm was so damaged that it had to be amputated! The (preserved) arm, by the way, is buried with him, but nobody knows what became of the stone. This case occurred in the nineteenth century but was unknown outside of Sweden until this century, and was investigated by Sky & Telescope magazine, but I can't find the year... On the other hand, consider The NOBLESVILLE (Indiana) stone that is the classic close approach fall case, perfect in every detail: "The stone passed two witnesses, Brodie Spaulding and Brian Kinzie, who observed it land 3.56m in front of them on the lawn in front of a house. No light or sound except for the whirring sound as it passed and the thud in the ground was noticed. It is an oriented specimen with well-developed flight markings, weight 483.7g." Just after dusk on a perfect midwestern summer night, two boys are standing talking in the front yard in the new hush of evening, when... Whirrr. Thud. According to the report, this 1 pound plus stone didn't even dent the soft soil. Obviously, it would NOT have taken the arm off of one of the two hapless teenagers if it had struck them, whereas the damage to the Swedish man was reported to be as if he had been struck by a small cannon shot or several close musket shots. The velocity, hence energy, of a small stone varies considerably. The Noblesville report of whirring indicates that the stone was in rapid rotary motion, interacting aerodynamically, and was engaged in a kind of "flight" or glide that retarded it. Every small fall is different. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter
Chris wrote: <> Hola Chris and Sterling, You guys need to attach more numbers to these arguments imo with sensitivity analysis. Concretely, that meteorite in Darren's picture-considering its shape-would be going about 47m/s (105mph), and not less than 40 m/s (89mph) and not more than 60 m/s (134 mph). The worst case is the energy of a fast ball in the company baseball league, though likelyhood is half that. There are lots of ways to throw a fastball and bruise a grandma or loosen old plaster that your fingers can push through anyway. _http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2004-March/139871.html_ (http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2004-March/139871.html) FYI here is a thread I posted to in Mar of 2004 on the subject of speeds of falling meteorites. I don't think there is all that much uncertainty to the practical endpoints of how fast they can hit as terminal velocity is reached easily in virtually all these cases, (the latter which Chris has mentioned). I wouldn't hesitate to catch a baseball sized meteorite in the pocket of a baseball mit, though I am sure that that same falling rock would easily break someone's arm. People can karate chop wood in half with bare hands and the plaster of old homes can really be falling apart, how many of us have put our hands through the wall on ocassion, so I don't see anything odd with the results. People who get punched get bruised all the time, heck, some people get bruises on their butts from just sitting down. Once the misconception is overcome that meteorites have retained cosmic velocity it just becomes a question on how big the rock is and what it hits. An ordinary tale of sticks and stones and bones. I was carrying an iron in the back of my pickup and driving like a demon a while back. Didn't see a dip in the road and there was a rock in the back of my truck. When the truck was back on all fours again, the rock was still at zero g, and now I have this great crater to show for it. They just don't make the tinbed pickups like they used to... Here's the calculations if you want to go through them. A bowling ball sized chondrite (11.25cm radius) weighs less than 23 kg and falls at about 291 mph (130 m/s) (see prior post link provided above). The terminal velocity varies by the sqrt(mass)/sqrt(x-sectional area). So for the same material in a sphere mass increases with r^3 but cross sectional area with r^2. The dependence reduces to simply velocity being proportional to the square root of the radius. Thus a 50 gram sphere = 13.7 cc, r=1.49 cm can fall at 36% of the bowling ball which gives the 47 m/s ball park you're all in. In that email I also checked the practical limits by flattening it to a shield(3.3):(3.3):1 and orienting it in a 3:1 length:diameter ratio and found that the terminal velocity range was 90-130-211 (m/s), in other words 69%(shield):100%(sphere):162%(oriented). That's a range of 1:2.35 from slowest to fastest. Without messing with the radicals since it is late, if we apply the same factors to the 50 gram piece, we see the speed range to hit the guy who though he was going fishing is 32.5 m/s (the speed of a typical baseball fastball but only 30% the energy) on the low end and 76 m/s (a major league record fastball's energy) on the fast end. The energy difference is a theoretical factor of 5 (76/32.5)^2. But those are the real extremes. If we assume they are representing a couple of sigma deviation, everything like the one in Darren's picture is in the 40 to 60 m/s range to bracket the 47 m/s. with reasonably a double whammy packed in the fastest ones vs. slowest in this range. Even after taking into consideration reasonable altitudes (Colorado has a somewhat thinner atmosphere causing the retention of a bit higher terminal velocity...for example, than say New Orleans, and that 10 mph seabreeze, the meteorite that hit that guy would have had a bit less than the energy of a company baseball league fastball's energy. And if it hits old plaster will break some loose, and if it hits granny can break a bone and definitely give a black and blue mark. But if it hits Steve, the Jensens or several other burly collectors out there on the shoulder blade it might actually feel good even before they knew what hit them. Saludos, Doug __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter
Chris, You do the medical profession of the XIXth century a great disservice, particularly from the period following the Napoleonic Wars which, for a complex set of reasons I won't reiterate here, transformed medicine from medieval scholasticism to true science. Many people assume that because physicians had so many fewer tools to utilize than today's doctors, they were made poorer doctors for it. On the contrary, many were forced to be better. In the particular matter of amputation, warfare, especially with artillery, had made this a particularly well understood therapeutic problem. It is true that amputation was more commonly performed in the XIXth century, but that is due to untreatable infections that threatened the life of the patient. The conditions which required it were also well understood, what degree of sepsis and so forth. I did not elaborate on the details of the Swedish injury, but the humerus was shattered, with many large fragments and a wealth of bone splinters. Bone possesses a remarkable ability for reconstruction if the many pieces can be kept aggregated in approximately the correct position, but additionally, the muscles which would have maintained the positioning of the bone while knitting, were shredded to an unrecon- structible degree, and all the intervening vascular tissue was hopelessly damaged or missing. There would have been no blood supply to the injured area nor the remainder of the limb. Amputation was the medically correct treatment, and might still be the preferred, and preferable, treatment today. It is just barely possible that now, with a collection of specialists, a major surgical center, and 22 hours in the O.R., bone support implants, grafting the patient's saphenous veins into the arm and some vascular shunts too, mesh re-growth sheaths for the muscles, a mountain of antibiotics, and $300,000, this arm might have been saved. There would almost certainly have been no nerve function distal to the injury site and little function to the limb of any kind. A totally disfuntional limb also poses on-going risks of serious complications. Lifelong massage and circulatory therapy, and likely electro- myographic stimulation would be required. I think you're seen too many Western movies where "Doc" is a hopeless drunk with a five-day beard, sitting all day in the saloon, in a dusty cowtown, and treats all illnesses with paragoric and all injuries by pouring whiskey over them. A cliche that may have had a few actual antecedents, but an entertainment industry and dime novel cliche just the same; not reality. Of course, not every XIXth century doctor was a Lister, Pasteur, Koch, Ehrlich, Carrel, but I doubt that there were any more bad doctors then than now (not that there aren't a certain number of sub-standard practioners in any era). In fact, it would be harder, in those therapy-poor eras, to hide being a bad doctor. Folks will tend to notice if most of your patients die... Nowadays, if you don't improve, you just go to another doctor until you find one that gets the job done. I'm on my sixth cardiologist, but he's a keeper. Not to belabor the point unnecessarily (probably already have), but I think you're being glib and dismisive on the basis of crude generalities that have little to do with reality. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "Chris Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Meteorite List" Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter And in the 19th century, people had their arms (or worse) amputated sometimes for the most trivial of injuries, so I'm not sure what we can conclude about that meteorite, either. Chris __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter
Hi Sterling- Indeed, you did not previously reveal the extent of the injuries (which would appear to have been caused by something rather larger than the 50 g meteorite under discussion here). But I wasn't being glib, nor misrepresenting 19th Century medicine. This was certainly not a time you wanted to incur any sort of septic condition, such as might easily follow from a bone break associated with any injury also producing an open wound. So in general, I'm sticking with my position that (in the absence of other medical information) simply knowing that an injury in the 19th Century resulted in an amputation tells very little about the actual severity of that injury in modern terms. Of course, the 19th Century was 100 years long (how about that math ), and a lot changed from the beginning to the end. The entirely useless practice of homeopathy was developed around 1800 and used extensively throughout the century, especially in northern Europe (where it remains popular, sadly). Had a homeopath treated your Swedish meteorite victim, he might have been doomed regardless of the severity of his injury! (Homeopathy became popular because at the beginning of the 19th Century, a treatment that did nothing at all actually produced better results than many of the standard treatments used by the medical profession.) Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: "Sterling K. Webb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Chris Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Meteorite List" Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 1:28 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter Chris, You do the medical profession of the XIXth century a great disservice, particularly from the period following the Napoleonic Wars which, for a complex set of reasons I won't reiterate here, transformed medicine from medieval scholasticism to true science. Many people assume that because physicians had so many fewer tools to utilize than today's doctors, they were made poorer doctors for it. On the contrary, many were forced to be better. In the particular matter of amputation, warfare, especially with artillery, had made this a particularly well understood therapeutic problem. It is true that amputation was more commonly performed in the XIXth century, but that is due to untreatable infections that threatened the life of the patient. The conditions which required it were also well understood, what degree of sepsis and so forth. I did not elaborate on the details of the Swedish injury, but the humerus was shattered, with many large fragments and a wealth of bone splinters. Bone possesses a remarkable ability for reconstruction if the many pieces can be kept aggregated in approximately the correct position, but additionally, the muscles which would have maintained the positioning of the bone while knitting, were shredded to an unrecon- structible degree, and all the intervening vascular tissue was hopelessly damaged or missing. There would have been no blood supply to the injured area nor the remainder of the limb. Amputation was the medically correct treatment, and might still be the preferred, and preferable, treatment today. It is just barely possible that now, with a collection of specialists, a major surgical center, and 22 hours in the O.R., bone support implants, grafting the patient's saphenous veins into the arm and some vascular shunts too, mesh re-growth sheaths for the muscles, a mountain of antibiotics, and $300,000, this arm might have been saved. There would almost certainly have been no nerve function distal to the injury site and little function to the limb of any kind. A totally disfuntional limb also poses on-going risks of serious complications. Lifelong massage and circulatory therapy, and likely electro- myographic stimulation would be required. I think you're seen too many Western movies where "Doc" is a hopeless drunk with a five-day beard, sitting all day in the saloon, in a dusty cowtown, and treats all illnesses with paragoric and all injuries by pouring whiskey over them. A cliche that may have had a few actual antecedents, but an entertainment industry and dime novel cliche just the same; not reality. Of course, not every XIXth century doctor was a Lister, Pasteur, Koch, Ehrlich, Carrel, but I doubt that there were any more bad doctors then than now (not that there aren't a certain number of sub-standard practioners in any era). In fact, it would be harder, in those therapy-poor eras, to hide being a bad doctor. Folks will tend to notice if most of your patients die... Nowadays, if you don't improve, you just go to another doctor until you find one that gets the job done. I'm on my sixth cardiologist, but he's a keeper. Not to belabor the point un
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter
Hola Doug- My earlier response to Pete had numbers attached: a 50 g stone suggests a 30 mm diameter and a terminal velocity of 50 m/s (I assumed a sea level fall). Not having viewed the stone in question, I simply assumed it was spherical, hence there was no speed range given. I'm happy to see we've arrived at about the same numbers- ain't math grand? All the same, it is possible, albeit extremely rare, for a small object to arrive at the ground significantly above terminal velocity. However, such scenarios would seem pretty much to require the low altitude fragmentation of a much larger body, ala Sikhote-Alin. It's hard to imagine such an event could occur without attracting a good deal of attention, so I think we can pretty safely conclude (for reasons other than the obvious statistics) that an isolated fall of a 50 g meteorite, or even the somewhat larger Wethersfield falls, occurred at anything other than the expected terminal velocity. Sterling commented that all falls are different. But really, I think they are actually quite similar in most cases; what is different are the last second dynamics dependent on just what they actually fall on. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 1:26 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter-- uh, I mean TO Jupiter Chris wrote: <have unusually large velocities.>> Hola Chris and Sterling, You guys need to attach more numbers to these arguments imo with sensitivity analysis. Concretely, that meteorite in Darren's picture-considering its shape-would be going about 47m/s (105mph), and not less than 40 m/s (89mph) and not more than 60 m/s (134 mph). The worst case is the energy of a fast ball in the company baseball league, though likelyhood is half that. There are lots of ways to throw a fastball and bruise a grandma or loosen old plaster that your fingers can push through anyway. _http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2004-March/139871.html_ (http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2004-March/139871.html) FYI here is a thread I posted to in Mar of 2004 on the subject of speeds of falling meteorites. I don't think there is all that much uncertainty to the practical endpoints of how fast they can hit as terminal velocity is reached easily in virtually all these cases, (the latter which Chris has mentioned). I wouldn't hesitate to catch a baseball sized meteorite in the pocket of a baseball mit, though I am sure that that same falling rock would easily break someone's arm. People can karate chop wood in half with bare hands and the plaster of old homes can really be falling apart, how many of us have put our hands through the wall on ocassion, so I don't see anything odd with the results. People who get punched get bruised all the time, heck, some people get bruises on their butts from just sitting down. Once the misconception is overcome that meteorites have retained cosmic velocity it just becomes a question on how big the rock is and what it hits. An ordinary tale of sticks and stones and bones. I was carrying an iron in the back of my pickup and driving like a demon a while back. Didn't see a dip in the road and there was a rock in the back of my truck. When the truck was back on all fours again, the rock was still at zero g, and now I have this great crater to show for it. They just don't make the tinbed pickups like they used to... Here's the calculations if you want to go through them. A bowling ball sized chondrite (11.25cm radius) weighs less than 23 kg and falls at about 291 mph (130 m/s) (see prior post link provided above). The terminal velocity varies by the sqrt(mass)/sqrt(x-sectional area). So for the same material in a sphere mass increases with r^3 but cross sectional area with r^2. The dependence reduces to simply velocity being proportional to the square root of the radius. Thus a 50 gram sphere = 13.7 cc, r=1.49 cm can fall at 36% of the bowling ball which gives the 47 m/s ball park you're all in. In that email I also checked the practical limits by flattening it to a shield(3.3):(3.3):1 and orienting it in a 3:1 length:diameter ratio and found that the terminal velocity range was 90-130-211 (m/s), in other words 69%(shield):100%(sphere):162%(oriented). That's a range of 1:2.35 from slowest to fastest. Without messing with the radicals since it is late, if we apply the same factors to the 50 gram piece, we see the speed range to hit the guy who though he was going fishing is 32.5 m/s (the speed of a typical baseball fastball but only 30% the energy) on the low end and 76 m/s (a major league record fastball's energy) on the fast end. The ene
