Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form
Hello Listers, The question with science is no science is bad science. Without the unimaginable, unthinkable, where would science be? 1492 a rock feel from the sky and to many it was a sign from GOD. But to us now this sign is Ensisheim meteorite. However, during the ages of doubt and disbelief of rock coming from space a select few push forth, Chladni, Howard, and Biot. They gave way to the science of meteoritics while others thought that these rock were mere objects ejected from volcanoes, windstorms, or lighting. It wasn’t until 1812 that science accepted that stones come from space and now we know it as meteorites today. Now this comes back to the question about science, why, and the answer is how come. In the coming months I do believe these new findings about arsenic based life will take science in a new perspective like how science took a new approach with meteoritic science. Again, the only bad science is no science. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form Mark Ford mark.ford at ssl.gb.com Wed Dec 8 04:54:03 EST 2010 Previous message: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form Next message: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] To be honest i'm not sure their paper is that much more flawed than many papers of this type are - after all the point of publishing a paper is simply to initiate discussion, encourage people to repeat the experiment and prompt for counter arguments. They can't answer all the questions in one paper. I think the mistake many people make is attach too much weight to one lonely science paper, rather, we should wait until others have repeated/refuted the claims. I think the problem comes from a PR point of view when they do 'world wide' announcements, that are over hyped up. They seemingly didn't learn from the Martian meteorite life one did they.. The danger of using the 'NASA' name to seemingly add creedance to a claim in this way, is at some point you are going to shoot yourself in the foot, and when (if) they do ever find real alien life, is any one going to believe it? Mark -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of JoshuaTreeMuseum Sent: 08 December 2010 08:00 To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form What's up with the NASA junk science? First it's psuedo-fossils in meteorites, now a phony not-new life form. What's next, cold fusion? -- For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism. (SW) Phil Whitmer And, the blowback: http://rrresearch.blogspot.com/2010/12/arsenic-associated-bacteria-nasas .html http://www.slate.com/id/2276919/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us. Email info at ssl.gb.com. You should not copy or use this email or attachment(s) for any purpose nor disclose their contents to any other person. GENERAL STATEMENT: Southern Scientific Ltd's computer systems may be monitored and communications carried on them recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for other lawful purposes. Registered address Rectory Farm Rd, Sompting, Lancing, W Sussex BN15 0DP. Company No 1800317 Previous message: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form Next message: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] More information about the Meteorite-list mailing list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form
I'm not defending the quality of the paper, only making a distinction between incomplete or poor quality science, and "junk science". The paper may fall into one or both of the former categories; I don't think it falls into the latter. As I noted, the hypothesis is a sound one, and this work is sure to generate additional research along these lines. Junk science does not. I see absolutely nothing wrong with the first sentence you quote. I can't imagine any well educated biologist having a problem with it. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: "JoshuaTreeMuseum" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 10:07 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form According to that vast repository of all human knowledge, the modern day Library of Alexandria; Wikipedia, junk science is defined as: Junk science is a term used in U.S. political and legal disputes that brands an advocate's claims about scientific data, research, or analyses as spurious. The term may convey a pejorative connotation that the advocate is driven by political, ideological, financial, or other unscientific motives. The term cargo cult science was first used by the physicist Richard Feynman during his commencement address at the California Institute of Technology, United States, in 1974, to negatively characterize research in the soft sciences (psychology and psychiatry in particular) - arguing that they have the semblance of being scientific, but are missing "a kind of scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought that corresponds to a kind of utter honesty". Check out their first sentence: " Life is mostly composed of the elements carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, sulfur and phosphorus. Although these six elements make up nucleic acids, proteins and lipids and thus the bulk of living matter, it is theoretically possible that some other elements in the periodic table could serve the same functions." This would be news to my freshman biology 101 professor who taught that the bulk of living matter was composed of water and carbohydrates. If you read the paper, they talk a lot about impurities in the salts and reagants. (!??!) They talk a lot about how you can grow this bacteria by feeding it arsenic and how the arsenic is assimilated into its biomolecules. They analyze lots of extracted fracionated nucleic acid. As for showing that the arsenic actually replaces the phosphorus in the DNA helix...not so much. Their evidence for this is weak and cold fusiony. I quote: "Show me the money!" and: "Where's the beef?" I can only conclude that this research is motivated by a political hype-driven agenda to get funding during the Great Recession. This isn't sound science, it's press conference science. I don't really blame them, things are tough all over and NASA needs money to conduct their important work. It's just that you can only yell "Wolf!" so many times. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form
There is a big difference between "junk science" and science which is incomplete, or published too early, or even of generally marginal quality. In the case of this recent work, the hypothesis is sound and the techniques used are reasonable. Certainly, there is reason to suspect that more work should have been done before publishing (although that is far from certain at this point). I don't know how this will all shake out in the long run. I'm sure that others will be pursuing similar work, and applying additional tests. In any case, having read the paper, I don't think this work can fairly be called "junk science". At worst, it is incomplete. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: "JoshuaTreeMuseum" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 1:00 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form What's up with the NASA junk science? First it's psuedo-fossils in meteorites, now a phony not-new life form. What's next, cold fusion? __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form
To be honest i'm not sure their paper is that much more flawed than many papers of this type are - after all the point of publishing a paper is simply to initiate discussion, encourage people to repeat the experiment and prompt for counter arguments. They can't answer all the questions in one paper. I think the mistake many people make is attach too much weight to one lonely science paper, rather, we should wait until others have repeated/refuted the claims. I think the problem comes from a PR point of view when they do 'world wide' announcements, that are over hyped up. They seemingly didn't learn from the Martian meteorite life one did they.. The danger of using the 'NASA' name to seemingly add creedance to a claim in this way, is at some point you are going to shoot yourself in the foot, and when (if) they do ever find real alien life, is any one going to believe it? Mark -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of JoshuaTreeMuseum Sent: 08 December 2010 08:00 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form What's up with the NASA junk science? First it's psuedo-fossils in meteorites, now a phony not-new life form. What's next, cold fusion? -- For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism. (SW) Phil Whitmer And, the blowback: http://rrresearch.blogspot.com/2010/12/arsenic-associated-bacteria-nasas .html http://www.slate.com/id/2276919/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us. Email i...@ssl.gb.com. You should not copy or use this email or attachment(s) for any purpose nor disclose their contents to any other person. GENERAL STATEMENT: Southern Scientific Ltd's computer systems may be monitored and communications carried on them recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for other lawful purposes. Registered address Rectory Farm Rd, Sompting, Lancing, W Sussex BN15 0DP. Company No 1800317 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form
And, the blowback: http://rrresearch.blogspot.com/2010/12/arsenic-associated-bacteria-nasas.html http://www.slate.com/id/2276919/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form
God is the strange attractor at the end of the universe. Thomas M __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form
Didn't you know...? The Earth is flat! Sheesh... ;) Eric On 12/5/2010 4:33 PM, Michael Blood wrote: Hi Jim and all, Personally, I am weary of hearing about "God is dead" .and Atheists - not to mention figures from various "religious" Sects - they ALL seem to think of "God" as some anthropomorphic Male big know-it-all, vengeful, anti sex, homophobic HUMAN - not all that far removed from Greek mythological "gods." I don't believe in the same "God" the atheists don't believe in. Ironically, they seem to be willing to throw out everything not of this Physical plane as well. Being anti religion does not require being anti Metaphysical. How it was that "Christians" (and I use the term VERY loosely) Decided that "God" and evolution are somehow magically incompatible Is beyond me as well. To conclude that if life did not originate on Earth somehow negates anything at all flabbergasts me. Is this the 1600s or what? Amen and hookie zookie, Michael On 12/5/10 6:02 AM, "jimsk...@aol.com" wrote: The debate begins. Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? _http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/04/does-a-new-life-form-mean-god-is-de ad/?icid=main%7Chtmlws-main-n%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%7C188214_ (http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/04/does-a-new-life-form-mean-god-is-dead /?icid=main|html ws-main-n|dl1|sec1_lnk3|188214) Jim K __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form
Hi Jim and all, Personally, I am weary of hearing about "God is dead" .and Atheists - not to mention figures from various "religious" Sects - they ALL seem to think of "God" as some anthropomorphic Male big know-it-all, vengeful, anti sex, homophobic HUMAN - not all that far removed from Greek mythological "gods." I don't believe in the same "God" the atheists don't believe in. Ironically, they seem to be willing to throw out everything not of this Physical plane as well. Being anti religion does not require being anti Metaphysical. How it was that "Christians" (and I use the term VERY loosely) Decided that "God" and evolution are somehow magically incompatible Is beyond me as well. To conclude that if life did not originate on Earth somehow negates anything at all flabbergasts me. Is this the 1600s or what? Amen and hookie zookie, Michael On 12/5/10 6:02 AM, "jimsk...@aol.com" wrote: > The debate begins. > > Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? > > _http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/04/does-a-new-life-form-mean-god-is-de > ad/?icid=main%7Chtmlws-main-n%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%7C188214_ > (http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/04/does-a-new-life-form-mean-god-is-dead > /?icid=main|html > ws-main-n|dl1|sec1_lnk3|188214) > > Jim K > __ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form
Hi List, Just want to share a smile I got while answering a call of nature in a stall at Indiana University many years ago. The scratches on the wall proclaimed: "GOD IS DEAD! NITEZSCHE." Under this.. and in a different hand. "NITZSCHE IS DEAD! GOD." Regards, Guido -Original Message- >From: jimsk...@aol.com >Sent: Dec 5, 2010 6:02 AM >To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form > >The debate begins. > >Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? > >_http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/04/does-a-new-life-form-mean-god-is-de >ad/?icid=main%7Chtmlws-main-n%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%7C188214_ >(http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/04/does-a-new-life-form-mean-god-is-dead/?icid=main|html >ws-main-n|dl1|sec1_lnk3|188214) > >Jim K >__ >Visit the Archives at >http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >Meteorite-list mailing list >Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form
The debate begins. Does a New Life Form Mean God Is Dead? _http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/04/does-a-new-life-form-mean-god-is-de ad/?icid=main%7Chtmlws-main-n%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%7C188214_ (http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/04/does-a-new-life-form-mean-god-is-dead/?icid=main|html ws-main-n|dl1|sec1_lnk3|188214) Jim K __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form
Interestingly enough NASA announces a discovery that helps change and expand our understanding of what kind of life is possible in the universe. This worldwide scientific news gets a few little blurbs on the Met-List. ;) For those who'd like to read more on this discovery: NASA: http://www.nasa.gov/topics/universe/features/astrobiology_toxic_chemical.html Astrobiology Magazine: http://www.astrobio.net/exclusive/3698/thriving-on-arsenic Scientific American: http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=bacteria-use-arsenic-as-basic-build-10-12-02 Space.com: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/arsenic-bacteria-alien-life-101202.html Discover Magazine: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2010/12/02/of-arsenic-and-aliens/ Wall Street Journal: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703377504575650840897300342.html USA Today: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/space/2010-12-03-microbe03_ST_N.htm Christian Science Monitor: http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2010/1202/Arsenic-microbe-in-Mono-Lake-may-reshape-hunt-for-extraterrestrial-life BBC News: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11886943 CNN: http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/12/02/nasa.extraterrestrial.life/?hpt=T2 Enjoy... Regards, Eric On 12/2/2010 10:03 AM, Adam Hupe wrote: Supposedly the cat is out of the bag Here is the link: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/12/nasa-finds-new-life/ Best Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form
I saw something else on (I think) The History Channel with another life form near Mono Lake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o2-xj_axpY&feature=related NASA didn't mention anything about this, did they? Carl2 Adam wrote: >I saw a show on one of the educational channels over a year ago which >discussed the bacteria living in poisonous Mono Lake. They nearly touched on this very issue when discussing extremaphiles. Look at how small (~1 micron) the bacteriais. I remember this being one of the reasons for discounting the fossils in ALH84001 which were said to be too small to support DNA... __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form
On Thu, 2 Dec 2010 10:03:00 -0800 (PST), you wrote: > >http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/12/nasa-finds-new-life/ > Jesus, is Jesus there heavy on the hyperbole! Here's an article written by someone who ISN'T a complete idiot. http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2010/12/bacteria-can-integrate-arsenic-into-its-dna-and-proteins.ars __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form
Another big change to the Drake Equation! Very exciting! Little boundries for life! Cheers, Pete > Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 10:03:00 -0800 > From: raremeteori...@yahoo.com > To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form > > > Supposedly the cat is out of the bag > > Here is the link: > > http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/12/nasa-finds-new-life/ > > Best Regards, > > Adam > __ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form
I saw a show on one of the educational channels over a year ago which discussed the bacteria living in poisonous Mono Lake. They nearly touched on this very issue when discussing extremaphiles. Look at how small (~1 micron) the bacteria is. I remember this being one of the reasons for discounting the fossils in ALH 84001 which were said to be too small to support DNA. I am waiting patiently for them to announce the too numerous to count organized elements in NWA 998 which is the subject of intense study right now. I thought this would be announced this year as they predicted at the begging of the year. Best Regards, Adam - Original Message From: Adam Hupe To: Adam Sent: Thu, December 2, 2010 10:03:00 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] NASA Finds New Life Form Supposedly the cat is out of the bag Here is the link: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/12/nasa-finds-new-life/ Best Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
