Re: [meteorite-list] Strange Martian Surface Feature

[Sterling K. Webb]

Dear Mr. X,

The Meteorite List did not denominate Mr. Hoagland as a "nutcase." I, the
original poster of the inquiry was the one that did that. Although, in fairness,
it seems to have offended no one but a "true believer." As to why, I think the
List has given good reasons.
It is true that Hoagland was the first to suggest that sub-surface Europan
oceans are a possible home of life. Arthur C. Clarke verified that Hoagland
suggested it to him. No one doubts that Hoagland was once bright, intelligent,
constructive, and sane.
I think that Hoagland is a nutcase because if you read Mr. Hoagland's works
over time, you observe a an intelligent and reasoned inquiry (in the 1970's) that
deteriorates progressively in the manner of a classic paranoid delusion. The
scheme of things becomes more grandiose and the claims more outrageous
(miles-high glass buildings on the Moon, aethyric new-age flapdoddle about
"mysterious forces"). A failed Martian mission becomes a "cover-up" devised to
prevent the world from learning his (Hoagland's) truth. And so on.
Curiously, by publishing successive editions of the Monuments of Mars by
appending new revelations to the original text over and over again, Hoagland
himself is the best documentarian of this progression. (I read the Fifth edition;
there may be more.)
You seem to assume that I have not read Hoagland ("perhaps we should look
more closely at that persons  research"). Wrong. I've spent (wasted) considerable
time reading the hundreds of pages of Hoagland's magnum opus for just that
reason; true believers always claim (Hoagland does) that they never get a fair
hearing. I gave him one. Which gives me the right to a judgement. There's nothing
to his case.
As a naive nerd at heart, it never occurred to me that Hoagland might be a
con artist as Allan Treimain suggested. Seems a hard way to make a living, but
who knows? He does seem to have a minor industry going, selling to the faithful.
You suggest he's motivated by the pursuit of knowledge. If you're going to
pursue knowledge, like any good hunter, you have to follow its trail, not just
throw yourself into an abyss of silliness.

Sterling K. Webb
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> In regard to the comment about Hoagland being an alleged "nutcase"  I have to
> ask why?  Why is it that someone is  a nutcase when he or she looks to the
> extraordinary in hopes of  expanding human knowledge?  Was Gallileo a
> "nutcase"?  Yes, he was in his day a nut case, a heretic and in his own time
> an outcast because he chose "unpopular" realms of knowledge to delve into.
> Realms of knowledge that we today know of as science.  Why risk being an
> outcast?  The pursuit of knowledge.  If we rest on what we have learned and
> think we are experts, if we sit by and point fingers at everyone who does not
> hold the same view of the world or universe the same as we do then we are
> confined to an infinite loop of blindness.  Before we point fingers and laugh
> or make fun of someone simply because someone else tells us he or she is a
> nutcase perhaps we should look more closely at that persons  research.  In
> time we may find that our place in our perceived universe may not be as
> special as we might like it to be.
>


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RE: [meteorite-list] Strange Martian Surface Feature

[Treiman, Allan]

Well, IMHO, Hoagland is not a nut case. He is a clever 
cynical expert in public relations, who has made a nice
living on the credibility of others. He has found a 
constituency who wants to believe in life-on-Mars, and 
thinks that anyone who disagrees is part of the Vast 
Government Conspiracy.  
   Its a living, but not one I'd want.

  Allan

Allan H. Treiman
Lunar and Planetary Institute
3600 Bay Area Boulevard
Houston TX   77058-1113
   281-486-2117
   281-486-2162 FAX
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 7:25 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [meteorite-list] Strange Martian Surface Feature


In regard to the comment about Hoagland being an alleged "nutcase"  I have
to 
ask why?  Why is it that someone is  a nutcase when he or she looks to the 
extraordinary in hopes of  expanding human knowledge?  Was Gallileo a 
"nutcase"?  Yes, he was in his day a nut case, a heretic and in his own time

an outcast because he chose "unpopular" realms of knowledge to delve into.  
Realms of knowledge that we today know of as science.  Why risk being an 
outcast?  The pursuit of knowledge.  If we rest on what we have learned and 
think we are experts, if we sit by and point fingers at everyone who does
not 
hold the same view of the world or universe the same as we do then we are 
confined to an infinite loop of blindness.  Before we point fingers and
laugh 
or make fun of someone simply because someone else tells us he or she is a 
nutcase perhaps we should look more closely at that persons  research.  In 
time we may find that our place in our perceived universe may not be as 
special as we might like it to be.

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Re: [meteorite-list] Strange Martian Surface Feature

[STUARTATK]

In a message dated 07/03/02 05:27:08 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Hoagland's extraordinary claims are not remotely supported by the
evidence at hand.  That is why he is considered a "nutcase".


Having said that, as I understand it Mr Hoagland was one of the first people to openly suggest that there may be primitive lifeforms beneath the ice on Europa, an idea which is almost universally accepted by exo-biologists now, so let's not condemn the guy *totally*. It's all good for debate and increasing public interest in Mars, which is what we really need if we've to have any hope of staging a manned mission anytime soon.

Stu

www.newmars.com

Re: [meteorite-list] Strange Martian Surface Feature

[Sharkkb8]

 

Was Gallileo a 
"nutcase"?  


No, I don't think so.

Re: [meteorite-list] Strange Martian Surface Feature

[Dave Hostetter]

I put the Narrow Angle Camera image into Photoshop 5.5, rotated it to get a
fresh perspective (basically upside down compared to the extreme closeup on
the original web page), and enlarged the image considerably.  Looks to me
like the bright reflection in the closeup is the central uplift in an impact
crater.  The crater shows up better in mine than in theirs, but is less
obvious in mine when I rotate it back the way the image on the web site is.
The rotation "changes" the way you perceive it.

Also, in my image the "arches" are far less prominent (perhaps the web site
used different software than I did).  In my rotated image, they look
distinctly concave rather than convex, more like features you would expect
to see at the bottom of a cliff which is where they appear to be.

Of course, I have no expertise in interpreting orbital images of Mars so I
am just saying the way it looks to me.  I do know from many other pictures,
however, that interpreting features on the Martian surface is a tricky
business and that the same feature can be perceived in different ways
depending on how the picture is oriented.  For instance, there are a lot of
images I've seen where rotating the image changes a nice field of craters
into a field of low hills.  It pays to be cautious with this stuff!

Dave Hostetter


> >Ok, it's a little off topic, but... A friend of mine belongs
> >to a group one of whom found the following site displaying an
> >image of a Martian surface feature:
> >
> >This site is one maintained by a notorious whacko and
> >fringe-theorist, Hoagland, the author of Monuments of Mars, so I
> >told them he was a nutcase; forget it. And they properly came
> >back me with "Forget about the nutcase; what the Hell is this?"
> >And I didn't have a good answer. In fact, I don't think I've got
> >any answer. Enigmatic is the best description I could come up
> >with and that's just a word for an excuse.
> >Since the link to the original Mars Observer Narrow Angle
> >Camera image on the Hoagland site is broken, here's the correct
> >link for those that want to puzzle over it in greater detail:
> >
> >Any ideas? What the Hell is this?
> >
> >Sterling K. Webb
> >



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RE: [meteorite-list] Strange Martian Surface Feature

[Treiman, Allan]

Well, I'd go with the sand dunes, or more probably
dust dunes. With wind channeled into those cracks, 
it seems no great stretch of imagination to think
that sand dunes might form. Hoagland has been reading
Dune too much, or perhaps Moving Mars with its silica-
based martian life.
   FWIW
   Allan

Allan H. Treiman
Lunar and Planetary Institute
3600 Bay Area Boulevard
Houston TX   77058-1113
   281-486-2117
   281-486-2162 FAX
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


-Original Message-
From: Sterling K. Webb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 11:46 PM
To: Meteorite List
Subject: [meteorite-list] Strange Martian Surface Feature


Hi, List,

Ok, it's a little off topic, but... A friend of mine belongs
to a group one of whom found the following site displaying an
image of a Martian surface feature:

This site is one maintained by a notorious whacko and
fringe-theorist, Hoagland, the author of Monuments of Mars, so I
told them he was a nutcase; forget it. And they properly came
back me with "Forget about the nutcase; what the Hell is this?"
And I didn't have a good answer. In fact, I don't think I've got
any answer. Enigmatic is the best description I could come up
with and that's just a word for an excuse.
Since the link to the original Mars Observer Narrow Angle
Camera image on the Hoagland site is broken, here's the correct
link for those that want to puzzle over it in greater detail:

Any ideas? What the Hell is this?

Sterling K. Webb


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Re: [meteorite-list] Strange Martian Surface Feature

[rochette]

>Hi, List,
>
>Ok, it's a little off topic, but... A friend of mine belongs
>to a group one of whom found the following site displaying an
>image of a Martian surface feature:
>
>This site is one maintained by a notorious whacko and
>fringe-theorist, Hoagland, the author of Monuments of Mars, so I
>told them he was a nutcase; forget it. And they properly came
>back me with "Forget about the nutcase; what the Hell is this?"
>And I didn't have a good answer. In fact, I don't think I've got
>any answer. Enigmatic is the best description I could come up
>with and that's just a word for an excuse.
>Since the link to the original Mars Observer Narrow Angle
>Camera image on the Hoagland site is broken, here's the correct
>link for those that want to puzzle over it in greater detail:
>
>Any ideas? What the Hell is this?
>
>Sterling K. Webb
>
obviously a set of dunes, chanelled by topography. Dunes are much more
common on Mars than ET. The uncommon thing is the chanelling of the dunes
but it is easely accounted for by the valley topography.

Pierre



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