Re: [uf-discuss] adr should be

[Tantek Çelik]

(below thread(s) kept only for context)

Two Q&A, and two suggested improved behaviors.


Suggested improvements:

1. Before asking a question on a microformats list, read the relevant
FAQs[1].

2. When answering a question on a microformats list:
  a) please check the relevant FAQs first, and if the answer is not there,
document the question and your answer there.
  b) please cite the FAQ answer rather than writing an answer in email.

I have added these to the mailing-lists page:

http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists#General_guidelines

Following #2 gives the following:


Q&A:

1) James Craig: Isn't  the most appropriate element for addresses?

See: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq#Should_I_use_ADDRESS_for_hCards

2) Thom Shannon: The documentation using only divs and spans, so people
don't get confused and think that the element types matter. Obviously people
should use the most suitable elements in the context they're using them. But
I think this should be made much clearer in the wiki.

See: http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#.3Cdiv.3E_and_.3Cspan.3E_semantics


Thanks,

Tantek


[1] Relevant FAQs
1. Start with the general microformats faq: http://microformats.org/wiki/faq
2. Then read specific microformats faqs, e.g. for adr, see hCard FAQ as the
spec points to: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq


On 2/25/07 3:19 PM, "Thom Shannon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Brian Suda made a point at barcamp about the documentation using only
> divs and spans, so people don't get confused and think that the element
> types matter. Obviously people should use the most suitable elements in
> the context they're using them. But I think this should be made much
> clearer in the wiki.
> 
> Christian Heilmann wrote:
>> James Craig wrote:
>>> My recent adr wiki change from  to >> class="adr"> was reverted.
>>> 
>>> Why?  is the most appropriate element for addresses.
>> 
>> Only if the address is directly related the web page it is published
>> on. The address element is meant as a physical locator of the document
>> maintainer, not for any old address:
>> 
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#h-7.5.6
>> 
>> The ADDRESS element may be used by authors to supply contact
>> information for a document or a major part of a document such as a
>> form. This element often appears at the beginning or end of a
>> document.

On 2/25/07 5:10 PM, "Jason Karns" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> An additional reason, is that the  element cannot contain
> block-level children, so  to have block-level children, you would need a
> block-level parent.
> 
> Jason
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Thom Shannon
>> Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 7:18 PM
>> To: Microformats Discuss
>> Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] adr should be 
>> 
>> Sorry Ben! it was you. And you're right, the examples in the
>> docs are a bit misleading.
>> 
>> Ben Ward wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 25 Feb 2007, at 23:19, Thom Shannon wrote:
>>> 
 Brian Suda made a point at barcamp about the documentation
>> using only 
 divs and spans, so people don't get confused and think that the
 element types matter. Obviously people should use the most
>> suitable 
 elements in the context they're using them. But I think
>> this should 
 be made much clearer in the wiki.
>>> 
>>> Actually it was me who made that point, unless Brian did as well,
>>> separately from the panel. Anyway.
>>> 
>>> Some time ago I suggested we put a disclaimer at the top of
>> each spec 
>>> making it clear that SPAN/DIV are used for example purposes
>> and then 
>>> have a new set of 'rich examples', complementing the existing ones,
>>> showing more diverse mark-up in use with microformats.
>>> 
>>> Unfortunately I suck and haven't had the organisation to do
>> anything 
>>> with it, Though it remains on my to-do list.
>>> 
>>> Ben


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Re: [uf-discuss] country-code may be missing from hCard/adr spec

[James Craig]

Michael MD wrote:

It looks like what is really needed is a standard way to represent  
standard country codes - so that machines can look up related  
information for the country without the hit and miss problems of  
freeform text names for places. (but keeping it simple for parsers  
or authors)


No, there are international standard two- and three-letter country  
codes, but these are not used consistently within each country's  
postal service.


James

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RE: [uf-discuss] adr should be

[Jason Karns]

An additional reason, is that the  element cannot contain
block-level children, so  to have block-level children, you would need a
block-level parent.

Jason

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
> Behalf Of Thom Shannon
> Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 7:18 PM
> To: Microformats Discuss
> Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] adr should be 
> 
> Sorry Ben! it was you. And you're right, the examples in the 
> docs are a bit misleading.
> 
> Ben Ward wrote:
> >
> > On 25 Feb 2007, at 23:19, Thom Shannon wrote:
> >
> >> Brian Suda made a point at barcamp about the documentation 
> using only 
> >> divs and spans, so people don't get confused and think that the 
> >> element types matter. Obviously people should use the most 
> suitable 
> >> elements in the context they're using them. But I think 
> this should 
> >> be made much clearer in the wiki.
> >
> > Actually it was me who made that point, unless Brian did as well, 
> > separately from the panel. Anyway.
> >
> > Some time ago I suggested we put a disclaimer at the top of 
> each spec 
> > making it clear that SPAN/DIV are used for example purposes 
> and then 
> > have a new set of 'rich examples', complementing the existing ones, 
> > showing more diverse mark-up in use with microformats.
> >
> > Unfortunately I suck and haven't had the organisation to do 
> anything 
> > with it, Though it remains on my to-do list.
> >
> > Ben
> > ___
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
> ___
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> 

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Re: [uf-discuss] country-code may be missing from hCard/adr spec

[Michael MD]

UK is the abbreviated form of United Kingdom.  As such, it should be  in 
the content of the tag, or else using the abbr element is  unnecessary. 
However, I have no clue as to whether the class country- name is 
appropriate for country codes, which seems to be the issue.   I was just 
commenting on the general html.



It looks like what is really needed is a standard way to represent standard 
country codes - so that machines can look up related information for the 
country without the hit and miss problems of freeform text names for places. 
(but keeping it simple for parsers or authors)



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Re: [uf-discuss] adr should be

[Thom Shannon]

Sorry Ben! it was you. And you're right, the examples in the docs are a 
bit misleading.


Ben Ward wrote:


On 25 Feb 2007, at 23:19, Thom Shannon wrote:

Brian Suda made a point at barcamp about the documentation using only 
divs and spans, so people don't get confused and think that the 
element types matter. Obviously people should use the most suitable 
elements in the context they're using them. But I think this should 
be made much clearer in the wiki.


Actually it was me who made that point, unless Brian did as well, 
separately from the panel. Anyway…


Some time ago I suggested we put a disclaimer at the top of each spec 
making it clear that SPAN/DIV are used for example purposes and then 
have a new set of ‘rich examples’, complementing the existing ones, 
showing more diverse mark-up in use with microformats.


Unfortunately I suck and haven't had the organisation to do anything 
with it, Though it remains on my to-do list.


Ben
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Re: [uf-discuss] adr should be

[Ben Ward]

On 25 Feb 2007, at 23:19, Thom Shannon wrote:

Brian Suda made a point at barcamp about the documentation using  
only divs and spans, so people don't get confused and think that  
the element types matter. Obviously people should use the most  
suitable elements in the context they're using them. But I think  
this should be made much clearer in the wiki.


Actually it was me who made that point, unless Brian did as well,  
separately from the panel. Anyway…


Some time ago I suggested we put a disclaimer at the top of each spec  
making it clear that SPAN/DIV are used for example purposes and then  
have a new set of ‘rich examples’, complementing the existing ones,  
showing more diverse mark-up in use with microformats.


Unfortunately I suck and haven't had the organisation to do anything  
with it, Though it remains on my to-do list.


Ben
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[uf-discuss] cite/embed a microformat tag from another url

[Lorenzo De Tomasi]

Hi,
is it possible to "cite"/embed/import a microformat tag from another
website, using javascript/php + dom or another open web technology?
For example I would like to create a web page that gets updated hcards
of different organizations directly from  their websites...

And if I want to have a realtime updated value (like a counter) on my
website, that gets informations from a  on
another url (for example the one in the yellow rectangle at
http://www.altroconsumo.it/map/show/12530/src/140553.htm )?

Thank you very much

--
Lorenzo De Tomasi
Designer della comunicazione
http://www.ipernico.it
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Re: [uf-discuss] adr should be

[Thom Shannon]

Brian Suda made a point at barcamp about the documentation using only 
divs and spans, so people don't get confused and think that the element 
types matter. Obviously people should use the most suitable elements in 
the context they're using them. But I think this should be made much 
clearer in the wiki.


Christian Heilmann wrote:

My recent adr wiki change from  to  was reverted.

Why?  is the most appropriate element for addresses.


Only if the address is directly related the web page it is published
on. The address element is meant as a physical locator of the document
maintainer, not for any old address:

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#h-7.5.6

The ADDRESS element may be used by authors to supply contact
information for a document or a major part of a document such as a
form. This element often appears at the beginning or end of a
document.



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Re: [uf-discuss] adr should be

[Christian Heilmann]

My recent adr wiki change from  to  was reverted.

Why?  is the most appropriate element for addresses.


Only if the address is directly related the web page it is published
on. The address element is meant as a physical locator of the document
maintainer, not for any old address:

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#h-7.5.6

The ADDRESS element may be used by authors to supply contact
information for a document or a major part of a document such as a
form. This element often appears at the beginning or end of a
document.


--
Chris Heilmann
Book: http://www.beginningjavascript.com
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
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[uf-discuss] adr should be

[James Craig]

My recent adr wiki change from  to class="adr"> was reverted.


Why?  is the most appropriate element for addresses.

James

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Re: [uf-discuss] country-code may be missing from hCard/adr spec

[Erin Caton]

I see your disagree, and I raise you a link. :)

http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_abbr.asp

UK is the abbreviated form of United Kingdom.  As such, it should be  
in the content of the tag, or else using the abbr element is  
unnecessary.  However, I have no clue as to whether the class country- 
name is appropriate for country codes, which seems to be the issue.   
I was just commenting on the general html.


Erin.

On 25-Feb-07, at 12:14 PM, Nic James Ferrier wrote:


Erin Caton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:


It doesn't look like abuse to me, it's just inside-out.  You want the
abbreviated text in between the tags and the full name in the
title=" ".


I disagree. But then I would I guess.

My thinking was:

The class of the element is "country-name". So the content is "United
Kingdom". But the title of the United Kingdom, it's pretty clear to
me, is "UK".




On 25-Feb-07, at 3:19 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:


In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Nic James Ferrier
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes


I do:

 United Kingdom

when I want a country code.


That looks like abuse of the "abbr" tag, to me.

--
Andy Mabbett


--
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http://www.tapsellferrier.co.uk   for all your tapsell ferrier needs
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Re: [uf-discuss] country-code may be missing from hCard/adr spec

[Nic James Ferrier]

Erin Caton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> It doesn't look like abuse to me, it's just inside-out.  You want the  
> abbreviated text in between the tags and the full name in the
> title=" ".

I disagree. But then I would I guess.

My thinking was:  

The class of the element is "country-name". So the content is "United
Kingdom". But the title of the United Kingdom, it's pretty clear to
me, is "UK".



> On 25-Feb-07, at 3:19 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>
>> In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Nic James Ferrier
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>>
>>> I do:
>>>
>>>  United Kingdom
>>>
>>> when I want a country code.
>>
>> That looks like abuse of the "abbr" tag, to me.
>>
>> -- 
>> Andy Mabbett

-- 
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http://www.tapsellferrier.co.uk   for all your tapsell ferrier needs
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Re: [uf-discuss] country-code may be missing from hCard/adr spec

[Erin Caton]

It doesn't look like abuse to me, it's just inside-out.  You want the  
abbreviated text in between the tags and the full name in the title=" ".


Erin.

On 25-Feb-07, at 3:19 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:


In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Nic James Ferrier
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes


I do:

 United Kingdom

when I want a country code.


That looks like abuse of the "abbr" tag, to me.

--
Andy Mabbett
 

Welcome to the world's longest week!
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Re: [uf-discuss] country-code may be missing from hCard/adr spec

[Andy Mabbett]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Nic James Ferrier
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

>I do:
>
>  United Kingdom
>
>when I want a country code.

That looks like abuse of the "abbr" tag, to me.

-- 
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Re: [uf-discuss] country-code may be missing from hCard/adr spec

[Andy Mabbett]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, James Craig
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

>A-1020

I'd mark that up as:

A-1020

or possibly:


   A-1020



After all, most on-line forms have a field for "postal code" into which
such data goes.

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Re: [uf-discuss] [hReview] Excerpt in blog post

[Brian Suda]

On 2/25/07, Riddle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I *need* excerpt of the review on home page and that excerpt +
following review on blog post page.

The question is, should I mark up excerpt as hReview and is it possible?


--- do you have a link? that would help clarify things if we have a
real world implementation to play with.

-brian

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Re: [uf-discuss] [hReview] Excerpt in blog post

[Riddle]

Thank you for explaining a bit about include-thing, but I'm afraid I
still need help to solve my problem.

I *need* excerpt of the review on home page and that excerpt +
following review on blog post page.

The question is, should I mark up excerpt as hReview and is it possible?

--
Riddle
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Re: [uf-discuss] Combining Classes (hCard) [was country-code may be missing from hCard/adr spec]

[Brian Suda]

On 2/25/07, Tim White <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Could you not reduce
DK


DK

you can do that and add other additional values for CSS style (or just
style country-name). Some companies, due to legacy styling and CSS
can't change the style of "country-code" to be on "country-name", but
it is perfectly acceptable to keep both values in the class attribute.

-brian

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Re: [uf-discuss] Combining Classes (hCard) [was country-code may be missing from hCard/adr spec]

[Tim White]

Brian Suda wrote:
>
>Sølvgade 83, opg. S
>title="Denmark">DK-1307
>København K.
>DENMARK
>

Could you not reduce
DK

 
~ Tim

tjameswhite.com'>http://www.tjameswhite.com";>tjameswhite.com





 

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Re: [uf-discuss] [hReview] Excerpt in blog post

[Brian Suda]

On 2/25/07, Riddle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

...
So, I thought about following construction. On main page:

==




Short text.

http://blog.com/entry/#review-1"; 
class="include">



 the include pattern will only work within the same page, i think
you are attempting to include a source NOT on the same page. Also, FN
is required, so you would also need atleast a class="item"/class="fn",
which is also a good place to add the class="photo"


==

On entry page:

==




Short text.

http://blog.com/entry/#review-1"; 
class="include">




http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0455590/";>
The Last King of Scotland (...)




Review text.


25 Feb 2007 by

riddle

Rating: 4 / 5


==

Is my code ok?


--- i'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish on the entry page,
you have the short text AND the full text. Is there a reason to not
just have the full text?


I can remove first part (excerpt) from entry page, but is it necessary?


you don't need the excerpt on the entry page, infact it ends up
causing more problems because now you have 2 descriptions, one in the
short-text, then again in the full-text you are including.



If it is necessary to remove it, can I duplicate poster photo in
second part of hreview?


--- if you are removing the short-text entry, then you could move the
poster into the main review and it would not be duplicating anything.

--- i hope this helps, you will have issues with marking-up a partical
review on the main-page because you can not including data across
pages. This leaves you with a few options...
1) don't try to include the data, just make a minimun hReview on the homepage.
2) don't mark-it-up on the homepage at all, just the entry pages.
3) add more data to the homepage, so it is a full review.

-brian

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Re: [uf-discuss] country-code may be missing from hCard/adr spec

[Brian Suda]

On 2/25/07, James Craig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Sølvgade 83, opg. S
DK-1307 København K.
DENMARK


hCard is modeled after the vCard RFC 2426. It uses a different system
to mark-up addresses than the ISO model. But they can easily be
combined; for example:


Sølvgade 83, opg. S
DK-1307
København K.
DENMARK


You don't have to change the way you display your text, but you have
several choices where you can add the semantics. You can use
DENMARK to mark-up the country-name and ignore the DK
postal-code prefix, or vice-versa.

because ADR is modeled after the RFC it is not likely that the ISO
prefix will be added into the hCard property-List, but there is
nothing stopping you from using it in any form you need. postal-codes
are NOT just integers,

EH9 2JT

you could do:

DK-1307
or
DK-1307

it is a matter of preference and a matter of how consuming
applications deal with this? if i send this postal-code with the ISO
prefix to Google or Yahoo ADR->GEO services does it choke? depending
on what you intend to do with the data, that will help guide you to
how best mark-it-up.

With or without the ISO prefix, ADR works just fine.

-brian

--
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http://suda.co.uk

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[uf-discuss] [hReview] Excerpt in blog post

[Riddle]

Hello

I was digging into hReview specification because I'm about setting up
blog with movie reviews.

The only thing that bothers me is excerpt of my review.

I want to present little poster + short description of review on main
page of my blog and then put link "continue reading" to whole blog
post.

The only problem is that I can't slice entry inside , because my blog system will cut it which will result
in XHTML error -  without closing .

So, I thought about following construction. On main page:

==




Short text.

http://blog.com/entry/#review-1"; 
class="include">


==

On entry page:

==




Short text.

http://blog.com/entry/#review-1"; 
class="include">




http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0455590/";>
The Last King of Scotland (...)




Review text.


25 Feb 2007 by

riddle

Rating: 4 / 5


==

Is my code ok?

I can remove first part (excerpt) from entry page, but is it necessary?

If it is necessary to remove it, can I duplicate poster photo in
second part of hreview?

I'd rather not duplicate anything, because of appearance of full content in RSS.

What I should do?

--
Riddle
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Re: [uf-discuss] country-code may be missing from hCard/adr spec

[James Craig]

Nic James Ferrier wrote:


James Craig wrote:


i18n note: country-code may be missing. Usually a postal-code prefix,
such as "FIN-00630 Helsinki" or "L-4750 Petange" (Luxembourg), used
in addition to, or in lieu of, the country-name. Thoughts?


I do United Kingdom  
when I want a country code.


Assuming you meant this:
UK

That's fine, but country-name and country-code are not mutually  
exclusive. See "in addition to" comment above. For example:


Pazmaniteng 24-9
A-1020 Vienna
AUSTRIA

Sølvgade 83, opg. S
DK-1307 København K.
DENMARK


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Re: [uf-discuss] country-code may be missing from hCard/adr spec

[Nic James Ferrier]

James Craig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> i18n note: country-code may be missing. Usually a postal-code prefix,  
> such as "FIN-00630 Helsinki" or "L-4750 Petange" (Luxembourg), used  
> in addition to, or in lieu of, the country-name. Thoughts?
>
> http://microformats.org/wiki/adr#Property_List

I do:

  United Kingdom

when I want a country code.


-- 
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