Re: [uf-discuss] Re: XFN for email addresses?
On 6/14/07, Ryan King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I agree that the lack of transitivity with email "endpoints" make them > very weak from a claims perspective, and I agree that we can do > better, but given that Technorati and the like still require a > verified email address to open an account, I don't see this behavior > going away anytime soon. Technorati does not require a verified email address. My bad. I presumed that to sign up for a Technorati account, which you can use to claim other URLs, you needed to verify an email address. > One goal of mine to develop a replacement for those "add friends from > your address book" widgets, which are so seductive and therefore so > dangerous. People are being trained to enter their email and password > on almost every new social network; in the case of Gmail, that > username/password combo access far more than just your mail (think: > Google Checkout, web history, etc). This is extremely dangerous. If we > could instead train people to type in a URL-pointer to their list of > friends, authenticate remotely, and then pull down the list of > contacts, including email addresses as necessary, we'd have a much > safer social web. I agree that this is a Good Goal (tm), but that doesn't mean that XFN alone is the way to do it. In fact here's a better way: 1. User enters url (possible OpenId enabled) to a page that contains their contact info and XFN data. 2. The XFN data (rel-friend, rel-colleague) is used to find the list of people to import 3. Use rel-me hcard uid, etc to find contact information for the people on the list. 4. Import the contact info you find. What this leaves out, however, is the ability to contact people programmatically, say, to invite or add them to a new social network. It's my opinion that the URLs that I lay claim to should not *automatically* be added to social networks as accounts without my approval. Therefore, I agree with your steps, but there needs to be a 5th step, which to communicate an invitation to the contact information discovered: in the case of email, the contact transport is obvious; in the case of URLs, the contact mechanism is not clear or does not currently exist in the wild. For example, let's say that I have an OpenID and on the end of it is an hcard with rel-me links to my Flickr, Last.fm and Technorati accounts. No other "contact" information is given. You would like to invite me to NewFoo, the latest and greatest social network, and since my OpenID turned up on your OpenID as a rel-contact link, NewFoo has discovered my whereabouts. Now, I don't want you to be able to automagically add me as a friend on NewFoo, but I wouldn't mind being invited, and at that point, NewFoo needs to offer a mechanism for you to contac me at the URLs that I've made publicly available. If I've added you as a rel-contact on my OpenID endpoint, then perhaps you should be able to send me an invitation through some yet-to-be-invented OpenID messaging transport [1] that will arrive in my non-email OpenID Actions Inbox as a decision to make (as opposed to a message to be responded to): "Ryan has invited you to NewFoo. Cancel or Allow?" Upon allowing, a message would be sent back to NewFoo from my OpenID provider indicating my acceptance of your invitation, at which point my URL could be listed on your friends list as a rel-contact with all the conveyances and benefits that that might afford. Anyway, this is a long way of explaining how OpenID-enabled friending would work, riding on a layer of XFN and a yet-to-be-invented (perhaps Jabber?) messaging transport over OpenID. At the least, this is what I think would come after your step #4 (and interestingly also addresses some of Pelle's concerns). Chris [1] http://lists.danga.com/pipermail/yadis/2005-June/000987.html -- Chris Messina Citizen Provocateur & Open Source Advocate-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412 225-1051 Skype: factoryjoe This email is: [X] bloggable[ ] ask first [ ] private ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] uF dumped in tag soup?
On 6/15/07, Dougal Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Okay, so I started a new job recently. The web site and service has a lot to do with SEO. But despite that, the HTML is a mess of table-based layout and tag soup. I'm hoping I can change that in time, but it won't happen quickly. But one of the main reasons that I think it's possible to change it is because I think that the interest in microformats, and the related boost in search indexing from Technorati and friends, will appeal to my boss. And from there, I have a stepping stone to the benefits of POSH in a more general sense. So I guess my question is, if I manage to shove some microformats (rel-tag, hCard and hReview come to mind) into the middle of our ugly-as-sin markup, are we going to get raked across the coals? :) If you apply microformats to accurately identify the objects in your pages, no, no one will "rake you over the coals", even if the rest of your markup is terrible. The goal of microformats should be "progressive semantics" (like progressive enhancement) where every little bit helps. The beauty of microformats is that they can be worked into even the most god-awful markup and still offer the same benefits as if they were applied to more semantic markup. In any case, you should go for it and then ping us with the results. Chris -- Chris Messina Citizen Provocateur & Open Source Advocate-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412 225-1051 Skype: factoryjoe This email is: [ ] bloggable[X] ask first [ ] private ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] XFN for email addresses?
On Jun 15, 2007, at 12:19 AM, Pelle W wrote: The two concerns that I can come up with is that if one site wants an e-mail adress for their xfn-links and another wants an url then I all of the sudden have to identities without connection between them. The solution to that would be the ability to specify both e- mail and url for the same person - could this perhaps be done with an hCard? The other concern is that an e-mail often has to be written with some kind of a spam-protection - how does that relate to having it as an identification string? I often write foo(SNABEL-A)bar(PUNKT) se when I write mails on my site and then I parse them with JavaScript so that it becomes a real adress in the end - this should protect me from non javascript enabled spambots. The question then is - what mail should xfn "see" - the parsed or the non-parsed? And what if one of my friends adds me and chooses a different spamprotection? The easy solution would be to have a personal unified spamprotected mail - but then no one else than persons can mail them, not even the sites which I may register my e-mail to. What if say Last.fm for example would like to implement this XFN on their users friends list. They need to protect their users' emails but they haven't had their users specify their own spamprotection. Should they then demand a personal spamprotection from each user? Should they skip it or choose on of their own? The only real solution would be to adopt a personal spamprotected mail in addition to the real mail for each user - right? And then that string could be almost anything that uniquely identifies the user - their phone number, their pets name, a public encryption key etc. Spam fighting is out of scope for XFN and microformats in general. -ryan ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCalendar problem with Operator...
Thanks for clearing that up Mike. I'll pass along the link to our developers as well. Dave On 6/15/07, Mike Kaply <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I have fixed Operator 0.8 to "normalize" ISO dates to always include minutes because we had seen this problem in the past with Google as well. An alpha is available from my website: http://www.kaply.com/weblog/2007/06/04/operator-08a-is-available/ Mike Kaply On 6/15/07, David Mead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't know if anyone else has had this problem. > > We are marking up events for a new client site using hCalendar. While > testing in Firefox 2 with the Tails Export 0.3.2 and Operator 0.7 > add-ons we noticed that Tails Export would drop the event info into > Outlook fine but when we tried with Operator it wouldn't. Outlook > claimed "one or more parameter values are not valid". > > Thinking it was us hand-coding it incorrectly we tried using Drew > Mclellan's Dreamweaver extension but still the same thing. So then we > tried the hCalendar creator on microformats.org - no dice! > > I then went to upcoming.org to look at an event there and try and find > something that was causing it to bomb (I had used Operator previously > at upcoming.org). > > It seems the problem was in the title of the tag. We tweaked > the code by hand and added two zeros to the end of the time: > > * was - 20070612T1700 > * now - 20070612T17 > > Is this a problem with the hCalendar creators, the Operator add-on or > us not "getting it"? > > Any insight appreciated. > > Dave > ___ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCalendar problem with Operator...
I have fixed Operator 0.8 to "normalize" ISO dates to always include minutes because we had seen this problem in the past with Google as well. An alpha is available from my website: http://www.kaply.com/weblog/2007/06/04/operator-08a-is-available/ Mike Kaply On 6/15/07, David Mead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I don't know if anyone else has had this problem. We are marking up events for a new client site using hCalendar. While testing in Firefox 2 with the Tails Export 0.3.2 and Operator 0.7 add-ons we noticed that Tails Export would drop the event info into Outlook fine but when we tried with Operator it wouldn't. Outlook claimed "one or more parameter values are not valid". Thinking it was us hand-coding it incorrectly we tried using Drew Mclellan's Dreamweaver extension but still the same thing. So then we tried the hCalendar creator on microformats.org - no dice! I then went to upcoming.org to look at an event there and try and find something that was causing it to bomb (I had used Operator previously at upcoming.org). It seems the problem was in the title of the tag. We tweaked the code by hand and added two zeros to the end of the time: * was - 20070612T1700 * now - 20070612T17 Is this a problem with the hCalendar creators, the Operator add-on or us not "getting it"? Any insight appreciated. Dave ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Using org in vcard in haudio
On Jun 15, 2007, at 3:26 AM, Michael Smethurst wrote: If we can reach some consensus it'll be rolling out across all the bbc music radio and tv programme pages soon(ish). That's a /lot/ of pages so any help in getting it right would be much appreciated KNOWN ISSUES It's great to get some issues from attempts at real-world use early in the process. This is incredibly useful. But it's incredibly useful to the work happening on the microformats-new list, not the microformats-discuss list. So I've forwarded this message there for further discussion. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Using org in vcard in haudio
On 15/6/07 15:55, "Jeremy Keith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Let's get together at some stage over Hackday and have a natter about > this. See you tomorrow. Cool see u there > > Bye, > > Jeremy http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] uF dumped in tag soup?
Okay, so I started a new job recently. The web site and service has a lot to do with SEO. But despite that, the HTML is a mess of table-based layout and tag soup. I'm hoping I can change that in time, but it won't happen quickly. But one of the main reasons that I think it's possible to change it is because I think that the interest in microformats, and the related boost in search indexing from Technorati and friends, will appeal to my boss. And from there, I have a stepping stone to the benefits of POSH in a more general sense. So I guess my question is, if I manage to shove some microformats (rel-tag, hCard and hReview come to mind) into the middle of our ugly-as-sin markup, are we going to get raked across the coals? :) -- Dougal Campbell http://dougal.gunters.org/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] hCalendar problem with Operator...
I don't know if anyone else has had this problem. We are marking up events for a new client site using hCalendar. While testing in Firefox 2 with the Tails Export 0.3.2 and Operator 0.7 add-ons we noticed that Tails Export would drop the event info into Outlook fine but when we tried with Operator it wouldn't. Outlook claimed "one or more parameter values are not valid". Thinking it was us hand-coding it incorrectly we tried using Drew Mclellan's Dreamweaver extension but still the same thing. So then we tried the hCalendar creator on microformats.org - no dice! I then went to upcoming.org to look at an event there and try and find something that was causing it to bomb (I had used Operator previously at upcoming.org). It seems the problem was in the title of the tag. We tweaked the code by hand and added two zeros to the end of the time: * was - 20070612T1700 * now - 20070612T17 Is this a problem with the hCalendar creators, the Operator add-on or us not "getting it"? Any insight appreciated. Dave ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Using org in vcard in haudio
Michael Smethurst wrote: Anyway, help, tips, corrections, clarifications, rants all appreciated Let's get together at some stage over Hackday and have a natter about this. See you tomorrow. Bye, Jeremy -- Jeremy Keith a d a c t i o http://adactio.com/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Problems parsing ufs
On 6/6/07 17:01, "Brian Suda" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 6/6/07, Michael Smethurst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Think I'm tending toward the latter cos the point of the page is the >> review... >> Any thoughts? > > could you provide us with a link so we can help sort out this issue? This isn't the page I was talking about but it also exhibits the same behaviour: http://bbc-hackday.dyndns.org:2822/programmes/shaunkeaveny/episodes/43n8r http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Re: geo in Firefox 3 (as: Microformats gets strong showing in Firefox 3 UI)
On 6/15/07, Pelle W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Could such a microformat be designed like perhaps? HTML already has :-) -Ciaran McNulty ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Re: geo in Firefox 3 (as: Microformats gets strong showing in Firefox 3 UI)
Toby A Inkster skrev: Pelle W wrote: It could also be done for different file extensons, at least those connected to plug-ins, This would reassert the false notion that there's such a thing as a "file extension" on the web. Well - nothing is fool-proof and something that ends with .pdf is most of the time is a pdf-document. One could perhaps use mime-types or such - but then one would need to ask the servers for it. So - as I previously suggested - either a new microformat defining the type or just guessing because guessing might be better than nothing. Could such a microformat be designed like rev="application/pdf"> perhaps? With pointing to a hidden hCard like rev="microformat/hcard"> with or without an anchor defining the position of the microformat? Just pure brainstorming here - I have no idea myself even if this would be good or not. There would perhaps be some use for it? / Pelle ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Using org in vcard in haudio
Hi Scott I was thinking along the same lines but couldn't decide on the demarcation between people and people AS organisations. Is a function of production or fame? Would the same rules apply to Tony Blair, Andy Warhol? Is there a difference between Mark E Smith the person and Mark E. Smith the ""singer""? Or Tony Blair the person and Tony Blair the politician. Anyway, for now I'm keeping it simple and leaving out org cos I don't know from the db if it's a group or a person... So just fn it is Anyway, my first shot at combining hevent and haudio to describe a tracklist is in the wild(ish) here: http://bbc-hackday.dyndns.org:2822/programmes/shaunkeaveny/episodes/43n8r If we can reach some consensus it'll be rolling out across all the bbc music radio and tv programme pages soon(ish). That's a /lot/ of pages so any help in getting it right would be much appreciated KNOWN ISSUES - each track played is both an event and audio. Because hevent uses summmary for it's title and haudio uses fn there's some duplication - because each event ( a programme segment) doesn't have a url but the contributor / contact hcard does both operator and tails parse out this url as the url of the event (see also http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-June/009789.h tml) - the way contributors are added in haudio seems to differ from how contacts are added in hevent. In hevent the hcard can live on the same element as contact; the haudio examples seem to suggest that the hcard lives on a child element of contributor. This might make the layout of a tracklist in a table difficult if the track has 2 contributors (performer + composer) - music brainz links. Both the bbc and another newer more 2.0 radio service are committed to making music resources (artists, releases, tracks) addressable thru urls using musicbrainz ids. But we don't want these to be our public facing canonical urls. We also don't wanna expose links to musicbrainz to users in tracklists (cos they'd get confused). So I've added empty links to musicbrainz artists (where available). These are definitely designed for machines first and humans not at all - apologies - I /know/ it's bad Anyway, help, tips, corrections, clarifications, rants all appreciated Thanks michael On 14/6/07 23:28, "Scott Reynen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm cross-posting this to the -new list, as it might also be relevant > to the hAudio work happening on -new. > > On Jun 14, 2007, at 10:48 AM, Michael Smethurst wrote: > >> >> What should you do if you don't have the data to >> determine whether a "contact" is a group or an individual? > > I think it depends on the context. If it's just a generic contact > that you know nothing about, I'd say just use fn, as adding org is > potentially incorrect information. But if you know it's a music act, > I think it makes sense to consider even an individual performer's > name to be an organization name in that context. I'd say there's a > difference, for example, between Norah Jones the person, who would be > Norah Jones, and Norah Jones the musical act, > which would be Norah Jones. > > Peace, > Scott > > ___ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Re: geo in Firefox 3 (as: Microformats gets strong showing in Firefox 3 UI)
Pelle W wrote: > It could also be done for different file extensons, at least those > connected to plug-ins, This would reassert the false notion that there's such a thing as a "file extension" on the web. -- Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux] [OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 111 days, 16:15.] HenPlus http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/06/14/henplus/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] XFN for email addresses?
The two concerns that I can come up with is that if one site wants an e-mail adress for their xfn-links and another wants an url then I all of the sudden have to identities without connection between them. The solution to that would be the ability to specify both e-mail and url for the same person - could this perhaps be done with an hCard? The other concern is that an e-mail often has to be written with some kind of a spam-protection - how does that relate to having it as an identification string? I often write foo(SNABEL-A)bar(PUNKT)se when I write mails on my site and then I parse them with JavaScript so that it becomes a real adress in the end - this should protect me from non javascript enabled spambots. The question then is - what mail should xfn "see" - the parsed or the non-parsed? And what if one of my friends adds me and chooses a different spamprotection? The easy solution would be to have a personal unified spamprotected mail - but then no one else than persons can mail them, not even the sites which I may register my e-mail to. What if say Last.fm for example would like to implement this XFN on their users friends list. They need to protect their users' emails but they haven't had their users specify their own spamprotection. Should they then demand a personal spamprotection from each user? Should they skip it or choose on of their own? The only real solution would be to adopt a personal spamprotected mail in addition to the real mail for each user - right? And then that string could be almost anything that uniquely identifies the user - their phone number, their pets name, a public encryption key etc. / Pelle Chris Messina skrev: While I've resisted the temptation so far, it does seem that, in order to build a relevant and useful cross-social networking tool -- I need a way to use email addresses as well as URLs to identify people. In particular, you'll notice that most social networks currently (and unfortunately) ask you to login to your webmail accounts (Gmail, Yahoo, Hotmail, etc) to discover whether your contacts are already on the site and if not, to invite them via email. Clearly without a widespread way to message people via their URLs, this is the only reliable method to invite people to join whatever the latest social network is. I'm not here to critique the behavior but instead to recognize what the market currently accepts and treats as acceptable. I created a simple XFN aggregating application, it occurs to me that adding email addresses, both for the purpose of rel-me links and for contact links is actually useful and something that should be supported in XFN (it's currently not clear whether this is acceptable or not; I'm making the case that it should be). Therefore, this: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]" rel="contact">Buddy should be as acceptable as this: http://foo.com/buddy"; rel="contact">Buddy And, on http://foo.com/buddy, this should be permissible: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]" rel="me">Buddy Clearly the biggest issue I see with this scheme is the inability to link out *from* the email address. However, I'm not sure that this case nullifies the utility of such links. Thoughts are welcome. Chris ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] geo in Firefox 3 (as: Microformats gets strong showing in Firefox 3 UI)
Alex Faaborg skrev: The problem with geo is that it is horrible to show in a UI Mike: I think we should still try to support geo. Exposing the user to geographic coordinates isn't ideal, but I think that it is considerably better than hiding the action entirely. I've been talking to Mike Beltzner (UX lead at Mozilla) about microformats UI over the last week, and we are now considering a UI similar to the one Pelle proposed (http://pelle.vox.nu/koncept/locationBarMenu_pelle_small.jpg), in addition to the mouse cursor change. One could perhaps have map-thumbnails describing the position of a geo briefly? Enabling the user to se if the position is in the USA or in Asia and perhaps in which state without the need of clicking through to an external map service. Perhaps even a thumbnail could be viewed in connection to the notification of the microformat? We are also thinking about using the cursor change for other types of content handling, like links with specific protocols (mailto:, webcal:, etc.) and files that will either download or launch a particular application. So this UI is not specific to microformats, but content handling in general. It could also be done for different file extensons, at least those connected to plug-ins, like the extension Link Alert, https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3199, does today. There's quite some people who are annoyed when Adobe Reader starts up when they thought they opened a website... The difficulty with this could be when the webpage changes to much - if a link to a mailadress is triggered by JavaScript instead of a mailto: to prevent spambots for example. If the user expects a different cursor then perhaps he/she will be confused. Then again - one could have a special JavaScript icon - although a link can be both a mailto: and a JavaScript which directs the click somewhere else... The came thing applies to microformats - if they are moved, hidden or replaced with JavaScript or CSS - like imagereplacement technologies - then my contactinfo in an image might not trigger an icon although I have a hidden microformat for it... Perhaps the solution should be a new microformat which can be used to connect my image with contactinfo to my elements with a hCard? Perhaps such a microformat could also be used to describe what a link that triggers a javascript event actually does? Perhaps it could be made to trick people into believing that they're clicking something else than they actyally are - but that's the same case as if the cursor triggers on a link with a mailto: and an onclick-event. / Pelle ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
