Re: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage)

[Christopher St John]

On 8/3/07, Ben Buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The informal approach worked well when the community was new and
> smaller, but now that it's ramping up it doesn't seem to be coping.
> I'm not claiming there's an easy answer, but we should start by
> accepting there's a problem.
>

The IETF, that master of rough consensus and running code[1], is often sited as
an example of a group that is good at lightweight standards development. And it
is. But a closer look shows that "lightweight process" is not at all the same as
"no process whatsoever."

A quick read through the home page for the The Internet Engineering Steering
Group[2] shows that there is quite a lot of hard-won wisdom about how groups
of grown-ups[3] cooperate to produce a standard. The IETF process is not
without problems, and I'm not suggesting it's something that should be
copied, but it is a good example of how some real governance is necessary
even for a very results-focused group of engineers.

FWIW.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rough_consensus
[2] http://www.ietf.org/iesg.html
[3] And/or prickly unsocialized prima donna engineers pretending to
be grown-ups :-)

-- 
Christopher St. John
http://artofsystems.blogspot.com
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Re: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage)

[Ben Buchanan]

> > Once again, there is the impression that microformats fora are being run
> > by an unelected cabal, using arbitrary, personal interpretations of
> > vague and unwritten "rules", applied with no sense of even-handedness.
> > Still, I suppose that's easier than actually addressing the governance
> > and rights issues which I and others have raised.
> Apparently they travel in black helicopters too

I don't think we should make light of this point. I've heard several
people cite this impression as the reason they don't contribute to
microformats. If we can't address the problem then I don't see how we
can attract and retain active members.

More than once I've observed unresolved discussions cut off with a
post saying "wiki updated, issue closed". So, why would someone take
time out of their day to contribute to a discussion if they expect to
be ignored?

To put it another way, if the core group is going to do as it pleases
regardless of community discussion, why are the rest of us here?

The core group is not a defined/invited/elected group so it's not like
a W3C discussion list, where people understand they are giving
feedback but will not be involved in the final decision. The
expectation was that everyone could contribute, but that's not how it
actually feels.

I am not trying to be troublesome, I am expressing a genuine concern
about this community. I don't think it serves anyone's purpose to
ignore what many people feel is true.

The informal approach worked well when the community was new and
smaller, but now that it's ramping up it doesn't seem to be coping.
I'm not claiming there's an easy answer, but we should start by
accepting there's a problem.

cheers,
Ben

-- 
--- 
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
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Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Getting legal help (was: inappropriate behaviour)

[Ernest Prabhakar]

Hi Manu,

On Aug 2, 2007, at 7:10 PM, Manu Sporny wrote:
The reasoning for not discussing legal matters on the list is not  
clear.

It is ironic that in an open community, such as this, that we have any
taboo topics... but here we are.


I an not a lawyer, but my understanding is that any public statements  
made by the adminstrators regarding legal matters could be used  
against them in case of legal action.  Given the explicit goal of  
Microformats.org to avoid any sort of formal bureacracy, I suspect  
that there was a collective decision to simply avoid the issue  
altogether.


If you want something more formal, you may want to look at GRDDL. :-)

-- Ernie P.
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Re: [uf-discuss] Re: XOXO Special Properties

[Dimitri Glazkov]

Ah, I see. Is this what you were referring to?

hReview: http://tinyurl.com/3xgxlu

JSON: http://tinyurl.com/2k7bff

Looks pretty neat, if you ask me. Ryan, what more I should know about
this? Perhaps we could connect on IRC tomorrow to discuss applying
this to XOXO.

:DG<
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[uf-discuss] Re: Getting legal help (was: inappropriate behaviour)

[Manu Sporny]

Scott Reynen wrote:
> The microformats admins have decided to ban Andy Mabbet from this
> community (both email lists and wiki) for one week, due to continued
> failure to adhere to the "be nice" guideline [1] after a private warning.

I don't condone Andy's tone when replying to the thread that started all
of this. I think it is important to note that he is one of the more
frequent contributors to this community and constantly challenges the
ideas and concepts that are just accepted around here without explanation.

While I don't always agree with Andy, he does have a knack for making
logically sound arguments. It is vital to have people that can challenge
the status quo, people such as Andy, involved in a community such as this.

His replies reflect reservations that several members of this community
choose not to express out of fear of retaliation. In this case the topic
is: the insistence that we should not raise legal matters on the mailing
list.

The reasoning for not discussing legal matters on the list is not clear.
It is ironic that in an open community, such as this, that we have any
taboo topics... but here we are.

The only attempt at explaining this why we cannot speak about legal
matters is that nobody on here is a legal expert, including the admins.
If that is the case, I think there is something that we can do to solve
that issue.

I propose that we get the Electronic Frontier Foundation involved. If
not the EFF, then Creative Commons. Each of those organizations believe
in the open exchange of information and have lawyers on the payroll.

I volunteer to get the ball rolling if necessary. Thoughts and suggestions?

-- manu

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Re: [uf-discuss] Re: XOXO Special Properties

[Kevin Marks]

http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-sample-code#testxoxo.py

and similarly fro other languages (this code predates the repository).

On Aug 2, 2007 5:30 PM, Dimitri Glazkov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Can you point me to the existing tests?
>
>
> On 8/2/07, Kevin Marks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > there are python and java versions here, with some tests
> >
> > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-sample-code
> >
> > refactoring tests into the HTML + JSON style discussed for hCard et al
> > would be a fine idea.
> >
> > On Aug 2, 2007 3:47 PM, Dimitri Glazkov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > That's a good idea. I'll definitely look into existing parsers. I have
> > > located xoxo.rb (http://tinyurl.com/3ygt7e), which should be helpful.
> > > Christian's site seems to be down at the moment.
> > >
> > > I see that Hixie raised a similar issue a while back:
> > >
> > > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-issues
> > >
> > > :DG<
> > >
> > >
> > > On 8/2/07, Ernest Prabhakar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > Hi Dmitri,
> > > >
> > > > On Aug 2, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote:
> > > > > My intent is to use XOXO for configuration (remember plists discussion
> > > > > from a while back?) and I would like to make sure I don't write code
> > > > > that does something unacceptable or illogical.
> > > > >
> > > > > Since there is not much heard anymore about the glorious XOXO
> > > > > adventures, I am wondering if the world has moved on to something
> > > > > bigger and better?
> > > >
> > > > I think XOXO is considered a "solved" problem (for some value of
> > > > "solved") which may be why there isn't much  chatter.  Your solution
> > > > sounds reasonable to me -- have you compared it to the existing parsers?
> > > >
> > > > -enp
> > > > ___
> > > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > > >
> > > ___
> > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > >
> > ___
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> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
> ___
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>
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Re: [uf-discuss] Re: XOXO Special Properties

[Dimitri Glazkov]

Sorry. The HTML + JSON style tests... in other words, the test to
which to convert. I don't think I am familiar with those.

:DG<

On 8/2/07, Kevin Marks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-sample-code#testxoxo.py
>
> and similarly fro other languages (this code predates the repository).
>
> On Aug 2, 2007 5:30 PM, Dimitri Glazkov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Can you point me to the existing tests?
> >
> >
> > On 8/2/07, Kevin Marks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > there are python and java versions here, with some tests
> > >
> > > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-sample-code
> > >
> > > refactoring tests into the HTML + JSON style discussed for hCard et al
> > > would be a fine idea.
> > >
> > > On Aug 2, 2007 3:47 PM, Dimitri Glazkov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > That's a good idea. I'll definitely look into existing parsers. I have
> > > > located xoxo.rb (http://tinyurl.com/3ygt7e), which should be helpful.
> > > > Christian's site seems to be down at the moment.
> > > >
> > > > I see that Hixie raised a similar issue a while back:
> > > >
> > > > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-issues
> > > >
> > > > :DG<
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 8/2/07, Ernest Prabhakar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > Hi Dmitri,
> > > > >
> > > > > On Aug 2, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote:
> > > > > > My intent is to use XOXO for configuration (remember plists 
> > > > > > discussion
> > > > > > from a while back?) and I would like to make sure I don't write code
> > > > > > that does something unacceptable or illogical.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Since there is not much heard anymore about the glorious XOXO
> > > > > > adventures, I am wondering if the world has moved on to something
> > > > > > bigger and better?
> > > > >
> > > > > I think XOXO is considered a "solved" problem (for some value of
> > > > > "solved") which may be why there isn't much  chatter.  Your solution
> > > > > sounds reasonable to me -- have you compared it to the existing 
> > > > > parsers?
> > > > >
> > > > > -enp
> > > > > ___
> > > > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > > >
> > > ___
> > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > >
> > ___
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
> ___
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[uf-discuss] XOXO multi-valued property notation

[Dimitri Glazkov]

The description of how to specify multi-valued properties, recorded on
xoxo-faq page seems logical and I think it belongs in the spec. Any
objections if I move it over there? Perhaps right below the Special
Properties?
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[uf-discuss] Re: XOXO Special Properties

[Dimitri Glazkov]

Can you point me to the existing tests?

On 8/2/07, Kevin Marks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> there are python and java versions here, with some tests
>
> http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-sample-code
>
> refactoring tests into the HTML + JSON style discussed for hCard et al
> would be a fine idea.
>
> On Aug 2, 2007 3:47 PM, Dimitri Glazkov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > That's a good idea. I'll definitely look into existing parsers. I have
> > located xoxo.rb (http://tinyurl.com/3ygt7e), which should be helpful.
> > Christian's site seems to be down at the moment.
> >
> > I see that Hixie raised a similar issue a while back:
> >
> > http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-issues
> >
> > :DG<
> >
> >
> > On 8/2/07, Ernest Prabhakar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Hi Dmitri,
> > >
> > > On Aug 2, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote:
> > > > My intent is to use XOXO for configuration (remember plists discussion
> > > > from a while back?) and I would like to make sure I don't write code
> > > > that does something unacceptable or illogical.
> > > >
> > > > Since there is not much heard anymore about the glorious XOXO
> > > > adventures, I am wondering if the world has moved on to something
> > > > bigger and better?
> > >
> > > I think XOXO is considered a "solved" problem (for some value of
> > > "solved") which may be why there isn't much  chatter.  Your solution
> > > sounds reasonable to me -- have you compared it to the existing parsers?
> > >
> > > -enp
> > > ___
> > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > >
> > ___
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
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Re: [uf-discuss] XOXO Special Properties

[Kevin Marks]

there are python and java versions here, with some tests

http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-sample-code

refactoring tests into the HTML + JSON style discussed for hCard et al
would be a fine idea.

On Aug 2, 2007 3:47 PM, Dimitri Glazkov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That's a good idea. I'll definitely look into existing parsers. I have
> located xoxo.rb (http://tinyurl.com/3ygt7e), which should be helpful.
> Christian's site seems to be down at the moment.
>
> I see that Hixie raised a similar issue a while back:
>
> http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-issues
>
> :DG<
>
>
> On 8/2/07, Ernest Prabhakar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi Dmitri,
> >
> > On Aug 2, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote:
> > > My intent is to use XOXO for configuration (remember plists discussion
> > > from a while back?) and I would like to make sure I don't write code
> > > that does something unacceptable or illogical.
> > >
> > > Since there is not much heard anymore about the glorious XOXO
> > > adventures, I am wondering if the world has moved on to something
> > > bigger and better?
> >
> > I think XOXO is considered a "solved" problem (for some value of
> > "solved") which may be why there isn't much  chatter.  Your solution
> > sounds reasonable to me -- have you compared it to the existing parsers?
> >
> > -enp
> > ___
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
> ___
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Re: [uf-discuss] XOXO Special Properties

[Dimitri Glazkov]

That's a good idea. I'll definitely look into existing parsers. I have
located xoxo.rb (http://tinyurl.com/3ygt7e), which should be helpful.
Christian's site seems to be down at the moment.

I see that Hixie raised a similar issue a while back:

http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-issues

:DG<

On 8/2/07, Ernest Prabhakar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Dmitri,
>
> On Aug 2, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote:
> > My intent is to use XOXO for configuration (remember plists discussion
> > from a while back?) and I would like to make sure I don't write code
> > that does something unacceptable or illogical.
> >
> > Since there is not much heard anymore about the glorious XOXO
> > adventures, I am wondering if the world has moved on to something
> > bigger and better?
>
> I think XOXO is considered a "solved" problem (for some value of
> "solved") which may be why there isn't much  chatter.  Your solution
> sounds reasonable to me -- have you compared it to the existing parsers?
>
> -enp
> ___
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> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>
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Re: [uf-discuss] XOXO Special Properties

[Ernest Prabhakar]

Hi Dmitri,

On Aug 2, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Dimitri Glazkov wrote:

My intent is to use XOXO for configuration (remember plists discussion
from a while back?) and I would like to make sure I don't write code
that does something unacceptable or illogical.

Since there is not much heard anymore about the glorious XOXO
adventures, I am wondering if the world has moved on to something
bigger and better?


I think XOXO is considered a "solved" problem (for some value of  
"solved") which may be why there isn't much  chatter.  Your solution  
sounds reasonable to me -- have you compared it to the existing parsers?


-enp
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[uf-discuss] XOXO Special Properties

[Dimitri Glazkov]

I don't know if there's much interest in XOXO anymore, with sexier new
h* monikers and all, but I  seem to have great appreciation for this
simple format.

I am currently trying to understand how to best parse and understand
the meaning of XOXO-ed content, and need some guidance/ideas on
properties, specifically these:

http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo#Special_Properties

Here are some thoughts on parsing of properties that I put down:

http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-brainstorming#Parsing_Properties

My intent is to use XOXO for configuration (remember plists discussion
from a while back?) and I would like to make sure I don't write code
that does something unacceptable or illogical.

Since there is not much heard anymore about the glorious XOXO
adventures, I am wondering if the world has moved on to something
bigger and better?

:DG<
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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats UI in Firefox 3

[Thom Shannon]

did you carry on working on the idea of showing whats a microformat in 
the page? There was talk of a mouse cursor change when a user hovers 
over. The last mockup i saw had an icon at the end of the address bar 
with action. I think both of those would be a good way forward.


I started a thread a while ago about the idea of coming up with a more 
user friendly name/description for microformats. You supported the idea 
then, has there been any thought on it from the FF guys?


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[admin] Re: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage)

[Scott Reynen]

On Aug 1, 2007, at 1:02 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:


In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Andy Mabbett
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

Frankly Andy, due to your use of the {{subst}} method, you have  
now added
additional time cost to determining if any page *you* edit in  
particular is
consistently in the public domain or not with respect to all  
other public

domain contributors.


Frankly, Tantek, that's bullshit.


I have just received an e-mail, from Frances Berriman, subject   
"Warning
of inappropriate behaviour on mf-discuss", citing the above  
exchange of

26 July, in:

  


and telling me that:

Such an outburst (sic) requires (sic) a warning that if you
cannot contribute with respect and in an appropriate tone  
on the

mailing list, you will receive a cooling off ban.

Perhaps Ms Berriman isn't familiar with British English vernacular
(which would be odd, I understand she lives here), but "Rubbish,
nonsense" is in the Oxford English Dictionary, and means "rubbish,
nonsense". In any case, that was no "outburst"; but a considered  
and apt
description of the comment to which I was responding; and I stand  
by it.


The microformats admins have decided to ban Andy Mabbet from this  
community (both email lists and wiki) for one week, due to continued  
failure to adhere to the "be nice" guideline [1] after a private  
warning.


[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists#Be_nice

Sincerely,
Scott Reynen
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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps

[Gregor J. Rothfuss]

ah. i have not implemented microformats for geocodes yet. they are
stored and handled differently. if i get some of that 20% time (heh) i
will add support for it.

On 8/1/07, Rob Manson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Gregor,
>
> I just followed the tinyurl link that Andy Mabbett posted to the list
> which lead to a Google Maps search:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/38gbbl
>
> Then did a "view selection source" on the address in the left hand
> panel.
>
> Hope that helps...
>
>
> Rob Manson
>
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RE: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps

[Rob Manson]

We do that internally via some scripts so I'd be happy to contribute one
if more than a couple of people are interested in it.

It could be a nice parallel to the vCard to hCard converter I
contributed too.


Rob

On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 14:46 +0100, Farndon, Tony wrote:
> Has anyone built a page that would allow anyone to enter a freeform
> address, it gets sent to googles geocoder, does it's magic on the json
> output and then creates a fully marked up adr with children (plus a geo
> span whilst it is at it) for them to copy and paste? 
> 
> If not, could one be produced to compliment the hcard creator?
> 
> T.


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Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Microformats in Google Maps

[Tantek Çelik]

On 8/2/07 8:34 AM, "Toby A Inkster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Andy Mabbett wrote:
> 
>> 
>> which strikes me as unworkable, being overly complex and not suitable
>> for internationalisation (not just in non-English speaking countries,
>> but outside the USA)
> 
> I'm with Andy on this one.

To be clear, I wanted to document it as a brainstorm to be critiqued, with
severe doubts myself, from the second paragraph in that section, which I
wrote:

"This may also be too difficult/complex to be dependable or interoperable,
but it is worth at least documenting our considerations and analysis either
way."

In general, the documentation of such "strawman" thoughts and criticisms of
such is just good science.  Not every brainstorm should be taken as a
proposal that is intended to be adopted.


> 

Please add examples that show problems with it to the section with the
brainstorm rather than the emails list. And no need to try to be
comprehensive about showing problems with it, one or two examples will do
for now, given the doubts expressed from the origin.


> I recently had to write some code to transfer almost 500,000 addresses
> from a loosely formatted list to one which had separate fields for house
> name, address, town, county, country and postcode.
> 
> Because these were almost entirely UK addresses, and I had a big database
> of all UK postal town and corresponding postcodes, I was able to get about
> 95% accuracy -- but that involved hundreds of lines of code. To cover a
> useful number of countries would require tens of thousands of lines of
> code.

This is a useful datapoint.  Note that it doesn't prove difficulty (in that
someone else may be able to write simpler/more efficient code, or not), but
any such implementation experience is useful to capture.


> Requiring the use of heuristics to parse address data raises the barrier to
> entry for implementing hCard astronomically.

Perhaps not "astronomically", but I agree with your sentiment. ;)


> Andy's suggestion of defaulting to "extended-address" is better, though
> given the semantics of "extended-address", which appears to be for flat
> numbers, I'd prefer to default to "street-address".

I'd prefer neither.  I think there would be too much semantic dilution (or
artificial semantic precision) by doing so (putting things that don't have a
certain semantic into a field that implies that semantic).


> How about:
> 
> Where "adr" has content not enclosed in any explicit sub-
> properties, parsers MAY attempt to heuristically determine
> the address parts and, if appropriate, MAY ask the user
> to manually separate the address. Failing that, parsers
> MUST assume this content to be the "street-address".

I'm not even sure about permitting the heuristic part.

I think for now the simplest and most interoperable (and what I think
implementations already do) is to make this an FAQ (because the spec already
doesn't say to do anything with adr without any subproperty):

http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#adr_without_children_FAQ

Thanks,

Tantek

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[uf-discuss] Re: Microformats in Google Maps

[Toby A Inkster]

Andy Mabbett wrote:

> 
> which strikes me as unworkable, being overly complex and not suitable
> for internationalisation (not just in non-English speaking countries,
> but outside the USA)

I'm with Andy on this one.

In fact, Tantek's proposed algorithm doesn't even solve the problem of
parsing US addresses. Consider:


  Contactez-nous a:
  
Ambassade de France aux Etats-Unis

  4101 Reservior Road, N.W.
  Washington D.C. 20007
  Etats-Unis d'Amerique

  


I recently had to write some code to transfer almost 500,000 addresses
from a loosely formatted list to one which had separate fields for house
name, address, town, county, country and postcode.

Because these were almost entirely UK addresses, and I had a big database
of all UK postal town and corresponding postcodes, I was able to get about
95% accuracy -- but that involved hundreds of lines of code. To cover a
useful number of countries would require tens of thousands of lines of
code.

Requiring the use of heuristics to parse address data raises the barrier to
entry for implementing hCard astronomically.

Andy's suggestion of defaulting to "extended-address" is better, though
given the semantics of "extended-address", which appears to be for flat
numbers, I'd prefer to default to "street-address".

How about:

Where "adr" has content not enclosed in any explicit sub-
properties, parsers MAY attempt to heuristically determine
the address parts and, if appropriate, MAY ask the user
to manually separate the address. Failing that, parsers
MUST assume this content to be the "street-address".

-- 
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 42 days, 18:43.]

   Open Mobile Alliance DTD Oops!
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/08/02/xhtml-mobile-oops/

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RE: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps

[Farndon, Tony]

Has anyone built a page that would allow anyone to enter a freeform
address, it gets sent to googles geocoder, does it's magic on the json
output and then creates a fully marked up adr with children (plus a geo
span whilst it is at it) for them to copy and paste? 

If not, could one be produced to compliment the hcard creator?

T.
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rob
Manson
Sent: 02 August 2007 14:35
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps

Hi all,

converting a freeform address is definitely much easier nowadays with
all the geocode services out there, so nobody should have to develop
their own custom parser any more.

For example Google provides an excellent service so any publisher with
freeform address data should not only be able to generate a geocode from
that text but also retrieve a nicely sliced up structured address too.

e.g.

UNSTRUCTURED INPUT DATA: (To use the previous address example)
922 Aldridge Rd, Birmingham B44


GEOCODE CALL:
http://maps.google.com/maps/geo?q=922+Aldridge+Rd,+Birmingham
+B44&output=json&key=YOUR_GOOGLE_API_KEY_HERE


STRUCTURED OUTPUT AS JSON (or other format as requested):
{"name":"922 Aldridge Rd, Birmingham
B44","Status":{"code":200,"request":"geocode"},"Placemark":[{"id":"p1","
address":"922 Aldridge Rd, Birmingham, Birmingham, B44 8,
UK","AddressDetails":{"Country":{"CountryNameCode":"GB",
"AdministrativeArea":{"AdministrativeAreaName":"England",
"SubAdministrativeArea":{"SubAdministrativeAreaName":"Birmingham",
"Locality":{"LocalityName":"Birmingham","Thoroughfare":{"ThoroughfareNam
e":"922 Aldridge Rd"},"PostalCode":{"PostalCodeNumber":"B44
8"},"Accuracy":
8},"Point":{"coordinates":[-1.903576,52.544932,0]}}]}


So now you have nicely structured hCard data:
922 Aldridge Rd 
Birmingham,  Birmingham,  B44  England 



But I'm sure I'm telling you all how to suck eggs 8)



Rob Manson


BTW Scott...I tried your auto_geo tool and got the following error:

Internal Server Error
The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was
unable to complete your request.

Please contact the server administrator,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and inform them of the time
the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have
caused the error.

More information about this error may be available in the server error
log.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use
an ErrorDocument to handle the request.


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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps

[Rob Manson]

Hi all,

converting a freeform address is definitely much easier nowadays with
all the geocode services out there, so nobody should have to develop
their own custom parser any more.

For example Google provides an excellent service so any publisher with
freeform address data should not only be able to generate a geocode from
that text but also retrieve a nicely sliced up structured address too.

e.g.

UNSTRUCTURED INPUT DATA: (To use the previous address example)
922 Aldridge Rd, Birmingham B44


GEOCODE CALL:
http://maps.google.com/maps/geo?q=922+Aldridge+Rd,+Birmingham
+B44&output=json&key=YOUR_GOOGLE_API_KEY_HERE


STRUCTURED OUTPUT AS JSON (or other format as requested):
{"name":"922 Aldridge Rd, Birmingham
B44","Status":{"code":200,"request":"geocode"},"Placemark":[{"id":"p1","address":"922
 Aldridge Rd, Birmingham, Birmingham, B44 8, 
UK","AddressDetails":{"Country":{"CountryNameCode":"GB",
"AdministrativeArea":{"AdministrativeAreaName":"England",
"SubAdministrativeArea":{"SubAdministrativeAreaName":"Birmingham",
"Locality":{"LocalityName":"Birmingham","Thoroughfare":{"ThoroughfareName":"922 
Aldridge Rd"},"PostalCode":{"PostalCodeNumber":"B44 8"},"Accuracy": 
8},"Point":{"coordinates":[-1.903576,52.544932,0]}}]}


So now you have nicely structured hCard data:
922 Aldridge Rd 
Birmingham, 
Birmingham, 
B44 
England 



But I'm sure I'm telling you all how to suck eggs 8)



Rob Manson


BTW Scott...I tried your auto_geo tool and got the following error:

Internal Server Error
The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was
unable to complete your request.

Please contact the server administrator,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and inform them of the time
the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have
caused the error.

More information about this error may be available in the server error
log.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use
an ErrorDocument to handle the request.


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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps

[David Mead]

I don't think it's Operator that's at fault.

I wrote a post about trying Google Maps
(http://www.viewfromw6th.com/2007/08/microformats-getting-bigger.html)
as soon as I heard they were using microformats.  Looking up our
company address I could not pull any meaningful data out using
Operator, Tails or the LeftLogic bookmarklet.

Though it's great news I'm a little saddened that Google couldn't get
it right first time.

Dave

On 8/1/07, Andy Mabbett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In message
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Gregor J.
> Rothfuss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>
> >> Unfortunately, now that I've checked, I find that it appears buggy. This
> >> search:
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> >> has 3 hCards, two are invalid and the other (in the "pushpin" pop-up)
> >> has:
> >>
> >> NAME:Great Barr School - Google Maps
> >> N:;;
> >> ORG;CHARSET=UTF-8:Address:
> >>FN;CHARSET=UTF-8:Address:
> >> ADR;CHARSET=UTF-8:;;
>
> >i will look into it.
>
> Thank you.
>
> >operator parsing behavior has changed in recent releases, and i had to
> >change the markup a couple times to make it work.
>
> I'm not sure that Operator has anything to do with it.
>
> >any suggestions what ought to be fixed?
>
> You could start by producing valid (X)HTML, and put your styles in an
> external style sheet - that at least would make it easier to debug!
>
> I don't know Javascript, so can't comment on any errors in that.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> ___
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>
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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps

[Scott Reynen]

On Aug 1, 2007, at 7:42 PM, Michael MD wrote:

Freeform text addresses might not be good for conversion to hcard/ 
vcard but can still be very useful to humans!
- it seems obvious to me that people out there (regardless of what  
anyone says) will try to stick them in adr somehow!


Perhaps we do need some way to mark up such addresses so that there  
could be export tools that give the user options to split them?


I don't understand why we need some way to mark up such addresses.   
Aren't publishers already marking them up with class="adr"?  A while  
back I wrote a tool to insert geo coordinates in hCards based on  
addresses:


http://microformat.makedatamakesense.com/auto_geo/

That doesn't require any structure to addresses, so it works fine  
with adr as unstructured text.  I think we'd have a hard time coming  
up with a better solution to this problem than the one that's already  
working in practice.


Peace,
Scott
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Re: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage)

[Michael Smethurst]

On 1/8/07 20:02, "Andy Mabbett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> Once again, there is the impression that microformats fora are being run
> by an unelected cabal, using arbitrary, personal interpretations of
> vague and unwritten "rules", applied with no sense of even-handedness.
> Still, I suppose that's easier than actually addressing the governance
> and rights issues which I and others have raised.

Apparently they travel in black helicopters too


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Re: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage)

[Frances Berriman]

On 02/08/07, Frances Berriman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> This was just a politeness on my behalf, as I spoke not as an
> individual but for those listed on the governance section[1] of the
> wiki, who are refered to as the administration.  I was under the
> impression that that would be clear enough for you.

My mistake.  The word used is indeed "administrators", but it only
needs a little bit of common sense applied.  I'll be sure not to use
"administration" in future.

-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
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Re: [uf-discuss] inappropriate behaviour (was: Discussion of public domain declaration template usage)

[Frances Berriman]

On 01/08/07, Andy Mabbett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Andy Mabbett
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>
> >>Frankly Andy, due to your use of the {{subst}} method, you have now added
> >>additional time cost to determining if any page *you* edit in particular is
> >>consistently in the public domain or not with respect to all other public
> >>domain contributors.
> >
> >Frankly, Tantek, that's bullshit.
>
> I have just received an e-mail, from Frances Berriman, subject  "Warning
> of inappropriate behaviour on mf-discuss", citing the above exchange of
> 26 July, in:
>
>   
> 
>
> and telling me that:
>
> Such an outburst (sic) requires (sic) a warning that if you
> cannot contribute with respect and in an appropriate tone on the
> mailing list, you will receive a cooling off ban.
>
> Perhaps Ms Berriman isn't familiar with British English vernacular
> (which would be odd, I understand she lives here), but "Rubbish,
> nonsense" is in the Oxford English Dictionary, and means "rubbish,
> nonsense". In any case, that was no "outburst"; but a considered and apt
> description of the comment to which I was responding; and I stand by it.

If you'd like to correct my typos, please do, but the discuss mailing
list isn't the venue to do so.

If you feel that your response wasn't out of order, okay - feel free
to say so or clarify your intent off list.

> Ironically, Ms Berriman also implies that I'm a - quote - "jerk". The
> OED tells me that that insult refers to "Someone of little or no
> account; a fool, a stupid person". Perhaps she ought to put her own
> house in order.

Out of context.  I simple quoted the statement from the "be nice"
guidelines, as below:

"
Per the mailing-lists guideline "be nice":

http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists#Be_nice

"The admins may take swift action to ban or moderate individuals who
essentially are "jerks" on the list."
"

> Also of interest is the fact that Ms Berriman signs her post "on behalf
> of the microformats administration". I can find no reference to such an
> organisation on the wiki or mailing list. Maybe I've missed something?

This was just a politeness on my behalf, as I spoke not as an
individual but for those listed on the governance section[1] of the
wiki, who are refered to as the administration.  I was under the
impression that that would be clear enough for you.

I also specifically said that you may email me if you've got any
questions.  I'm always more than happy to clarify things, or if you
genuinely felt that you weren't in the wrong, that is up for
discussion too.  Holding such conversations on the discuss list isn't
appropriate or helpful though.

If you, or anyone else for that matter, would like to discuss this
further, please email me off list.

[1]http://microformats.org/wiki/governance


-- 
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps

[Ciaran McNulty]

On 8/2/07, Andy Mabbett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I addressed this in:
>
>  

I've been trying to find an explanation of what 'extended-address'
actually means, the examples in the vCard spec seem to omit it.

>From its order in the sequence of the fields in ADR, however, I think
it's reasonably clear that it's more specific than the street address,
so would be something like 'Flat 2b'.  This also seems to be the
common usage in hCard.

For those reasons I'm unconvinced about putting all the address data
available into that one field.

It might be useful if someone could experiment with conforming agents
to see if they can take multi-line imput for different ADR fields?

> but people (Brian Suda, chiefly) insisted that my suggestion should not
> be followed, and that such addresses should instead be wrapped with
> class="label" - which is supposedly for:
>
> "formatted text corresponding to delivery address"
>
> Note the use of "formatted".

Can you elaborate on what the issue is there?  Most text on web pages
is formatted, and I think in this context it just means 'with
linebreaks' which fairly simple parsing rules would solve.

My main hesitation about using LABEL is that it isn't part of ADR and
so isn't appropriate for the ADR-without-hCard usages.

> More recently, Tantek added:
>
>   
>
> which strikes me as unworkable, being overly complex and not suitable
> for internationalisation (not just in non-English speaking countries,
> but outside the USA)

I agree that i18n issues make this a bit too strict (I have similar
reservations about the implied-n optimisations  but that's
tangential).

IMO it may be that the best option is to say that ADR can exist
without subproperties for hCard / solo-ADR use for the purposes of
semantically expressing 'hey this is an address' but then to offer no
mapping to vCard unless the sub-properties are present.

-Ciaran McNulty
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RE: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps

[Farndon, Tony]

Hi Alex

Have you tried my Minimap Firefox Addon?? It goes some way to what you
were suggesting, in that it stores addresses/placemarks locally in your
firefox profile, along with the url from where that address/location was
from so that you can geographically browse. All placemarks are displayed
in a sidebar map (optionally a fullscreen 'Map Tab' displays all the
info) and from this sidebar you can open up the placemarks corresponding
url in a new tab.

Although microformats is not in the extension per se, there is an
operator script that sends uf addresses or geo to the placemark list
(why reinvent the wheel having two extensions parse the same page every
time!). 

For websites not yet uf adr enabled, you just drag and drop the address
text onto the sidebar to add. The extension also supports kml links
including google MyMaps.

http://firefox.spatialviews.com

Shameless plug over, Tony


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alex
Faaborg
Sent: 01 August 2007 19:31
To: Microformats Discuss; Kevin Marks
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps

This is great, I'm really glad to see Google using microformats.

Quick question about handing microformatted content back to Google Maps
(using Operator, Firefox 3, etc): does your API support currently
sending multiple items, and adding them to a particular map listed in My
Maps?

For instance, this would enable the user to select multiple hCards on a
Web site and send them all to one of their maps.  Or, to give a more
advanced use case: a Web browser could automatically send all
encountered hCards, adrs and geos to a map called "Web History."  The
user could then turn this map on to view all of the pieces of
information they recently encountered online geographically.  This could
be useful when planning a vacation, searching for real estate across
multiple Web sites, etc.

-Alex


On Jul 31, 2007, at 3:37 PM, Kevin Marks wrote:

> http://googlemapsapi.blogspot.com/2007/06/microformats-in-google-
> maps.html
>
> Microformats in Google Maps
> Tuesday, July 31, 2007 at 4:28:00 PM
> Posted by Gregor J. Rothfuss, Maps Team and Kevin Marks, Apps Team
>
> If you have spent any time in certain corners of the web, you will 
> have heard of Microformats: Clever uses of HTML that add 
> machine-readability to everyday web pages while preserving 
> human-readability. Microformats allow tools to make more sense of your

> web pages, while not changing the visual appearance for visitors to 
> your site one whit.
>
> Today we're happy to announce that we are adding support for the hCard

> microformat to Google Maps results. Why should you care about some 
> invisible changes to our HTML? By marking up our results with the 
> hCard microformat, your browser can easily recognize the address and 
> contact information in the page, and help you transfer it to an 
> addressbook or phone more easily. Firefox users can install the 
> Operator or Tails extension; IE or Safari users can use one of these 
> bookmarklets. [...] ___
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats in Google Maps

[Andy Mabbett]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Michael MD
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

>> So it appears that none of the address sub-elements are being classified
>> at all, just simply poured into the adr td and broken up with br's.
>>
>> To be parsed they should be wrapped in classified elements like the
>
>
>I'm not surprised at all to see this kind of thing out there.
>
>There are a lot of cases where people may have freeform text addresses
>and wish to mark them up somehow...  - especially where there is a lot
>of user-entered or legacy data (Google would have plenty of both!)
>
>There are no reliable automated means of splitting such freeform text
>into the seperate elements required by hcard and to expect everyone to
>manually re-enter everything is definately asking too much!
>
>Freeform text addresses might not be good for conversion to hcard/vcard
>but can still be very useful to humans!
>- it seems obvious to me that people out there (regardless of what
>anyone says) will try to stick them in adr somehow!

I addressed this in:

 

but people (Brian Suda, chiefly) insisted that my suggestion should not
be followed, and that such addresses should instead be wrapped with
class="label" - which is supposedly for:

"formatted text corresponding to delivery address"

Note the use of "formatted".

More recently, Tantek added:

  

which strikes me as unworkable, being overly complex and not suitable
for internationalisation (not just in non-English speaking countries,
but outside the USA)

-- 
Andy Mabbett
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