Re: [uf-discuss] Optimus — microformats parse r
Dmitry Baranovskiy wrote: Hello everyone, Inspired by Brian's X2V[1] and Drew's presentation Can Your Website be Your API?[2] I wrote µf parser that transforms any microformatted web page to XML or JSON. Great work, thanks Dmitry! ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum
Frances Berriman wrote: [...] As is the microformats principle, perhaps we should see what turns up naturally in the wild as the way people describe such pages and go with that as a guide. Maybe this is over simplistic but my mum understands download. That seems to me to be the most natural and ubiquitous term understood in the wild by all people today. The option for a person to download and add a specific event, set of contact details etc. from a uF enabled page would seem to be an optimal outcome. Fundamentally, users are downloading that data first, then adding it to an application -- usually requiring an extra step to confirm that action in a dialogue box. Seeing the uF or downloads icon then a list of available uF downloads to cherry pick from would also be easily understood and used. All the best, Jon Tan ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Regarding POSH and misuse of the microformats logo
Keith Alexander wrote: I think POSH is useful as a conceptual tool for reifying the definition of microformats: POSH Patterns: semantic practices resulting in meaningful markup Microformats: HTML-based data formats I think (at least) 3 distinctions need to be made: - 'vanilla' semantic HTML (using non-presentational html markup appropriate to the content it describes) - HTML-based data formats (actually, this is what I was looking for a term for when I suggested 'POSH') - Microformats (HTML data formats that have gone through the Microformats Process - a canon of html data formats ) Relating this discussion to real world problems we're trying to solve for a second, there may be a wider context: In Nov, 2005 I was trying to search for office space in Bristol, UK and getting garbage from search results. The problem was the legacy gap left between non semantic markup, bad labeling and machines. The gap had been filled with noise from pseudo-aggregation sites, paid directories and other Web marketing services -- a problem faced by anyone trying to use Web searches to extract up to date, usable aggregated data from poorly marked-up Web sites. That problem still persists. At the time, my experience threw up some thoughts (and a rather verbose article[1]) on semantics and specifically what I called semantic information design ethics, shortened to SIDE for brevity. I see POSH and microformats as unique but connected components of a solution to free data from Web pages and allow it to be aggregated, discovered and reused. If POSH is concerned with HTML-based data formats, or if semantic markup initiatives generally would seek to contribute to a solution for this current and real world problem then a further requirement has to be meaningful use of language in the document. I.e. Not only appropriate markup, but meaningful text itself to allows machines to recognise the page has a place in a matrix of aggregated data for a given search term. (This also applies to gateway pages on sites to proprietary datasets.) FWIW, I still talk to businesses and individuals who's legacy sites don't even have descriptive page titles or n'er a h tag in sight. In ignorance they are considering buying some SEO or Web marketing activity to compensate. It may seem a little simplistic from the lofty heights of semantic enlightenment, but there are a huge number of less-enlightened colleagues and their clients who would benefit from an initiative in this area -- not to mention the browsing public. A simple checklist of changes (including POSH) that they could make today to their markup, use of language etc could have significant benefits for everyone and make inroads to solving this real world problem. Being cynical, the bottom-line benefits for are obvious should be motivation enough for 90% of sites. More fundamental uF, IA, UI and accessibility checkpoints could also be included that they could work towards. At the moment, without including the wider context for POSH or specifying real-world benefits for implementers POSH seems on the road to just another geeky acronym that's (almost) cool for those in the know. Outreach is critical and, features, benefits /and/ incentives need to be specified to do that. Apologies for the lengthy reply. Thanks, Jon Tan [1] http://gr0w.com/articles/design/an_extra_side_to_web_standards_based_design/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Regarding POSH and misuse of the microformats logo
Ben Ward wrote: Now the whole point of this is to differentiate semantic HTML from microformats, discourage the further ambiguation of the terms. So to be honest I'm a bit put out by the badges that have been added to http://microformats.org/wiki/posh#POSH_Bling_for_your_Blog which include the microformats logo. I've provided a plain HTML / CSS alternative without the microformats logo: http://jontangerine.com/silo/microformats/posh-badge/ Please feel free to use / adapt as you like. All the best, Jon Tan ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] human readable date parsing
James Craig wrote: Tim Parkin wrote: [...] Shouldn't the focus be on trying to standardise date formats rather than trying to hide the iso date? If we can get a parser to recognise 'human readable' dates (which *is* possible, if not totally easy, http://labix.org/python-dateutil for a python version). I disagree. If you try to make other, human readable formats into a standard, they will fall short when it comes time to internationaliz(s)e it. If you can come up with a better format readable to all machine and all humans in all languages, I'll recant. I think the ISO 8601 is the best machine data format for the job. I just don't think it should be in abbr. Agreed, James. ISO 8601 is the best format. There may be an option to have a space in the notation between the date and time thus removing the T [1],[2]. E.g: 2007-05-20 12:34 This is read by JAWS 8.0 in IE6 and IE7 as two thousand seven dash zero five dash twenty twelve thirty-four (via Jon Gibbins [3]). However, RFC 3339 [4] or W3C Date and Time format note [5] doesn't feature a space in the available examples. The issue for me is we're trying to fit a machine readable date in to a human readable form. All users (whether visually impaired or not) still need to know the format or learn it as they have to learn every interface element at first contact. No matter what the notation is, it will always be fairly ambiguous. Prepending the value still seems to me to be worthy of consideration in order to provide context and help users to learn the notation in a some way. After first coming across it, at least screen reader users (and everyone else) can choose not expand attribute values for dates and times (choosing not to learn it as irrelevant), or search to learn more about the notation. Jon Tan http://gr0w.com [1] http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-time.html (Time of day section) [2] http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/iso8601.html (in the summary) [3] http://dotjay.co.uk/tests/screen-readers/microformats/datetime-design-pattern/-MM-DD%20HH-MM.php [4] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3339.txt [5] http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-datetime ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] µF Press / Starter Pack
Hi all. There's been a little discussion around a Press / Starter Pack for µF's. As Ryan King puts it, 'by covering the journalist use-case, we will also hopefully make µf's more accessible to all [non | less]-technical people'. The aim is to provide an easier way for non/less technical people discover µf's more easily along the lines of the Technorati Press Kit [1]. It would be adjusted to meet a generic less-technical person use-case and supplemental to About µf's [2], wiki Introduction [3], wiki FAQ [4], wiki press coverage [5] and presentations page [6]. The press / starter pack might include the following: - µF's 'About' simplified introduction as to *what* µf's are, *why* they are being created / are useful and *how* they can be used (currently). Could also include a list of links to: * Presentations * 'history of µF's * Graphics for use by authors / press + buttons [7] * Historical Press on µF's' * Links external blog posts around µF's for alternative explanations of µf's and sound-bites. * µF's Discuss list access - Basic FAQ along similar lines to the Technorati basic FAQ [8]. Could also contain a list of: * Implementations / Examples in The Wild wiki sections * Code examples and creators [9] * External helper articles (like the wiki Introduction) * Graphics / buttons - Press contact [ as a hCard - X2V - vCard of course :) ] I see a Starter Pack functioning as a simplified introduction and foundation. It might be an addition to either to the Introduction page or the Press page, or a wiki page on it's own. A call to action from the About page to enable journalists or anyone else to be eased in to µF's prior to diving in to the technical information might be useful. As someone who is new to µF's and having just implemented my first µF as an interface designer rather than a developer, this would of been of great benefit to me when first trying to answer my own questions regarding µF's. Others who I've introduced to µF's have asked almost identical questions that this proposal tries to answer in a more accessible form. All suggestions and comments will be much appreciated. Thanks, Jon Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] [1] http://technorati.com/press/#kit [2] http://microformats.org/about/ [3] http://microformats.org/wiki/introduction [4] http://microformats.org/wiki/faq [5] http://microformats.org/wiki/press [6] http://microformats.org/wiki/presentations [7] http://microformats.org/wiki/buttons [8] http://technorati.com/help/faq.html [9] http://microformats.org/code/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] FYI: Jeff Jarvis on microformats and Google Base
On Tuesday, November 22, 2005 1:56 PM, Scott Reynen wrote: Here's what I'd like to see: less talk of the hypothetical revolution microformats might usher in, and more actual implementations. [...] There's no need for a search engine like Google to get involved. I think we should create a large enough base of information that it requires a search engines before we waste too much time trying to pressure search engines to parse the data. I also agree that the amount of data in MFs is critical. Yes, by all means lets get on with implementation, but evangelism and work done are not mutually exclusive. More talk while the work goes on may even encourage more work to start. I agree with Brian Suda. It shouldn't be that difficult for GBase to allow a, 'file-upload type of XHTML', and a, 'Trackback/ping service' along with GBase to, 'display the data in Microformat encoded formats (where applicable).' Google wants data to attract searchers. Real data. No amount of hypothetical data will attract a search engine, regardless of how well that hypothetical data is publicized. Exactly. So how do you keep the momentum to encourage more real data to be described using MFs? Surely one target for any given MF is exactly the same as GBase's: Use of the format to allow users to find and use real data. Through publicity and understanding more hypothetical data will become actual data. It's one route to greater implementation among many. I can't help coming back to the fact that there is real need here that Base is addressing. I keep coming around to asking what do non-technical users want, what are their frustrations with their access to data now, today, and how could the development and implementation of MFs help by responding? While GBase is collecting data on products, jobs, recipes and services is there something to learn from that for MFs? Jon Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
