Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
Paul Wilkins wrote: This is a misuse of abbr at best. See: open issue! 2007-01-26 http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-issues I also see that you are the author of that open issue, and that it's been rejected. Look again. The original rejection was for a different issue. The real issue is open and valid. James ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
On Mar 13, 2007, at 7:56 PM, James Craig wrote: Look again. The original rejection was for a different issue. The real issue is open and valid. Sorry, I sent this two weeks ago but must've been offline until this morning. I've been out of the country and am just now catching up on the threads. James ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes abbr class=type title=faxTéléc/abbr.: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span A further thought - this wouldn't be an issue, if we had separate classes, rather than one class and several types, thus: span class=tel(514) 555-4561/span span class=fax(514) 555-4562/span span class=cell(514) 555-4563/span span class=textphone(514) 555-4564/span While there are obviously practical limits to the number of options a single uF can use, for cases where there are only a few alternatives, such as this one it's worth bearing in mind, as future uFs are developed. -- Andy Mabbett http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/ Welcome to the world's longest week! ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
using class to store type value (was Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard)
On 3/25/07 3:57 AM, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes abbr class=type title=faxTéléc/abbr.: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span A further thought - this wouldn't be an issue, if we had separate classes, rather than one class and several types, thus: span class=tel(514) 555-4561/span span class=fax(514) 555-4562/span span class=cell(514) 555-4563/span span class=textphone(514) 555-4564/span This was actually initially attempted and rejected because it constituted storage of content in the class attribute, which is an anti-design-pattern. The type in this case is essentially a tag on the phone number, which is human readable content. The resolution is not in an easily discoverable place unfortunately: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#ISSUE_2 Thus I am adding it to the hCard FAQ. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq#Why_not_put_type_for_tel_or_adr_into _class Thanks, Tantek ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Tim White [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Would it be legal to write abbr class=type title=fax telecoupieurTelec./abbr Thus satisfying the title for parsers and title for users? Legal in HTML? Yes. Semantically meaningful? No. Helpful to the user? No. Valid in hCard? No. -- Andy Mabbett http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/ Welcome to the world's longest week! ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Paul Wilkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes abbr class=type title=faxTéléc/abbr.: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span This thread is going in circles, On 12 March, I wrote, having suggested the same possibility, that: ...there are concerns that that's an abuse of abbr. I think that abuse is too strong a term for what's happening here. There is historical evidence that in the case of microformats, such a thing is allowed. 1) Please cite historical evidence of *different-language* abbr content and titles being used. 2) That an HTML element is being used in a particular way in the case of microformats does not mean that it is not an abuse of what was originally intended by the relevant HTML standard. -- Andy Mabbett http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/ Welcome to the world's longest week! ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ryan King [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Assuming 'Téléc' means something like 'fax', I'd do it like this: I've started a wiki page on issues around internationalisation: http://microformats.org/wiki/internationalisation -- Andy Mabbett http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/ Welcome to the world's longest week! ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
On Mar 22, 2007, at 12:10 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ryan King [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Assuming 'Téléc' means something like 'fax', I'd do it like this: I've started a wiki page on issues around internationalisation: http://microformats.org/wiki/internationalisation you spelled it wrong Andy... its spelled with a z ;) -- [ Chris Casciano ] [ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ http://placenamehere.com ] ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
On 3/21/07, Ryan King [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 20, 2007, at 2:34 AM, Paul Wilkins wrote: Ryan King wrote: On Mar 11, 2007, at 6:06 PM, Ara Pehlivanian wrote: I've got a bit of a problem with an hCard that I need to mark up and I was wondering if anyone could lend me a hand. Type is not required. Thanks for the reality check Ryan. With you knowledge and experience of microformats, do you have some advice for Ara on how to to markup the following example so that the appropriate fax numbers can be given the appropriate type as a fax number? Tél.: (514) 123-4567 Téléc.: (514) 123-4568 Assuming 'Téléc' means something like 'fax', I'd do it like this: span class=telTél.: span class=value(514) 123-4567/span/span span class=telabbr class=type title=faxTéléc./abbr: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span/span Does the following make any sense to you as a potential solution to i18n? span class=tel telTéléphone: span class=value(514) 123-4567/span/span span class=tel faxTélécopieur: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span/span as opposed to stretching the semantics of the abbr tag? A. -- Ara Pehlivanian Site: http://arapehlivanian.com/ Email GTalk: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Twitter: http://twitter.com/ara_p/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
Ara Pehlivanian wrote: On 3/21/07, Ryan King [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: span class=telTél.: span class=value(514) 123-4567/span/span span class=telabbr class=type title=faxTéléc./abbr: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span/span Does the following make any sense to you as a potential solution to i18n? span class=tel telTéléphone: span class=value(514) 123-4567/span/span span class=tel faxTélécopieur: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span/span as opposed to stretching the semantics of the abbr tag? Quoted from http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-issues REJECTED TRIED ALREADY. Using class names for the type of a tel or adr was attempted (http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#ISSUE_2), and failed in many situations. In addition, the type information is actual data, not just a property name, and thus deserves to be in the visible markup. Note that you can use abbreviations, e.g. abbr class=type title=workW:/abbr in order to present the type in a way that may better fit in with the rest of your presentation. -- Paul Wilkins ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
On 3/21/07, Paul Wilkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ara Pehlivanian wrote: On 3/21/07, Ryan King [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: span class=telTél.: span class=value(514) 123-4567/span/span span class=telabbr class=type title=faxTéléc./abbr: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span/span Does the following make any sense to you as a potential solution to i18n? span class=tel telTéléphone: span class=value(514) 123-4567/span/span span class=tel faxTélécopieur: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span/span as opposed to stretching the semantics of the abbr tag? Quoted from http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-issues REJECTED TRIED ALREADY. Using class names for the type of a tel or adr was attempted (http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#ISSUE_2), and failed in many situations. In addition, the type information is actual data, not just a property name, and thus deserves to be in the visible markup. Note that you can use abbreviations, e.g. abbr class=type title=workW:/abbr in order to present the type in a way that may better fit in with the rest of your presentation. Well then, case closed. abbr tag it is! A. -- Ara Pehlivanian Site: http://arapehlivanian.com/ Email GTalk: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Twitter: http://twitter.com/ara_p/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Paul Wilkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes a slight loosening of the semantics of the abbr element. p class=tel abbr class=type title=faxTéléc/abbr.: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span /p This thread is going in circles, On 12 March, I wrote, having suggested the same possibility, that: ...there are concerns that that's an abuse of abbr. -- Andy Mabbett http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/ Welcome to the world's longest week! ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
From: Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Paul Wilkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes a slight loosening of the semantics of the abbr element. p class=tel abbr class=type title=faxTéléc/abbr.: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span /p This thread is going in circles, On 12 March, I wrote, having suggested the same possibility, that: ...there are concerns that that's an abuse of abbr. I think that abuse is too strong a term for what's happening here. There is historical evidence that in the case of microformats, such a thing is allowed. To markup the following vcard example. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#3.3.1_TEL_Type_Definition TEL;TYPE=work,voice,pref,msg:+1-213-555-1234 span class=tel abbr class=type title=prefmy/abbr span class=typework/span abbr class=type title=voicephone/abbr, with abbr class=type title=msgvoicemail/abbr: span class=value+1-213-555-1234/span /span -- Paul Wilkins ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
Ryan King wrote: On Mar 11, 2007, at 6:06 PM, Ara Pehlivanian wrote: I've got a bit of a problem with an hCard that I need to mark up and I was wondering if anyone could lend me a hand. Type is not required. Thanks for the reality check Ryan. With you knowledge and experience of microformats, do you have some advice for Ara on how to to markup the following example so that the appropriate fax numbers can be given the appropriate type as a fax number? Tél.: (514) 123-4567 Téléc.: (514) 123-4568 -- Paul Wilkins ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
From: Ara Pehlivanian [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Microformats Discuss microformats-discuss@microformats.org
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 1:06 PM
Subject: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
I've got a bit of a problem with an hCard that I need to mark up and I
was wondering if anyone could lend me a hand.
I realize the syntax requires that a type be specified for telephone
numbers (voice, fax, etc...) and that's where my problem lies.
It's inconvenient to have the word voice appear in the markup
because that's not how the convention (at least in this neck of the
woods) is when writing out contact information. The final display
should be:
Tel.: (514) 123-4567
Fax: (514) 123-4568
Yet with the required voice/fax types it ends up like this:
Voice Tel.: (514) 123-4567
Fax Fax: (514) 123-4568
or in the French version of the page:
Voice Tél.: (514) 123-4567
Fax Téléc.: (514) 123-4568
I realize that it's simple enough to just hide the types via CSS, but
being the strict standards advocate that I am, I don't like entangling
the structural layer with the presentational one by making it
dependent on it. The idea of superfluous words littering my markup
without proper grammatical consideration doesn't sit well with me.
I thought of doing something like this:
Tel.: (514) 123-4567 (Voice)
Fax: (514) 123-4567 (Fax)
or in the French:
Tél.: (514) 123-4567 (Voice)
Téléc.: (514) 123-4568 (Fax)
But it's redundant in English and nonsensical in French.
So, dear Microformats community, please lend me a hand and help me
unravel this conundrum of mine.
I have a creative solution here for you, inspired from
Fax Téléc.: (514) 123-4568
If the page is in a foriegn language, such as French, you really should mark
up non-French words with the appropriate language attribute
HTML - lang
XHTML 1.0 - lang and xml:lang
XHTML 1.1 - xml:lang
span xml:lang=enFax/spanTéléc.: (514) 123-4568
Then you can use a stylesheet to hide the english word.
span [lang=en] {display: none;}
Let's take this one further. Markup the new code as a telephone microformat.
p class=tel
span class=type xml:lang=enFax/span
Téléc.:
span class=value(514) 123-4568/span
/p
And hide the english text inside the microformat
.tel [lang=en] {display: none;}
--
Paul Wilkins
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Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
On 3/20/07, Paul Wilkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Ara Pehlivanian [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Microformats Discuss microformats-discuss@microformats.org
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 1:06 PM
Subject: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
I've got a bit of a problem with an hCard that I need to mark up and I
was wondering if anyone could lend me a hand.
I realize the syntax requires that a type be specified for telephone
numbers (voice, fax, etc...) and that's where my problem lies.
It's inconvenient to have the word voice appear in the markup
because that's not how the convention (at least in this neck of the
woods) is when writing out contact information. The final display
should be:
Tel.: (514) 123-4567
Fax: (514) 123-4568
Yet with the required voice/fax types it ends up like this:
Voice Tel.: (514) 123-4567
Fax Fax: (514) 123-4568
or in the French version of the page:
Voice Tél.: (514) 123-4567
Fax Téléc.: (514) 123-4568
I realize that it's simple enough to just hide the types via CSS, but
being the strict standards advocate that I am, I don't like entangling
the structural layer with the presentational one by making it
dependent on it. The idea of superfluous words littering my markup
without proper grammatical consideration doesn't sit well with me.
I thought of doing something like this:
Tel.: (514) 123-4567 (Voice)
Fax: (514) 123-4567 (Fax)
or in the French:
Tél.: (514) 123-4567 (Voice)
Téléc.: (514) 123-4568 (Fax)
But it's redundant in English and nonsensical in French.
So, dear Microformats community, please lend me a hand and help me
unravel this conundrum of mine.
I have a creative solution here for you, inspired from
Fax Téléc.: (514) 123-4568
If the page is in a foriegn language, such as French, you really should mark
up non-French words with the appropriate language attribute
HTML - lang
XHTML 1.0 - lang and xml:lang
XHTML 1.1 - xml:lang
span xml:lang=enFax/spanTéléc.: (514) 123-4568
Then you can use a stylesheet to hide the english word.
span [lang=en] {display: none;}
Let's take this one further. Markup the new code as a telephone microformat.
p class=tel
span class=type xml:lang=enFax/span
Téléc.:
span class=value(514) 123-4568/span
/p
And hide the english text inside the microformat
.tel [lang=en] {display: none;}
Thanks for the work you put into this solution but I've got two
problems with it. The first being what I mentioned in my initial
posting (though I may not have been overly clear about it), but hiding
content in CSS still means that the content is there for unstyled
viewing. Secondly, the attribute selector isn't widely supported
enough to make the solution viable on most browsers (in particular
IE).
Thanks though. :-/
A.
--
Ara Pehlivanian
Site: http://arapehlivanian.com/
Email GTalk: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Twitter: http://twitter.com/ara_p/
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Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
From: Ara Pehlivanian [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 3/20/07, Paul Wilkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
p class=tel
span class=type xml:lang=enFax/span
Téléc.:
span class=value(514) 123-4568/span
/p
And hide the english text inside the microformat
.tel [lang=en] {display: none;}
Thanks for the work you put into this solution but I've got two
problems with it. The first being what I mentioned in my initial
posting (though I may not have been overly clear about it), but hiding
content in CSS still means that the content is there for unstyled
viewing. Secondly, the attribute selector isn't widely supported
enough to make the solution viable on most browsers (in particular
IE).
Thanks though. :-/
That's all right Ara. Until IE6 becomes less of an impact, there are two
other options.
One makes use of a slight loosening of the semantics of the abbr element.
p class=tel
abbr class=type title=faxTéléc/abbr.:
span class=value(514) 123-4568/span
/p
And the other discards any ability to separate the phone number by its
appropriate type, but is at least guaranteed to work in a minimal nature.
p class=telTéléc.: (514) 123-4568/p
--
Paul Wilkins
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Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ara Pehlivanian [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Tel.: (514) 123-4567 Fax: (514) 123-4568 Yet with the required voice/fax types it ends up like this: Voice Tel.: (514) 123-4567 Fax Fax: (514) 123-4568 or in the French version of the page: Voice Tél.: (514) 123-4567 Fax Téléc.: (514) 123-4568 You might use: abbr class=type title=voiceTelabbr abbr class=type title=faxFaxabbr and: abbr class=type title=voiceTélabbr abbr class=type title=faxTélécabbr Though there are concerns that that's an abuse of abbr. -- Andy Mabbett http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/ Welcome to the world's longest week! ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Paul Wilkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes p class=telabbr class=type title=faxTéléc/abbr: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span/p This is a misuse of abbr at best. See: open issue! 2007-01-26 http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-issues I also see that you are the author of that open issue, and that it's been rejected. Rejected with a request for further information, and subsequently re-opened. The abbr design pattern is the currently accepted microformat method in which to provide machine readable information for human readable content, as it's defined in the TEL Type Definition at http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#3.3.1_TEL_Type_Definition While the abbr element isn't being used strictly as it was originally intended, there are sufficient grounds to continue using it for the purpose of microformats. Can you cite evidence that it's currently accepted for non-English content, as in the above example; or clarify those sufficient grounds for its use in such cases, please? -- Andy Mabbett http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/ Welcome to the world's longest week! ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
Andy Mabbett wrote: Can you cite evidence that it's currently accepted for non-English content, as in the above example; or clarify those sufficient grounds for its use in such cases, please? This would be the first defining instance of such a use. If there are other currently accepted methods for providing non-english content with machine readable information, they can be looked in to as well. What methods are out there that provide an english term that means the same as the non-english word or phrase? All Ara wants is for his fax number to be accepted when the fax name is spelled out in French instead of English. What tools do we have to provide an english term for the parser to understand? How do we make the following understandable by the microformat system? Tél: (514) 123-4567 Téléc: (514) 123-4568 -- Paul Mark Wilkins New Zealand Tourism Online [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 109 Tuam Street Level 1 Christchurch 8011 New Zealand +64 3 963 5039 ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
Andy Mabbett wrote: Ara Pehlivanian writes Voice Tél.: (514) 123-4567 Fax Téléc.: (514) 123-4568 abbr class=type title=voiceTélabbr abbr class=type title=faxTélécabbr Though there are concerns that that's an abuse of abbr. There is a possible alternative, inspired from http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq#How_do_you_create_non_English_tooltips span class=type title=TélécFax/span: If abbr is considered to be too semantically incorrect, it's the only other currently viable method where the native language term is revealed in a tooltip. -- Paul Mark Wilkins New Zealand Tourism Online [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 109 Tuam Street Level 1 Christchurch 8011 New Zealand +64 3 963 5039 ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
From: Paul Wilkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] Andy Mabbett wrote: Ara Pehlivanian writes Voice Tél.: (514) 123-4567 Fax Téléc.: (514) 123-4568 abbr class=type title=voiceTélabbr abbr class=type title=faxTélécabbr Though there are concerns that that's an abuse of abbr. There is a possible alternative, inspired from http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq#How_do_you_create_non_English_tooltips span class=type title=TélécFax/span: Additionally, there is an existing example of ABBR used for telephones 3.3.1 TEL Type Definition at http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#3.3.1_TEL_Type_Definition span class=tel abbr class=type title=prefmy/abbr span class=typework/span abbr class=type title=voicephone/abbr, with abbr class=type title=msgvoicemail/abbr: span class=value+1-213-555-1234/span /span This is an existing microformat example where abbr is used to provide machine understandable terms for human readable content. How great is the difference between that and these examples abbr class=type title=voicephone/abbr abbr class=type title=voicetel/abbr abbr class=type title=voiceTél/abbr abbr class=type title=faxTéléc/abbr I say that because of the abbr use in TEL Type Definition, it is acceptable use to use abbr to provide microformat terms for non-understandable content. -- Paul Wilkins ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
On Mar 11, 2007, at 6:06 PM, Ara Pehlivanian wrote: I've got a bit of a problem with an hCard that I need to mark up and I was wondering if anyone could lend me a hand. I realize the syntax requires that a type be specified for telephone numbers (voice, fax, etc...) and that's where my problem lies. Type is not required. -ryan -- Ryan King [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
Paul Wilkins wrote: With the abbr design pattern, you encode the machine-readable info around the human-readable words. p class=telabbr class=type title=faxTéléc/abbr: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span/p http://microformats.org/wiki/abbr-design-pattern has more details on the abbre design pattern. This is a misuse of abbr at best. See: open issue! 2007-01-26 http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-issues James ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
On 3/12/07, James Craig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Wilkins wrote: With the abbr design pattern, you encode the machine-readable info around the human-readable words. p class=telabbr class=type title=faxTéléc/abbr: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span/p http://microformats.org/wiki/abbr-design-pattern has more details on the abbre design pattern. This is a misuse of abbr at best. See: open issue! 2007-01-26 http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-issues Okay, so what does a guy do in a case like this then? I'd previously raised the point of abbr not really representing an abbreviation in these cases in another thread, but it seems that it's nonetheless accepted as a form of abbreviation. So what do you suggest I do if I can't use abbr? A. -- Ara Pehlivanian Site: http://arapehlivanian.com/ Email GTalk: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Twitter: http://twitter.com/ara_p/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
- Original Message From Ara On 3/12/07, James Craig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Wilkins wrote: With the abbr design pattern, you encode the machine-readable info around the human-readable words. p class=telabbr class=type title=faxTéléc/abbr: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span/p This is a misuse of abbr at best. See: open issue! 2007-01-26 http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-issues Okay, so what does a guy do in a case like this then? What about something along the lines of: p class=telspan class=type title=faxTelec/span: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span/p Title is a valid HTML attribute and this avoids abusing the abbr. Tim W. tjameswhite.com/blog It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
James Craig wrote: Paul Wilkins wrote: With the abbr design pattern, you encode the machine-readable info around the human-readable words. p class=telabbr class=type title=faxTéléc/abbr: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span/p http://microformats.org/wiki/abbr-design-pattern has more details on the abbre design pattern. This is a misuse of abbr at best. See: open issue! 2007-01-26 http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-issues I also see that you are the author of that open issue, and that it's been rejected. The abbr design pattern is the currently accepted microformat method in which to provide machine readable information for human readable content, as it's defined in the TEL Type Definition at http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#3.3.1_TEL_Type_Definition span class=tel abbr class=type title=prefmy/abbr span class=typework/span abbr class=type title=voicephone/abbr, with abbr class=type title=msgvoicemail/abbr: span class=value+1-213-555-1234/span /span While the abbr element isn't being used strictly as it was originally intended, there are sufficient grounds to continue using it for the purpose of microformats. The purpose of the abbr design pattern is formally to - to make text that is human readable also formally machine readable So in this case, the Téléc is readable to (french) humans, while the title=fax is machine readable p class=telabbr class=type title=faxTéléc/abbr: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span/p The stated situations where the abbr design pattern is to be avoided is when it's used - to re-encode human text or to hide data Which would make the following an incorrect use, as the type is being hidden from view p class=telabbr class=type title=fax(514) 123-4568/abbr/p I have yet to find a succinct example of re-encoding human text. Other solutions that have been tempting have been the use of namespaces, but they have long been considered to be harmful. So failing that, what else comes even close? The DFN element? -- Paul Wilkins -- Paul Mark Wilkins New Zealand Tourism Online [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 109 Tuam Street Level 1 Christchurch 8011 New Zealand +64 3 963 5039 ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
I've got a bit of a problem with an hCard that I need to mark up and I was wondering if anyone could lend me a hand. I realize the syntax requires that a type be specified for telephone numbers (voice, fax, etc...) and that's where my problem lies. It's inconvenient to have the word voice appear in the markup because that's not how the convention (at least in this neck of the woods) is when writing out contact information. The final display should be: Tel.: (514) 123-4567 Fax: (514) 123-4568 Yet with the required voice/fax types it ends up like this: Voice Tel.: (514) 123-4567 Fax Fax: (514) 123-4568 or in the French version of the page: Voice Tél.: (514) 123-4567 Fax Téléc.: (514) 123-4568 I realize that it's simple enough to just hide the types via CSS, but being the strict standards advocate that I am, I don't like entangling the structural layer with the presentational one by making it dependent on it. The idea of superfluous words littering my markup without proper grammatical consideration doesn't sit well with me. I thought of doing something like this: Tel.: (514) 123-4567 (Voice) Fax: (514) 123-4567 (Fax) or in the French: Tél.: (514) 123-4567 (Voice) Téléc.: (514) 123-4568 (Fax) But it's redundant in English and nonsensical in French. So, dear Microformats community, please lend me a hand and help me unravel this conundrum of mine. Cheers, A. -- Ara Pehlivanian Site: http://arapehlivanian.com/ Email GTalk: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Twitter: http://twitter.com/ara_p/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
From: Ara Pehlivanian [EMAIL PROTECTED] I've got a bit of a problem with an hCard that I need to mark up and I was wondering if anyone could lend me a hand. I realize the syntax requires that a type be specified for telephone numbers (voice, fax, etc...) and that's where my problem lies. It's inconvenient to have the word voice appear in the markup because that's not how the convention (at least in this neck of the woods) is when writing out contact information. The final display should be: Tel.: (514) 123-4567 Fax: (514) 123-4568 Yet with the required voice/fax types it ends up like this: Voice Tel.: (514) 123-4567 Fax Fax: (514) 123-4568 snip So, dear Microformats community, please lend me a hand and help me unravel this conundrum of mine. Good news, the voice type is the default one, so you don't have to specify the voice type at all, and only specify for the fax (in this case). With that, you can have p class=telTel: span class=value(514) 123-4567/p p class=telspan class=typeFax/span: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span/p -- Paul Wilkins ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
On 3/11/07, Paul Wilkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good news, the voice type is the default one, so you don't have to specify the voice type at all, and only specify for the fax (in this case). With that, you can have p class=telTel: span class=value(514) 123-4567/p p class=telspan class=typeFax/span: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span/p Thanks Paul. That's really helpful. Any ideas about internationalization? How would I handle fax in French? I doubt that Télécopieur would be a valid type, since RFC 2426 doesn't seem to be geared toward types in other languages. Cheers, A. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
From: Paul Wilkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] With that, you can have p class=telTel: span class=value(514) 123-4567/p p class=telspan class=typeFax/span: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span/p Correction: p class=telTel: span class=value(514) 123-4567/span/p p class=telspan class=typeFax/span: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span/p The good thing about keeping the tel class in the paragraph is that if the type and value aren't yet understood by a parser, the appropriate content will still make it through. -- Paul Wilkins ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] An Inconvenient hCard
On 3/11/07, Paul Wilkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Ara Pehlivanian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Any ideas about internationalization? How would I handle fax in French? I doubt that Télécopieur would be a valid type, since RFC 2426 doesn't seem to be geared toward types in other languages. If the word doesn't appear in the expected english (yeah I know, us damned english) then you would have to use the abbr design pattern. With the abbr design pattern, you encode the machine-readable info around the human-readable words. p class=telabbr class=type title=faxTéléc/abbr: span class=value(514) 123-4568/span/p http://microformats.org/wiki/abbr-design-pattern has more details on the abbre design pattern. Sweet! Thank you! A. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
