Re: RE: title attribute and abbreviated classnames(Was:[uf-discuss]Currency Quickpoll: Preliminary results)
On 10/18/06, Mike Schinkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, at the risk of being shot for heresy, has anyone considered allowing this? abbr class=currency usd$5.99/abbr abbr class=currency dkk35.66 kr/abbr --- one of the main goals of microformats is to make data Human Readable. Which means visible. In your examples the USD and DKK values are no longer human readbable values - we use the abbr element alot of the time to get the Machine readable portion way from users, and give them the more friendly human-readble string. Jan 1st 2006 is much more human readable than 20060101T00+00Z but with the abbr we still have something which the users can see. (i that case Jan 1st 2006). With your example, the USD doesn't really have an equivalent human-readable value, well it does, and would be $5.99 or 35.66 kr, you even agreed that I still think this is bad semantics. I don't think USD is really a title for $5.99 So hooking usd, dkk, or other currency TYPE in the class around the whole value is not ideal, semantically or for human-readablity. OR (something tells me this is even worse, but...): abbr class=money currency-usd$5.99/abbr abbr class=money currency-dkk35.66 kr/abbr --- from a parsing stand point, this gets to be a tricky issue as well. Besides the reasons mentioned above, there is another issue with '-' seperated values. What you are attempting to accomplish is to sort of double-pack the value currency-XYZ, by saying that this is a currency AND it is of a given type. The trouble with this is that when we mint an XMDP file for the microformat we have an enumerated list of values for each class. So we would have to have a value for each 'currency-ABC' to 'currency-XYZ'. If/When we add a new currency or a ABC value changed (not likely, but hey, they introduced the Euro!) we would have to go back and edit the XMDP and since parsers are to use that as WHAT are legal values, we'd have to then extend/update the XMDP to account for the new currency-ZZZ value, then increment the version number and all the parsers would have to be update with the new information, etc it is much easier to say class=type then leave the VALUE of that element to be open-ended rather than an enumerated list of values. the other bonus is that it doesn't force authors into one way of doing things, both of the following are still valid: abbr class=type title=usd$/abbr3.99 3.99span class=typeUSD/span I'm sure there is something just so wrong about this, but part of the reason I'm on this list is to learn. So why not? --- the previous answers were sort of techy, do they make sense? or are you looking for a more concrete explaination? I personally like this idea: span class=moneyabbr class=currency title=USD$/abbrspan class=amount5.99/span/span It has worked well for ADR, TEL, EMAIL in hCard and is also being explored for UIDs. span class=uidspan class=typeISBN/span:span class=value1234567890/span/span -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: RE: title attribute and abbreviated classnames(Was:[uf-discuss]Currency Quickpoll: Preliminary results)
On 10/19/06, Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally like this idea: span class=moneyabbr class=currency title=USD$/abbrspan class=amount5.99/span/span It has worked well for ADR, TEL, EMAIL in hCard and is also being explored for UIDs. I like that idea too, there've been a few similar variations suggested and they seem the right general approach. I think it would also make sense to add some rules that could compact the markup in common cases. For instance, we could introduce the implied optimisation that if there is no explicit 'amount' then the amount could be taken to be everything inside the 'money' that isn't the 'currency'. i.e. span class=moneyabbr class=currency title=USD$/abbr5.99/span would be equivalent to your example above. That would simplify the markup in a large number of the cases, and I don't think would complicate the parsing *too* much. -Ciaran McNulty ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: Re: RE: title attribute and abbreviated classnames(Was:[uf-discuss]Currency Quickpoll: Preliminary results)
Hi, I've been following this discussion and I would like to add that you might even get more characters than commas and periods inside an ammount (which would make the regexp even more complex).. according to this guide http://www.thefinancials.com/vortex/CurrencyFormats.html you might have: ' used as thousands separators in switzerland (don't know how accurate this is though). It is interesting by seeing that guide that there are plenty of variations in how the currency sign/currency identifier and the amount are expressed around the world. So any optimization should take this into account. Emiliano MartÃnez Luque http://www.metonymie.com On 10/19/06, Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/19/06, Ciaran McNulty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For instance, we could introduce the implied optimisation that if there is no explicit 'amount' then the amount could be taken to be everything inside the 'money' that isn't the 'currency'. i.e. span class=moneyabbr class=currency title=USD$/abbr5.99/span would be equivalent to your example above. That would simplify the markup in a large number of the cases, and I don't think would complicate the parsing *too* much. --- while i would dissagree that it is infact complicated for parsers, that is not our target audience. i know in the past, i've mentioned things like oh, it would be so much easier for X2V if and the response has always been no, we should favour the publishers. So, i am willing to explore some optimizations at the risk of adding some complexity to the parsers. To be more specific the issue of not having a class=value or class=amount means that there is no easy XPath expression to extract the data. //[EMAIL PROTECTED]money] would get you both the $ and the 5.99 //[EMAIL PROTECTED]money]//[EMAIL PROTECTED]currency] will get you the currency value $ (you actually need to check first the type if name()='abbr' then use @title ...) //[EMAIL PROTECTED]money]//[EMAIL PROTECTED]amount] would easily get you 5.99 we then say that class=amount is optional then the XPath would need to be something like //[EMAIL PROTECTED]money]//[EMAIL PROTECTED]currency]::next-sibling() to get the #text node that is next to the $, but it could actually be before it 35.99 kr, so there is more checking involved. (and that is assuming my XPath is correct?) Depending on how you extract MFs it might be easier or impossible. Your REGEX milage may vary... But i am willing to discuss optimizations and any issues. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
RE: title attribute and abbreviated classnames(Was:[uf-discuss]Currency Quickpoll: Preliminary results)
span class=money title=USD$5.99/span I still think this is bad semantics. I don't think USD is really a title for $5.99. I'll accept that. I'd propose this as an alternative: abbr class=currency title=USD$/abbr5.99 Okay... But is it a good idea to have a microformat as a prefix/suffix instead of as a container? (general question - I hope it hasn't been answered before...) If so, you'll also need (note the space after 35.66): 35.66 abbr class=currency title=DKKkr/abbr However, at the risk of being shot for heresy, has anyone considered allowing this? abbr class=currency usd$5.99/abbr abbr class=currency dkk35.66 kr/abbr OR (something tells me this is even worse, but...): abbr class=money currency-usd$5.99/abbr abbr class=money currency-dkk35.66 kr/abbr I'm sure there is something just so wrong about this, but part of the reason I'm on this list is to learn. So why not? Additionally, that would allow: abbr class=currency usd title=5.99Five Dollars and 99 cents/abbr abbr class=currency dkk title=35.66Thirty Five point 66 Kroners/abbr OR (for orthogonality): abbr class=money currency-usd title=5.99Five Dollars and 99 cents/abbr abbr class=money currency-dkk title=35.66Thirty Five point 66 Kroners/abbr Just a thought...? -Mike P.S. Damn I wish HTML had allowed rel for all tags including span and abbr. Or that we could just use it anyway and not get shot for heresy. :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Reynen Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:30 AM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: title attribute and abbreviated classnames(Was:[uf-discuss]Currency Quickpoll: Preliminary results) I've starting replying to this a few times and become stuck in trying to fit what I'm trying to say in the existing thread, so I'm just going to make some points completely detached from the thread. First, I think Mike is right that the vast majority of published money formats allow parsers to infer the distinction between the currency symbol and the amount. But this inference is already possible without a microformat. What's missing currently is: 1) an indication of which specific currency the symbol refers to. 2) the ability to markup money that doesn't fit this pattern I think it's best to either cover #1 or both, but I think it's too complicated for publishers to provide what amounts to two distinct microformats depending on a relatively complex pattern definition. That is, if we're going simple (only #1), I think we should go only simple, and add the complex form to cover #2 later. So to cover #1, Mike has suggested: span class=money title=USD$5.99/span I still think this is bad semantics. I don't think USD is really a title for $5.99. I'd propose this as an alternative: abbr class=currency title=USD$/abbr5.99 That is, markup the currency as currency, and treat any adjacent numbers as the amount. To cover #2, I think we need an additional class=money container, and a class=amount markup for the amount, and this could be added without changing the parsing rules for the simple form I've suggested above. I think it would be best to start with either simple or complex and look at adding the alternative after the microformat has gained some adoption. I don't think regular expressions should be included in the spec at all. If we're going to define amounts based on character ranges, we should describe those character ranges in plain English because most people, even most tech geeks, don't understand regular expressions at all. Peace, Scott On Oct 15, 2006, at 4:40 PM, Mike Schinkel wrote: Scott: Thanks for the reply. If probably got confusing on my part; I will try to resolve that here if possible. I thought what you suggested was to allow for explicit differentiation between the currency identifier and the amount, but in certain cases where such differentiation can be made by matching a regular expression, allow for markup without explicit differentiation, leaving the differentiation implicitly to the parser to figure out. For example, this would be valid:... because it does follow the pattern, where everything that's not within a certain character group is considered a currency symbol (i.e. $). If this isn't what you're suggesting, then I'm not clear on what you're suggesting. You got it 100%. But I did make a mistake in my example as I didn't mean to include alpha [A-Za-z]. It should just have been digits, periods, and commas [0-9\.\,]; everything else would be the currency symbol. I wasn't explicit about the following, but I will be now; no spaces (or nbsp;) and the currency figure must be contiguous and either prefix or suffix a collection of digits. Anythings else, and you need the complexity. Although I am not good with regex, I opened my regex book and my regex test
Re: title attribute and abbreviated classnames(Was:[uf-discuss]Currency Quickpoll: Preliminary results)
On Oct 18, 2006, at 6:54 PM, Stephen Paul Weber wrote: I'd propose this as an alternative: abbr class=currency title=USD$/abbr5.99 What happened to: span class=moneyabbr class=currency title=USD$/abbrspan class=amount5.99/span/span I continue to prefer that, but I think Mike is pushing for less verbose markup, and I'm trying to explore how less verbose markup could communicate the same information with minimal assumptions. The assumptions here are: 1) any numbers, decimals, and commas adjacent to a tag with class=currency have an implied surrounding tag with class=amount 2) any adjacent currency and amount have an implied surrounding tag with class=money Following those two assumptions, we end up at the markup you supplied, without actually typing all that. Does that solve the whole problem and give us an extra usefulness at the same time I think the relevant questions here are: 1) what exactly is that extra usefulness? and 2) is it worth the cost of more verbose markup? I have a vague suspicion the answer to the latter is yes, but I haven't yet been able to clarify the answer to the former myself just yet, and Mike makes persuasive arguments for minimizing the markup. I'd be interested in others' thoughts on this. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
