RE: [uf-discuss] ANN: The Purpose of Microformats
Thanks Rob. Good suggestion. I have added two new slides - one that shows an example Microformat, the second shows an aggregator collecting Microformats in Web pages. http://www.xfront.com/microformats/Purpose-of-Microformats.html Thanks! /Roger -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rob Unsworth Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 7:56 PM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: RE: [uf-discuss] ANN: The Purpose of Microformats On Sun, 15 Oct 2006, Costello, Roger L. wrote: Thanks a lot Tantek. That's exactly the kind of feedback I was seeking. I have made a few changes (added a couple new slides, modified a few slides). Please let me know if this now captures the purpose of Microformats. http://www.xfront.com/microformats/Purpose-of-Microformats.html Roger, As someone new to microformats and normally just lurking and learning I did notice, at least to me, a flaw in your slides. At the beginning you give examples using divs and spans and also an unordered list. It would be more understandable if the presentation was rounded off by having a similar microformat example as part of the conclusion. Rob ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
RE: [uf-discuss] ANN: The Purpose of Microformats
Roger: Nit: Semantic Hooks mentions class, rel, and rev but not title. Next, my first thought was I found the beginning confusing. The first slide I read is Purpose of Microformats and the second is (X)HTML. As I read the second (and third) I'm trying to figure out where the microformat examples are. I guess I was expecting and introductory statement about the purpose and then an overview of what your are going to tell explain. You know, the old Tell 'em what you're going to tell 'em, then tell 'em, then tell 'em what you said. I understand why you are giving background on XHTML, but for someone who doesn't already understand the subject I think the current organization could be very disorienting. That said, I started jotting down notes until I had completely restructured your presentation (based on my 7+ years experience in developing programming courseware and delivering those courses.) I'll include my note below my signature, but please accept them as merely suggestions to consider and, as I have no price of authorship, feel free to incorporate or discard any of my suggestions. Also please note, I didn't flesh everything out, so if you do incorporate a significant number of my suggestions you'll certainly need to rework some of it as I didn't flesh it out exhaustively, and in two case I left to be written with notes. JMTCW. -Mike Schinkel http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blog http://www.welldesignedurls.org/ = * Title Slide * Purpose of Microformats -- The purpose of microformats is to enrich the semantics of web Pages * To be covered -- What Problem do Microformats Solve? - See USe-cases for Microformats below, To be written -- Background: Let's Define Web Pages - Use (X)HTML page, Browser Rendering, (X)Html Semantics -- Goals and Constraints Chosen for Microformats - Use Microformat Goals (See below, to be written) - These Constraints are Sacred (from below) -- Example Microformat - Use existing -- Benefits - Use Aggregating Microformats, Other? -- Summary - Use (edited version of) Purpose of Microformats (Revised) -- Brilliance of Microformats - Use existing * Use-cases for Microformats -- (I don't think I've an explicit list mentioned anywhere yet) -- (If would be good to get a common set of use-cases to help everyone target the same outcomes) * Microformat Goals -- (This I know instintively but can't put into words in the context of goals. -- (Nothing I could find on Microformats.org is explicit in defining goals) -- (If would be good if there were a consensus, or at least if we were all aware.) * These Constraints were considered Sacred: -- No Update to existing Browsers Required - Use No New Markup (Change Markup to (X)HTML Tags and add Required) - Use Semantic Hooks, rename to Enhancing Semantics using Existing (X)HTML Tags - Use Many Ways to Mark Up Information, rename to Any Element can be Described -- No Impact to Presentation - Use existing slide -- Controlled process to eliminate Chaos - Use Standardized Class Values = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Costello, Roger L. Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:28 AM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: RE: [uf-discuss] ANN: The Purpose of Microformats Thanks Rob. Good suggestion. I have added two new slides - one that shows an example Microformat, the second shows an aggregator collecting Microformats in Web pages. http://www.xfront.com/microformats/Purpose-of-Microformats.html Thanks! /Roger -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rob Unsworth Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 7:56 PM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: RE: [uf-discuss] ANN: The Purpose of Microformats On Sun, 15 Oct 2006, Costello, Roger L. wrote: Thanks a lot Tantek. That's exactly the kind of feedback I was seeking. I have made a few changes (added a couple new slides, modified a few slides). Please let me know if this now captures the purpose of Microformats. http://www.xfront.com/microformats/Purpose-of-Microformats.html Roger, As someone new to microformats and normally just lurking and learning I did notice, at least to me, a flaw in your slides. At the beginning you give examples using divs and spans and also an unordered list. It would be more understandable if the presentation was rounded off by having a similar microformat example as part of the conclusion. Rob ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss
RE: [uf-discuss] ANN: The Purpose of Microformats
Another nit I just realized. I think you need to point out that it is legal to have more than one class in a class attribute (i.e. class=foo bar). I always assumed that you could have only have one class per element. My immediate reaction to Microformats was they were not practical until my misconception was cleared after which I became a convert. I would guess a lot of people might have a similar misconception. -Mike -Original Message- From: Mike Schinkel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 9:45 PM To: 'Microformats Discuss' Subject: RE: [uf-discuss] ANN: The Purpose of Microformats Roger: Nit: Semantic Hooks mentions class, rel, and rev but not title. Next, my first thought was I found the beginning confusing. The first slide I read is Purpose of Microformats and the second is (X)HTML. As I read the second (and third) I'm trying to figure out where the microformat examples are. I guess I was expecting and introductory statement about the purpose and then an overview of what your are going to tell explain. You know, the old Tell 'em what you're going to tell 'em, then tell 'em, then tell 'em what you said. I understand why you are giving background on XHTML, but for someone who doesn't already understand the subject I think the current organization could be very disorienting. That said, I started jotting down notes until I had completely restructured your presentation (based on my 7+ years experience in developing programming courseware and delivering those courses.) I'll include my note below my signature, but please accept them as merely suggestions to consider and, as I have no price of authorship, feel free to incorporate or discard any of my suggestions. Also please note, I didn't flesh everything out, so if you do incorporate a significant number of my suggestions you'll certainly need to rework some of it as I didn't flesh it out exhaustively, and in two case I left to be written with notes. JMTCW. -Mike Schinkel http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blog http://www.welldesignedurls.org/ = * Title Slide * Purpose of Microformats -- The purpose of microformats is to enrich the semantics of web Pages * To be covered -- What Problem do Microformats Solve? - See USe-cases for Microformats below, To be written -- Background: Let's Define Web Pages - Use (X)HTML page, Browser Rendering, (X)Html Semantics -- Goals and Constraints Chosen for Microformats - Use Microformat Goals (See below, to be written) - These Constraints are Sacred (from below) -- Example Microformat - Use existing -- Benefits - Use Aggregating Microformats, Other? -- Summary - Use (edited version of) Purpose of Microformats (Revised) -- Brilliance of Microformats - Use existing * Use-cases for Microformats -- (I don't think I've an explicit list mentioned anywhere yet) -- (If would be good to get a common set of use-cases to help everyone target the same outcomes) * Microformat Goals -- (This I know instintively but can't put into words in the context of goals. -- (Nothing I could find on Microformats.org is explicit in defining goals) -- (If would be good if there were a consensus, or at least if we were all aware.) * These Constraints were considered Sacred: -- No Update to existing Browsers Required - Use No New Markup (Change Markup to (X)HTML Tags and add Required) - Use Semantic Hooks, rename to Enhancing Semantics using Existing (X)HTML Tags - Use Many Ways to Mark Up Information, rename to Any Element can be Described -- No Impact to Presentation - Use existing slide -- Controlled process to eliminate Chaos - Use Standardized Class Values = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Costello, Roger L. Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:28 AM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: RE: [uf-discuss] ANN: The Purpose of Microformats Thanks Rob. Good suggestion. I have added two new slides - one that shows an example Microformat, the second shows an aggregator collecting Microformats in Web pages. http://www.xfront.com/microformats/Purpose-of-Microformats.html Thanks! /Roger -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rob Unsworth Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 7:56 PM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: RE: [uf-discuss] ANN: The Purpose of Microformats On Sun, 15 Oct 2006, Costello, Roger L. wrote: Thanks a lot Tantek. That's exactly the kind of feedback I was seeking. I have made a few changes (added a couple new slides, modified a few slides). Please let me know if this now captures the purpose of Microformats. http://www.xfront.com/microformats/Purpose-of-Microformats.html Roger, As someone new to microformats and normally just lurking and learning I did notice, at least to me, a flaw in your slides. At the beginning you give examples using divs and spans and also
Re: [uf-discuss] ANN: The Purpose of Microformats
Mike, I've added the lack of goals to wiki-feedback. I've also added to the faq http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#Class_semantics to add your point about multiple classes in elements. It needs some polishing; I did little more than ask the question and then answer yes. Ben On 10/16/06, Mike Schinkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another nit I just realized. I think you need to point out that it is legal to have more than one class in a class attribute (i.e. class=foo bar). I always assumed that you could have only have one class per element. My immediate reaction to Microformats was they were not practical until my misconception was cleared after which I became a convert. I would guess a lot of people might have a similar misconception. -Mike -Original Message- From: Mike Schinkel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 9:45 PM To: 'Microformats Discuss' Subject: RE: [uf-discuss] ANN: The Purpose of Microformats Roger: Nit: Semantic Hooks mentions class, rel, and rev but not title. Next, my first thought was I found the beginning confusing. The first slide I read is Purpose of Microformats and the second is (X)HTML. As I read the second (and third) I'm trying to figure out where the microformat examples are. I guess I was expecting and introductory statement about the purpose and then an overview of what your are going to tell explain. You know, the old Tell 'em what you're going to tell 'em, then tell 'em, then tell 'em what you said. I understand why you are giving background on XHTML, but for someone who doesn't already understand the subject I think the current organization could be very disorienting. That said, I started jotting down notes until I had completely restructured your presentation (based on my 7+ years experience in developing programming courseware and delivering those courses.) I'll include my note below my signature, but please accept them as merely suggestions to consider and, as I have no price of authorship, feel free to incorporate or discard any of my suggestions. Also please note, I didn't flesh everything out, so if you do incorporate a significant number of my suggestions you'll certainly need to rework some of it as I didn't flesh it out exhaustively, and in two case I left to be written with notes. JMTCW. -Mike Schinkel http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blog http://www.welldesignedurls.org/ = * Title Slide * Purpose of Microformats -- The purpose of microformats is to enrich the semantics of web Pages * To be covered -- What Problem do Microformats Solve? - See USe-cases for Microformats below, To be written -- Background: Let's Define Web Pages - Use (X)HTML page, Browser Rendering, (X)Html Semantics -- Goals and Constraints Chosen for Microformats - Use Microformat Goals (See below, to be written) - These Constraints are Sacred (from below) -- Example Microformat - Use existing -- Benefits - Use Aggregating Microformats, Other? -- Summary - Use (edited version of) Purpose of Microformats (Revised) -- Brilliance of Microformats - Use existing * Use-cases for Microformats -- (I don't think I've an explicit list mentioned anywhere yet) -- (If would be good to get a common set of use-cases to help everyone target the same outcomes) * Microformat Goals -- (This I know instintively but can't put into words in the context of goals. -- (Nothing I could find on Microformats.org is explicit in defining goals) -- (If would be good if there were a consensus, or at least if we were all aware.) * These Constraints were considered Sacred: -- No Update to existing Browsers Required - Use No New Markup (Change Markup to (X)HTML Tags and add Required) - Use Semantic Hooks, rename to Enhancing Semantics using Existing (X)HTML Tags - Use Many Ways to Mark Up Information, rename to Any Element can be Described -- No Impact to Presentation - Use existing slide -- Controlled process to eliminate Chaos - Use Standardized Class Values = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Costello, Roger L. Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:28 AM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: RE: [uf-discuss] ANN: The Purpose of Microformats Thanks Rob. Good suggestion. I have added two new slides - one that shows an example Microformat, the second shows an aggregator collecting Microformats in Web pages. http://www.xfront.com/microformats/Purpose-of-Microformats.html Thanks! /Roger -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rob Unsworth Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 7:56 PM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: RE: [uf-discuss] ANN: The Purpose of Microformats On Sun, 15 Oct 2006, Costello, Roger L. wrote: Thanks a lot Tantek. That's exactly the kind of feedback I was seeking. I have made a few changes (added a couple new slides, modified a few slides). Please let me know
RE: [uf-discuss] ANN: The Purpose of Microformats
Thanks a lot Tantek. That's exactly the kind of feedback I was seeking. I have made a few changes (added a couple new slides, modified a few slides). Please let me know if this now captures the purpose of Microformats. http://www.xfront.com/microformats/Purpose-of-Microformats.html Thanks! /Roger -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tantek Çelik Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:20 PM To: microformats-discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] ANN: The Purpose of Microformats On 10/14/06 1:50 PM, Costello, Roger L. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Folks, I have written a short presentation titled, The Purpose of Microformats. http://www.xfront.com/microformats/Purpose-of-Microformats.html I welcome your comments and suggestions. Roger, this looks *excellent*. One major comment. What you have described is not the purpose of microformats. What you have described is the purpose of using semantic class names, which modern web developers have been doing in large numbers since 2002, and originally as early as some of the earliest work that Dan Connolly did at W3C. http://microformats.org/wiki/semantic-class-names Microformats are *much* more than just using semantic class names, and unless you cover the differences, then it may actually cause *more* confusion to people if they get the impression that simply by using semantic values in the class attribute, that they are using microformats. E.g. here is a slide from a recent presentation that touches on some of the key differences: http://tantek.com/presentations/2006/09/microformats-practices/#slide23 Thanks, Tantek ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
RE: [uf-discuss] ANN: The Purpose of Microformats
On Sun, 15 Oct 2006, Costello, Roger L. wrote: Thanks a lot Tantek. That's exactly the kind of feedback I was seeking. I have made a few changes (added a couple new slides, modified a few slides). Please let me know if this now captures the purpose of Microformats. http://www.xfront.com/microformats/Purpose-of-Microformats.html Roger, As someone new to microformats and normally just lurking and learning I did notice, at least to me, a flaw in your slides. At the beginning you give examples using divs and spans and also an unordered list. It would be more understandable if the presentation was rounded off by having a similar microformat example as part of the conclusion. Rob ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] ANN: The Purpose of Microformats
On 10/14/06 1:50 PM, Costello, Roger L. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Folks, I have written a short presentation titled, The Purpose of Microformats. http://www.xfront.com/microformats/Purpose-of-Microformats.html I welcome your comments and suggestions. Roger, this looks *excellent*. One major comment. What you have described is not the purpose of microformats. What you have described is the purpose of using semantic class names, which modern web developers have been doing in large numbers since 2002, and originally as early as some of the earliest work that Dan Connolly did at W3C. http://microformats.org/wiki/semantic-class-names Microformats are *much* more than just using semantic class names, and unless you cover the differences, then it may actually cause *more* confusion to people if they get the impression that simply by using semantic values in the class attribute, that they are using microformats. E.g. here is a slide from a recent presentation that touches on some of the key differences: http://tantek.com/presentations/2006/09/microformats-practices/#slide23 Thanks, Tantek ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
