Re: [Solved] Edit: Installation amd64 7.5: How to access the distribution sets on the USB stick?
On Sat, Jun 8, 2024, at 4:01 PM, Jan Stary wrote: > On Jun 08 15:33:15, rfab...@mhsmail.ch wrote: >> The issue was the USB stick did not appear in the disk selection dialog. > > That's hard to believe. If the installer booted from it, > it must have been recognized as one of the sd? disks > during the bsd.rd boot. > > Jan Not hard to believe at all. USB 3.0/XHCI has long been very quirky across hardware, firmware, and OS stacks. For years, the popular PC Engines apu2 platform would happily boot USB 3 flash drive(s) for me and then decline to find the root filesystem on the same stick further along in the OpenBSD boot process. Using USB 2 was a viable workaround. I believe that particular case has since been resolved (BIOS or OS or both, I forget which), but it wasn't the only one I've run into. Brian
Re: [Solved] Edit: Installation amd64 7.5: How to access the distribution sets on the USB stick?
On Sat, Jun 8, 2024 at 3:09 PM Jan Stary wrote:
> On Jun 08 16:52:58, rfab...@mhsmail.ch wrote:
> > Am 2024-06-08 15:50, schrieb Otto Moerbeek:
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jun 08, 2024 at 03:33:15PM +0200, rfab...@mhsmail.ch wrote:
> > >
> > Am 2024-06-08 08:28, schrieb Jan Stary:
> > > >
> > > > > When asked where the file sets are,
> > > > > you tell the installer where on the USB stick they are.
> > > >
> > > > The issue was the USB stick did not appear in the disk selection
> > > > dialog.
> > >
> > > Why do you think that? It is likely to be one of the sd disks.
> > >
> > > -Otto
> >
> > The issue was the USB stick did not appear in the disk selection dialog
> > when it was inserted into one of the front USB ports of the PC.
>
> To be clear: you booted from it, then removed it,
> and then inserted it again into this (front) USB slot?
>
> > Inserting it into one of the back USB ports was the solution: It
> > appeared as 'sd3', as expected ('sd0, sd1, sd2' being the 3 internal
> SSDs).
>
> But then you removed it again, during that same install,
> and inserted it again into one of the rear USB slots,
> and it appeared as sd3?
>
> Jan
>
>
Maybe a dmesg from the installer would be useful...
Re: [Solved] Edit: Installation amd64 7.5: How to access the distribution sets on the USB stick?
On Jun 08 16:52:58, rfab...@mhsmail.ch wrote:
> Am 2024-06-08 15:50, schrieb Otto Moerbeek:
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 08, 2024 at 03:33:15PM +0200, rfab...@mhsmail.ch wrote:
> >
> Am 2024-06-08 08:28, schrieb Jan Stary:
> > >
> > > > When asked where the file sets are,
> > > > you tell the installer where on the USB stick they are.
> > >
> > > The issue was the USB stick did not appear in the disk selection
> > > dialog.
> >
> > Why do you think that? It is likely to be one of the sd disks.
> >
> > -Otto
>
> The issue was the USB stick did not appear in the disk selection dialog
> when it was inserted into one of the front USB ports of the PC.
To be clear: you booted from it, then removed it,
and then inserted it again into this (front) USB slot?
> Inserting it into one of the back USB ports was the solution: It
> appeared as 'sd3', as expected ('sd0, sd1, sd2' being the 3 internal SSDs).
But then you removed it again, during that same install,
and inserted it again into one of the rear USB slots,
and it appeared as sd3?
Jan
Re: [Solved] Edit: Installation amd64 7.5
On Jun 08 15:33:15, rfab...@mhsmail.ch wrote: > - The "INSTALLATION NOTES for OpenBSD/amd64 7.5" say: "It may save much > time and frustration to download the distribution sets to a local server > or disk and perform the installation from there, rather than directly > from the internet." In this day and age, I find it more frustrating and time consuming to download something to be dd'd onto a USB stick than simply run sysupgrade -sf and go for a coffee. Jan
Re: [Solved] Edit: Installation amd64 7.5: How to access the distribution sets on the USB stick?
On Jun 08 15:33:15, rfab...@mhsmail.ch wrote: > The issue was the USB stick did not appear in the disk selection dialog. That's hard to believe. If the installer booted from it, it must have been recognized as one of the sd? disks during the bsd.rd boot. Jan
Re: Share one of machines IP via WireGuard
On Sat, 08 Jun 2024 15:56:06 +0100, Stuart Henderson wrote: > > I think this should be possible with the standard route table, without > route-to. Essentially you need: > > 1. your machine to answer arp for the wg ip so other hosts will send > ethernet packets to it > > 2. your machine to not be configured with the wg ip itself > > 3. route entries such that those packets end up sent out the wg interface > (you may possibly need a route command with -ifp wg0) > Thanks, after re-reading map page for route I was able to figure it out in quite simple way, without NAT, routing domain, dedicated MAC which was added to separate things with hope to make things easy. So, here the resulted config: Client: rdomain 1 wgrtable 0 wgkey ... wgpeer ... \ wgendpoint 1.2.3.4 51820 \ wgaip 0.0.0.0/0 \ wgpka 25 \ wgpsk ... inet 1.2.4.5/28 up !route -T 1 add default 1.2.4.1 Server: wgkey ... wgpeer ... \ wgaip 1.2.4.5/32 \ wgpka 25 \ wgpsk ... wgport 51820 inet 127.255.255.255/32 up !route add -inet 1.2.4.5 -llinfo -link -static -iface \$if Without inet 127.255.255.255/32 adding a static route fails as: add host 1.2.4.5: gateway wg0: Network is unreachable -- wbr, Kirill
Re: Share one of machines IP via WireGuard
On 2024-06-08, Kirill A Korinsky wrote: > On Fri, 07 Jun 2024 16:25:48 +0100, > Stuart Henderson wrote: >> >> I think you'll need proxy ARP then. >> > > After a few attempts to make it works, I think I need help. > > My setup. > > Server: where em0 is uplink with routed 1.2.3.4/24 and 1.2.4.5/24 with > expected gateway 1.2.3.1 and 1.2.4.1, em0 is included into bridge0 and > 1.2.3.4/24 is configured as input point at route domain 0. > > To make things simpler each IP is associeted with it's own MAC address and > switch expects that 1.2.4.5 with 00:50:56:01:1d:40. So, I have: > > $ cat /etc/hostname.vether1 > > lladdr 00:50:56:01:1d:40 > rdomain 2 > up > !arp -s 1.2.4.5 00:50:56:01:1d:40 pub > > $ cat /etc/hostname.wg0 > rdomain 2 > wgkey ... > wgpeer ... \ > wgaip 1.2.4.5/32 \ > wgpka 25 > wgport 51820 > wgrtable 0 > up > $ rdomains will at least complicate things as you then need a way to "leak" routes between rdomains, plus I don't think you need them. I don't think the vether is doing anything useful either, and I think the separate MAC is working against you > when I run ping from client to 1.2.4.1 I see traffic on wg0 on the server, > but I can't figure out how to redirect it to vether1 and send to the switch. > > I feel that I miss some pice. I see route-to in pf.conf which probably the > missed pice but I can't figure out how to use it. I think this should be possible with the standard route table, without route-to. Essentially you need: 1. your machine to answer arp for the wg ip so other hosts will send ethernet packets to it 2. your machine to not be configured with the wg ip itself 3. route entries such that those packets end up sent out the wg interface (you may possibly need a route command with -ifp wg0) > -- > wbr, Kirill > > -- Please keep replies on the mailing list.
Re: [Solved] Edit: Installation amd64 7.5: How to access the distribution sets on the USB stick?
Am 2024-06-08 15:50, schrieb Otto Moerbeek:
On Sat, Jun 08, 2024 at 03:33:15PM +0200, rfab...@mhsmail.ch wrote:
Am 2024-06-08 08:28, schrieb Jan Stary:
> When asked where the file sets are,
> you tell the installer where on the USB stick they are.
The issue was the USB stick did not appear in the disk selection
dialog.
Why do you think that? It is likely to be one of the sd disks.
-Otto
The issue was the USB stick did not appear in the disk selection dialog
when it was inserted into one of the front USB ports of the PC.
Inserting it into one of the back USB ports was the solution: It
appeared as 'sd3', as expected ('sd0, sd1, sd2' being the 3 internal
SSDs).
Best regards
Rolf
[Solved] Edit: Installation amd64 7.5: How to access the distribution sets on the USB stick?
Dear Nick, dear Otto Many thanks for your tips! I have tried these steps before asking for help, but without success. Then, on reading your mails, it occurred to me I could try one of the back USB ports of my PC instead of the front ones. And bingo, the USB stick appeared as 'sd3' in the disk selection dialogue of the step "Let's install the sets!" :) On selecting the distribution sets, there is a hint about the missing 'SHA256.sig' file, which makes sense. But I have verified the downloaded 'install75.img' file as well as compared the SHA256 sum of the USB stick with the SHA256 sum of the 'install75.img' file. So it is safe to continue without verification. Correct? Again, many thanks! Best regards Rolf Am 2024-06-08 09:57, schrieb Otto Moerbeek: On Fri, Jun 07, 2024 at 07:05:49PM -0400, Nick Holland wrote: On 6/7/24 18:26, rfab...@mhsmail.ch wrote: > Edit: I have just found in Michael W. Lucas' "OpenBSD Mastery: > Filesystems" that "the rd recovery disk image is the OpenBSD install > environment", not the USB stick. But my question (see below) remains the > same. > > Am 2024-06-07 23:21, schrieb rfab...@mhsmail.ch: > Dear community > > I have copied the 'install75.img' to a USB stick, booted from it and > chosen the "(I)nstall" option. My intention is to install the > distribution sets from the stick, and not via http, because I'd like to > install OpenBSD on our 4 home office PCs without downloading the sets 4 well...OpenBSD is small, and bandwidth is cheap/free. But yeah, I was "recycling" back when it was called being "a cheap bastard", I get it. > Escaping to a shell and entering 'sysctl hw.disknames' shows: 'sd0, sd1, > sd2, rd0'. 'sdX' are the 3 internal SSDs. Am I right in assuming that > 'rd0' is the USB stick? as you have discovered...no. > Installation step "Let's install the sets!": > I have chosen the option to install from a local disk partition, and > answered with "partition not mounted". correct. > Issue: > The installer shows 'sd0 sd1 sd2' as available disks, but not the USB > stick 'rd0'. also correct. Besides, rd0 is mounted. But it is also wrong. > Question: > What do I have to do to make the USB installation stick available for > accessing the distribution sets? Concerning 'install75.img', the > "Installation notes" say: "An install or upgrade can be done with a > USB key without network connectivity." > But how? dmesg|grep sd will show you what all the devices are, pick your USB drive. It will guess correctly after that. Or press ? at the right prompt and the installer will show you the disk details so you can pick the right one. -Otto > Installing the sets via http works without any issues, but that's not > my plan for the remaining and future installations. But here's an easier way, if you understand a bit of what is going on. The system booted from bsd.rd, and it has utilities in "rd0". At this point, it is NOT ACTUALLY USING the USB drive. So...you can now unplug and plug it back in...and you will get some white on blue text telling you what device was unplugged and what was plugged in. Of course, you don't really want to do that if you don't know for sure that the drive is unused, but if things are as you describe it, it's safe. But most likely, it's sd2, because USB devices are enumerated AFTER IDE/SATA/SCSI/SAS/RAID connected drives. (but there are things that can happen that keep me saying, "most likely" and "here's how you find out" rather than just assuming sd2. :) ) Nick.
Re: cpu cores
On 2024-06-08, Otto Moerbeek wrote: > On Sat, Jun 08, 2024 at 03:58:30PM +0200, Andreas Kähäri wrote: > >> Not knowing too much about these things, I think it looks a bit strange >> that *two* out of eight CPUs are disabled due to hypethreading. I would >> have expected every second one be disabled, i.e., four out of eight. > > This simple rule does not apply to more modern CPUs, which can have > different types of cores, some with hyperthreading and some without. Exactly. dmesg | grep smt will make it obvious. The cache information for each attached cpu will probably also show differences between the P and E cores. -- Please keep replies on the mailing list.
Re: Share one of machines IP via WireGuard
On Fri, 07 Jun 2024 16:25:48 +0100, Stuart Henderson wrote: > > I think you'll need proxy ARP then. > After a few attempts to make it works, I think I need help. My setup. Server: where em0 is uplink with routed 1.2.3.4/24 and 1.2.4.5/24 with expected gateway 1.2.3.1 and 1.2.4.1, em0 is included into bridge0 and 1.2.3.4/24 is configured as input point at route domain 0. To make things simpler each IP is associeted with it's own MAC address and switch expects that 1.2.4.5 with 00:50:56:01:1d:40. So, I have: $ cat /etc/hostname.vether1 lladdr 00:50:56:01:1d:40 rdomain 2 up !arp -s 1.2.4.5 00:50:56:01:1d:40 pub $ cat /etc/hostname.wg0 rdomain 2 wgkey ... wgpeer ... \ wgaip 1.2.4.5/32 \ wgpka 25 wgport 51820 wgrtable 0 up $ when I run ping from client to 1.2.4.1 I see traffic on wg0 on the server, but I can't figure out how to redirect it to vether1 and send to the switch. I feel that I miss some pice. I see route-to in pf.conf which probably the missed pice but I can't figure out how to use it. -- wbr, Kirill
Re: cpu cores
On Sat, Jun 08, 2024 at 03:58:30PM +0200, Andreas Kähäri wrote: > On Sat, Jun 08, 2024 at 11:39:28AM +0100, Kirill A. Korinsky wrote: > > On Sat, 08 Jun 2024 11:09:29 +0100, > > Omar Polo wrote: > > > > > > On 2024/06/08 10:09:07 +0100, Kirill A. Korinsky wrote: > > > > On Sat, 08 Jun 2024 04:57:49 +0100, > > > > Gustavo Rios wrote: > > > > > > > > > > i have installed obsd on my dell notebook 8 cores processor. When i > > > > > execute > > > > > the top utility, it is showed the cores, from 0 (cpu0) to 7 (cpu7), > > > > > but > > > > > cpu1 and cpu3 is not listed. What is the problem ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > A blind guess: sysctl hw.smt=1 may return your hypertreading cores. > > > > > > which is a very bad advice to give. There's a reason sysctl hw.smt=1 > > > defaults to that value. One should rather give a "blind guess" of "your > > > hyperthread cores are disabled by default" rather than give a bad advice > > > without explanation. > > > > I'll make my advice cleaner, I defently mean that missed cores probably is > > disabled becuae it is hyperthreading ones which can be seen as offline in > > htop, or enable via sysctl. > > > Not knowing too much about these things, I think it looks a bit strange > that *two* out of eight CPUs are disabled due to hypethreading. I would > have expected every second one be disabled, i.e., four out of eight. This simple rule does not apply to more modern CPUs, which can have different types of cores, some with hyperthreading and some without. -Otto > > > > > > > Also, I'd like to add that from security point of view SMT in general and > > hyperthreading as an example is very bad idea. > > > > Thus, here old but interesting results that enabling hyperthreading has > > negative effect on performance of have CPU used applications: > > https://web.archive.org/web/20220325090914/http://users.telenet.be/nicvroom/performanceP4.htm > > > > -- > > wbr, Kirill > > -- > Andreas (Kusalananda) Kähäri > SciLifeLab, NBIS, ICM > Uppsala University, Sweden > > . >
Re: cpu cores
On Sat, Jun 08, 2024 at 11:39:28AM +0100, Kirill A. Korinsky wrote: > On Sat, 08 Jun 2024 11:09:29 +0100, > Omar Polo wrote: > > > > On 2024/06/08 10:09:07 +0100, Kirill A. Korinsky wrote: > > > On Sat, 08 Jun 2024 04:57:49 +0100, > > > Gustavo Rios wrote: > > > > > > > > i have installed obsd on my dell notebook 8 cores processor. When i > > > > execute > > > > the top utility, it is showed the cores, from 0 (cpu0) to 7 (cpu7), but > > > > cpu1 and cpu3 is not listed. What is the problem ? > > > > > > > > > > A blind guess: sysctl hw.smt=1 may return your hypertreading cores. > > > > which is a very bad advice to give. There's a reason sysctl hw.smt=1 > > defaults to that value. One should rather give a "blind guess" of "your > > hyperthread cores are disabled by default" rather than give a bad advice > > without explanation. > > I'll make my advice cleaner, I defently mean that missed cores probably is > disabled becuae it is hyperthreading ones which can be seen as offline in > htop, or enable via sysctl. Not knowing too much about these things, I think it looks a bit strange that *two* out of eight CPUs are disabled due to hypethreading. I would have expected every second one be disabled, i.e., four out of eight. > > Also, I'd like to add that from security point of view SMT in general and > hyperthreading as an example is very bad idea. > > Thus, here old but interesting results that enabling hyperthreading has > negative effect on performance of have CPU used applications: > https://web.archive.org/web/20220325090914/http://users.telenet.be/nicvroom/performanceP4.htm > > -- > wbr, Kirill -- Andreas (Kusalananda) Kähäri SciLifeLab, NBIS, ICM Uppsala University, Sweden .
Re: [Solved] Edit: Installation amd64 7.5: How to access the distribution sets on the USB stick?
On Sat, Jun 08, 2024 at 03:33:15PM +0200, rfab...@mhsmail.ch wrote: > Dear Jan > > Thanks for your mail. > > Am 2024-06-08 08:28, schrieb Jan Stary: > > > When asked where the file sets are, > > you tell the installer where on the USB stick they are. > > The issue was the USB stick did not appear in the disk selection dialog. Why do you think that? It is likely to be one of the sd disks. -Otto > > > > Installing the sets via http works without any issues, but that's not > > > my plan for the remaining and future installations. > > > Why? > > - I'd like to spare the OpenBSD servers redundant download requests. > > - The "INSTALLATION NOTES for OpenBSD/amd64 7.5" say: "It may save much > time and frustration to download the distribution sets to a local server > or disk and perform the installation from there, rather than directly > from the internet." > > Best regards > > Rolf >
[Solved] Edit: Installation amd64 7.5: How to access the distribution sets on the USB stick?
Dear Jan Thanks for your mail. Am 2024-06-08 08:28, schrieb Jan Stary: When asked where the file sets are, you tell the installer where on the USB stick they are. The issue was the USB stick did not appear in the disk selection dialog. Installing the sets via http works without any issues, but that's not my plan for the remaining and future installations. Why? - I'd like to spare the OpenBSD servers redundant download requests. - The "INSTALLATION NOTES for OpenBSD/amd64 7.5" say: "It may save much time and frustration to download the distribution sets to a local server or disk and perform the installation from there, rather than directly from the internet." Best regards Rolf
Re: cpu cores
On Sat, 08 Jun 2024 11:09:29 +0100, Omar Polo wrote: > > On 2024/06/08 10:09:07 +0100, Kirill A. Korinsky wrote: > > On Sat, 08 Jun 2024 04:57:49 +0100, > > Gustavo Rios wrote: > > > > > > i have installed obsd on my dell notebook 8 cores processor. When i > > > execute > > > the top utility, it is showed the cores, from 0 (cpu0) to 7 (cpu7), but > > > cpu1 and cpu3 is not listed. What is the problem ? > > > > > > > A blind guess: sysctl hw.smt=1 may return your hypertreading cores. > > which is a very bad advice to give. There's a reason sysctl hw.smt=1 > defaults to that value. One should rather give a "blind guess" of "your > hyperthread cores are disabled by default" rather than give a bad advice > without explanation. I'll make my advice cleaner, I defently mean that missed cores probably is disabled becuae it is hyperthreading ones which can be seen as offline in htop, or enable via sysctl. Also, I'd like to add that from security point of view SMT in general and hyperthreading as an example is very bad idea. Thus, here old but interesting results that enabling hyperthreading has negative effect on performance of have CPU used applications: https://web.archive.org/web/20220325090914/http://users.telenet.be/nicvroom/performanceP4.htm -- wbr, Kirill
Re: cpu cores
On 2024/06/08 10:09:07 +0100, Kirill A. Korinsky wrote: > On Sat, 08 Jun 2024 04:57:49 +0100, > Gustavo Rios wrote: > > > > i have installed obsd on my dell notebook 8 cores processor. When i execute > > the top utility, it is showed the cores, from 0 (cpu0) to 7 (cpu7), but > > cpu1 and cpu3 is not listed. What is the problem ? > > > > A blind guess: sysctl hw.smt=1 may return your hypertreading cores. which is a very bad advice to give. There's a reason sysctl hw.smt=1 defaults to that value. One should rather give a "blind guess" of "your hyperthread cores are disabled by default" rather than give a bad advice without explanation.
Re: cpu cores
On Sat, 08 Jun 2024 04:57:49 +0100, Gustavo Rios wrote: > > i have installed obsd on my dell notebook 8 cores processor. When i execute > the top utility, it is showed the cores, from 0 (cpu0) to 7 (cpu7), but > cpu1 and cpu3 is not listed. What is the problem ? > A blind guess: sysctl hw.smt=1 may return your hypertreading cores. -- wbr, Kirill
Re: Edit: Installation amd64 7.5: How to access the distribution sets on the USB stick?
On Fri, Jun 07, 2024 at 07:05:49PM -0400, Nick Holland wrote: > On 6/7/24 18:26, rfab...@mhsmail.ch wrote: > > Edit: I have just found in Michael W. Lucas' "OpenBSD Mastery: > > Filesystems" that "the rd recovery disk image is the OpenBSD install > > environment", not the USB stick. But my question (see below) remains the > > same. > > > > Am 2024-06-07 23:21, schrieb rfab...@mhsmail.ch: > > Dear community > > > > I have copied the 'install75.img' to a USB stick, booted from it and > > chosen the "(I)nstall" option. My intention is to install the > > distribution sets from the stick, and not via http, because I'd like to > > install OpenBSD on our 4 home office PCs without downloading the sets 4 > > well...OpenBSD is small, and bandwidth is cheap/free. But yeah, I was > "recycling" back when it was called being "a cheap bastard", I get it. > > > Escaping to a shell and entering 'sysctl hw.disknames' shows: 'sd0, sd1, > > sd2, rd0'. 'sdX' are the 3 internal SSDs. Am I right in assuming that > > 'rd0' is the USB stick? > > as you have discovered...no. > > > Installation step "Let's install the sets!": > > I have chosen the option to install from a local disk partition, and > > answered with "partition not mounted". > > correct. > > > Issue: > > The installer shows 'sd0 sd1 sd2' as available disks, but not the USB > > stick 'rd0'. > > also correct. Besides, rd0 is mounted. But it is also wrong. > > > Question: > > What do I have to do to make the USB installation stick available for > > accessing the distribution sets? Concerning 'install75.img', the > > "Installation notes" say: "An install or upgrade can be done with a > > USB key without network connectivity." > > But how? > > dmesg|grep sd > will show you what all the devices are, pick your USB drive. It will guess > correctly after that. Or press ? at the right prompt and the installer will show you the disk details so you can pick the right one. -Otto > > Installing the sets via http works without any issues, but that's not > > my plan for the remaining and future installations. > > But here's an easier way, if you understand a bit of what is going on. > The system booted from bsd.rd, and it has utilities in "rd0". At this > point, it is NOT ACTUALLY USING the USB drive. So...you can now unplug > and plug it back in...and you will get some white on blue text telling > you what device was unplugged and what was plugged in. > > Of course, you don't really want to do that if you don't know for > sure that the drive is unused, but if things are as you describe it, > it's safe. > > But most likely, it's sd2, because USB devices are enumerated AFTER > IDE/SATA/SCSI/SAS/RAID connected drives. (but there are things that > can happen that keep me saying, "most likely" and "here's how you > find out" rather than just assuming sd2. :) ) > > Nick. >
Re: cpu cores
On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 10:58 PM Gustavo Rios wrote: > i have installed obsd on my dell notebook 8 cores processor. When i execute > the top utility, it is showed the cores, from 0 (cpu0) to 7 (cpu7), but cpu1 > and cpu3 is not listed. What is the problem ? You've been on these lists for over 15 years and yet didn't include a complete dmesg. Ok. If your dmesg completely lacks lines for cpu1 and cpu3 (but not 2 or 4 or 5) then it's a limitation of that exact model and how the BIOS has it configured. But that's really bizarre. Too bad we have zero information about your laptop and the cpus inside it. Philip Guenther
Re: Edit: Installation amd64 7.5: How to access the distribution sets on the USB stick?
> Question: > What do I have to do to make the USB installation stick available for > accessing the distribution sets? install75.img already contains the file sets. > Concerning 'install75.img', the > "Installation notes" say: "An install or upgrade can be done with a > USB key without network connectivity." > But how? When asked where the file sets are, you tell the installer where on the USB stick they are. > Installing the sets via http works without any issues, but that's not > my plan for the remaining and future installations. Why?
