Re: [MMouse]: more on libertarians

1999-06-08 Thread Fishisfast

The following is just way too long. Oh, well.

 First, I apologize for the uneducated comment and for personal attacks.
  Now, to respond.  First, the primacy of the individual, carried to its
  utmost conclusion, is Anarchy The governments
  role is to provide protection (police force and Army) so that the
  have-nots cannot, as an exercise of their "individual" free will, come
  and take away the haves' stuff.  Already a convenient limitation on
  total "liberty."  

Your statements are true, but indicate a misconception. To clarify the 
individual rights issue: Every individual should have the right to live every 
aspect of their life as they choose, unless their doing so infringes on the 
rights of another person. In other words, no matter what I do, there should 
not be any institution that can stop me, so long as I am not harming any 
other person or his property. If I carry a gun, for instance, I am infringing 
on the rights of no one, but if I shoot someone, I must be held accountable. 
That's individual rights. (By the way, I don't mean to start some kind of gun 
control debate, it's just a good example.)

  And there's more.  Most libertarians I have spoken
  with ignore the benefits that they, as "individuals," receive from
  living in a "society."  Government is integral in both ensuring, and
  yes, limiting the benefits individuals receive from living in a
  society.  Libertarians seem to want to retain the material wealth that
  government enabled them to obtain, while eliminating any government
  limits on there benefits.

The only legitimate function of government is to protect the rights of the 
individual. Government does not enable individuals to obtain the benefits of 
society except by limiting its control over the private sector. Therefore, it 
is a lack of government that enables individuals, not the government itself. 
The libertarian argument is that government should not be allowed the 
authority to control individuals or the free market in the first place.
 
  As for your economic argument, it contains more propaganda than
  fact, the perfect free market is a myth, and the history of
  privatization belies your claims of invariable improvement (especially
  for the poor).

It's basic, fundamental economic law. There is no history of privatization in 
America, only a history of socialism and the government theft of private 
property. Education, like every other major industry, should be subjected to 
the free market, where if a business does not improve it fails. Not only 
would quality go up, the poor would actually be able to afford a good 
education, because they actually get to keep their money! Under the current 
system, the poor are forced to send their children to astoundingly bad 
inner-city public schools because their income is being stolen to support 
them, and they can afford to pay for the public schools as well as a private 
school. Only under the current system do the rich have an advantage.

Besides this argument against public education, there is the fact that public 
education is a violation of two of our most important rights-- freedom of 
religion and freedom of speech. You see, it is absolutely impossible to 
educate at any level without presenting a social, political, and religious 
viewpoint. Neutrality is absolutely impossible. Bias is inherant. Our current 
public schools present Marxist social, political, and religious viewpoints. 
They teach that humanity should be divided into groups of people with one 
group deserving protection at the expense of the rights of others, which is a 
cornerstone of Marx's political and social beliefs, and they teach an atheist 
or secular humanist religious viewpoint, another of Marx's beliefs. The 
absence of religion, whether that religion be Christianity or Judaism or 
Islam, is a religious viewpoint... a secular one. Then, every American, 
whether they agree with the viewpoint or not, is forced to fund it. They do 
not have the option to say "I disagree what is being taught at public 
schools, so I choose not to fund it." This is a violation of free speech and 
religious right. In a private system, you would have the option of funding 
opinions you agree with and not funding those you disagree with. A Muslim 
man, for instance, would not be forced to fun the propagation of Christian 
doctrines.

  As for your concluding arguments, I agree equality cannot be
  achieved, but that does not mean it is not to be sought.  

It must be sought. The only way to seek it is by making sure that every 
single individual is equal protected, and no individual recieves more 
protection by government that another, which is a defining feature of 
socialism.

 Your belief
  that the poor have more rights is baseless, although I can see where you
  might get that belief, what with the efforts of the GOP to make the
  American public believe that it's true.  This country was founded on an
  ideal of equality of opportunity, 

Re: [MMouse]: more on libertarians

1999-06-08 Thread Alessio Lunghi

Okay, firstly your argument is based on bullshit

Their children may soon learn that a life a crime pays, which is not a hard
lesson to learn when attending schools that are based on theft, the
redistribution of wealth

Okay basic economics

   Entrepreneurs/businessmen can ONLY make a profit if they give
   Mr/Ms. working class a SMALL percentage of the wealth they
   themselves(working class) have created in the form of wages.
   Therefore whenever you work your boss STEALS from you. FACT!

Crime does pay the whole capitalist economic system is based on stealing.

The only legitimate function of government is to protect the rights of the
individual

Okay you try organising a strike in some fucking sweat shop and you'll
see who the police are gonna protect!



It's basic, fundamental economic law. There is no history of privatization
in
America, only a history of socialism and the government theft of private
property.

The government theft of private property...from whom? From the minority
white
 land owners who have the blood of 10 million native americans on there
hands!

Socialism is whereby the working class have control of the economy thru
workers
co-operatives and "elect" there delegates which are recallable. That is
socialism.


Not only would quality go up, the poor would actually be able to afford a
good
education, because they actually get to keep their money!

Do you think that the ruling class(the rich fuckers) want the average
working class
to get good education??!! Who will work in the factories, mines,railways,
constructionthe
only way to get a higher paid job is to work in NON-PRODUCTIVE work (office
work).

Between 40 and 44 million adults in America are functionally illiterate
thats around 20%
illeteracy in cuba is 6%!! (even though cuba is not a socialist country but
a government
based on a despotic mode of production)

Our current public schools present Marxist social, political, and religious
viewpoints.

You seriously telling me that teachers are reading extracts of CAPITAL or
the
COMMUNIST PARTY MANIFESTO in schools!

I do not believe that the poor have more rights. I believe that every
person,
whether poor or rich, should have the exact same rights. Welfare systems,
for
instance rob from the rich and give to the poor. No matter how much sugar
you
coat that with, it's still robbery. It infringes on the rights of the rich
to
do with their property what they see fit. ALL socialist programs do this.


Oh right welfare systems rob from the rich to give to the poor. How the fuck
did
the rich get rich if they didn't robbed from the only class that create
wealth
THE WORKING CLASS!

Remember a Politician is only a failed businessman

Peace