Re: [Templates] Re: ANNOUNCE: OpenInteract Web Application Server
On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, L.M.Orchard wrote: Now, if only I could get back to un-mothballing Iaijutsu/Iaido and do Zope the right way under perl... :) When I first looked at OI, I was thinking that it has a lot of the plumbing (O/R mapping, security model, application model) covered and you could probably write something like Iaido as an object publisher for it. I know Iaido has quite a few whizbang features that aren't currently in OI, but I think they could be fit into it, to the benefit of all. - Perrin
Re: [Templates] Re: ANNOUNCE: OpenInteract Web Application Server
From: "Matt Sergeant" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 03:01 PM On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Perrin Harkins wrote: In short, Zope wants to be more, but currently is difficult to figure out. That could be just my Perl experience, but I understood more of OpenInteract in half an hour than I did with Zope after several tries over the last few years. Of course that may have a lot to do with your background. Zope isn't a tech tool like what we have coming out for mod_perl at the moment - its a much higher level. This is both good and bad, of course. Personally I think CMS' are very important, but then I would: http://axkit.com/products/axkit-cms/ :-) Zope has a very cool concept behind it, an object oriented web, where every resource behind every URL is an instantiation of a class. Every URL resource is both content and active component. The idea is that there is intelligence behind each piece of content, particular to that piece of content. A PDF object is not just a PDF file, it's also an interface to index the PDF, provide a summary of itself to an RSS file producer for example. Folders in the path to a piece of content can affect that content, so a particular piece of content can take on a different character depending upon where it is placed. It's more than just a CMS system, it's object orientation as applied to web resources. Whereas in OpenInteract, every piece of content is managed by a central component and one of its methods. Like /BasicPage/edit?id=2345. This is more like a procedural model than Zope's OO model. I'm still digging into OpenInteract, having just installed it a few nights ago. Still don't have much else to say about OI, though it looks pretty neato keen. Anyway, as for the complexity of Zope: If I understand the architecture correctly, is that Zope is the combination of what used to be three separate systems. I know one was persistence, the other was an ORB exposing object methods to web calls, not sure of the third. Maybe the templating system? But to me, it seems that they've been joined together in a Frankenstein kinda way. I mean you see things like "bobobase_modification_time" as the standard object property, and a jumble of other non-intuitively named properties, API calls. Not to mention that the DTML language doesn't resemble any other templating language I've seen, nor does it seem to have an easily graspable rhyme or reason for things. And, one of my pet peeves, they're trying to make it "XML compliant". Which to me means that it's looking more and more like the HTML I'm templating, and that's bad. I would like my template language to look distinct enough from what I'm templating, like Template Toolkit's [% %] default construct. So add on top of that a sparse patch of docs, and it's hard to wrap one's brain around. Now, if only I could get back to un-mothballing Iaijutsu/Iaido and do Zope the right way under perl... :) -- Leslie Michael Orchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ Home: 492905 / ICQ Work: 11082089
Re: [Templates] Re: ANNOUNCE: OpenInteract Web Application Server
From: "Chris Winters" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 08:14 PM From Perrin: And just out of curiosity, are you familiar with any of the similar projects that others have worked on, like Iaido (formerly Iaijutsu) or Jellybean? I've looked into both of them at one time or another -- OpenInteract has been under construction for about a year and SPOPS (and ancestors) more another half-year before that. I'm jealous of Jellybean's self-sufficiency, of the cool apps built on Iaido so far and of the clean model of both of them. I hope to swipe (with generous attribution) as much as possible. Hey, it's me poking my head briefly out of hiding here... I'm the lout responsible for Iaido and it's subsequent (temporary?) mothballing. Glad you think I have some cool apps with it, few that they are. My problem is that all my round tuits and copious amounts of free time dried up with a new job and a promotion. That's about when I disappeared from around this mailing list and stopped updating my projects on SourceForge. (Got a new one on the way, though, new employers permitting) So, I'm trying to install OpenInteract now since from 50,000 ft it sounds a lot like what I was trying to do with Iaido. Using Template Toolkit for the presentation... abstracted data management... Need to look around more. I'd be more than glad to help you and maybe even have Iaido get eaten up by your project since I seem to have lost the momentum to sustain it by myself. There are a lot of neat things going in in Iaido, and still on my TODO list for it to get completely tossed, though. (Like, I really want to get that FTPd interface to the data store up and running again :) ) Anyway, having major problems getting past the oi_manage install_sql step so far, maybe I'll post to the -dev list or the bugs on sourceforge. -- Leslie Michael Orchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ Home: 492905 / ICQ Work: 11082089
Re: [Templates] Re: ANNOUNCE: OpenInteract Web Application Server
* L.M.Orchard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [010207 00:07]: So, I'm trying to install OpenInteract now since from 50,000 ft it sounds a lot like what I was trying to do with Iaido. Using Template Toolkit for the presentation... abstracted data management... Need to look around more. I'd be more than glad to help you and maybe even have Iaido get eaten up by your project since I seem to have lost the momentum to sustain it by myself. There are a lot of neat things going in in Iaido, and still on my TODO list for it to get completely tossed, though. (Like, I really want to get that FTPd interface to the data store up and running again :) ) Anyway, having major problems getting past the oi_manage install_sql step so far, maybe I'll post to the -dev list or the bugs on sourceforge. It's probably early to talk about one project swallowing another :-) I'm certainly not shy about looking for great ideas wherever they are. And now that OpenInteract is out I hope to take a step back and look at other environments for inspiration. (Building some services on top of POE would be extremely cool, for starters.) One of the things OpenInteract has going for it is that a company (intes.net) uses it constantly and pays people to develop applications for it. I'm finding how difficult it is to do more programming after hours, even fun stuff like this. This is getting rapidly OT. Moving this onto the -dev list is a good idea. Thanks, Chris -- Chris Winters ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Building enterprise-capable snack solutions since 1988.
