Re: [Mono-list] Uncertainty and Doubt about MONO
Yes, thanks.This announcement generated a lot of negative feelings towards Novell.It has everything to do with Microsoft still being the main threat to our ecosystem.Anyway, time will tell if this partnership was good or bad for the open-source landscape. I am sorry I posted this topic here ... many developers don't want to hear such rants,so can you guys initiate a new mailing list where such issues can be discussed ? On 11/5/06, Miguel de Icaza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello,You have some valid questions, and I have followed up to some of theconcerns similar to this one on my blog:http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2006/Nov-04.html In addition, Jonathan Pryor has a good entry that explores the issue inmore detail than I have done, and also is a good primer for anyone thatmight be confused: http://www.jprl.com/Blog/archive/development/mono/2006/Nov-04.htmlThat being said, a few corrections: Didn't Miguel de Icaza assured us that Mono was safe, that there are no known patents that Mono infringes, that .NET is an ECMA standard, that even if Mono infringes on some patents then the Open Inventions Network will protect it ?I said the first part;I also said that Mono was one of the technologies protected by the OIN. Didn't Miguel said that Novell conducted a whole investigation on Microsoft owned patents and no infringed patents where found ?I did not say that, and I have no idea where this comes from. It is not practical to review every patent out there (owned by everyoneout there) and match every claim against every piece of code written inthe source code.Many patents will likely be invalid, many will have prior art, many will be unenforceable, many claims are too broad to be valid in court;Sothe only way of testing a patent is to go to court.Thislikely means that a patent holder will need to determine whichparts might infringe, and might have to evaluate what is the cost of going to court, what are the possible benefits to himself (if you suesomeone that never made any money, what exactly will you win?), and alsowhat are the risks of a counter-lawsuit?The patent holder must ask himself whether the trouble of going to court is worth the price of apotential counter suit.Another alternative is to come up with some kind of agreement, webelieve we own this much IP, we believe you own that much IP combined with we believe we are making this much money, you are making that muchmoney.There might be others, and the deals will greatly vary depending on thecases and usually they cover more than patents (like Novell/MS covers technical collaborations).Miguel ___ Mono-list maillist - Mono-list@lists.ximian.com http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
[Mono-list] compilation problem
I downloaded from SVN the latest sources of mono and mcs. I tried compiling and it gives me an error copy-pasted below. I am using : Ubuntu Dapper 6.06 GCC 4.0.3 automake 1.9 The installed mono compiler used to compile mono is: 1.1.13.6 Also, if someone could give me some tips on building debian packages for Ubuntu from these sources, I would really appreciate it. Thanks for any help you may give. So, here's the output: make[7]: Leaving directory `/home/alex/Projects/mono-packages/mcs/class/System' make[7]: Entering directory `/home/alex/Projects/mono-packages/mcs/class/System.XML' make all-local make[8]: Entering directory `/home/alex/Projects/mono-packages/mcs/class/System.XML' MONO_PATH=../../class/lib/basic: $MONO_PATH /home/alex/Projects/C ../../class/lib/basic/mcs.exe /codepage:65001 -d:NET_1_1 -d:ONLY_1_1 -d:BOOTSTRAP_WITH_OLDLIB -debug /noconfig -r:mscorlib.dll -r:System.dll -nowarn:0162,0618,0612,0642,1595 -target:library -out:System.Xml.dll System.Xml.XPath/Parser.cs Mono.Xml.Xsl/PatternParser.cs Mono.Xml.Xsl/PatternTokenizer.cs @System.Xml.dll.sources /bin/sh: /home/alex/Projects/C: is a directory make[8]: *** [../../class/lib/basic/System.Xml.dll] Error 126 make[8]: Leaving directory `/home/alex/Projects/mono-packages/mcs/class/System.XML' make[7]: *** [do-all] Error 2 make[7]: Leaving directory `/home/alex/Projects/mono-packages/mcs/class/System.XML' make[6]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 make[6]: Leaving directory `/home/alex/Projects/mono-packages/mcs/class' make[5]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 make[5]: Leaving directory `/home/alex/Projects/mono-packages/mcs' make[4]: *** [profile-do--basic--all] Error 2 make[4]: Leaving directory `/home/alex/Projects/mono-packages/mcs' make[3]: *** [profiles-do--all] Error 2 make[3]: Leaving directory `/home/alex/Projects/mono-packages/mcs' make[2]: *** [all-local] Error 2 make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/alex/Projects/mono-packages/mono/runtime' make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/alex/Projects/mono-packages/mono' make: *** [all] Error 2 ___ Mono-list maillist - Mono-list@lists.ximian.com http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
Re: [Mono-list] Phalanger on Mono
I am not on the Mono-dev team, so my opinion doesn't really matter that much, but ... PHP is first and furthermost *a platform*, not a language. People use PHP because of mod_php and Apache, not because of the way you construct strings ... which I think it is a stupid assumption. People use PHP because it is very *cheap* to have an Apache server with mod_php installed. Period. People *do not* use PHP because it is a beautiful language ... in fact it has lots and lots of problems, which you obviously seem to not know about and/or ignore. Both Python and PHP are languages defined by their implementations, since they are not standardized. They play the role of wrappers for C libraries ... they where designed for this. That's the main reason Jython, IronPython, Phalanger, or whatever ... will never be used outside a very small niche. And btw ... Python is a lot more mature and complete. Python is fully object-oriented. Python is general-purpose. Python is used for many mission-critical applications ... so lets not compare apples to oranges here, and bash a language because the string construction doesn't feel right ... which I think it is very shortsighted ;) About MONO's support ... I am sorry to hear that Phalanger doesn't work on Mono. I really do. But considering that many other languages run on top of Mono, I think you should be talking firstly with the Phalanger's dev team, because I am under the impression they didn't really try. And btw ... the P in LAMP is primarily for Perl ;) PS: don't get offended by my tone. I just woke up, and I'm incapable of civilized conversations in the morning :) On Thu, 2006-08-03 at 11:45 +0530, Ligesh wrote: On Wed, Aug 02, 2006 at 11:28:33PM +0900, Atsushi Eno wrote: Pedro Sobota wrote: No matter how Phalanger is important for you, it is just one of applications from the point of a managed runtime's view. (...) If you want Phalanger on Mono and there are missing bits, we'd welcome your patches to fix the issues (it happens with related to many applications such as Nemerle and Boo). Is it just me or this sounds like it's not important for Mono, if it is for you, you're on your own. Of course Phalanger is not important enough for Mono to support OFFICIALLY. There is nothing you can feel odd. No no.. That's not a correct attitude, especially since Phalanger is not just 'another application'. Having Phalanger would be very advantageous for Mono, since it is actually the most mature non-microsoft compiler I know of. PHP is the simplest and most popular language out there for web, and I am still not able to understand how you can dismiss it offhand. Or you mean you have no interest in reaching the millions of php developers out there? You are primarily a platform vendor, and your focus is developers. With phalanger you get a ready made team of millions of skilled and semi-skilled php coders, and even the people who are new to web, and whose first language of choice is PHP. I mean, I am totally at a loss as to how to make sense of your attitude. From my discussion with Phalanger people, I did realize that their primary focus was the Windows platform, but they were ready to co-operate in any effort to make it work on Mono--at least they were not dismissive of Mono like you are of Phalanger. -- :: Ligesh :: http://ligesh.com ___ Mono-list maillist - Mono-list@lists.ximian.com http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list ___ Mono-list maillist - Mono-list@lists.ximian.com http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
Re: [Mono-list] ASP.NET and Licensing
ASP.NET is quite a controversial piece of the .NET framework. ADO.NET is another controversial library, that has no replacement. As Thomas Jefferson said ... the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Why can't we just stick with the ECMA standards and create true open-source alternatives for the rest of the .NET framework ? Is it really that hard ? I mean, besides licensing reasons, really ... ASP.NET is very tool-oriented to be bearable without VS.NET, and ADO.NET simply sucks, as I've never seen a more poorly designed database access library. I thought about starting my own database access library, similar to Python's or Perl's DBI. Shouldn't be too hard to create such interfaces and then to create a mysql adapter by wrapping the mysql C library, the only problem being the limited free time I have. Kornél Pál wrote: Hi, If you don't want to use ASP.NET and/or System.Windows.Form it's up to you but note that the fact that there is a closed source implementation of them (i.e. Microsoft .NET Framewrok) doesn't mean that you should avoid their open source implementations (i.e. Mono or Portable.NET, IMHO Mono is much better:). ___ Mono-list maillist - Mono-list@lists.ximian.com http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
Re: [Mono-list] Socket problem
I am sorry I don't have more time to help you, but if you don't find the problem, a good old-fashioned way to solve it is ... by invoking the ping command in a separate process and grabbing the output. ping -c 3 www.google.com (it pings the host 3 times before it stops, otherwise it goes forever and you'd have to manually kill the process) The you just read the output, execute some regular expressions on it, and get the info you want. On Wednesday 12 July 2006 21:30, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, but I think it's stupid. UNIX/Linux users never working as root. Is there an other way to send a ping? Karsten Original-Nachricht Datum: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:24:25 -0600 Von: Peter Dennis Bartok [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: [EMAIL PROTECTED], mono-list@lists.ximian.com Betreff: Re: [Mono-list] Socket problem I may be wrong, but I thought you needed root rights for ICMP. Have you tried running your mono app as root? Peter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mono-list@lists.ximian.com Date: 12 July, 2006 12:14 Subject: [Mono-list] Socket problem Hello together I use Mono to create a small C# console project. In this project I send an ping to check the host. I didn't write the ICMP class self. ICMP class: http://cpp.sourceforge.net/?show=17688 Code to use the class: ICMP ping = new ICMP(); ping.Open(); TimeSpan span = ping.Send(66.249.85.104, new TimeSpan(0,0,5)); Unfortunately there is a exception: Unhandled Exception: System.Net.Sockets.SocketException: Access denied in 0x000b8 System.Net.Sockets.Socket:.ctor (AddressFamily family, SocketType type, ProtocolType proto) in [0x4] (at cPing.cs:41) ICMP:Open () in [0x7] (at Main.cs:14) MainClass:Main (System.String[] args I tested the same code to a Visual Studio 2005 Pro. installation. It runs fine. Do you have any idea? Thanks. Greetz Karsten -- Echte DSL-Flatrate dauerhaft für 0,- Euro*! Feel free mit GMX DSL! http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl ___ Mono-list maillist - Mono-list@lists.ximian.com http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list ___ Mono-list maillist - Mono-list@lists.ximian.com http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
Re: [Mono-list] Getting a service to start automatically
Actually, crontab is available on every Linux distro. And I prefer crontab over the init process because you can monitor your server this way. For example you could do a script that executes everyday and checks the status of the server process. If the server process is not running, the script can start it. And we can get a little wild here and have a rule like ... if the server process takes too many resources, the script should restart it. And you don't have to write special scripts like in the case of the init scripts. For starters just write a sh file where you place the command you give to launch your application, and that's it. Nikki Locke wrote: Lee wrote: I've have tried unsuccessfully to get a service that I wrote to startup automatically via an init.d script. Assuming you can get the service to start OK manually, then I suggest you ask this question in a list or group dedicated to your particular Linux distro, as it is a Linux question, and the best answer depends on your distro. ___ Mono-list maillist - Mono-list@lists.ximian.com http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
[Mono-list] favorite IDE ?
Pool: what's your favorite IDE for Mono development ? I am using SciTE with my own generated API file, coupled with Make for project building. I found it to be simple, effective, and easy to configure, although I am considering switching to vim. I would've used Monodevelop, but I found it too buggy. Somehow, I do not like full-blown IDEs. Even if I had Windows and VStudio installed, I would still prefer a simple and fast editor. Is anybody else feeling like me ? :) ___ Mono-list maillist - Mono-list@lists.ximian.com http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
[Mono-list] Re: Windows processes
Err ... replying to myself. I had a revelation ... what if I look at how Mono has implemented it. So I happily navigate to the System.Diagnostics.Process implementation http://svn.myrealbox.com/viewcvs/trunk/mcs/class/System/System.Diagnostics/Process.cs?rev=60744view=markup and what do I get ? [MethodImplAttribute(MethodImplOptions.InternalCall)] *private* *extern* *static* *int* GetPid_internal(); [MethodImplAttribute(MethodImplOptions.InternalCall)] *private* *extern* *static* *int*[] GetProcesses_internal(); Damn, I thought I had it easy. What the hell does MethodImplOptions.InternalCall mean ? Does it mean that the CLR takes care of it ? So, can you please help me ? I am not a good C++ programmer to search for code snippets that other people wrote. Alex Nedelcu wrote: Hi guys, I want to get the list of processes loaded on Windows, at a given time, along with statistics like cpu usage, memory usage, etc ... Although it is for a C# project, I do not want a C#-specific solution (like System.Diagnostics and stuff). I also know about WMI, but besides the fact that MONO doesn't support WMI yet (AFAIK), for other reasons I do not want to use WMI. So ... any other way ? Any COM objects I could call ? Any Windows functions from kernel32.dll, or user32.dll ? Please help me, because I am unfamiliar with the Win32API ... and believe me that I searched, and with no success. Thank you, ___ Mono-list maillist - Mono-list@lists.ximian.com http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
[Mono-list] preferate build tool ?
Hi guys, please help me out with this choice ... What build tool do you use and/or what is the preferred build tool for Mono projects ? And I know there are a couple of choices available ... GNU Make, Ant, NAnt, Rake or MSBuild. Thank you, ___ Mono-list maillist - Mono-list@lists.ximian.com http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
[Mono-list] On Mono and Patents ... again
Hi, Sorry to bring this up again like so many others. It seems quite outrageous the way Novell and Miguel are promoting Mono. OK, I know. It's a cool technology. But it comes from Microsoft. The reason why Linux has succeeded was because it's free and because it provides great value unmatched by Windows. It's simply superior in many ways. The reason why OS/2 failed is because it provided a Win32 emulator so why programming for OS/2 when you can target both OS/2 and Windows. Problem was that Microsoft constantly changed the api and they couldn't keep up. Let's start with Miguel's favorite saying: The software patent problem is not limited to Mono. Software patents affect everyone writing software today. Yes, that may be true. But you are deliberately violating those software patents. It's all in the open, everybody knows it, and you picked the best company as a target. And yeah, GNOME and Linux in general don't rely neither on WINE nor on Samba, and Sun made sure full open source implementations of J2SE 5 are possible. Google for Apache Harmony and it's reasons ;) The only reply Miguel and Novell have regarding the ECMA/ISO parts is this (from their FAQ): Jim Miller at Microsoft has made a statement on the patents covering ISO/ECMA, (he is one of the inventors listed in the patent) - imagine that, wow, he is one of the inventors And here's what he says: But Microsoft (and our co-sponsors, Intel and Hewlett-Packard) went further and have agreed that our patents essential to implementing C# and CLI will be available on a royalty-free and otherwise RAND basis for this purpose. So, please enlighten me how the will be available part is any consolation ? Do you trust Microsoft ? Do you expect me or anyone else to ? How does a promise make up for a legal document ? Is this letter even original ? Can you proove it ? Also from their FAQ: Basically a grant is given to anyone who want to implement those components for free and for any purpose. What a bunch of bullshit. What proof do you have ? To think of it, I can probably even sue you for such lies. From Jim Miller's letter it should be: Basically a grant **WILL BE** given if Microsoft will someday be in a good mood So, will Microsoft, the not so evil as others company as seen by many mono fuckheads, ever sue Novell or companies that rely on Mono ? My guess is that they will: http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?newsid=2654 http://linux.sys-con.com/read/124218.htm Even if it doesn't happen ... Windows programmers will not move to Linux, it will have the reverse effect actually. I already saw colleagues of mine that tried Mono, liked it and now thinking of moving from Java to .NET and from Linux to Windows. And Novell will be just fine, they will reinvent themselves again. Miguel will be hired by Microsoft (it was his dream after all). It's everybody else that will suffer. Why the hell haven't you picked another platform ? Why not Java ? There is also Parrot. If that's not good enough why not inventing another Java wanna-be with only slight improvements and call it otherwise ? Why not improve on C# without calling it a .NET port ? Why not invent something new ? I will tell you why It is easier for Novell to increase it's market share this way. After all, it's pretty hard this days to have a competition like Red Hat. It's all about the money. So I'll tell you this: I won't use Evolution anymore if you poison it with Mono, I won't use Gnome anymore if you poison it with Mono, and I will definitely bash at Mono every chance I get. And I am sure there are others like me. Before calling me a troll that spreads FUD, first read the wikipedia definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FUD As you saw already, I have good reasons and proofs for my statements (it's fucking obvious). It's your turn. Please provide evidence that the ECMA/ISO parts are royalty free (legal this time) and dump the non-ECMA stacks and then I will bow to you. Also, if such evidence exist please update that stupid FAQ (it is useless in it's current state). So again, FUCK YOU for trying to poison Linux (or Gnome for that matter). Please remember you don't own it. And ... don't worry about other flames from me ... I will unsubscribe. ___ Mono-list maillist - Mono-list@lists.ximian.com http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
[Mono-list] Mono licensing issue
Hi,I am new to Momo. I like it a lot and I'd like to use it.That said I read there are some issues regarding the ECMA standards as being available in a RAND + Royalty Free. To be more specific, I read this guy's oppinion: http://www.gnome.org/~seth/blog/mono I don't know what to think. I am not a lawyer, but that was not the first time I heard about how this issue can screw OSS. I am sure the issue was talked alot since 2004. But I haven't found any documents, or replies from Miguel or Novell, that can infirm this. I once heard in mid 2004 that Novell was doing a legal review, but I haven't found any results or replies from them. I also read the FAQ at www.go-mono.org. But they are only talking about software patents and the 2 ECMA and non-ECMA stacks. I want to know if RAND + Royalty Free can affect me or OSS in general. I don't want to uppset anyone, I just want to know of any news or documents that can give me some peace of mind. Maybe my google searching skills are bad, and that's why I am asking you. BTW: Nice work with Mono. I really enjoy it. Thank you in advance, ___ Mono-list maillist - Mono-list@lists.ximian.com http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
