Re: [Mpls] Lead removal v.s. MAC 150
On 3/26/03 9:42 AM, "Michael Atherton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Please note that the report cited above says, "In communities where the houses > are old and deteriorating..." "Deteriorating" being the key word. If lead > paint is flaking or chalking then I agree that it is a bad thing, but if > it is firm and stable there really is no problem, unless some fool > comes along and starts dry sanding it. OK - here's another interesting tidbit I learned about from the Minneapolis Department of Regulatory services. Less than 30% of property owners in Minneapolis are in compliance with federal regulations that require tenants or buyers to be provided with information about lead. That would suggest to me that the likelihood of some fool coming along and dry sanding a window frame with lead paint is not so remote. > As I understand it, it unlikely that any child in Minneapolis (who > is not eating paint chips) will have been exposed to more lead than > I was growing up in L.A. in the 1950s. Ok, so I could be a lot smarter, > but I'm doing ok (if being qualified to join Mensa means anything). I can't speak to what the conditions were in LA in the 1950s since that was 20 years before I was born. What I do know is that in 2002, there were 63 cases of children with elevated blood lead levels in Minneapolis that were detected through screening. > "Correlation does not imply causation!" Do you have evidence that > when matched for SES that %50 of unincarcerated adults do not show > exposure to lead as children? Wasn't my statistic - I borrowed it from Wizard. But as she pointed out earlier today, we know where most lead exposure comes from. And we know from the Minneapolis Department of Regulatory Services where the majority of children with elevated blood lead levels were exposed to lead. 62% of those cases were determined to be from rental properties. > We also don't know how bad the problem of space alien infiltration is, > but do we really need to worry about it? If you really want to worry about > household hazards, then worry about the lack of air circulation in > new homes and the type of sealants and materials used in them. There > are many materials that have not been tested and are likely to show up > as health hazards twenty years from now. I could write a book about these issues because Michael is right, there will be new problems that come up and Michael also hits the nail right on the head as to why. Materials and sealants and such being used in new homes have not been tested for toxicity characteristics. However, the fact that there are other concerns out there is no excuse to ignore the threat from lead. We know how toxic it is. We know where it is. We know it's messing up little kids' lives. Now we need to decide if we're going to continue to do something about it or if we're going to throw up our hands and let children suffer because it's too much of an inconvenience to deal with. > Do you want to provide some really useful information? Report the > percentage of the 33% of children in tested Minneapolis that actually > have dangerous levels of lead in their blood (33% is a huge sample). > Next report the follow up studies that determined exactly what the > source of this contamination was in their environments. It may turn > out to have nothing to do with lead paint, and instead could be problems > with their drinking water (bad soldering in copper pipes can also cause > lead poisoning and I believe it is still used in new housing). It would be nice to have all of this information. But while we go about collecting it, more children are getting exposed to lead. As Wizard said earlier, we know about exposure from uncovered soil, so we try to mitigate it by providing vegetative cover. We know how to reduce lead hazards in homes. Sometimes that requires total removal of painted surfaces, sometimes other mitigation that is less costly can be done. But to ignore it should not be an option. > I live in a house build in 1883. I can say with a high degree of > certainty that there is lead paint in my house. I can say with > the same degree of certainty that removing all of the lead paint > would cost more than the value of the house. I have no intention > of tearing down what is a wonderful example of Victorian architecture. > I have had my blood tested while I was doing restoration. My wife > was tested during both of her pregnancies. My children are both > tested regularly and none of us has shown any evidence of > elevated levels of lead. As a side note, for those of us really > paranoid parents, as I understand it low levels of lead can be treated > with iron supplements. Paranoid parent might also want to buy HEPA > vacuums. I live in a house built in 1906. I expect there's lead paint in my house as well. But I don't have children and I'm pretty sure I've outgrown any attraction to paint chips. I'm glad to see Michael took the threats of lead exposure s
Re: [Mpls] EDITORIAL: Plantation mentality alive in Minneapolis
Thanks for the link, Shawn, it'd be interesting to know who Ms. Thomas was referring to when she mentioned the city's House Negroes. A question for both Shawn Lewis and Michelle Gross: Given Mayor Rybak's deplorable record so far regarding police-community relations, who would you support for Mayor if early elections were called this year for Mayor as well as City Council Representatives? In this forum last week there was a lot of speculation that Peter McLaughlin was interested in running against the Mayor. Is he a viable candidate for those wishing to address police brutality? "The law should not imitate nature, the law should improve nature. People invented the law to govern their relationships. The law determins who we are and how we live. We either observe it or break it. People are free. Their freedom is limited only by the freedom of others. Punishment means revenge. In particular when it aims to harm, but it does not prevent a crime. For whom does the law avenge? In the name of the innocent? Do the innocent make the rules?"--Krzysztof Kieslowki, TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Small and Underutilized Business Meeting with City
I just got the announcement below regarding an opportunity for businesses owned by people of color and women. The impetus behind this is Community Collaborative, an organization that is doing great work, especially around minority contracting issues and helping these businesses get their fair share of the city's purchasing department pie. Please help spread the word about this event. *** This is a meeting that the Civil Rights Department arranged following the suggestion of the Community Collaborative. The Collaborative voiced its concern to the Civil Rights department for not having a plan to ensure that dollars being spent out of the purchasing department were available to minority and disadvantaged businesses, particularly professional and technical services. Note that representatives for the other public jurisdictions will be there also. Please encourage as many persons as possible to come to the meeting. Information session for Certified Vendors/Small Underutilized Businesses/ Businesses of Color Date: Wednesday March 26, 2003 Time: 9:00 - 11:00 a.m. Place: Minneapolis City Hall, Room 220 Purpose: To review the City of Minneapolis Purchasing Division procedures and meet with City of Minneapolis Buyers. Representatives from the CERT Collaborative available to discuss opportunities in their areas: City of Minneapolis City of St. Paul Hennepin County Ramsey County. St. Paul Public Schools Seating is limited - Please call Roxanne to RSVP at (612)-673-2112 This event is sponsored by the Minneapolis Department of Civil Rights Small & Underutilized Business Program. (612)673-3012 TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Lead removal and Doing in the small city landlord
--- Chris Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Where did that lead come from? Gasoline. Up until the 1980s, virtually all gasoline had lead in it. In older neighborhoods in Minneapolis, leaded gasoline powered cars have been regularly driving along the streets for maybe 80 years or more. SAM: The Detroit Free Press recently did an excellent series called "Lead's Toxic Toll," in which they make the same point Chris makes: www.freep.com/lead/index.htm Yes, lead can be found in old buildings that are used as rental properties. But it can also be found in owner-occupied buildings. Since we are all going to pay for the care that lead-poisoned children need--assuming there will be any care left under the current administration--it makes sense that we all, not just landlords, cover the cost of lead abatement. I also wonder what constitutes a "small landlord." As the former owner of one rental unit, I thought I was a small landlord. Maybe I was a microscopic one instead... Susan Maricle willing to contribute her fair share of gumballs in Bruno MN formerly of Folwell __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] EDITORIAL: Plantation mentality alive in Minneapolis
EDITORIAL Plantation mentality alive in Minneapolis By: Pauline Thomas Minnesota Spokesman-Recorder Originally posted 3/26/2003 It frustrates me when I have to spend my time fighting about federal mediation. Unless we lay all the cards on the table and talk openly about the issues, we will never get to the core of the problem. It has become very clear to me that Mayor Rybak and Chief Olson are only interested in maintaining the status quo and are not really interested in coming to the mediation table in good faith. We need public servants who are responsive to the needs of our community. Now, most of us who understand the history of our country, and know how politics are played, can see what the mayor and the chief are trying to do. It is what we used to call, back in slavery days, using a plantation mentality to divide and conquer. This technique was used to perpetuate racial self-hatred, division, and separating Blacks by bestowing privileges and status on some. Plantation owners would use loyal Blacks to do their dirty work. This method would minimize resentment and retaliation towards themselves. http://www.spokesman-recorder.com Shawn Lewis, Field Neighborhood -- ___ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Lead removal v.s. MAC 150
I can not believe that some law firm such as Zimmerman and Reed, or the Cirisi Firm has not done a class action against the big paint companies. They must have known about the health effects long before they stopped making it. Steve Meldahl Jordan (work) - Original Message - From: "Ron Lischeid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [Mpls] Lead removal v.s. MAC 150 > The solution is simple: > Paint companies used lead in their paint. > Millions of people bought the paint to 'paint the town'. > Let the paint companies/consumers fund the solution. > (Like the airlines and passengers are paying for the Sound Insulation > Program). > > Ask these questions: > How much money will it take to solve the problem? > How long do you have to reasonably solve the problem? > How much paint do we project to sell in Minnesota in during that time? > Once you have these figures, you know what the surcharge will be for every > pint/quart/gallon of paint sold in Minnesota during that time. > When the problem is gone, the surcharge goes away. > > Ron Lischeid > Windom > > > > > > > >From: Barbara Lickness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: Minneapolis Issues Forum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >CC: "Gregory D. Luce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Subject: Re: [Mpls] Lead removal v.s. MAC 150 > >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 21:45:51 -0800 (PST) > > > >Here is the part I don't understand. > > > >Hundreds of homeowners in the flight paths of the > >airport are getting new doors, new windows, new air > >conditioners and other things added to their homes > >free of charge because they have to deal with noise > >issues from airplanes. Many of the recipients of the > >MAC 150 sound insulation program are middle to upper > >income people. > > > >We have hundreds of houses that have significant lead > >issues in them. These houses would benefit majorly > >from new windows, new doors and probably central air > >conditioning as well. More importantly, this > >remediation in these houses would prevent hundreds of > >children from life altering harm as a result of > >exposure to lead. > > > >I am glad for the people who live by the airport and > >their ability to leverage resources to alleviate the > >noise problems in their homes. > > > >I just wonder what the advocacy has been for people > >living in homes where there is lead? What incentives > >are there for landlords to address the problem? I > >know the city had a few programs but nothing that > >lasted over the long haul and certainly none that > >covered a large number of homes. I am not sure what > >the county has done to help this situation and I am > >not sure what Federal dollars were available for this > >issue. I believe the cities 10,000 windows program was > >funded by federal dollars. Phillips dealt with it to a > >minor degree in their NRP plan. Corcoran also > >addressed the issue slightly in their NRP plan. > > > >If anyone out there has more historical information as > >to why removing lead from homes has not been and is > >not as high a priority as insulating people's homes > >for airplane noise, I would like to know. It just > >doesn't seem right. Lead removal deserves to take at > >least the same priority. > > > >Barb Lickness > >Whittier > > > >= > >"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can > >change the world. Indeed, > >it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead > > > >__ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! > >http://platinum.yahoo.com > > > >TEMPORARY REMINDER: > >1. Send all posts in plain-text format. > >2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. > > > > > > > >Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy > >Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls > > > _ > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > TEMPORARY REMINDER: > 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. > 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. > > > > Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy > Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Lead removal v.s. MAC 150
In a message dated 3/26/03 9:43:43 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << bad soldering in copper pipes can also cause lead poisoning and I believe it is still used in new housing). >> Jon sez Only unleaded solder has been used to sweat copper joints since I think the advent of copper supply tubes.in the seventies. The only miniscule danger from lead poisining acquired through household water is, after sitting overnight in the pipes, a small amount of lead could conceivably leach out of your brass fixtures. Running the water for thirty seconds flushes this out. Copper tubing is an excellent product, have no fear. Bad soldering fillls your basement with water, not your body with lead. Wow, I am one smart handymanHey Mikey, send me one of those Mensa applications. Jon Gorder Loring Park "Let me make the superstitions of a nation and I care not who makes the law." Puddin'head Wilson TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Lead removal and Doing in the small city landlord
Chris Johnson wrote: In all this debate about lead abatement, how horrible it is for children, and so forth, I haven't seen any evidence presented that the lead paint in Minneapolis homes, especially rental properties, is actually the major cause of lead found in children. WM: The three main sources of lead in children are lead paint inside the house, lead exhaust from even new cars which, though designed to take less lead to keep from knocking, still have some lead requirements. (Lead free gas ain't completely lead free.) Paint on the exterior of houses that washes down during rain and snow is the third source. The cost of stripping the first six inches of soil off all the yards in most of Mpls. is beyond any affordability and creates the question of where do you put the tainted soil. Hence the ordinance about ground cover. Lead coming off buildings can be dealt with by planting barberry bushes which discourage kids from climbing around in the bushes (by product is that it discourages burglars). Ground cover in yards prevents that source of lead from being a problem. How many of those 33% of the kids in Minneapolis for lead actually had potentially dangerous lead levels? I know one family whose two daughters had such elevated levels. They live in a turn of last century Victorian house. As with the vast majority of homes in Minneapolis (since most homes were built here prior to 1970), they have lead paint. WM: I don't keep those kind of statistics. Once the numbers reached my idea of way too many, I started looking at solutions. As much as I hate to find myself agreeing with Craig Miller, I find myself highly skeptical of the idea of adding a fee to rental property owners under the auspices of fixing the lead problem in Minneapolis. WM: I don't feel guilty at all, though I am very willing to be taxed another $3/yr. if that's what it takes to produce lead safe dwellings. If we're really worried about lead, let's find out how big the problem really is, and where it's really coming from. WM: Actually, those of us who have worked on this issue for years or in years passed do know where the lead comes from. For example: the garbage burner. It not only produces lead particulate matter, but cadmium and other heavy metals. That was my principal reason for opposing Mary Jo's homeless shelter right near the burner. The second was that the stack bloom covered Near Northside. The decision was made long ago to educate parents. Pamphlets have been available at clinics and hospitals for several years now. As a result, I've heard from families that they have taken their kids in for lead testing and were relieved to find their kids' lead counts around 4 to 6 parts per decaliter. Even farm kids will have that lead level. Those whose lead levels were slightly higher were given information about foods to eat to help clean the lead out of the body and precautions they could take to keep the lead from getting into the bodies of children in particular. Those who have dangerously high lead levels get medical treatment. Materials for kids which give them ways to be lead safe have also been printed and distributed. By the way, in my previous post I forgot to credit Rene Parker and Ms. Appleby who got me access to lead poisoned families to do the research. WizardMarks, Central Chris Johnson Fulton TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] FW: Franklin Library, Learning Center Potential Closure
Closing the Franklin Library, an action being considered by the Library Board is a "penny-wise and pound-foolish" decision, which strikes at the heart of true Minneapolis community. The following is the text of a message I sent to Kit Hadley and key Board members, Laura Waterman Wittstock, George Garnett and Rod Krueger. Please let your voice be heard with us in support of a unique City institution. > As you consider the extremely difficult task of budget reduction for the Minneapolis Public Library, please don't close our Phillips community library - the Franklin Library! > > There are far more reasons than I can possibly list here, but in the interests of your busy schedule, I'll limit my and my neighbors' pleas to the following ones. > > * It offers unique resources to our multi-language community from Hmong, Spanish, Somali and Native American resources to materials to help speakers of other languages learn English and prepare themselves for better jobs, productive lives and becoming citizens of their adopted and hoped-for country. Phillips has historically been a neighborhood of first assimilation for future citizens who have given up their past to find a better home and place to invest their lives. > > * It allows access through the Computer Center for people of limited means to use computers, gaining proficiency in programs and skills for higher-wage employment in critically-needed fields. This builds neighborhood stability and will enhance the tax base as people invest in their properties and increase family earnings. It also creates a more economically diverse neighborhood more attractive to businesses and other private investors. > > * The Franklin Learning Center enriches school curricula for students struggling to keep up in the school system, and gives basic reading and math skills for adults who are strongly motivated to improve their lives. Again this is such a necessary and basic need in our neighborhood, and would be a huge loss to the community if unavailable. > > * The Franklin Library is ideally situated for use in a neighborhood with less than 50% car ownership. It's accessible via frequent bus routes as well as pedestrian-friendly. The location in one of Minneapolis' most- densely populated areas ( Phillips neighborhood alone has more than 18,000 people per the 2000 census) gives lots of people easy access to the wonderful resources of MPL. One of the most-checked out resources has been the Chilton's Auto Repair manuals, a critical need in a neighborhood with many who have to do their own mechanicing. > > * Story-telling in the library introduces children to books and resources typically unavailable in other cultures. It also connects to the "traditions of home", building positive connections to a new country, language and activities. It supports the role of parents and allows them to address issues in an enjoyable way. > > * The oldest library in Minneapolis is a preservationist's dream and "feels" like a real library. After more than 90 years of serving the city, it deserves and needs your support to keep on doing what it has done so well in the past. Although not a proponent of "government spending" I voted for the Library Referendum because it captured the vision of making the Franklin Library an accessible, available center of learning and growth in the neighborhood, while keeping the unique architecture and history intact. The hours of volunteer community planning show I'm not alone in this idea. > > PLEASE don't close our library! It would be difficult enough to "do without" for a short time during renovation. With funds only available to STUDY, not renovate, the facility, the closing of our Phillips community gathering-place, library, computer center and neighborhood learning center now should be unthinkable. Please make the right decision for the City, the southside, the Phillips neighborhood and our families by keeping the Franklin Library open for all of us. Without a downtown library (for some amount of time), the Franklin Library is even more important to even more people!> > > Thank you, from your reading, researching, computer-using, book-loving, tax-paying neighbor, > > Sue Anderson Phillips TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Re: Closing Community Libraries
The MPL has a tremendous operating budget shortfall to deal with, and there are questions regarding the prudence of adding new debt (per the library referendum) to the City balance sheet in these troubled times. It has been suggested that several neighborhood libraries be closed during renovation in order to reduce operating expenses. It may even be proposed to close some community libraries permanently (Walker?). My community library (Linden Hills) was closed for well over a year during it's renovation. I think closing community libraries during renovation makes sense as a way to save money over the short term. At the same time, I recognize the importance of these neighborhood libraries to city residents. I have a suggestion that may solve some problems, while saving some money-- that proverbial win-win deal. Why not look at innovative ways to combine neighborhood library functions with the many MPS libraries scattered throughout Minneapolis-- on a temporary and possibly even a permanent basis? Initially, there may be some limited space/rooms available in neighborhood schools-- either in the existing school library or in adjacent rooms-- that could be used to house some MPL materials for broader use by the immediate community. Extended hours could be offered and appropriate measures taken to assure building security during regular and non-regular hours. Current rules/policies would require exception/re-write, but neighborhood residents could be provided adequate levels of library service-- on a short-term basis or permanently, as individual situations warrant. A library like Franklin is a tremendous community resource, and we should be examining all possible scenarios to maintain access to such resources throughout the City. Perhaps MPS library facilities/services could be combined with some MPL resources to meet community needs-- after all, community residents have bought and paid for all these facilities/resources and have expectations on adequate levels of service to be provided for their tax dollars. There should be no reason that many current Community education programs, our K-12 public schools, and our public libraries cannot work together to meet community needs. Let's work toward reducing redundant facility and service requirements to better meet the needs of neighborhood residents, and save a few bucks in the process. Not too many years ago the MPRB wanted to expand gymnasium resources in various parts of the City. In Linden Hills, we worked with MPS to open existing school gyms for neighborhood use, rather than build new facilities in the parks. In retrospect, that was a very prudent move. It took several years to eliminate the red tape precluding such a strategy, but the neighborhoods prevailed-- gyms that were locked up on weekends and week-day evenings were opened to the community. We also prevailed with a community computer lab operating out of SW High School via Community Education-- and the red tape was unbelievable! There are new and better ways to provide services, if we will only look at the options. Michael Hohmann Linden Hills p.s. Please enter this statement into the formal record of tonight's Library Board meeting for further consideration. I'm unable to attend. Thx. > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > Jim Berg > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 9:44 AM > To: Issues Mpls > Subject: [Mpls] Re: Closing Community Libraries > > > Before everyone gets in too much of an uproar > regarding Franklin Library, be aware that the Library > Board vote this evening will be a _temporary_ closing > of the Franklin branch during the renovations of the > building. The same holds for the Sumner Library, which > will also be closed during construction. > > These renovations are funded by the same library > referendum that funds the new Central Library. > > The Library Board is not adopting any recommendations > to close branches for good at today's meeting. > > Jim Berg > Corcoran Neighborhood > snip TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] cost of driving
A decade ago, Californians began calculating the total cost of freeways, and decided it was cheaper to build light rail than an additional freeway lane, and pollution alerts were becoming all to common in California, as they are now in Minneapolis. Unfortunately, Peter McLaughlin (Access Project Freeway Expansion) and his friends at MNDoT feel differently. Hopefully the voters will make this an issue in the next election. Tom Welling Uptown --- On Wed 03/26, Leurquin, Ronald < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: From: Leurquin, Ronald [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:24:29 -0500 Subject: [Mpls] cost of driving Thanks to Carol for all the great links on the costs of our roads.I will be checking them out as the day goes on.I am confident that they will clearly show that the tax payers in MN havebeen greatly subsidizing the road infrastructure we so enjoy, and sometimescurse. Now if I am correct, why is it such a crime for the taxpayers of MNto subsidize other forms of transportation? Owning a car is a privilege,not a right. That comment will have my mother up in arms.Vehicle driving causes pollution, noise, traffic problems, etc., etc., etc.I am not advocating getting rid of vehicles, I just want drivers to paytheir way, or quite complaining about all the 'subsidies' for busses, LRT,etc.I never plan to give up driving over 20,000 miles a year, but I think Ishould pay more proportionately for that privilege. If gas tax made gas 4bucks a gallon, I would cut back because I couldn't afford to drive thatmuch. That wou ld open some road, create a bit less noise, and lesspollution. Those I would consider good things. I doubt Exxon/mobile wouldagree with that though. Nor would MN Dot or AAA.Ronald LeurquinWaite ParkTEMPORARY ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Whats an activist?
I believe this may be part of a thinly veiled attempt by Mr. Metoyer to make sporatic participation appear as "leadership", at someone else's expense. It has been alleged that Mr. Metoyer is contemplating another run for city council. Tom Welling Uptown --- On Wed 03/26, Michelle Gross < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: With all due respect, sir, I have never called you and do not even have your phone number. I believe you may have mixed me up with someone else. However, that's not really the issue. You and another individual on the list have referred to you as a leader in the movement. While I have seen you at some rallies and even recall you speaking once or twice, that makes you a participant in the movement, not a leader. Leaders are involved in actually organizing events, developing the message to the public, strategizing direction for the movement, organizing volunteers, and dealing with the 110 different day to day details that help the movement grow and keep it on track. In our case much of the work involves taking hotline calls in the middle of the night, going to the hospital with folks and taking pictures of their injuries, helping folks get lawyers, doing court support, researching police policies and practices, etc., most of which is not all that glamorous but it sure is important. Showing up at rallies and getting behind the microphone ala Spike Moss, Jerry McAfee, et al doesn't make one a leader, just a talking he ad. Movement leaders stick around after the rallies are over and do the work in between the rallies. By way of example, I have attended a lot of antiwar rallies, especially lately. I've even been asked to speak at a few of the events. But since my time is limited, I have not gone to any meetings or helped plan or direct events. I also don't do anything to keep the movement going between events (except throw a few bucks in the donation bucket). So I would call myself a participant in that movement but certainly would not accept the title of leader. Michelle Gross Communities United Against Police Brutality Bryn Mawr At 09:30 PM 3/25/03 -0500, you wrote: "M.Gross" I had no idea that anyone thought Zack Metoyer was a leader in this issue--I've been working on it for years and never saw him doing anything on it until very recently. ZLM Come on Michele. Are you saying that you do not remember marching with me in the past three years. How about when Abuka was killed by the police and we marched? I spoke then. How about when we marched to the Federal building? I spoke there. How about when you called me and I was one of three supporters that showed up to support you and CUAPB when you did a press release at city hall? How about when we rallied with the Somali community? I spoke then. Maybe you do not realize it, but those around you that ask me to speak at these type of events must think that I have something to say. Or maybe you are so hung up on yourself that you do not see others around you that are fighting the same issues that you are. That is a shame. Maybe it is all about who gets on T.V. or is quoted in the papers. Is that who you think are the real activist? Or is it that those that march beside you are really of no consequence to you in the fight for equal rights. Do you remember calling me and askin g me to come support Federal Mediation at city hall when the council voted for mediation? You should, I sat next to you. There have been so many times that we have fought for the same things. I'm sorry that you do not remember them, I do. Zachary Metoyer Central TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Suburb/auto bashing
Bruce Gaarder wrote: Chris Johnson, in the typical fashion, thinks that the costs of cars are "magnitudes higher". Carol Becker points you to some local research and then says that the gas tax doesn't come close, leaving an impression that Chris is right. I include quotations from that report at the end of this posting. You should also look to the article by Mark Delucchi, an advocate of rail transit, in Access magazine by the University of California Transportation Center. www.uctc.net/access/access16.pdf (for those with slower links, www.uctc.net/access/access16lite.pdf). Being a good researcher, he gives a range of costs, with a most likely figure in parentheses. Mr. Gaarder manages to find one thin, poorly researched report from a young, fresh out of school post-doc "scientist" who has a "penchant" for putting phrases in "quotes" in his essay, and calls it The Final Trvth. I'm afraid Mark Delucchi's "report" is far from convincing, and is demonstrably wrong. Delucchi convenient ignores costs which are "hard" for him to calculate, and worse, completely ignore the cost of parking. The cost of parking is not that hard to calculate. The University of Minnesota's Center for Transportation Studies just did so recently. Moreover, Todd Litman of the Victoria Transport Policy Institute (Canada) and Allen Greenberg of the Federal Highway Administration (USA) refute many Delucchi's assumptions, claims and conclusions. You can read their refutation here: http://www.vtpi.org/delucchi.htm One conclusion is that efficient user fees would increase the cost of driving a car by 20 to 50 cents a mile, a 200-500% increase over current costs. Or another way to look at is, multiply the millions of miles driven per year by cars by .20 (cents) to get a LOW end estimate of the amount of subsidy automobile transportation gets from all sources, mostly the taxpayer at a variety of levels of government. 200-500% sure sounds like "magnitudes higher" to me, Mr. Gaarder. In fact, it sounds exactly like several magnitudes. So I guess my thinking is right, "in typical fashion." Despite that, I have nothing against cars or suburbs, per se. I am a car guy, as the popular saying goes. I just don't want to pay tax for Mn/DOT to pave part of my neighborhood, reducing property values and safety, and increasing noise and pollution, just so commuters from Elko, New Market and Lakeville can drive to their jobs in Roseville, Brooklyn Park and even downtown Minneapolis faster and easier. If they want to live that far out, they should pay the consequences, not me. Chris Johnson Fulton TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Lead removal
Another large cause of lead poisoning in children is outside the house in the dirt where the sod has worn away. I have seen many rental properties where the sod has completely worn away and kids play in the dirt and stick those dirty little hands into their mouths. So, in addition to paint, we need to find a solution to the lack of sod. The answer is not as simple as saying the landlord should replace it. Often times they do that again and again. People don't use the sidewalks and don't stay off the lawns when they are still fragile and don't water them. The new sod dies and your back to the same old problem. Glad to see there is an active discussion on this issue. It is important. Barb Lickness Whittier = "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Lead removal and Doing in the small city landlord
In all this debate about lead abatement, how horrible it is for children, and so forth, I haven't seen any evidence presented that the lead paint in Minneapolis homes, especially rental properties, is actually the major cause of lead found in children. While it sounds wonderful on the surface to say let's have a Minneapolis ordinanace that requires lead paint abatement and even provides some small assistance in that direction, the problem isn't that simple. I'm not denying that breathing or eating the dust of pulverized lead paint will cause elevated blood level levels. And I surely don't deny that lead is harmful. How many of those 33% of the kids in Minneapolis for lead actually had potentially dangerous lead levels? I know one family whose two daughters had such elevated levels. They live in a turn of last century Victorian house. As with the vast majority of homes in Minneapolis (since most homes were built here prior to 1970), they have lead paint. What's worse, we gutted and rehabbed several rooms, no doubt spreading paint dust all over the place. However, after pursuing a variety of lead abatement procedures, their daughters still had elevated lead levels. Where could it be coming from? Long story short: outdoors. Once they started having everyone who entered the house remove their shoes, the lead levels in the girls blood dropped to normal. Where did that lead come from? Gasoline. Up until the 1980s, virtually all gasoline had lead in it. In older neighborhoods in Minneapolis, leaded gasoline powered cars have been regularly driving along the streets for maybe 80 years or more. Some of the lead in the exhaust accumulates on the ground. Along busy streets in Minneapolis, a big ground pollutant to this day is still lead. How bad is it? The reason that Lake Street and Lagoon Street in Minneapolis were made into one-way streets in the 1980s was because the Lake Street / Hennepin Avenue intersection had some of the worst air pollution in the state. A major contributor? Particulate lead. As much as I hate to find myself agreeing with Craig Miller, I find myself highly skeptical of the idea of adding a fee to rental property owners under the auspices of fixing the lead problem in Minneapolis. Almost all homes in Minneapolis have lead paint in them. Up until a few years ago, all copper plumbing pipe solder had lead in it. Up until the 1980s, gasoline had lead in it. To this very day, the garbage burner spews lead into the air when it burns anything contaminated with lead, and rain brings it back to earth somewhere. Aviation gasoline still contains lead -- I know, let's get MAC to pay for lead abatement, too! If we're really worried about lead, let's find out how big the problem really is, and where it's really coming from. Chris Johnson Fulton TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] GreenSpace Partners Update
New on the GreenSpace Partners web site this week: *A tour of community gardens in Birmingham, Alabama *Free Mulch and Burlap for Minneapolis/Saint Paul community gardeners from Peace Coffee *Phillips Community GIS green space maps available online *Community Greening Spring Events Calendar *A new play about urban gardens by John Francis Bueche http://www.greeninstitute.org/GSP Please contact me if you have any questions. -Corrie Corrie Zoll, Program Director GreenSpace Partners A program of The Green Institute 2801 21st Avenue South, Suite 110 Minneapolis, MN 55407 Telephone 612-278-7119 Facsimile 612-278-7101 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.greeninstitute.org/GSP TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Proposal to close the Franklin Library
Brother Jim Graham makes a good case, but an incomplete one, for keeping the Franklin Library open. The best reason I can think of for protecting the library is that it serves residents for whom literacy continues to be an issue. What sense does it make to encourage (nay, insist) that our immigrant residents learn English if we're going to deprive them of the most important means for doing so? To close the Franklin Library would be an act of gratuitous meanness. Paul Weir Phillips TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Doing in the small city landlord
Craig Miller wrote: There are other programs available. State, Fed, County. Why does the city need to get involved? WM: If I remember right, the city got involved because the lead paint hazards are in the city. I think it was a risk management issue. Lead abatement is still a federal function, the HUD office is handling it why are we duplicating? WM: We are "duplicating" because the feds were doing bupkis. Also because their rules were being interpreted as requiring that housing come down. It was in our own self-interest to try to impact that mentality. There are requirements that neighborhood groups and individuals be hired as lead workers. Plans for supervision, training, CAREER DEVELOPMENT, and POST PROGRAM PLACEMENT of workers are required. WM: The lead abatement push here came out of Phillips neighborhood. Particularly important was the testimony of Dr. Lydia Caros at the Indian Health Board who was finding lead poisoned kids every time she turned around. (Their parents were bringing them in describing a general lassitude in the kids.) Phillips was/is also a place where people need jobs. It made perfect sense, knowing how many houses in Phillips had lead paint problems, to create jobs for Phillips residents. I remember sitting at the table discussing this. There were going to be six positions--the first six positions to do lead abatement in Phillips. I could have had one of the six jobs. I declined, knowing that already in my 40s, being up and down ladders and yanking windows, running around in a go to Mars suit, etc. was not my idea of a good time. Originally lead problems were "discovered" by either English or French doctors who were observing lead paint symptoms in adult house painters. It follows, therefore, that no one should do lead paint removal as a career to stay in for life. It is also a good idea to train people who have done the actual grunt work to become supervisors as the program grew. (Six lead removers were not going to be enough to get much done in a neighborhood of 17,000+ souls and no more than a dozen or two new houses.) It's really a disservice to rail at what has grown up to be a big effort without understanding the context in which it grew up. The children presenting symptoms to Dr. Caros lived in rental housing. Their families also had histories of whole clans of people who had "always" lived in rental housing from birth to death. Their kids' baby sitters, family and friends and home based day care providers all lived in rental housing as well. Since we had about $20 to cover all the costs, it made sense to put the money where the problem was most often observed. That landlords were not at the table, or that when they were their posture was contentious--as was that of families who were dealing with lead poisoned children,--is another story. It was those of us who were neither experiencing the effects of lead poisoning or owning any property, who guided the effort. As a result of my part in the lead poisoning effort in Phillips (I testified at the state hearing and listened hard to families about what and how they experienced life with lead poisoned family members) I was fired from People of Phillips. I joyfully became a gruntled ex-employee. I left POP with a blueprint of how to do lead poisoning abatement that centered on embracing the needs of families. I'm real proud of my part in bringing resources to Phillips to protect children and families from further lead poisoning. I did it in five months--the fasted one I ever did. I amazed myself that time. I'm proud to know Karen Clark who brought the legislature to bear on the issue. And Judy Adams, and Steve Compton who printed so much in the Alley newspaper. And Dr. Caros and the other doctors. And People of Phillips Exec. Dir. who let me do my work and tried, unsuccessfully, to defend me to the board. WizardMarks, Central Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Highest point
Jon Gorder asks: Does anyone have access to a geographical survey of our city? Steve Brandt: Here's a link to an online USGS survey of everywhere in the nation, plus aerial photos. I use this tool a lot to refresh my memory on the geography of an area I'm writing about. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/place.aspx Steve Brandt 477078.00 4975836.00 (In GIS-speak) TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Lead removal v.s. MAC 150
Many of the habits exhibited by children are what cause them to be more likely to contract lead poisoning. Young children are continually coming into contact with floors/lower walls with their hands and then putting their hands into their mouths (something most adults don't do nearly as frequently). One of the more likely surfaces (in a house) are old window sashes and door frames. Opening and closing windows creates friction between the sash and frame, which in turn, causes miniscule particles of paint "dust" to be loosened and fall to the surrounding area. Another very likely cause is the scraping of house exteriors prior to painting. While this practice became more highly regulated a few years ago, there are scrapings from prior paintings still lying in the dirt/grass alongside many of the pre-70's houses. If I had children, I would certainly spring for the cost of testing my home, as the effects of lead poisoning are both horrible and irreversible. Early symptoms, especially in younger children are very hard to detect. Dennis Plante Jordan MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Lead removal v.s. MAC 150
The solution is simple: Paint companies used lead in their paint. Millions of people bought the paint to 'paint the town'. Let the paint companies/consumers fund the solution. (Like the airlines and passengers are paying for the Sound Insulation Program). Ask these questions: How much money will it take to solve the problem? How long do you have to reasonably solve the problem? How much paint do we project to sell in Minnesota in during that time? Once you have these figures, you know what the surcharge will be for every pint/quart/gallon of paint sold in Minnesota during that time. When the problem is gone, the surcharge goes away. Ron Lischeid Windom From: Barbara Lickness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Minneapolis Issues Forum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> CC: "Gregory D. Luce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Mpls] Lead removal v.s. MAC 150 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 21:45:51 -0800 (PST) Here is the part I don't understand. Hundreds of homeowners in the flight paths of the airport are getting new doors, new windows, new air conditioners and other things added to their homes free of charge because they have to deal with noise issues from airplanes. Many of the recipients of the MAC 150 sound insulation program are middle to upper income people. We have hundreds of houses that have significant lead issues in them. These houses would benefit majorly from new windows, new doors and probably central air conditioning as well. More importantly, this remediation in these houses would prevent hundreds of children from life altering harm as a result of exposure to lead. I am glad for the people who live by the airport and their ability to leverage resources to alleviate the noise problems in their homes. I just wonder what the advocacy has been for people living in homes where there is lead? What incentives are there for landlords to address the problem? I know the city had a few programs but nothing that lasted over the long haul and certainly none that covered a large number of homes. I am not sure what the county has done to help this situation and I am not sure what Federal dollars were available for this issue. I believe the cities 10,000 windows program was funded by federal dollars. Phillips dealt with it to a minor degree in their NRP plan. Corcoran also addressed the issue slightly in their NRP plan. If anyone out there has more historical information as to why removing lead from homes has not been and is not as high a priority as insulating people's homes for airplane noise, I would like to know. It just doesn't seem right. Lead removal deserves to take at least the same priority. Barb Lickness Whittier = "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Re: Closing Community Libraries
Before everyone gets in too much of an uproar regarding Franklin Library, be aware that the Library Board vote this evening will be a _temporary_ closing of the Franklin branch during the renovations of the building. The same holds for the Sumner Library, which will also be closed during construction. These renovations are funded by the same library referendum that funds the new Central Library. The Library Board is not adopting any recommendations to close branches for good at today's meeting. Jim Berg Corcoran Neighborhood __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Lead removal v.s. MAC 150
Mark Snyder wrote: > I would encourage people who would like to know more about > the dangers of lead paint in homes to check out this fact > sheet from the Consumer Product Safety Commission. > http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/5054.html > Those who think the only concern is about paint chips are in for an > eye-opener this morning. Sure, let's just spread more fear and irrationality. Attempting to solve societal problems by throwing money away is not effective government or effective taxation. Please note that the report cited above says, "In communities where the houses are old and deteriorating..." "Deteriorating" being the key word. If lead paint is flaking or chalking then I agree that it is a bad thing, but if it is firm and stable there really is no problem, unless some fool comes along and starts dry sanding it. As I understand it, it unlikely that any child in Minneapolis (who is not eating paint chips) will have been exposed to more lead than I was growing up in L.A. in the 1950s. Ok, so I could be a lot smarter, but I'm doing ok (if being qualified to join Mensa means anything). > As far as costs, which is more cost-prohibitive - removing lead hazards from > homes or paying for the special education programs, increased health care > needs and in many cases, incarceration of adults who were exposed to lead as > children? Remember yesterday's post from WizardMarks mentioning a study at > one prison that showed 50% of inmates showed evidence of childhood lead > poisoning. "Correlation does not imply causation!" Do you have evidence that when matched for SES that %50 of unincarcerated adults do not show exposure to lead as children? > The worst part is we don't even really know how bad the problem is. The > Minnesota Department of Health screening guidelines recommend that all > children under age six receive blood lead testing. It is estimated that > only about a third of those children in Minneapolis have actually been > tested. We also don't know how bad the problem of space alien infiltration is, but do we really need to worry about it? If you really want to worry about household hazards, then worry about the lack of air circulation in new homes and the type of sealants and materials used in them. There are many materials that have not been tested and are likely to show up as health hazards twenty years from now. Do you want to provide some really useful information? Report the percentage of the 33% of children in tested Minneapolis that actually have dangerous levels of lead in their blood (33% is a huge sample). Next report the follow up studies that determined exactly what the source of this contamination was in their environments. It may turn out to have nothing to do with lead paint, and instead could be problems with their drinking water (bad soldering in copper pipes can also cause lead poisoning and I believe it is still used in new housing). I live in a house build in 1883. I can say with a high degree of certainty that there is lead paint in my house. I can say with the same degree of certainty that removing all of the lead paint would cost more than the value of the house. I have no intention of tearing down what is a wonderful example of Victorian architecture. I have had my blood tested while I was doing restoration. My wife was tested during both of her pregnancies. My children are both tested regularly and none of us has shown any evidence of elevated levels of lead. As a side note, for those of us really paranoid parents, as I understand it low levels of lead can be treated with iron supplements. Paranoid parent might also want to buy HEPA vacuums. So before scaring everyone to death and causing a political rush to save Minneapolis from lead paint, please do a rational analysis of the problem. Michael Atherton Prospect Park TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] cost of driving
Thanks to Carol for all the great links on the costs of our roads. I will be checking them out as the day goes on. I am confident that they will clearly show that the tax payers in MN have been greatly subsidizing the road infrastructure we so enjoy, and sometimes curse. Now if I am correct, why is it such a crime for the taxpayers of MN to subsidize other forms of transportation? Owning a car is a privilege, not a right. That comment will have my mother up in arms. Vehicle driving causes pollution, noise, traffic problems, etc., etc., etc. I am not advocating getting rid of vehicles, I just want drivers to pay their way, or quite complaining about all the 'subsidies' for busses, LRT, etc. I never plan to give up driving over 20,000 miles a year, but I think I should pay more proportionately for that privilege. If gas tax made gas 4 bucks a gallon, I would cut back because I couldn't afford to drive that much. That would open some road, create a bit less noise, and less pollution. Those I would consider good things. I doubt Exxon/mobile would agree with that though. Nor would MN Dot or AAA. Ronald Leurquin Waite Park TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Suburb/auto bashing
To Ronald Leurquin: You need to identify humor that looks just like the typical suburb/car bashing that is too frequent on this list. Chris Johnson, in the typical fashion, thinks that the costs of cars are "magnitudes higher". Carol Becker points you to some local research and then says that the gas tax doesn't come close, leaving an impression that Chris is right. I include quotations from that report at the end of this posting. You should also look to the article by Mark Delucchi, an advocate of rail transit, in Access magazine by the University of California Transportation Center. www.uctc.net/access/access16.pdf (for those with slower links, www.uctc.net/access/access16lite.pdf). Being a good researcher, he gives a range of costs, with a most likely figure in parentheses. He concluded that the marginal social cost (MSC) in cents per passenger mile of travelling: by gas auto is 5 to 28.4 (6.9); by electric auto it might be (not many to base upon) 8.6 to 24.8 (16.8); by bus it is 33 to 57 (40); by light rail it is 27 to 109; by heavy rail it is 17 to 53. That's why the title of the article is "Should We Try to Get the Prices Right?", since promoting the mode with the lowest marginal cost promotes cars. "It turns out, though, that it doesn't matter how one does the accounting. In virtually every case, the total subsidy to transit greatly exceeds the total subsidy to auto use, by passenger mile, in both absolute terms and relative to the prices users currently pay. Thus the elimination of subsidies in accordance with a plan for MSC pricing (and optimal investment) would, on average, reduce, not increase, the use of public transit." So, I'll quote some of the conclusions from the Center for Transportation Studies report: The Full Cost of Transportation in the Twin Cities. Remember that the transportation studied includes trucks, autos, and buses. So the costs and benefits include getting your food to the store, repair people to your house or business, etc. "Governmental costs are those borne by any level of government. Internal costs are those borne directly by the person who causes them, and external costs are costs that are not borne by the person who causes them." Note that external and governmental costs are often borne indirectly by the persons using transportation, like being taxed. Governmental costs include the cost of the transit system above and beyond the rider-paid fare, which amounts to 10 percent of the governmental costs. Remember the percentage of homes in the metro area without a car when considering the governamental cost issue. "Our midrange estimates were that 84 percent of full costs were internal, 9 percent were governmental, and 7 percent were external. Road construction and maintenance accounted for approximately 70 percent of governmental costs. Most time costs were nonmonetary and internal. The costs of travel time accounted for 40 percent of all costs and the costs of owning and operating vehicles also accounted for 40 percent. Approximately 98 percent of external costs were due to congestion, crashes, air pollution, and petroleum consumption." "The high volume of travel in the region reflects both the tremendous benefits people derive from transportation and the relatively low direct costs of transportation." "The size of the internal costs of transportation suggests that households and firms derive tremendous benefits from travel because they willingly pay a tremendous amount for travel. It also suggests that in an efficient transportation system, one where each user paid for all of the costs he or she imposed, people would probably NOT engage in a great deal less travel than they do now." "Because the share of costs that are external is relatively small, policies to reduce them should be carefully tailored to remedy specific externalities. Policies that are not carefully tailored run the risk of reducing the very large benefits of transportation by more than they reduce the significantly smaller external costs of transportation." Visit www.effectivetransit.org The Independent Unsubsidized Voice of Citizens for Effective Transit in the Twin Cities * lrt isn't a potato chip, you can stop at just one * Bruce Gaarder Highland Park Saint Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Doing in the small city landlord
> To be clear, Council Members Zerby and Zimmermann are co-authoring a > proposal where rental dwelling license fees will be increased by $3.00 > per unit to fund lead hazard reduction activities in Minneapolis. > Without the funding (which the Mayor originally proposed as part of his > budget but a council member amended the plan to pull it out), the lead > hazard control program may face elimination in the near future. If the city council didn't think this was good enough for the budget the first time, why hang the small landlords with the bill. Why are public health issues of all the people being paid for by renters? Why does a twenty something renter in Uptown have to pay for this? This > will mean that there may be NO response in the city to a lead-poisoned > child. Currently, the city is mandated to respond and issue lead > abatement orders requiring the homeowner or rental property owner to > abate the lead-based paint hazards, Then the city should fund this department out of general funds. but--because of funding--it also > provides financial resources and other significant services above and > beyond any state and federally mandated obligations. There are other programs availible. State, Fed, County. Why does the city need to get involved? The problem is that the programs currently avail are not user friendly. If the small landlord can't cut through the red tape like full time activist lawyer, they just get abatement orders and go broke. The house gets condemned and more affordable housing gets hauled to the dump. > Craig suggests that this funding mechanism is a way to "do in" the small > city landlord and "fund the further destruction of affordable rental > housing." In reality, funding the program does exactly the opposite: it > maintains a city program that has worked to preserve housing and avoid > condemnations related to lead-based paint hazards. Wrong, this proposal will fund a large contingent of "big lead" hunters. They will find lead every where. Because 95 % of the housing in Mpls has lead paint pipes solder, it's everywhere. Without a viable and > strong program (which is now considered a leader in the country), there > will be no resources available to a small landlord or homeowner if a > child is lead poisoned and mandated abatement must occur. See below, we have Fed, State, County With no > program, the city's only option is to tell a lead poisoned child and her > family that they must vacate their apartment unless the landlord > voluntarily abates the lead. The unit is then condemned. In the last > five years, with a strong lead hazard control program, there have been 0 > (i.e., zippo, nada, zed) condemnations. With the prospect of no > funding, there are now condemnations on the horizon and Project 504, for > its part, is strategizing to figure out how to prevent those > condemnations if there are no monies available to assist the landlord in > lead abatement work. Project 504 will take over the building and find the funds. The funds are going to be open to non-profits, connected developers, but not small mom and pop operators. > > The lead hazard control program is also extremely successful in bringing > in matching and contributing funds, such that $1 committed by the city > often leads to $5-$10 in matching state and federal funds. With no city > money committed to lead hazard control, the city loses these monies and > cannot even apply for federal grants. Thus, we cease to have a program > with little chance of reestablishing it without either dedicated funds > or general fund appropriations (which in this fiscal environment is near > next to impossible). Let's play along for the moment. Let's assume the city puts up a couple million. In comes the mana from state and feds. 504 would have us believe that they can test, analyze, work order, abate and make all better while antagonizing the landlord (ask any landlord that has dealt with them) divide the landlord and tenant relationship ( which is more poisonus in Mpls then any city I know) pay their staff and workers and get a lead free city. Why not have the city put up the bucks, get the match from state/fed. Hire a form processor. Fill out the forms with the landlord, get the money do the work and get the test done after work is completed. Leave 504 and the vultures out of the loop. Lead abatement is still a federal function, the HUD office is handling it why are we duplicating? I believe this is just another plan for 504 to pay it's bills. Check out current statute. http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/119A/46.html This is state law with state funding. Why are landlords and their tenants going to have to pay for the following. Programs to ensure full time employment119A.46 subd 2 Grants awarded under this section must be made in consultation with housing finance agency, reps of neighborhood groups, a labor organization, lead coalition community action agecies and the le
Re: [Mpls] Lead removal v.s. MAC 150
On 3/26/03 6:30 AM, "Michael Atherton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I believe that almost all houses and buildings built > before 1970 have some lead painted surfaces. If you live > in such a home, it is exceedingly likely that it has > lead paint. In most cases the cost of removing the > all painted surfaces is cost prohibitive (i.e., it is more > practical to demolish the structure). And, as I understand it, > lead paint like asbestos, is only dangerous in certain > situations and as long as it is stabilized there's no problem. > Removing lead paint from all the homes in Minneapolis is > an absurd idea. I would encourage people who would like to know more about the dangers of lead paint in homes to check out this fact sheet from the Consumer Product Safety Commission. http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/5054.html Those who think the only concern is about paint chips are in for an eye-opener this morning. As far as costs, which is more cost-prohibitive - removing lead hazards from homes or paying for the special education programs, increased health care needs and in many cases, incarceration of adults who were exposed to lead as children? Remember yesterday's post from WizardMarks mentioning a study at one prison that showed 50% of inmates showed evidence of childhood lead poisoning. The worst part is we don't even really know how bad the problem is. The Minnesota Department of Health screening guidelines recommend that all children under age six receive blood lead testing. It is estimated that only about a third of those children in Minneapolis have actually been tested. More information about lead hazards is available on the Minnesota Department of Health web site at: http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/lead/ Mark Snyder Windom Park TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Doing in the small city landlord
Excellent post. Clearly lead poisoning is horrible and we are all concerned. However, Since this program benefits everyone and all properties, why fund the program via rental properties? With the pressure to develop and retain affordable housing, we should be critical of all expenses directed at tenants. I know a quarter is a measly lot. However for my St. Paul properties (sorry, I have not calculated my Mpls properties yet), the 2003 INCREASE in taxes and fees add up to $11.05 per month per tenant. As they say: A quarter here, a quarter there and soon we are talking about real money. Maybe $11.05 isn't much to you, but I know many tenants that cannot afford it. One fixed income tenant I have recently asked me if she should be looking for a new apartment because she cannot afford to pay for all of the capital improvements I made. I told her not to worry; no rent increase was coming. As you carry in your gumball, please ask yourself these questions: 1) Should we fund this lead based program on the backs of tenants (usually the poorest of us all)? Or 2) Should everyone support this program and all property owners pay the quarter per month? Maybe it will be just a nickel if we each pay our fair share?! Regards, Bill Cullen. Hopkins -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Charlie Warner Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 4:45 PM To: Craig Miller Cc: Issues Mpls Subject: Re: [Mpls] Doing in the small city landlord Craig Miller wrote: > City staff has teamed up with 504 to fund the further destruction of > affordable rental housing. > This time the bogeyman is lead. Greg Luce, of Project 504, asked me to post this for him. Craig and others: I am no longer on the Minneapolis Issues list, but wanted to respond to a forwarded post to me by Craig Miller about "doing in" the small city landlord. And, while I have some people's attention, sign on to Project 504's statement of support about this program at http://www.project504.org/pages/611171/index.htm To be clear, Council Members Zerby and Zimmermann are co-authoring a proposal where rental dwelling license fees will be increased by $3.00 per unit to fund lead hazard reduction activities in Minneapolis. Without the funding (which the Mayor originally proposed as part of his budget but a council member amended the plan to pull it out), the lead hazard control program may face elimination in the near future. This will mean that there may be NO response in the city to a lead-poisoned child. Currently, the city is mandated to respond and issue lead abatement orders requiring the homeowner or rental property owner to abate the lead-based paint hazards, but--because of funding--it also provides financial resources and other significant services above and beyond any state and federally mandated obligations. Craig suggests that this funding mechanism is a way to "do in" the small city landlord and "fund the further destruction of affordable rental housing." In reality, funding the program does exactly the opposite: it maintains a city program that has worked to preserve housing and avoid condemnations related to lead-based paint hazards. Without a viable and strong program (which is now considered a leader in the country), there will be no resources available to a small landlord or homeowner if a child is lead poisoned and mandated abatement must occur. With no program, the city's only option is to tell a lead poisoned child and her family that they must vacate their apartment unless the landlord voluntarily abates the lead. The unit is then condemned. In the last five years, with a strong lead hazard control program, there have been 0 (i.e., zippo, nada, zed) condemnations. With the prospect of no funding, there are now condemnations on the horizon and Project 504, for its part, is strategizing to figure out how to prevent those condemnations if there are no monies available to assist the landlord in lead abatement work. The lead hazard control program is also extremely successful in bringing in matching and contributing funds, such that $1 committed by the city often leads to $5-$10 in matching state and federal funds. With no city money committed to lead hazard control, the city loses these monies and cannot even apply for federal grants. Thus, we cease to have a program with little chance of reestablishing it without either dedicated funds or general fund appropriations (which in this fiscal environment is near next to impossible). What is done with the federal and state monies? It funds programs to install new windows and abate lead hazards, at a highly subsidized rate to homeowners and landlords (in most cases, I believe the property owner foots about 1/3 or less of the overall bill). It funds a program that writes down interest rates to 0% on loans to abate hazards. It provides free lead risk assessments to property owners. It funds abatement work in home-based daycare. These direc
RE: [Mpls] Lead removal v.s. MAC 150
Barb Lickness wrote: > If anyone out there has more historical information as > to why removing lead from homes has not been and is > not as high a priority as insulating people's homes > for airplane noise, I would like to know. It just > doesn't seem right. Lead removal deserves to take at > least the same priority. I believe that almost all houses and buildings built before 1970 have some lead painted surfaces. If you live in such a home, it is exceedingly likely that it has lead paint. In most cases the cost of removing the all painted surfaces is cost prohibitive (i.e., it is more practical to demolish the structure). And, as I understand it, lead paint like asbestos, is only dangerous in certain situations and as long as it is stabilized there's no problem. Removing lead paint from all the homes in Minneapolis is an absurd idea. Michael Atherton Prospect Park TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Closing Community Libraries - Cutting Off Ones Feet To Pay For A Face Lift
The Minneapolis Public Library Board will vote on the closing of the Franklin Library on Wed, March 26, at 6:00 pm at 250 So Marquette Ave, 4th Floor. The closing is included in agenda item 6 e) Budget Reduction, "Suspend operations at Franklin and Sumner." The Franklin Library is more than just the wonderful old building on Franklin Ave. It is the heart of the community. Closing such community libraries to support building a glass castle downtown is foolish. The downtown glass castle is nothing more than the pretty face on the library body. Libraries should not be magnificent "museums" of knowledge, they should be living institutions that support learning and community. It would be unfortunate if the Library Board decided to sell its organs in order to justify its vanity. Without the community library organs, the pretty face will surely die. Minneapolis must begin to place substance above pretty fluff. Minneapolis must begin to understand that the communities and neighborhoods ARE the City. If we do not sustain them the City will not be worth living in, and will surely wither and die Please attend to voice your concerns and pass this information on to others who may be concerned. Thank You Jim Graham, Ventura Village >Without conflict communication and novel synthesis of information >cannot take place. Conflict is the fertile soil in which creativity grows. TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
