[Mpls] Walker library and Bureau of Mines
The Walker Library Task Force came to the conclusion that there is no money no matter how you slice, dice, price and tif. The short term patch would be for 10 years at a price of $134,000.00. The long term patch including strengthing structure and placing membrane..$675,000. Short term seems the most sensible to me. That little parcel of Uptown dirt shines like gold and it is only a matter of time. How much did this task force cost? What do we know now that we did not know a year ago? A two day open house was held at the Sheraton in Saint Paul pertaining to the Bureau of Mines. The DNR wants to relinquish stewardship. Some of the area is well protected... but not all of it as one would think. Having the road built through the area damaged the *integrity of condition* since it altered the the surroundings. Supposedly, over 100 purposals have been looked at for development. It was interesting as to what makes it historical... spelled out in the Guidelines for Evaluating and Documenting Traditional Cultural Properties by the US Department of the Interior. The formation of the land, the spring, the history of the Natives and the settlement of the fort were the items that I deemed of historical importance. Wrong..according to Government employee Johnit is the Bureau of Mines that holds fast to the primary rank. So toss hundreds of years of cultural significance into the cool clear Mississippi and whip out the experiments and testings of the 40's and 50's in Aqua sheet metal. Whatever it takes! People that I have spoken to seem to have strong negative feelings about the Minneapolis Park Board, possible the next stewards of the landperhaps with good reason but perhaps premature... Dorie Gallagher Nokomis REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Flags
The coming and goings of great men and persons of state are oft times marked by flags, banners, horns and fanfare. All sorts of pomp and circumsatnce to fix meaning to great men lives and great ideas. In the end, the flags and pageantry are for the living, to remind us of who we are, our values, and hopes and dreams. Yet, where is the similar community sense of loss when one of Minneapolis citizens is lost to an act of violence? Should not the city's fly at half mast for victims of murder, or should they fly at all? Is not the life of one of our own as valuable as a head of state? Is not the murder of one person a failure of not only one individual (the criminal) but a failure of the greater community? Indeed there are groups and organizations in Minneapolis who have reconized the lost of a single citizen and how that loss affects the community. But these efforts have yet to turn the tide of violence. It's not just murder that should be abated, its all acts of violence. My daugther turns five today. In Pre-School they share a simple refrain to bless any special event. The children hold hands and state We wish for Peace, Love, and Happiness for all the children of the World. Oh, to have the wisdom of a five year old. Musing in Hanalei Greg Reinhardt REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Free bikes and other bike programing
Minneapolitans, The Bicycle and Pedestrian Alliance has a few new programs relevant to Minneapolis this month: 1) Full Cycle: http://www.bikeped.org/FullCycle/We will be giving 10 bicycles and commuter kits (i.e. helmets and such) and riding mentors to folks who pledge to replace car commuting trips. http://www.bikeped.org/FullCycle/ 2) We are partnering to start a bicycle riding club on the Mpls. Greenway for immigrant students. There will be a launch on the Greenway (at Bryant) on the 14th of April at 3:00 http://www.bikeped.org/MediaReleases/WellstoneClub.html 3) Folks may also be interested in the repair and riding classes scheduled at the Sibley Bike Depot. All classes are open to the public. Members receive a discount. Please call ahead to register as classes fill quickly! * Basic bike repair for kids class: April 19, 2005 (6:30pm - 8:30pm) * Bottom brackets and headsets class: April 26, 2005 (6:30pm - 8:30pm) * Basics of bicycling class: May 10, 2005 (6:30pm - 8:30pm) * Wheelbuilding class: May 17, 2005 (6:00pm - 10:00pm) * Bike rack installation class: May 19, 2005 (6:00pm - 7:30pm) * Basic bicycle repair class: May 24, 2005 (6:30pm - 8:30pm) Full descriptions at: http://www.bikeped.org/Calendar/report.php?report_id=2 Finally, for more bicycle news, without a Minneapolis angle, check out our April newsletter: http://www.bikeped.org/Newsletters/NewsletterApr2005.html You may subscribe to receive the full newsletter directly each summer month at: http://www.bikeped.org/mailinglist.php Towards a more human powered future, -- Andrew Koebrick (Seward (Mpls.) / W7th (St. Paul)) Minnesota Bicycle and Pedestrian Alliance, President www.bikeped.org 651-222-2080 --Sibley Bike Depot 612-276-0641 --Home The MBPA is a 501(c)3 member supported non-profit dedicated to facilitating biking and walking as a healthy form of transportation. In addition to advocacy and education, we also run the Sibley Bike Depot, a community bicycle education facility in downtown St. Paul. REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Minneapolis Bonding Requests (Final Disposition?)
Governor Pawlenty discusses two Minneapolis bonding requests: $1 million Schubert (in) and $2 million Colin Powell Youth Center (out). Here is the link to the Star Tribune story: _http://www.startribune.com/stories/587/5332073.html_ (http://www.startribune.com/stories/587/5332073.html) Bill Dooley Kenny REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] 'Citizen Participation' still a myth; 'Activist Participation' not a myth
Bob Johnson wrote: D. The sad thing is that the longer this myth (hoax) is allowed to persist, the longer will real City problems go unanswered. The neighborhood residents should band together to work with their elected representatives in order to solve real City problems (which are not cig smoke, diesel fumes, leaf blowers, etc.) So what are you going to _do_ about it? I hear lots and lots of complaints on this list. The power lies with those who wield it. The question is, are we courageous enough to use it? I'm active at several levels of government, including the city. So are others on this list. What about all the rest of the list members? David Greene The Wedge REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] 'Citizen Participation' still a myth; 'Activist Participation' not a myth
David - It is much easier to do nothing and sit back and criticize those who are. You know, the old arm chair quarterback thing. Peace. Barb Lickness Whittier Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. -- Margaret Mead REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Sabo Cosponsors Military Readiness Enhancement Act- Thanks for calls
I want to thank members of this list who called Rep. Sabo and asked him to cosponsor the Military Readiness Enhancement Act which would repeal the don't ask, don't tell policy of the U.S. armed forces and replace it with a policy of nondiscrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. Sabo became the 73rd sponsor(72nd cosponsor) of the bill 4/5/2005 joining initial cosponsors from MN Rep. Jim Oberstar and Rep. Betty McCollum(3/02/05). As two states have already added sexual orientation nondiscrimination laws this year(Illinois and Maine) and two more are expected to pass this year(Washington state and Deleware) more than half the U.S. population may be protected by state level nondiscrimination laws that include sexual orientation by the end of this year. The number of states that protect people from discrimination on the basis of gender identity is also expected to double this year with laws already passing in Illinois and Maine which are expected to be joined by Washington state and Hawaii. This is remarkable as in the year 2000 Minnesota was the only state to provide protection from discrimination on the basis of gender identity and as of the passage of the statewide law in Illinois this Jan., 27% of the U.S. population was protected by state or District of Columbia laws banning discrimination on the basis of gender identity. Just thought I'd share a little of the good news from around the country as it doesn't get as much of a hearing as the (imo) bad news about the antigay marriage/civil union/domestic partnership constitutional amendments that have passed in some states. David Strand Loring Park __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates. http://personals.yahoo.com REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Sabo Cosponsors Military Readiness Enhancement Act- Thanks for calls
David Strand wrote: I want to thank members of this list who called Rep. Sabo and asked him to cosponsor the Military Readiness Enhancement Act which would repeal the don't ask, don't tell policy of the U.S. armed forces and replace it with a policy of nondiscrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. Thank you, David Strand, for this good news. One of the things I like about Rep. Sabo is that he does have common sense. I like that in a politician. Sometimes I despair of seeing it in so few national representatives. If ever there was a policy designed to be abused, Don't Ask Don't Tell would be a medalist. WizardMarks, Central Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Compromise Bonding Bill Final Draft
Here is the link to the conference committee report of the bonding bill. This is the version that has been reported in the media (dated 4/5). Sorry its long, but I tried to pick out the parts that are most Minneapolis relevant to save you the trouble. A couple of items of note: 1) 12.35 million for housing for homeless individuals, including eliminating a prefence for projects that target families and children over single individuals. 2) 22 million for the Planetarium, 1 million for the Shubert center (which still rates higher than a disco ball). 3) 37.5 million for Northstar, including an LRT extension to meet up with the Minneapolis terminus. 4) 5.25 million for Central Corridor transit between Minneapolis and St. Paul. 5) Fuji_ya language is refined a bit, includes the permission to sell and split proceeds with state, retains langauge preferencing East Phillips Cultural Center predesign as first recipient of proceeds. http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/data/house/ccr/ls84/ccrhf0003.html Best, aaron klemz cooper Highlights for Minneapolis U of M - Twin Cities Campus Kolthoff Hall Redesign 17,400,000 Education Sciences Renovation 14,500,000 Minneapolis Community and Technical College Health Sciences Center 900,000 Flood Hazard Mitigation Minneapolis eligible for a share of 27,000,000 Greenways Metro-wide, sharing 500,000 to be designated by the Commissioner of the DNR Northstar Commuter Rail 37,500,000 including an extension of LRT to the Northstar Rail terminus Central Corridor 5,250,000 For design work on Central Corridor Transport Between Minneapolis and St. Paul Red Rock Corridor 500,000 For predesign of tranistway from Hastings to Minneapolis through St. Paul Metropolitan Regional Parks Capital Improvements 14,664,000 Columbia Parkway, Ridgeway Parkway, and Stinson Boulevard are considered to be part of the metropolitan regional recreation open space system. Minneapolis Veterans Home1,031,000 For the state's portion of the cost to remodel Building 4 to provide adult day care services in the surrounding communities. Minnesota Planetarium 22,000,000 For a grant to the city of Minneapolis to complete design and to construct, furnish, and equip a new Minnesota planetarium and space discovery center in conjunction with the Minneapolis downtown library. Heritage Park Any unspent balance remaining on December 31, 2004, in the appropriation made by Laws 2000, chapter 492, article 1, section 22, subdivision 10, for a grant to the city of Minneapolis, may be used by the city for improvements to the Heritage Park project. Minnesota Shubert Center 1,000,000 For a grant to the city of Minneapolis to predesign and design and provide for related capital costs for an associated atrium to create the Minnesota Shubert Center. HOUSING FINANCE AGENCY Housing the Homeless 12,000,000 For loans and grants for publicly owned permanent rental housing for persons who have been without a permanent residence for at least 12 months or on at least four occasions in the last three years or are at significant risk of lacking a permanent residence for at least 12 months or on at least four occasions in the last three years. The housing must provide or coordinate with linkages to services necessary for residents to maintain housing stability and maximize opportunities for education and employment. Notwithstanding Minnesota Statutes, section 462A.202, subdivision 3a, the commissioner shall give equal consideration to proposals for projects serving individuals and those serving families with children. Preference among comparable proposals shall be given to proposals for the acquisition and rehabilitation of property. Supportive Housing 350,000 For a grant to the Hennepin County Housing and Redevelopment Authority to design 64 units of affordable, stable, and supportive housing, including some units targeted at those experiencing long-term homelessness. Fort Snelling Historic Site1,000,000 To design, construct, furnish, and equip the most urgent preservation projects needed for historic Fort Snelling. Fuji-Ya Property Sale The Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board may sell the property known as the Fuji Ya Restaurant property. The sale amount must be at least the property's fair market value. The property may be sold to a private entity. The proceeds must be distributed as provided in this subdivision. (a) Up to $750,000 of the net proceeds of the sale may be applied by the Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board to prepay the full lease amount for a public parking facility constructed on the Fuji Ya site if the board has entered into a 99-year lease agreement with the owner for at least 85 parking stalls. The remaining net proceeds, estimated to be $1,750,000, must be split equally between
[Mpls] 'Citizen Participation' still a myth; 'Activist Participation' not...
Is the idea of the original post to take away participation from those who show up and concentrate decision-making elsewhere? This seems like it doesn't address the core problem he's pointed out, which is we need MORE citizen participation in order to improve our neighborhoods. How does taking the opportunity away from those who choose to be actively involved at the neighborhood level increase participation? There is not a quick fix to shifting away from apathy and disconnected neighbors... we need a long-term strategy that will continue to bring MORE participation in at the neighborhood level. As the process continues to become better known, even through criticisms such as those below, more people will learn that YES, I CAN have a significant say in what happens in MY neighborhood... that is a VERY GOOD direction to take. I disagree with the suggestion that somehow handing off this decision-making to elected officials makes the process better. Let the neighbors have a say... that will lead to increased neighborhood involvement over the long-term. Nikki Carlson Linden Hills REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] The value of citizen participation NRP style
Citizen participation as exemplified in the Minneapolis NRP process provides a significant feature that was missing prior to the NRP program except for a brief period in it's very ancient precursor, the Minneapolis Model City program. Most citizen particpation/advisory venues that have existed in the city have been relatively prescribed in their focus and usually, have little ability for out of the box inititatives. The CLIC Board for example can propose priorities for bonding and have influence on how bonding gets done. It has little power to create a new project for which bonding may be used. (I suppose they could, but as a general rule they do not.) In contrast, the NRP project empowers activists within a community to coallesce around a concept that has support within their local area, that might not otherwise garner the attention of a city staff neccesarily focused on ongoing operations. It is this power of intiative that makes NRP valuable in the long run. The second significant contribution of NRP that can serve as a two edge sword for elected officials, is that it provides a mechanism for those who desire to be active to get involved in the proverbial sandbox. Not a few city leaders past, present and future learned at least some of the nuts and bolts via the process. This is a good thing. A Poly Sci 101 course does not equip anyone to run for and serve in office. Activity in a neighborhood can however acquaint folks with people and process not to mention issues. Its true that neighborhood groups can sometimes get a little out of line in their self importance and from time to time believe they speak for their neighborhoods. In fact they speak for a segment of their neighborhoods, that set of activists that choose to participate in their arena. That may not include other activists who are more focused on national state or international issues or who choose to be involved via political parties or by writting blogs or essays on the Mpls issues list. Others may seek to improve society via other civic groups or churches or by volunteering their services in other ways. The number of potential venues for involvement are extensive, but few are as geographically based as the neighborhood. Within a city it makes sense to consider geographical interests. What makes the NRP process democratic small d, is that they are by rule and practice open to any and all that choose to engage themselves. The fact that some groups tend to be underrepresented is an issue, but not in and of itself a reason to gut the mechanism. In my opinion it is still any Americans right to go home from work, kick of his/her shoes, grab a beer and the remote and not go to any meetings. That however, should not disenfranchise those who for whatevever purpose decide they will. In my neighborhood, I am leading a project to explore the possibilities of some alternative bus routing within our community. It may or may not make sense, but it's getting looked at. Without NRP the concept wouldn't ever get the time of day. That's the power, and the value. There are countless other examples throughout the NRP experience. Earl Netwal Past Policy and Planning Council Member Model Cities (1971-3) Subsequenlty Alderman Ward 6 (1973-7) Curently Board Member NENA REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] 'Citizen Participation' still a myth; 'Activist Participation' not a myth
Barbara Lickness wrote: David - It is much easier to do nothing and sit back and criticize those who are. You know, the old arm chair quarterback thing. Peace. Oh, stop. It was ever thus. The NRP has been less than perfect, their record is spotty in organizing who showed up to make the decisions. (Unexpectedly, Phillips did a fairly good job of getting people from all walks of life within their boundaries to show up. Good on them. Not to say that others didn't, but Phillips stands out on the south side to me.) That they couldn't continue that level of organizing push for ten years running should not surprise anyone. That's a lot to ask of humans. The whole point of the NRP, originally, was to organize neighborhoods to address those issues ignored, undefended, underfunded, neglected, and screwed up by successive powers-that-be for thirty years and by an expensive and long-winded focus on the downtown of Mpls. There was a built-in tension between departments of the city and the populace, particularly in the nine worst-rated neighborhoods where the work would be most difficult. The stipends issued were connected largely to the housing stock and other infrastructural decline as a result of those same powers. I don't believe that Mr. Green takes those tensions into account. At the same time, activists really are those people who have the time to devote to showing up for a zillion meetings, three times that many phone calls, and the rape and rapine of several forests for miles of paper. Face it, democracy is labor and resource intensive. Some folks will not commit to that much palaver (or submit to it). Others will commit only so long, then they walk away from fatigue, not wanting to die with their boots on, so to speak. There is a sort of Shakespearean inevitability about it--last one left standing wins. The last one standing, in a protracted engagement, is sometimes the most doggedly bovine. WizardMarks, Central Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] 'Citizen Participation' still a myth; 'Activist Participation' not...
Nikki Carlson wrote: Is the idea of the original post to take away participation from those who show up and concentrate decision-making elsewhere? The idea is to have government funding decisions made by proportional representation rather than special interests (can't get much more special than giving power to those who just show up). This isn't a new concept, it's very similar to equal protection under the law. This seems like it doesn't address the core problem he's pointed out, which is we need MORE citizen participation in order to improve our neighborhoods. How does taking the opportunity away from those who choose to be actively involved at the neighborhood level increase participation? I am able to choose my government representatives. I am unable to have any say about who shows up and decides how to spend my tax dollars in my own neighborhood. Case in point (and inherent NRP problem). Bill Kahn posts the following to the List Michael Atherton wrote: The Children's Museum moved to St. Paul. Bill Kahn corrects: The Children's Museum has always been in St. Paul near Como Park. As it turns out Bill Kahn doesn't know what he's talking about, as happens often at PPERRIA meetings (though not necessarily Mr. Kahn). Do these errors EVER get corrected at PPERRIA meetings. NO! They are just perpetuated, because the ill-informed, rude, abrasive, and discourteous show-ups are unwilling to respect minority voices. In one case there was false information included in the minutes of a previous meeting. We pointed this out and even played an audio recording of the previous meeting to verify that the minutes were false. We were then accused of altering the tape and they voted to approve the inaccurate minutes. Are there any legitimate protections to guard against these abuses? NO! Grievances are heard by the same people who perpetuate false information and maintain and protect the NRP. There is not a quick fix to shifting away from apathy and disconnected neighbors... we need a long-term strategy that will continue to bring MORE participation in at the neighborhood level. What if I don't want to participate? I do now only out of self-defense. What if I want to spend time with my family rather than being insulted and abused by my neighbors? As the process continues to become better known, even through criticisms such as those below, more people will learn that YES, I CAN have a significant say in what happens in MY neighborhood... that is a VERY GOOD direction to take. I disagree with the suggestion that somehow handing off this decision-making to elected officials makes the process better. Let the neighbors have a say... that will lead to increased neighborhood involvement over the long-term. You want a quick fix for NRP? 1) Elect neighborhood representatives for each block in the general elections; one person one vote. But, noo this won't serve the interests of whose who show up because they'd have to have their credentials publicly vetted. The show-ups could still come to the neighborhood meetings, they just wouldn't be able to dominate them. 2) Provide a residents' Bill of Rights. 3) Have grievances adjudicated by independent parties. None these things will happen because the NRP is not really about neighborhood participation, it's about putting power into the hands of the few and bypassing the many. It's just a different few than those we get to elect. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] 'Citizen Participation' still a myth; 'Activist Participation' not...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is not a quick fix to shifting away from apathy and disconnected neighbors... we need a long-term strategy that will continue to bring MORE participation in at the neighborhood level. As the process continues to become better known, even through criticisms such as those below, more people will learn that YES, I CAN have a significant say in what happens in MY neighborhood... that is a VERY GOOD direction to take. I disagree with the suggestion that somehow handing off this decision-making to elected officials makes the process better. Let the neighbors have a say... that will lead to increased neighborhood involvement over the long-term. Nikki Carlson Linden Hills Well said. All processes will have some flaws in them; as humans we simply cannot perfect something big and complicated like civic policy and governance. So should we throw the baby out with the bathwater? Just because the current process for citizen involvement tends to favor those who show up is an inadequate reason for getting rid of it. Of course NRP has not been perfect, but it has done a lot of good, directly and indirectly, as others point out. Would we have been better off if all that NRP money had stayed in the MCDA or other city coffers? There is no way to prove that argument one way or the other, but if there were, I'd be willing to bet NRP has done a better job than if the decision making had been done by elected officials. -- Chris Johnson Fulton REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Walker library and Bureau of Mines
I do support smart urban planning principles such as mixed-use projects and green buildings. The issue here is a funding gap of over a million dollars. The library board found this out in our original study (over two years ago) and that is why (as well as a sense of urgency to repair the parking deck for the safety of our patrons) the library board requested the bonds to be sold and the roof/parking deck to be repaired. The City Council rejected our bond request and the Walker Library Task Force was formed (July 2004) to study a mixed-use project on the same site of the library. There were some very interesting and exciting proposals presented to the task force, but none of them were feasible at this time. We also were able to clarify the cost and options on repairing the parking deck. I will support a financially sound mixed-use project that includes a greatly enhanced library for the residents and patrons at Walker. We need more community engagement in issues related to mix-use and height of the project. I support the minimal repairs to the parking deck/roof that will keep the Walker Library safe for our patrons, allow the library to remain open, and a proper (long-term) study of a mixed-use development that will provide a greatly enhanced library. This option will limit traffic in parking lot, install barriers at ends to limit height of vehicles, limit the load capacity, and repair cracks in the concrete roof structure. Repair of the cracks would restore the structure to its original strength. (cost estimate: $134,000 short-term vs. over $675,000 long-term complete fix). Below is the resolution that passed by the Walker Task Force and will be forwarded to the Library Board, if approved by the board the request will be sent to the City Council for final approval for bonds to be sold. Thank you, Rod Krueger Library Board Nokomis East - 12th Ward www.rodkrueger.org WALKER LIBRARY TASK FORCE RESOLUTION WHEREAS, the Walker Library Task Force (Task Force) concludes that a greatly improved Walker Library is necessary to meet the library service needs of the immediate community; and WHEREAS, the Walker Library Task Force met on February 23, 2005 to review four development proposals submitted to redevelop the Walker Library as a mixed-use development on the current Walker Library site, and concluded further that additional financial analysis of the proposals was warranted; and WHEREAS, subsequent CPED staff analysis concluded that none of the four development proposals is likely to be financially feasible; and WHEREAS, the Task Force acknowledged the importance of a comprehensive community engagement to inform the scope of a potential mixed-use Walker Library Project, particularly regarding design issues related to the Walker Library site redevelopment, as well as additional information pertaining to proposed developments in the vicinity of Walker Library; and WHEREAS, the Task Force acknowledges that the Walker Library parking deck is in need of structural repair; and WHEREAS, the Library Board has approved a Community Library Capital Projects (CLPC) schedule for all community libraries, with Walker Library improvements planning to begin in 2008; and NOW, THEREFORE, be it resolved that the Walker Library Task Force hereby recommends rejection of all development proposals received under the Walker Library RFP dated 1 February 2005; BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Library Board determine the best way to mitigate the structural damage in light of the consensus expressed for a greatly improved Walker Library; BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Library Board might consider revisiting the CLCP schedule, moving the Walker Library Capital Project up. BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that, when the Library Board commences the Walker Library Capital Project design process, the Library Board and City Council jointly begin to pursue the development of a greatly improved, financially feasible Walker Library, and during the design process, engage the community to develop mixed-use design parameters pertaining to height, density, traffic volume and patterns, and relation of site development to foot, bicycle, auto and mass transit traffic, as well as surrounding land uses. BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Walker Library Task Force be dissolved. [Mpls] Walker library and Bureau of Mines Dorie Rae Gallagher Tue, 05 Apr 2005 23:29:39 -0700 The Walker Library Task Force came to the conclusion that there is no money no matter how you slice, dice, price and tif. The short term patch would be for 10 years at a price of $134,000.00. REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see:
[Mpls] City Hall flag - send your checks
Thanks Terrell for suggesting to send your checks to those fighting to maintain the separation of church and state--and keep personal theology out of public policy. The one thing I would say is that instead of sending your checks to NARAL Pro-Choice America in Washington, DC, send them directly to the Minnesota affiliate (www.prochoiceminnesota.org) which will use 100% of proceeds for work in Minnesota. NARAL Pro-Choice MINNESOTA is actually holding an event at (smoke-free) Jitters Bar Cafe on Monday, April 11th, 6-8pm. It's the annual Beer, Wine, and Chocolate Tasting. Live music will be featured. Find out more and RSVP at www.prochoiceminnesota.org. Derek Burrows Reise Longfellow, Mpls Employee of NARAL Pro-Choice Minnesota (Yes, it's a shameless plug, but the event should be fun!) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 06:38:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Terrell Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Mpls] City Hall flag I think it is inappropriate, even wrong, to lower the flag atop City Hall to honor a religious leader. First, in this country there is still allegedly a separation between church and state. Second, choosing this particular religious leader looks like a pandering for votes. In my memory this honor hasnt been given to the leader of Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, even Lutheranism. In this case you have chosen to honor someone who was leading in a direction that many in this city dont want to go. He was anti-choice (send your check to NARAL ProChoice America to fight on that one), anti-gay (Outfront MN will take your check to fight on that one) and anti-woman (Emilys list will help the more rational minded there). Lets stop the charade and put the flag back at the top of the pole where it belongs. Terrell Brown 110 West Grant Street (Loring Park) Minneapolis 55403 __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] City Hall flag - send your checks
Derek Burrows Reise wrote: NARAL Pro-Choice MINNESOTA is actually holding an event at (smoke-free) Jitters Bar Cafe on Monday, April 11th, 6-8pm. It's the annual Beer, Wine, and Chocolate Tasting. Live music will be featured. That's what I love about Minneapolis, It's the Irony! (To paraphrase Colonel Kurtz). Pro-Choice at the forcedly smoke-free Jitters Bar Café. I mean heck, maybe we should just force women to carry babies to term, it'd do wonders for the health of unborn children. While you're sending in your checks for pro-choice you might want to consider the State ACLU Branch: www.aclu-mn.org, which is also having a Benefit at the (smoke-free) Minneapolis Convention Center. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] City Hall flag
I forget. Are City Hall flags at half-staff today for Prince Ranier of Monaco or Saul Bellow? Or was there another big claim settled by the Council? Steve Brandt Kingfield Always at half staff REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Smoking ban participation
I've been following the businesses that have been benefiting from the ban. That is good. However, there are businesses that were crushed last week-end. Many of the neighborhood bars in Northeast Minneapolis suffered major financial loses. It is really important that people behind the marketing to get non-smokers out focus on more than just the trendy places. The Dakota was already smoke-free. Let's get some people into the small neighborhood joints where businesses are currently in danger. Walk the talk and spend some money. Start a non-smoking dart league. If you're a non-smoker, learn to bowl. If businesses start to go under, the ban will be revised, just as it was in Duluth. If the ban is to stay, non-smokers have to do a lot more than buy a beer once per month at Chino Latino. People have got to get out. Jeremy Wieland Northeast Candidate, 3rd Ward City Council www.jeremywieland.blogs.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Taylor Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 7:00 AM To: Dan; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Mpls Forum' Subject: RE: [Mpls] Smoking ban night 2 Your list also seems to be a bit out of date: Tejas 800 Nicollet Mall That was in the Conservatory which was torn down years ago. One non-smoking local missing from the list is the Bryant Lake Bowl. The claim that virtually all bars in Minneapolis are restaurant/bars needs to be challenged with a visit to NE MPLS. Sure you may be able to get things to eat, snacky crap like chips and peanuts and perhaps a choice of pizzas but I I would not say virtually all bars in Minneapolis are such. Over half of sales coming from food is one good barometer. Tom Taylor Sheridan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dan Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 3:00 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Mpls Forum' Subject: Re: [Mpls] Smoking ban night 2 Liz wrote: just for the record there are no bars on this list Absolutely NOT true. Many are bar/restaurants (virtually all bars in Minneapolis are). Martini Blu springs to mind. When presented facts which undermine your position, your response is to stoop to outright lying? Typical of ban supporters, I suppose. Facts, science and freedom are obstacles easily discarded for the public good. Also note, my list is not comprehensive, and includes only businesses in the Minneapolis city limits. From that limited list only, the following pre-ban smoke-free establishments are/have bars: Arcadia Cafe http://www.acadiacafe.com/ Bobino Cafe Wine Bar http://www.bobino.com/main/main.htm (full bar) Broders http://www.broders.com/pasta-bar/wine-list.html Cavé Vin (wine bar) Chipotle (full bar, surprizingly enough) http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/stories/1999/03/01/story8.html Corner Table http://www.cornertablerestaurant.com/wine.htm (seperate non-smoking bar area) Da Afghan Express (serve alchohol - not sure if it is/has a bar) D'Amico Sons http://www.mplshappyhour.com/bars_detail.php?bar=251 Edina Grill http://www.edinagrill.com/about.htm El Meson (serve drinks - not sure about the bar) http://www.elmeson-mn.com/ Famous Dave's http://www.famousdaves.com/restaura.cfm (full bar) First Course Giorgio (bar lounge) http://www.mplshappyhour.com/bars_detail.php?bar=100 Kafe 421 http://www.kafe421.com/musicevents.htm Lucia's Restaurant Wine Bar Maria's http://www.mariascafe.com/index.htm Martini Blu http://www.martiniblu.com/ Oddfellows http://www.oddfellowsrestaurant.com/ Palomino http://www.palomino.com/index.php?cook=1locations=Minneapolis Pizza Nea http://www.mplshappyhour.com/bars_detail.php?bar=6 Sapor Cafe Bar http://www.mplshappyhour.com/bars_detail.php?bar=180 Soba's http://www.mplshappyhour.com/bars_detail.php?bar=124 Let me also add to the list: Loring Grill, which has a full service bar, http://www.tcdine.com/restaurants/loring_grill_minneapolis.htm, The Craftsman Restaurant Bar http://www.craftsmanrestaurant.com The Longfellow Grill - Full bar (pretty sure was non-smoking, but never visited) Bon Appetit (live music, drinks, no smoking) SE Mpls. Non-smokers have had loads of options for smoke-free venues. Greed has resulted in all for them, none for us, even if it means closing our places down rather than let concenting adults expose themselves to smoke. My retired widower neighbor now drives to Burnsville for breakfast, when he used to go to a local grille. My next pub visit won't be Molly Quinns (sorry! I liked the place, but I like my smokes with my Guiness). It will be the Dubliner. There's no way I'll return to First Avenue as long as the ban is in place. As a club with a cover, they don't allow re-entry. My once favorite night-spot now sucks. Hope all you anti-smokers get out there for techno DJs and punk rock this weekend! I'll be in St. Paul. Dan McGrath Longfellow http://www.subversivepictures.com http://www.smokeoutgary.org REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at
Re: [Mpls] Did Mpls NAACP branch loan $85, 000 for investment in grocery st...
Also see: Ron Edwards comments on Mpls issues forum discussion re: Did Mpls NAACP branch loan $85,000 for investment in grocery stores. Blog Post by Ron Edwards, April 5, 2005 http://educationright.tripod.com/id460.htm In a message dated 4/1/2005 3:03:18 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ...Clearly this is about a small group who cannot get elected to run the Mpls NAACP so they have decided to run the once credible organization into the ground... [Comment by Doug Mann] For the past 6 years the Minneapolis Branch has been run more like a mutual aid society for African-American politicians and businessmen than a civil rights and human rights advocacy organization. The NAACP leadership has been using its influence as representative of an oppressed people as a bargaining chip in back door deals to help their friends get jobs, contracts, etc. The situation here reflects a shift by the National NAACP leadership toward a closer relationship with the Democratic Party in 1995. Kweisi Mfume was appointed President / CEO that year. The NAACP has also oriented itself more and more toward black professionals and their networks of friends and business associates. In Minneapolis, Mfume's administration helped a slate headed by Ricky Campbell, representing a conservative faction within the NAACP branch, win an election of officers in 1999, with considerable help from the Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party and the Links (a club for well-to-do, college-educated African-Americans). The Cambell group represented a fairly small minority of members who regularly attended meetings, worked on committees, etc. The settlement of the NAACP educational adequacy lawsuit in 2000 is a good example of the back door deals mentioned above. The settlement stipulated that the NAACP agreed that the choice is yours program (a limited, one-way city-to-suburb bussing program) and other provisions of the settlement solved the problem of students of color getting an inadequate education. In my opinion, the settlement agreement was not consistent with educational policy statements approved by any NAACP convention that I know about. The basic problem since the 1890's has been the segregation of black students into inferior schools and into low-ability curriculum tracks in racially integrated schools. The NAACP educational settlement also set far lower standards for the Minneapolis School District than Minnesota's Voluntary Desegregation Rule with respect to giving students in racially identifiable schools the right to attend schools that are not racially identifiable, and with respect to accountability measures. For example, the Deseg rule states that the commissioner of education shall ask for, and the district shall provide, in its deseg plan, specific information needed to determine if resources are equitably distributed, including data on teacher qualifications and experience. The Minneapolis School District and the MN Dept. of Education are not in compliance with the Desegregation rule, and you don't hear a peep out of the NAACP leadership about that. The NAACP's contract with the MN Department of Ed to run Parent Information Centers was the NAACP's payoff for betraying its constituency and supporting the status quo. The NAACP leadership, at the branch and national level, also repeatedly took actions in relation to monitoring implementation of the Hollman Consent Decree (the settlement of a housing discrimination lawsuit) that served the interests of the city of Minneapolis (one of the defendants) at the expense of the plaintiff class. See: The Fight Against Urban Cleansing and Gentrification in Minneapolis http://educationright.tripod.com/id41.htm Hollman Achieves http://educationright.tripod.com/id290.htm -Doug Mann, King Field Bureaucratically removed member at large Minneapolis NAACP branch executive committee REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Smoking ban participation
Conditions change. Businesses fail. Happens everyday. Why should public policy be crafted not based on public health but on some twisted idea that every single business must survive intact as is only sans smoking? Businesses that can't sustain themselves without allowing smoking perhaps deserve to fail and be replaced by other businesses. Would a few bars going out of business be the end of something of some huge value compared to the health benefits of the ban? I think not. Now I have had some fond memories around some hole in the wall bars, don't get me wrong. The only one that went out of business that I truly mourned it's passing had more to do with it's fate as a victim of an arson thought to be hate crime(still under investigation) in the city in Michigan where I attended college. The thought of the bar being lit on fire on a back wall while packed with people because someone hates gay people left me said and a little cold. These arguments that we can't loose even one business to the ban seem like the arguments some make about cutting unnecessary spending- think of the lost jobs! Hey, be creative. Change your enterprise to draw different people in the door. If you can't make it. Find a new profession like thousands of people in this country do all the time. David Strand Loring Park --- Jeremy Wieland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, there are businesses that were crushed last week-end. Many of the neighborhood bars in Northeast Minneapolis suffered major financial loses. It is really important that people behind the marketing to get non-smokers out focus on more than just the trendy places. The Dakota was already smoke-free. Let's get some people into the small neighborhood joints where businesses are currently in danger. Walk the talk and spend some money. Start a non-smoking dart league. If you're a non-smoker, learn to bowl. If businesses start to go under, the ban will be revised, just as it was in Duluth. If the ban is to stay, non-smokers have to do a lot more than buy a beer once per month at Chino Latino. People have got to get out. Jeremy Wieland Northeast Candidate, 3rd Ward City Council www.jeremywieland.blogs.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] More endorsements for Lilligren in Ward 6
Minneapolis City Council Vice President Robert Lilligren announces four more endorsements in his campaign for the 6th Ward Council Seat. The four are: Minneapolis Building and Construction Trades Council, comprised of 29 trade unions, the Minneapolis Firefighters Union, Stonewall DFL, the GLBT caucus of the Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party; and the Gay and Lesbian Victory Fund, a non-partisan political organization based in Washington D.C. Because of the unusual circumstance of having two incumbents running together, we looked closely at this race to ensure that Robert has met our criteria of being a qualified and effective public officer holder, says Robin Brand, Victory Fund's Vice President of campaigns and elections, We chose Robert Lilligren because, though a relative newcomer, his track record proves he can best represent and involve the whole community in decision making. It is clear he is a new and welcome force in Minneapolis politics. The Building and Trades endorsement is one of their first of this election cycle. Robert Lilligren has done just an excellent job for his constituents and the City of Minneapolis in his first term, says John Williams, Business Manager of Minneapolis Building and Construction Trades Council, He has tackled tough construction projects like Sears with energy and intelligence. Though we may not always agree on everything, Robert is respectful, hardworking and he puts the interests of the people he represents first. These endorsements follow the announcement that Lilligren was endorsed by the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME) Council 5. AFSCME represents about 800 City of Minneapolis Employees. Contact: Tom Reid Vote Robert Campaign 612-221-7685 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Barb Lickness Whittier Ward 6 Lilligren Supporter Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. -- Margaret Mead REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Smoking ban participation
This is exactly one of the points I made to my city councilperson and the various state legislators I mailed and emailed regarding the ban. My original point was, and still is, this: I suspect 99% of smoking ban proponents will never stoop low enough to patronize 99% of the bars affected by the ban. I'll bet my paycheck that virtually NO ban proponents will ever deign to set foot in Adrians or the Cardinal Bar or any of the working class establishments in NE. The ban is about elitists being able to listen to jazz at their whim without having to shower when they got home. The bars that will struggle to survive.well, that's just tough luck. I believe many smoking ban proponents wanted their trendy jazzy-spots to be smoke free for their own selfish interests, but packaged it as a public health measure. Incredibly disingenous. One of the inherent qualities of the ban was a subtle elitism espoused by its proponents. Smoking is, for the most part, a habit of the lower SES classes. Not only did ban proponents know what was better for people, but in the adoption of the ban an implicit patronization was occuring through the legal protection of these less informed individuals to protect them from themselves. This is a slippery slope that that is bound to occur again.. pushed by a city council emboldened by abdication of personal choice and spine by their constituents. How pathetically sad. Mike Thompson Windom - Original Message - From: Jeremy Wieland [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Mpls Forum' mpls@mnforum.org Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 5:24 PM Subject: [Mpls] Smoking ban participation I've been following the businesses that have been benefiting from the ban. That is good. However, there are businesses that were crushed last week-end. Many of the neighborhood bars in Northeast Minneapolis suffered major financial loses. It is really important that people behind the marketing to get non-smokers out focus on more than just the trendy places. The Dakota was already smoke-free. Let's get some people into the small neighborhood joints where businesses are currently in danger. Walk the talk and spend some money. Start a non-smoking dart league. If you're a non-smoker, learn to bowl. If businesses start to go under, the ban will be revised, just as it was in Duluth. If the ban is to stay, non-smokers have to do a lot more than buy a beer once per month at Chino Latino. People have got to get out. Jeremy Wieland Northeast Candidate, 3rd Ward City Council www.jeremywieland.blogs.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Taylor Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 7:00 AM To: Dan; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Mpls Forum' Subject: RE: [Mpls] Smoking ban night 2 Your list also seems to be a bit out of date: Tejas 800 Nicollet Mall That was in the Conservatory which was torn down years ago. One non-smoking local missing from the list is the Bryant Lake Bowl. The claim that virtually all bars in Minneapolis are restaurant/bars needs to be challenged with a visit to NE MPLS. Sure you may be able to get things to eat, snacky crap like chips and peanuts and perhaps a choice of pizzas but I I would not say virtually all bars in Minneapolis are such. Over half of sales coming from food is one good barometer. Tom Taylor Sheridan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dan Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 3:00 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Mpls Forum' Subject: Re: [Mpls] Smoking ban night 2 Liz wrote: just for the record there are no bars on this list Absolutely NOT true. Many are bar/restaurants (virtually all bars in Minneapolis are). Martini Blu springs to mind. When presented facts which undermine your position, your response is to stoop to outright lying? Typical of ban supporters, I suppose. Facts, science and freedom are obstacles easily discarded for the public good. Also note, my list is not comprehensive, and includes only businesses in the Minneapolis city limits. From that limited list only, the following pre-ban smoke-free establishments are/have bars: Arcadia Cafe http://www.acadiacafe.com/ Bobino Cafe Wine Bar http://www.bobino.com/main/main.htm (full bar) Broders http://www.broders.com/pasta-bar/wine-list.html Cavé Vin (wine bar) Chipotle (full bar, surprizingly enough) http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/stories/1999/03/01/story8.html Corner Table http://www.cornertablerestaurant.com/wine.htm (seperate non-smoking bar area) Da Afghan Express (serve alchohol - not sure if it is/has a bar) D'Amico Sons http://www.mplshappyhour.com/bars_detail.php?bar=251 Edina Grill http://www.edinagrill.com/about.htm El Meson (serve drinks - not sure about the bar) http://www.elmeson-mn.com/ Famous Dave's http://www.famousdaves.com/restaura.cfm (full bar) First Course Giorgio (bar lounge)
Re: [Mpls] Smoking ban participation
Mr. Strand's response below scares the holy hell out of me. Mr. Strand says: Why should public policy be crafted not based on public health but on some twisted idea that every single business must survive intact as is only sans smoking? MT says: Nice try, but totally misses the point. The notion of fighting the ban was based on the idea that not every business must survive sans smoking. Anti-ban proponents understood that the market should decide what establishments live and which die based on the clientele they choose to cater to. Not good enough for ban proponents who bring out the disingenuous public health card. If this is truly a public health issue, why such a half-assed one? I mean, seriously, let's ban the stuff. Loud music at the bars has got to go (severe hearing damage to patrons and workers is a legitimate health issue, right)? Same with butter and deep fried wings and curds and mozzarella and skins as appetizers. While this may sound facetious, it's apt and analogous to the issue of public health. This ain't about public health, folks, it's merely about convenience because a few busy-bodies don't want to wash their hair when they get back from the Fine Line or wherever. Too bad, so sad, that some businesses will just dry up because the David Strands of the world cannot fathom making a decision to stay out of places that he and others find objectionable. I hope the ban proponents contribute to food shelves. The selfishness, narrow-mindedness, and abdication of personal power regarding this issue as evidenced by many posters on this subject is absolutely astounding. Mike Thompson Windom - Original Message - From: David Strand [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Mpls Forum' mpls@mnforum.org Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 6:40 PM Subject: Re: [Mpls] Smoking ban participation Conditions change. Businesses fail. Happens everyday. Businesses that can't sustain themselves without allowing smoking perhaps deserve to fail and be replaced by other businesses. Would a few bars going out of business be the end of something of some huge value compared to the health benefits of the ban? I think not. Now I have had some fond memories around some hole in the wall bars, don't get me wrong. The only one that went out of business that I truly mourned it's passing had more to do with it's fate as a victim of an arson thought to be hate crime(still under investigation) in the city in Michigan where I attended college. The thought of the bar being lit on fire on a back wall while packed with people because someone hates gay people left me said and a little cold. These arguments that we can't loose even one business to the ban seem like the arguments some make about cutting unnecessary spending- think of the lost jobs! Hey, be creative. Change your enterprise to draw different people in the door. If you can't make it. Find a new profession like thousands of people in this country do all the time. David Strand Loring Park --- Jeremy Wieland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, there are businesses that were crushed last week-end. Many of the neighborhood bars in Northeast Minneapolis suffered major financial loses. It is really important that people behind the marketing to get non-smokers out focus on more than just the trendy places. The Dakota was already smoke-free. Let's get some people into the small neighborhood joints where businesses are currently in danger. Walk the talk and spend some money. Start a non-smoking dart league. If you're a non-smoker, learn to bowl. If businesses start to go under, the ban will be revised, just as it was in Duluth. If the ban is to stay, non-smokers have to do a lot more than buy a beer once per month at Chino Latino. People have got to get out. Jeremy Wieland Northeast Candidate, 3rd Ward City Council www.jeremywieland.blogs.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see:
Re: [Mpls] Park Board Meeting, 5:00pm on Wednesday, April 6
Chris Johnson wrote: * Acceptance of low bid for $65,450 worth of indoor artificial turf. (To be used where?) Could it be the rumored astroturf for the Nicollet Island multi-purpose athletic facility? Barry Clegg wrote on March 23: The Park Board would be giving up some of the look and feel of the current Park - it would lose some open space and gain an athletic field with astroturf (I'm not making that up - Commissioner Dziedzic told me yesterday it would be astroturf). Tsk! Tsk! athletic fieldson an open space with a few bleachers and a concession stand? Very funny. THIS is what DeLaSalle really wants: http://www.alumni.umn.edu/specialannouncement Madeline Douglass Kingfield REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Smoking ban participation
At 07:40 PM 4/6/2005, Michael Thompson wrote: This is exactly one of the points I made to my city councilperson and the various state legislators I mailed and emailed regarding the ban. My original point was, and still is, this: I suspect 99% of smoking ban proponents will never stoop low enough to patronize 99% of the bars affected by the ban. I'll bet my paycheck that virtually NO ban proponents will ever deign to set foot in Adrians or the Cardinal Bar or any of the working class establishments in NE. The ban is about elitists being able to listen to jazz at their whim without having to shower when they got home. The bars that will struggle to survive.well, that's just tough luck. I believe many smoking ban proponents wanted their trendy jazzy-spots to be smoke free for their own selfish interests, but packaged it as a public health measure. Incredibly disingenous. One of the inherent qualities of the ban was a subtle elitism espoused by its proponents. Smoking is, for the most part, a habit of the lower SES classes. Not only did ban proponents know what was better for people, but in the adoption of the ban an implicit patronization was occuring through the legal protection of these less informed individuals to protect them from themselves. I'm not quite as cynical as Mr. Thompson, but almost. The ban was unreasonable, and it will further alienate the young and working class (as I wrote on this list in May of last year) from what remains of the liberal establishment. I certainly won't be voting against anyone based solely on the smoking ban - there are more important issues - but others may. Watch out, DFLers. Mike Jensvold Ward 10 REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Smoking ban participation
The probelm here is this idea of elitists venturing into all the working class establishments to try to keep them afloat just isn't going to happen. There have been reports of anti-smokers popping in to the odd neighborhood bar here and there to gloat, order water and fail to tip the staff, but that novelty will quickly wear off. The tofu-vegan, wine sipping trendy rich aren't going to learn to bowl and join a dart league! The idea is laughable. Even if they were to undergo this astonishing transformation, and started going to the working class joints like the Cardinal, next they'd have to ban fried food, so they could force bar owners to serve raw soup and sprouts and artichoke hearts with wine sauce. Ultimately, this smoking ban is going to start costing everyone more money. As tax revenues from bars dry up, somebody's going to have to close the gap. Money us poor working stiffs used to fill the city's coffers with will have to be made up by everyone. Get ready for your taxes to go up again. And Jeremy, if you really want to help the business owners in your ward, you'll start fighting this smoking ban, instead of trying to prop it up for a bit longer. It will eventually collapse, but not until irreversable harm has been done to many people's livlihoods. Go into the bars around NE, and ask the owners what your position should be! Dan McGrath Longfellow http://www.subversivepictures.com http://www.smokeoutgary.org - Original Message - From: Jeremy Wieland [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Mpls Forum' mpls@mnforum.org Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 5:24 PM Subject: [Mpls] Smoking ban participation I've been following the businesses that have been benefiting from the ban. That is good. However, there are businesses that were crushed last week-end. Many of the neighborhood bars in Northeast Minneapolis suffered major financial loses. It is really important that people behind the marketing to get non-smokers out focus on more than just the trendy places. The Dakota was already smoke-free. Let's get some people into the small neighborhood joints where businesses are currently in danger. Walk the talk and spend some money. Start a non-smoking dart league. If you're a non-smoker, learn to bowl. If businesses start to go under, the ban will be revised, just as it was in Duluth. If the ban is to stay, non-smokers have to do a lot more than buy a beer once per month at Chino Latino. People have got to get out. Jeremy Wieland Northeast Candidate, 3rd Ward City Council www.jeremywieland.blogs.com REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] City Hall Flag
Gary Hoover wrote: I find the lowering of flags to be a part of a manipulative and divisive public relations campaign on the part of a very small neo-conservative, corporatist wing of the Republican Party. Our government leaders should publicly apologize for this action. It was and is a mistake, at the very least. MN: But I thought this was a DFL town. Where are the evil Republicans lurking? Did they sneak in and lower the flag? What a load. Let's have a flag ban. After all,it's a symbol of imperialist oppression,no? Mike Nelson Central,WAY Central REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Bikes - robberies, auctions
Some bicyclists have recently been robbed on the Cedar Lake Trail http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/police/crimealert/021758.asp#TopOfPage The first bicycle auction of the year by Minneapolis Police is on April 14th: http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/police/news/20050331auction.asp Madeline Douglass Kingfield REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Economic Hallucinations
While the loss of anyone's livelihood as a result of the ban is tragic, let's end the hallucination that the consumption of alcohol and cigarettes can be the basis of a healthy economy. Or gambling, that's an economic hallucination as well. Mike Jensvold Ward 10 REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Flags
Oops, posted my last message before I had seen the warning. Sorry. I do have a Minneapolis specific question though. It's about the flags that have sprouted everywhere since mindless flag waving became so popular a couple years ago. Why is it that the flags on one side of all our city busses, and some fire trucks, are displayed backwards? I've called the MTC, as well as the Fire Dept. and no one can tell me who the person in charge of pasting the things on vehicles is. This is more irritating to me than the issue of when to lower it. It shows a lack of respect. If you care enough to display it, one would think you would do it properly. Mike Nelson Pretty much Central REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] 'Citizen Participation' still a myth; 'Activist Participation' not...
I believe Michael Atherton's problem with NRP stems from his inability to convince the folks in his neighborhood that he is smarter than they, and thus should let him decide how the program should be run. I can think of one or two others who had the same opinion of NRP after not being given their just due as the smarter people who need to be listened to. Unfortunately NRP does seem to empower some of these unwashed of mind to think they are just as smart as the elite and quite able to decide things for themselves. If the people would only listen more then Michael and others might be more in favor of it. I wonder if Michael feels any cognitive dissonance with some of his statements which are sometimes adjoining each other. In one Michael feels that the City Council is wrong headed and unqualified to make decisions about smoking bans, and in the very next one states that the people can't be trusted to make decisions so we should leave decisions to the elected public officials. Which is it to be? Should we let these people exclusively make decisions for us or not? I happen to agree with Michael about the ban. It is an attempt at social engineering to please a small but powerful group of people who want only there way to prevail without any real concern for public health or property rights. But I also think that what ever number of residents gather to make decisions about NRP and their neighborhood they are certainly better able (and better qualified) to make such decisions than the thirteen Council Members and the Mayor. Heck most Council Members started out involved with NRP and their neighborhoods. Funny, but most were not even the bright ones, or the driving forces, in that process. Now my opinion on NRP could only be a theory, except for the very real experience of the last few years. NRP has paid huge dividends to Minneapolis. Exactly which wise City Council real estate deal has paid as well? Target downtown? Saks? The Brighton investments? Even Sears? NRP dollars were the seed for many, many, development projects all over Minneapolis. The Mercado at Bloomington and Lake, the millions of investment on Franklin are only two examples. How about the Whittier School, early learning centers in many neighborhoods, the renovated parks, the Nicolett renovation, and the hundreds of houses that were refurbished and the hundreds of homes now owned that were made possible through grants and loans from neighborhoods NRP funds? History has shown the NRP process was not perfect, but that same history has shown that NRP is still the best investment of dollars that Minneapolis may have ever made. Even if the neighborhood people were so dumb that they did not listen to those like Michael who were smarter than themselves. Heck, it was such a good idea that Mayor RT Rybak promised us all that he would make sure it was fully funded in order to get us to vote for him in the last election. Some other Council Members made the same promises to get elected. Either NRP is a great idea ,or those politicians can't be trusted to make a good decision on it. So is Michael saying that we should trust their word that NRP is great and should be fully funded? I just can not figure out why a smart fellow like Michael could not have organized a few other smart people, like himself, and took over his neighborhood's meetings. Meetings that he claims were so badly attended. It seems those FEW dumb neighborhood residents had no trouble running the NRP process. Pretty sneaky of them, don't you think? But it certainly shows the real problem with NRP. Dumb neighborhood residents are so Empowered that they ban together and don't listen to their superiors about how to spend neighborhood money. They even get empowered enough to think they know better than smart people what their neighborhood really needs. It sounds like the complaint of a group of social service agencies when we organized to take over NRP in old Phillips, they complained that we had cheated because, They stacked the neighborhood meetings with residents. It sounds like Michael Atherton's real complaint is that the dumb citizens are participating too much! Trying to keep up with this anti smoking ban, pro NRP ban, dumb Council, smart Council, arguments is starting to make my old head spin. So, I am going to go turn on the history channel and go to sleep. I already know how the show ends anyway. Jim Graham, sittin on the porch steps in Ventura Village There is no finer investment for any community than putting milk into babies and revolution into minds. REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external
Re: [Mpls] Flags
On Apr 6, 2005, at 9:01 PM, Mike Nelson wrote: Why is it that the flags on one side of all our city busses, and some fire trucks, are displayed backwards? I've called the MTC, as well as the Fire Dept. and no one can tell me who the person in charge of pasting the things on vehicles is. This is more irritating to me than the issue of when to lower it. It shows a lack of respect. If you care enough to display it, one would think you would do it properly. From a Google search (for backward flag) - I would assume the backward flags you are seeing are for the same reason: QUESTION: Patches on the shoulders of U.S. soldiers in Iraq are arranged the wrong way. The blue and stars should be on the left and not the right of the patch. Why is that? ANSWER: The backward appearance of the U.S. flag on a serviceman's sleeve is not a mistake. The flag patch worn on the right shoulder of a U.S. soldier's uniform is deliberately reversed. Army regulations call for the flag to be worn so that to observers, it looks as if the flag is flying against a breeze. What does a stiff wind have to do with this custom? According to an article in military newspaper, Stars and Stripes, the rule is a nod to the U.S. Army's early history. Mounted cavalry and infantry units would always designate one soldier as standard bearer, to carry the flag into the fight. As the standard bearer charged, his rapid forward momentum would cause the flag to stream back. And since the flag is mounted with the canton closest to the pole, that section would always be forward. So if a soldier is charging into the battle, the flag would give the appearance of forward motion. For the right shoulder, the flag only appears backward. David Gadberry Regina REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Smoking ban participation
What utter nonsense this is. I don't believe for a minute that any bar struggling to survive is in trouble because their drinkers can't smoke. And if it's true for even one, then something was seriously wrong with the operation to begin with. Name-calling as a descriptor for public health advocates is scabrous. Talk about wearing your so-called working class status on your inflated chest. The contempt in which people hold other people is astounding, especially when heaping stereotyping generalizations on their targets' motives and whining as if a smoking ban was enacted to put you in your place. I call that narcissistic. This is about me, and no one else, and all you hippie refugees drinking wine and eating vegetables are out to get me. Truth. No one is worth that sort of effort, not even the whiners. Until they became dens of poisonous gases, some bars were delightful places to grab a beer and schmooze, and I'll do it again. But not in every damn bar that exists because it might not survive without smoking. We all have out watering holes, and we'll continue to patronize them, smoking or not. Every place I've been to in St. Paul where smoking was one allowed has been packed to the gills for the last week. They haven't lost a customer. Now, this I will grant you: smoking begets drinking which begets more smoking which begets more drinking. Alcohol is the commodity of massive profit margins and anyone who does nothing but peddle more and more alcohol because their customers smoke may have to find a new job. If alcohol sales are slightly depressed by this ban, I cannot get exercised about it. Neither of those addictions helps anyoneexcept the drug peddler, who may or may not be addicted to both as well. Of course, a third addiction lurks in most of those places as well: pull tabs. I would wager that the more alcohol is sold, the more pull tabs are bought and wasted. Add up the costs those addictions to society impose on the rest of us and not only will costs and taxes not go up but their reduced use, we will witness fewer drunk drivers and chemical-related assaults (about 98% of assaults are driven by drug use - including the drug of choice for most peoplealcohol), fewer public safety costs, health care costs, court costs, family budget-busting, and on and on. The disingenuous name-calling and elitism spouted by sour grapes will do nothing to change public policy. Thank the god of your choice. Andy Driscoll Saint Paul -- From: Dan [EMAIL PROTECTED] The probelm here is this idea of elitists venturing into all the working class establishments to try to keep them afloat just isn't going to happen. There have been reports of anti-smokers popping in to the odd neighborhood bar here and there to gloat, order water and fail to tip the staff, but that novelty will quickly wear off. The tofu-vegan, wine sipping trendy rich aren't going to learn to bowl and join a dart league! The idea is laughable. Even if they were to undergo this astonishing transformation, and started going to the working class joints like the Cardinal, next they'd have to ban fried food, so they could force bar owners to serve raw soup and sprouts and artichoke hearts with wine sauce. Ultimately, this smoking ban is going to start costing everyone more money. As tax revenues from bars dry up, somebody's going to have to close the gap. Money us poor working stiffs used to fill the city's coffers with will have to be made up by everyone. Get ready for your taxes to go up again. And Jeremy, if you really want to help the business owners in your ward, you'll start fighting this smoking ban, instead of trying to prop it up for a bit longer. It will eventually collapse, but not until irreversable harm has been done to many people's livlihoods. Go into the bars around NE, and ask the owners what your position should be! Dan McGrath Longfellow http://www.subversivepictures.com http://www.smokeoutgary.org - Original Message - From: Jeremy Wieland [EMAIL PROTECTED] I've been following the businesses that have been benefiting from the ban. That is good. However, there are businesses that were crushed last week-end. Many of the neighborhood bars in Northeast Minneapolis suffered major financial loses. It is really important that people behind the marketing to get non-smokers out focus on more than just the trendy places. The Dakota was already smoke-free. Let's get some people into the small neighborhood joints where businesses are currently in danger. Walk the talk and spend some money. Start a non-smoking dart league. If you're a non-smoker, learn to bowl. If businesses start to go under, the ban will be revised, just as it was in Duluth. If the ban is to stay, non-smokers have to do a lot more than buy a beer once per month at Chino Latino. People have got to get out. Jeremy Wieland Northeast Candidate, 3rd Ward City Council www.jeremywieland.blogs.com REMINDERS: 1. Be
Re: [Mpls] Flags
about the flags that have sprouted everywhere since mindless flag waving became so popular a couple years ago. Provided you don't use the flag to hype used cars or crooked politicians there's nothing mindless about flying the flag. Why is it that the flags on one side of all our city busses, and some fire trucks, are displayed backwards? Because the companies that make the decals usually only make one version and don't make a reversed version. Thusly the flag decals on one side face the opposite way the ones on the other side do. I've called the MTC, as well as the Fire Dept. and no one can tell me who the person in charge of pasting the things on vehicles is. Metro Transit has been installing the decals along with the union label decals for years. I'm not sure who puts fire departments decals on. The Postal Service where i work and Amtrak have been using the red, white, and blue stripe on each side of their trucks and trains for years. In my opinion this was quite tasteful and reflected the cooperation we had between the Postal Service and Amtrak before the Bush administration took most of the mail off the rails. Over the years several Postal Service drivers have also put flag decals on their trucks, and after the 9/11 attack I mounted a small flag on my truck. As that truck stays inside the Minneapolis Post Office except when we occasionally creep up the streets to the garage to fuel it the flag stays on pretty well. This is more irritating to me than the issue of when to lower it. It shows a lack of respect. If you care enough to display it, one would think you would do it properly. It is acceptable to fly a flag at night provided it is lighted, and all our parking areas are lighted as are the trucks when they're in motion. from the heights of Hawthorne, Dyna Sluyter REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Smoking ban participation
I assume you smoke since the writing seems to be out of anger - could it be that you are addicted and don't want to accept the health facts of second hand smoke? True I can't stand smelling like a cigarette butt when I leave a bar, but I also didn't run home to have a washdown. But what WOULD happen is that my lungs would kind of seize up when I would go into such places. I did my best to avoid them - but when meeting a friend or wanting to see a particular band I would force myself - wishing I didn't have to physically feel so horrible by the time I left. The smoke infringed on my HEALTH. Okay - there are ways to deal with the other health issues you bring up: music is too loud? answer - wear ear plugs. Although personally I believe how loud some are is considered a health risk. greasy food in the place? answer - don't eat it. I think what keeps getting lost here is the fact that people still have the right to smoke. Personally, I think Minneapolis should go all the way and legalize all narcotics and illicit drugs. Someone snorting coke at the next table wouldn't affect me nearly as much as a smoker. I think the city council should take up this civil liberties cause. Shouldn't all addictions be allowed as long as they don't infringe on others? I don't feel selfish or narrow-minded about this. Liz Greenbaum Longfellow Michael Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The selfishness, narrow-mindedness, and abdication of personal power regarding this issue as evidenced by many posters on this subject is absolutely astounding. -- Elizabeth Greenbaum Executive Director ArtiCulture www.articulture.org 612.729.5151 __ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Park Board Meeting, 5:00pm on Wednesday, April 6
On 4/6/05 8:13 PM, md [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Johnson wrote: * Acceptance of low bid for $65,450 worth of indoor artificial turf. (To be used where?) Could it be the rumored astroturf for the Nicollet Island multi-purpose athletic facility? Barry Clegg wrote on March 23: The Park Board would be giving up some of the look and feel of the current Park - it would lose some open space and gain an athletic field with astroturf (I'm not making that up - Commissioner Dziedzic told me yesterday it would be astroturf). Tsk! Tsk! athletic fieldson an open space with a few bleachers and a concession stand? Very funny. THIS is what DeLaSalle really wants: http://www.alumni.umn.edu/specialannouncement I'm not keen on the De La Salle football field either, but can we maintain just a little bit of perspective, please? The issue is contentious enough without resorting to foolishness like this. What De La Salle wants is a high school football field. Many of us live near one. Go take a look at it. That should give you some idea of what's being proposed. Personally, I think since the football teams play half their games at home and half on the road, De La Salle should just strike a deal with Edison High School to share their field and have a football game scheduled there every Friday night of the season. Instead of spending a lot of money constructing a new field, spend a little to further upgrade an existing one that's already got pretty good facilities. I'm pretty sure Edison's field one of the closest ones geographically to De La Salle and a good chunk of De La Salle's students either come from Northeast now or come from families that grew up in Northeast, so none of the parents or boosters should have any problem at all finding it. And the local bars and restaurants along Central Ave and in the surrounding neighborhoods would probably love it! Mark Snyder Windom Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] City Hall flag - send your checks
At 04:06 PM 4/6/2005, Derek Burrows Reise wrote: Thanks Terrell for suggesting to send your checks to those fighting to maintain the separation of church and state--and keep personal theology out of public policy. The one thing I would say is that instead of sending your checks to NARAL Pro-Choice America in Washington, DC, send them directly to the Minnesota affiliate (www.prochoiceminnesota.org) which will use 100% of proceeds for work in Minnesota. NARAL Pro-Choice MINNESOTA is actually holding an event at (smoke-free) Jitters Bar Cafe on Monday, April 11th, 6-8pm. It's the annual Beer, Wine, and Chocolate Tasting. Live music will be featured. Find out more and RSVP at www.prochoiceminnesota.org. I'd suggest sending that check to Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. There really needs to be a Minnesota local chapter: http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=fld_chapters_formation Eva Young Near North Minneapolis [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lloydletta.blogspot.com You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is based on freedom, and that means freedom for everyone - not just you! You may leave the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion, etc., but the world is full of idiots, and probably always will be. --Article II of the Bill of Non-Rights. REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Park Board Meeting, 5:00pm on Wednesday, April 6
The turf is to be used to make an indoor soccer field at Parade Stadium. The interesting part ( not mentioned to those who don't go to the meetings and read the supplemental reports provided) is that it is to be paid for from the enterprise capital funds that are earmarked for new income generation. No commissioners spoke up at all and this passed through on a voice vote. Was this not the slush fund of $500,000 that couldn't even get a reading in committee at the last meeting? How can they tap into something that technically doesn't exist??? Another fun tidbit. The MPRB approved a new light pole for the parkways around the Grand Rounds. Because the city's public works department handles these they had a few caveats to what could be picked. The electrical costs of $6000 per pole will be paid for by the city ( they are replacing 100 per year for about 2300 lights total eventually) and the city gave the park board a budget of $1200 per pole for the actual fixture. They picked a pole that costs $1800. The MPRB will pay the difference from their budget. NOT ON SINGLE COMMISSIONER ASKED WHY THEY COULDN'T FIND AN ACCEPTABLE $1200 DOLLAR FIXTURE THUS COSTING THE MPRB NOTHING. Maybe one doesn't exist that meets specs but the question still should have been asked. Liz Wielinski Columbia Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] City Hall flag
It's for our lost innocence. -David Shove Roseville On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, Steve Brandt wrote: I forget. Are City Hall flags at half-staff today for Prince Ranier of Monaco or Saul Bellow? Or was there another big claim settled by the Council? Steve Brandt Kingfield Always at half staff REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
