[Mpls] But it's clear that the days of risk taking and progressive politics are gone.
The following is an article from the City Pages following the election of Don Samuels to the city council and the defeat of an antiwar resolution by the city council. The article is dated February of 2003. How many feel this analysis is spot on and how many feel it is off base? What can we do to empower those attempting to enact progressive policies at city hall in the upcoming elections and after? David Strand Loring Park http://citypages.com/databank/24/1158/article11051.asp A year ago city hall was infiltrated by a majority of first-time office holders, a regime that introduced not only Rybak and Johnson Lee, but six other new council members--and the promise of sweeping reform. Yet aside from some victories for Rybak, the rest have encountered an old guard that is still very much on its game. Council president Paul Ostrow and Barb Johnson and Sandy Colvin Roy seem to be carrying a torch for the way things used to be. Despite public distaste for what was perceived to be self-interested leadership at city hall--Cherryhomes, former mayor Sharon Sayles Belton--and the felony convictions of Biernat and former Eighth Ward council member Brian Herron, there's more than a hint that old alliances are alive and well. The other council vets, onetime outsiders Lisa Goodman and Barret Lane, have joined the traditional voting bloc. Rybak has mostly lined up with them, leaving the other less experienced ward leaders to fend for themselves. This was evident recently, when Paul Zerby tried to introduce an antiwar resolution in a committee meeting. More than just a plea for peace, Zerby's resolution (co-authored with Dean Zimmermann) laid out the detrimental financial impact a war with Iraq would have on the city's finances. The resolution was returned to author, a rare move that essentially killed the idea. Two days later Zerby brought up the resolution again before the Committee of the Whole--a dress rehearsal for the next day's council meeting--this time adding fellow council newcomers Robert Lilligren, Gary Schiff, and Johnson Lee. (The two other first-year representatives, Dan Niziolek and Scott Benson, did not sign on.) Ostrow immediately spoke against the resolution, arguing that it was not germane to the business of the council, and that he intended, as council president, to rule it out of order at the next day's meeting, thereby killing any discussion. (Ostrow followed through on his promise.) Then he, Lane, and Goodman left the meeting, without even participating in the committee's debate. The power play was surprising, given that the city council can spend more than two hours debating far more trivial matters, such as, say, zoning issues. Several cities across the United States, including Philadelphia and Chicago, have passed similar antiwar statements. That three council members did not even discuss an item signed by five of their colleagues was shocking. But the reaction went beyond personal feelings regarding war and peace. Most council members opposed to the resolution, and Mayor Rybak, have expressed antiwar sentiment outside of city hall. The utter disregard for debate has less to do with council protocol than with political paranoia. It's no secret that Minneapolis is concerned with proving its mettle to a new state legislature dominated by budget-cutting Republicans. Most council members have bent over backward trying to curry favor at the capitol in hopes that state lawmakers won't pull funding for various programs that the city relies on. The city does not want to stir any partisan waters right now. And there's a profound fear of the federal government among city leaders as well. The investigations of Biernat and Herron haunt city hall to this day. The prospect of facing a federal mediator from the U.S. Department of Justice to quell bad feelings between the Minneapolis Police Department and minority communities has met with unease. And the status quo successfully fought against adding subpoena power to the restructured Civilian Review Authority, the citizen board that handles complaints against the city's cops, for fear that all city workers would be vulnerable to federal subpoenas. At the moment, few city officials want to malign Bush Administration policies or antagonize U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft. Concern over the city's financial troubles has divided the council as well. Though a five-year plan to cut fat from the city's future budgets, heartily endorsed by Rybak, was approved by the council two weeks ago, debate again fell along old-guard/new-guard lines. Zimmermann and Schiff questioned the plan for burdening the poor--and increasing police--in their wards. Lane struck back by accusing them of engaging in class warfare to drive out the city's richest people. It's not that dissent is not welcome on the city council. And it's not that the council isn't moving together on some very tough issues. On January 31, for instance, the council earmarked $10 million of
[Mpls] Lloydletta's Nooz Gets Plug from Politics in MN for Identifying Stop Scott Blog/Push Polling by Lilligren?
http://lloydletta.blogspot.com/2005/10/lloydlettas-nooz-gets-plug-from.html Lloydletta's Nooz Gets Plug from Politics in Minnesota Your Democratic publisher is a big fan of Air America's concept. Locally, Janet Robert and former Congressman Bill Luther have done a great job of building the local Air America station (950 AM) -- sometimes in spite of the talent and personnel issues they have encountered, and many believe Robert has created. One personnel issue they haven't taken on is as much of a personality issue as it is anything else. Former WCCO substitute host Wendy Wilde found herself in a lucky spot when Air America first launched and comedian Jeff Gerbino quit after two or three days of working for Robert. But now Wilde is in a different sort of spot. Kudos go to the local blog Lloydetta [sic], run by long-time political activist Eva Young, who got Wilde to confess that she started one of these famous attack Web sites written anonymously against Minneapolis City Council candidate Scott Persons. http://lloydletta.blogspot.com/2005/10/wendy-wilde-explains-stop-scott.html I also covered the dispute between Janet Robert and Nick Coleman. The question is whether the infamous No Guns, Gays or Abortion memo distributed by Robert to station staff was designed to help 6th District Candidate Elwyn Tinklenberg. http://lloydletta.blogspot.com/2005/08/is-air-america-gag-rule-to-help.html Comments on 5th Ward Race: http://lloydletta.blogspot.com/2005/10/public-access-tv-ku-klux-klan-is.html Margaret Martin (David Strom's wife) discusses the 5th Ward Race: http://www.ourhouseblog.com/?p=193 Is the Robert Lilligren Campaign doing Push Polling: http://lloydletta.blogspot.com/2005/10/is-robert-lilligren-campaign-doing.html Saturday, October 15, 2005 Is the Robert Lilligren Campaign Doing Push Polling? **Lloydletta's Nooz Exclusive** Minneapolis 6th Ward Incumbents Robert Lilligren and Dean Zimmerman were thrown together by redistricting. It's a tight race. A friend of mine who lives in the 6th ward told me about a strange call she got. The call came from Voter Registration Survey, and wanted to ask her some questions. She questioned the caller, and eventually the caller - a woman - admitted to being from the Robert Lilligren campaign. My friend didn't know to let the caller ask all the questions. I called the Dean Zimmerman campaign - and they have gotten one other call that told them about something like this. I left a message with the Lilligren campaign for comment. Developing. . . * Here's a good place to catch up on the local blogs quickly: MNSpeak Blog news Aggregator: http://www.mnspeak.com/mnspeak/aggregator/index-chron.cfm Some blog search engines: http://blogsearch.google.com http://www.technorati.com Eva Young Near North Minneapolis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lloydletta's Nooz http://lloydletta.blogspot.com Dump Michele Bachmann http://dumpbachmann.blogspot.com They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759, US author, diplomat, inventor, physicist, politician, printer (1706 - 1790) http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/1381.html REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Lloydletta's Nooz Gets Plug from Politics in MN for Identifying Stop Scott Blog/Push Polling by Lilligren?
Nothing nefarious going on here Eva. I don't know why you would say the call was strange. There are no strange questions being asked. Pretty run of the mill for a political campaign in my mind. Certainly as long as you have mingled in politics you can't think polling voters is a new or strange phenomenon. The woman doing the polling is not from the Lilligren campaign as you quoted, she was hired by the campaign. There is quite a difference in those meanings. Robert is mailing literature to the voters, doorknocking the voters, appearing at events and celebrations voters are hosting and yes, educating them to get registered, showing them where to vote and polling them through an independent source to find out who they may be supporting and what their issues are. Robert wants to convince the voters of the 6th ward that he is passionate about his desire to represent them, that he is working hard to get their vote and through his accomplishments as a freshman council member that he is the best choice to represent the people of the 6th ward. Barb Lickness Whittier Ward 6 Passionate supporter of Robert Lilligren Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. -- Margaret Mead REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
re:[Mpls] Today's city council budget presentations: CPED, NRP, Mpls public library
Cheryl Luger notes that during her presentation to the city council Director Kit Hadley mentions the following... In what looks like a pretty good apples to apples comparison, The libraries situation vis a vis the city and parks certified tax levy and LGA show from 2003 to 2008 : Librrary board experiencing a decrease of l.5% City of Mpls shows an increase of 13.79% Park Board show an increase of 9.56% From 1994 to 2008 (Certified tax levy, LGA, HACA) Library board shows an increase of only 41.62% compared to the city incrase of 77.37% and ther Park boards increase of 75.23%. If the Parks are showing an increase of 9. 56% and 75.23 % why are they always cutting programs. Inflation certainly isn't running at 75.23 % . What happened Liz Wielinski Columbia Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Re: What's Wrong with Minneapolis - PIM
As the author of the resolution in question I would like to respond to several factual errors that are contained in this article. First the claim that Minneapolis charges $500 for residential permits, I have seen this claim and am not sure where it came from, the minimum fee for an electrical permit in the city of Minneapolis is $60. The claim that the department is losing $437,000 per year is completely false, this claim is based on a study that placed 48% of the overhead costs for a department with 63 inspectors on the backs of 10 electrical inspectors. Also the claim that the electricians union authored the resolution is completely untrue, I personally wrote the resolution on the floor of the meeting and had several non-electrician non-union people help me do so. While I am a member of the electricians union, I acted without the knowledge or consent of my union. My resolution make absolutely no mention of any city council member and does not condemn anyone as can be seen by the text of the resolution which is probably the only part of this that is factually correct. Finally the assertion that the city council is controlled by the DFL State Central Committee which is controlled by labor union is so misinformed that it is laughable, if that were true none of this would have happened. I would also like to point out that I posted on this issue several weeks ago and I reiterate that this is a public safety issue. Dan McConnell Longfellow the city charges $500 for residential permits, which works out to be more than 600% higher than the state fee of $82. A smart move for the city because despite the high fees, the city is still losing money on the program – about $437,000 in 2004 alone. Enter the Minneapolis electricians’ union. The group brought the matter to the DFL State Central Committee and got the group to pass a resolution condemning the four Minneapolis City Council members who voted to use the state electricians. The resolution read, Be it resolved that the central committee of the MN DFL strongly urges the DFL members of the Minneapolis City Council to adhere to the principles of the DFL platform by upholding the rights of city employees to bargain collectively without threat of reprisal. The four city council members wrote a letter to DFL State Party Chair Brian Melendez which said, in part, The City Council’s action was the right action for our taxpayers, for our consumers and for our citizens. The efficient and effective delivery of services must also be a value of our DFL party. [We] hope and trust that future discussions of the State Central Committee will be more informed and show a greater respect for our policy decisions. Signing the letter were council members Scott Benson (Ward 11), Lisa Goodman (Ward 7), Paul Ostrow (Ward 1) and Don Samuels (Ward 3). The Minneapolis electricians filed for and were granted an injunction to prevent the city from turning matters electric to the state. Just so I understand this correctly...the city council is not running the city..? The DFL State Central Committee, controlled by the labor unions, is controlling the city council board members? Dorie Gallagher/Nokomis REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] fwd: People for Independent Parks press release
I received this from the People for Independent Parks group. I am a member. This seems like pretty strong language to me, but I am glad the false, personal and inappropriate attacks by the reform group are being challenged. Nikki Carlson, Linden Hills PEOPLE FOR INDEPENDENT PARKS Parks are for People! For Immediate Release Contact: Julie Idelkope 612-805-5493 Barb Johnson October 15, 2005 Minneapolis Citizens for Park Reform Dupes Public; Its Major Contributor Planned to Build Townhomes on Park Land: Are They Watchdogs or Lapdogs? On Friday, October 14th, Minneapolis Citizens for Park Board Reform (Park Reform) issued a statement disagreeing with the process the Park Board used to acquire its new headquarters on the Mississippi River. In a startling revelation Park Reform claimed that a citizen offered to donate his building and property for the Park Board headquarters. In a major omission, Park Reform didn't disclose that this altruistic individual did not offer to give the Park Board anything; rather he wanted to swap his land for parkland that he desired to develop. His first plan was to build a personal residence on Park Board land adjacent to his. Another and related plan was to build a luxury townhouse development on Lake of the Isles Park Board land! Yes, it wasn't a donation; it was a swap. And quite a swap at that! This same individual who wanted to donate his land and building is the same individual who has provided nearly 50% of Park Reform's budget in the form of a $5,000 cash contribution just before the Primary election http://www16.co.hennepin.mn.us/cfrs/welcome.do . (Click Political Committee/Fund, and go to Minneapolis Citizens for Park Board Reform) and Park Reform also didn't bother to disclose this fact in its email. The individual who gave the $5,000 to Park Reform is William E. Weisman. Weisman owned land on Lake Street adjacent to the Calhoun Beach Club. Mr. Weisman wanted to obtain the land owned by the Park Board located next to his property to build a personal residence. Mr. Weisman also suggested a swap of his land for Park Board land on the south side of Lake of the Isles where the new dog park is located. Weisman thought luxury townhomes would be a better use of public property than the public open space. Apparently, Minneapolis Citizens for Park Reform likes his thinking. Park Reform claims there was no public discussion of the Weisman Plan. In fact, there was a neighborhood meeting on the concept and it was soundly rejected. Park Reform claims to oppose back-room deals and claims to be committed to transparency, openness, accountability and stewardship. Having a major funder with a major conflict of interest smacks of a closed, back-room arrangement, especially when nearly half of Park Reform's funding comes from one person. When that conflict of interest goes against the public interest then the arrangement is even more insidious. And when a group masquerades as a watchdog when it actually appears to be the lapdog of a would-be developer, serious questions of credibility are raised. Trading our dog park for private townhomes is not being a good steward. They were very deceitful to suggest that the Park Board could have gotten a better, cheaper headquarters through the false largesse of their major funder as they did in their email today. Park Reform has a continuous history of omitting the salient points whenever they shout out their slogans. In this case they omit the fact that Weisman's offer was not a donation at all. Earlier they claimed that the Park Superintendent had a $500,000 slush fund; in fact there is no such fund and there never was such a slush fund. They attack the Ft. Snelling fields as not making money, not mentioning that parks are not supposed to make money. They attack the fiscal decisions of the same Board of Commissioners that has brought the concessions at the lakes out of the red and into profitability. They must think that no one is watching or reading. Minneapolis Citizens for Park Board Reform's tactics define duplicity. They say they oppose privatizing park land and yet their major contributor solicited park staff with his plan to develop luxury townhouses on Lake of the Isles land. Is this duplicity the standard of truth we can expect from that group's slate of reform-minded candidates as well? Minneapolis Citizens for Park Board Reform and their endorsed candidates need to be honest with the public. We wish we didn't have to send out so much information but we need to get the truth in your hands. We apologize for the flurry of e-mails, but we know that our words are important and that you are a thoughtful person. In the meantime, are these people really watchdogs or are they merely lapdogs? Stay Tuned for our endorsements this coming week.
Re: [Mpls] Lloydletta's Nooz Gets Plug from Politics in MN for Identifying Stop Scott Blog/Push Polling by Lilligren?
On 10/16/05 9:24 AM, Barbara Lickness [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nothing nefarious going on here Eva. I don't know why you would say the call was strange. There are no strange questions being asked. Pretty run of the mill for a political campaign in my mind. Certainly as long as you have mingled in politics you can't think polling voters is a new or strange phenomenon. The woman doing the polling is not from the Lilligren campaign as you quoted, she was hired by the campaign. There is quite a difference in those meanings. Might Eva or Barbara share what the questions being asked were, which would allow the rest of us to decide whether they are strange or not? Mark Snyder Windom Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Public Debt
On 10/15/05 1:01 AM, Phyllis Kahn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The truth is that RT (and his fellow economists on the city council) are bonding for public pensions; an act of fiscal irresponsibility that is practised by no other city in the state and prehaps even in the country. A practice forbidden by our constitution to the state. Even worse, these are fully taxable, unlike tax exempt municiple bonds. All because our city leaders refused to deal with the MERF and Mpls police pension funds in a timely manner. While I certainly agree with Rep. Kahn that bonding for public pensions is not the preferred approach, I have difficulty taking her chastising seriously given the unwillingness that she, and other Minneapolis legislators have shown as far as holding the police pension board accountable for: 1. really short-sighted benefits administration (my primary concern). 2. really, really bad investment decisions. The State Auditor office has independently confirmed the various shortcomings demonstrated by the police pension board that the mayor and city council economists have complained about for years. What does Rep. Kahn intend to do to address these concerns and protect the interests of her constituents? Mark Snyder Windom Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Push Polling by Lilligren?
There is no evidence of *push polling* by Robert Lilligren. Push polling is the practice of conveying negative information about an opponent by asking contrived questions in a manner suggestive of polling. Wikipedia gives the example of the Bush campaign's alleged *poll* where they asked the question Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child? during the 2000 campaign in South Carolina. Russell Raczkowski Bancroft REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Heating the great outdoors
On 10/16/05, Jim McGuire [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I realized a while ago that a by-product of the smoking ban is that bars are going to be providing heat outdoors for smokers using heat lamps or whatever works. Personally, I think this is a bad idea. It will provide small comfort to the smokers, of course, but heating the outdoors in the winter in Minnesota is a silly idea at best, but I know from talking to bar owners near me that they are already making plans to do just that. Perhaps I'm missing something here, but why exactly is this a bad idea? The way I see it, if bar owners want to spend their money to attract smokers in this way, it is no different from spending money on other things to attract customers. It has nothing to do with me. -- Nathan Hunstad CARAG Minneapolis, MN PGP DH/DSS public key -- http://www.angelfire.com/mn/freakpower/nhpubkey.txt Do you Gonzo?! http://www.angelfire.com/mn/freakpower REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] NRP nixes LNA $80,000 request - Other Sources Sought
Scott Moore wrote: snip What's all this I hear about a missing $80,000? Where did the money go? Seeing a dollar amount in red ink with a minus sign in front of it might be alarming. It has been stated in this forum a couple of times that the Changes in Fund Balance amount of -$82,023 did not come from NRP. Here's a quote from a letter by Michael Wilson, the CPA who audited the financial statements of LNA: http://www.mail-archive.com/mpls@mnforum.org/msg41124.html The LNA was engaged in activities that a major funding source, the Minneapolis NRP, chose not to fund. While these activities appeared to be consistent with the LNAs overall mission, they were not consistent with the NRP's contracts. Here's a quote from the letter posted by the list manager addressed to Wendy Pareene. It is a response to her letter of February 10, 2003: http://www.mail-archive.com/mpls@mnforum.org/msg41093.html As has been explained to you on several occasions, due to disagreements that arose in 2000 about the way that staff time should be accounted for and reimbursed, NRP declined to reimburse LNA for a sum of approximately $83,000. Some LNA staff worked some hours, put in some time and got paid but when LNA went to NRP, one of their funding sources, to cover this expense NRP said no? That's what appears to have happened. Staff time may be accounted for in a budget under operations or supportive services. Since the money LNA was hoping to get from NRP did not come it had to come from other sources. Mark Anderson replies: I've been an accountant in the private sector for twenty-five years, and I was Treasurer at the Bancroft Neighborhood Association for three years. I have a pretty good feel for what the books should look like on the detail level. I gotta believe that Wendy Wilde received more information as a member of the executive committee than has been provided on the Mpls Issues List. But if the information provided here is representative of the usual reaction to her request to know what's going on, then she has a right to be angry. Maybe the financial management of LNA is out of control. The letter from the outside auditor was worthless. I hope he provided a more detailed accounting of what happened to the Board, or he should be fired. It's been stated several times that LNA spent this money and then NRP decided not to cover these expenses. That's all well and good, but it's not an explanation. The question is why didn't NRP reimburse LNA for the expenses? NRP does cover the normal administrative costs of running a neighborhood office. What was so extravagant about these costs that NRP wouldn't pay them? Maybe there are perfectly reasonable explanations for it, but it certainly does bear explaining what happened. $82,000 is a lot of money. I sometimes felt a bit irresponsible for agreeing to $25 expenditures that NRP wouldn't cover. $82,000 should be explained in great detail to anyone who asks. When I was Treasurer of BNA, I always felt that every penny spent was public information. I explained the financial events to the Board in our monthly meetings in as much detail as they asked for. I wasn't always clear about some of the complicated goings on, but I was willing to take as long as it took to make them understand the financial status of the neighborhood. And I would do the same for anyone who lived in the neighborhood. I don't live in Lyndale Neighborhood, so I don't feel owed an explanation on what happened, but I do feel some sympathy for Wendy. I agree that one needs to take the volunteer labor into account when judging how a neighborhood is run. At BNA, we certainly made plenty of mistakes, and we never had time to run the association as well as we'd have liked to. But that is no excuse for not having complete financial transparency. The whole reason Wendy brought this up was to torpedo Scott Persons' council hopes. I don't know if that is reasonable. Even if LNA was somewhat dysfunctional financially and Scott was the president some of the time, I don't think you can put all the blame on one person (pun intended). Scott Moore continued: So if NRP didn't give LNA this money, how did LNA cover this staff time? $457,351 fiscal 02 revenue -$428,357 fiscal 02 expenses $ 28,994 fiscal 02 excess $209,954 fund balance at beginning of year 02 -$156,925 fund balance at the end of year 02 $ 53,029 difference +$ 28,994 fiscal 02 excess $ 82,023 Mark Anderson replies: What kind of explanation is this? It explains nothing. All it says is LNA had extra money in 02 so it could pay off the deficit from an earlier year. The question is where did the funding come from? I can't imagine a funding source like McKnight or Otto Bremer agreeing to pay off the $82,000 just to cover LNA's deficit. What funding source paid off the $82,000, since NRP wouldn't do so? I'm not accusing LNA of any
Re: [Mpls] Push Polling by Lilligren?
Thank you for clarifying that Russell. I would also like to state that the Lilligren campaign is definately NOT engaged in push polling. We are just polling voters. Robert has guided all of us who are working on his campaign to stay on the high road and run a campaign based on the issues and why he is the best person to represent the 6th ward during the next term. Barb Lickness Whittier Avid supporter of Robert Lilligren in the 6th. Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. -- Margaret Mead REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Buckthorn removal in Seward
I have been working on getting funding for Buckthorn removal in Seward for several years. I want to thank the Park Board environmental and forestry crews and the great volunteers who showed up to haul out this invasive species from the river gorge. In one area there were 28 ft. trees and areas that was entirely Buckthorn thickets- all now wood chips. I want to thank Marcia Holmberg from the Park Board and Elizabeth Storey from the Friends of the Mississippi who helped organize this event and Great River Greening who are doing forest restoration in this area. Thanks to Gary for coordinating the Forestry crew and to Elwood whose infectious enthusiasm for cutting down buckthorn is a joy to behold. We have some great folks working for the Park Board and it was pleasure working with them this weekend. Thanks, Scott VreelandSeward REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] 6th/8th/10th Ward Races/Response to Mike Krause column in Lavender/Call paid for by Lilligren Campaign
1. 6th Ward Race 2. 8th Ward Race 3. 10th Ward Race 4. EM Boatner's column on Gay Youth Programs 5. My response to Mike Krause's column on local races and need for gays to focus on legislative special elections 6. Lilligren Campaign Polling Calls to Voters Lavender Magazine has an article about the 6th Ward Race http://www.lavendermagazine.com/artman/publish/article_1502.php Candidate Dean Zimmerman drew a sharp contrast between he and openly Gay Robert Lilligren in that race: Zimmermann, in answer to the statement that the choice between him and Lilligren will be tough for many GLBT voters, remarks, Tough? What's tough about it? I have a history of being outspoken on questions of civil liberties. When the issue of equal benefits for spouses/partners came up at the Council, I and Council Member Lisa Goodman were the only ones who spoke up about how the gays on our Council were being short-changed. Zimmermann adds, Robert just sat there on his hands. I think this shows the clear difference between Bob and me. Whether it is GLBT issues, policy issues, or constituent service, I'm not just a vote; I am an advocate. Dean Zimmerman's Ad: Dean on his bicycle in his Green Tutu, standing next to the Fire Chief (disclaimer says that photo doesn't imply endorsement). * 8th Ward candidate interviews in Lavender: http://www.lavendermagazine.com/artman/publish/article_1503.php All 8th ward candidates support gay marriage. 10th Ward Race: Scott Persons has an effective ad that has non-Minneapolis resident, Paul Skrbec (Stonewall DFL Chair) promoting him. Ralph Remington has an Ad - but the ad gives no information beyond his name. Ralph Remington has made his Stonewall screening answers public here: http://www.ralphremington.com/STONEWALLquestions.htm I'd like to challenge Scott Persons to make his Stonewall screening answers public - because many gay voters would just as soon see both questionairs then make their own decisions on who to vote for. ** Lavender: Managing Editor EM Boatner discusses Gay Youth: http://www.lavendermagazine.com/artman/publish/article_1528.php Time Magazine in its October 10 issue and our Northland Notes column this issue both address the issue of out gay youngsters, making me aware of a trend I didn't even know existed. According to John Cloud's feature article in Time, Ritch Savin-Williams's recently published The New Gay Teenager (Harvard University Press, 2005), and numerous other sources, I learned that thousands of kids are coming out as young as 13 and 14. This avalanche of new queer youth has come as a surprise (and shock) not only to the religious and conservative right, but also to the GLBT community itself, which, for the most part, has focused youth-oriented efforts on the troubled, the homeless, substance abusers, or hustlers. Read the whole thing. Krause analysis of Minneapolis/St Paul Races - especially Minneapolis: Lavender columnist, Mike Krause discusses the political maturity of the GLBT community: http://www.lavendermagazine.com/artman/publish/article_1506.php Lisa Vecoli, a GLBT activist who herself ran for a State Senate seat from South Minneapolis in 2000, observes that GLBT political power built up over the last 20 years is being undermined, at least this year, as much by political apathy as any other factor. Vecoli helped engineer the endorsement of the Stonewall DFL Caucus for Minneapolis mayoral candidate Peter McLaughlin, but she acknowledges that the GLBT vote in the city seems to be fairly evenly split between McLaughlin and incumbent Mayor R.T. Rybak. Some analysts would argue that having the GLBT vote spread among many candidates and campaigns is a sign of a maturing political movement. It also reflects that support for the civil rights of GLBT residents, at least within most of the urban area, is a consensus issue not even part of the political debate. This year, GLBT voters are more likely to decide among the mayoral candidates based on their positions on the city- and county-enacted smoking bans as on a candidate's positions on GLBT issues. EY: This shows that in Minneapolis Stonewall DFL's endorsement does not translate into GLBT votes. This was true 4 years ago also. What Krause is missing is political gays in MN focus excessively on Minneapolis and St Paul - at the expense of working on swing legislative districts. Log Cabin Republicans of Minnesota has met with and had a good discussion with Plymouth candidate Judy Johnson. Johnson will also be meeting with the anti-gay groups: Minnesotans for Marriage (misnamed), and the Minnesota Family Council (also misnamed). The meeting was an introduction meeting - not a screening session. Three of us went and observed the Republican District convention district 43. Unlike the 58th
[Mpls] Sunday afternoon
I was driving up my block at around 4 p.m. today while the sun was hitting Marjory, the maple tree in my front yard, full on. Marjory flamed against the white pine and the half green-half red high bush cranberry. It was enough to fill the heart with joy for a breathtaking moment. WizardMarks, Central REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] City Pages: 8th Ward white fight
Loki Anderson wrote: Does anyone want to look at ALL the factors in this primary or do we just want to focus on race? Why doesn't this article mention the fact that there were 10 candidates in the race all trying to get their message out? Why doesn't it mention the fact that Hauser, Glidden and Dennis Tifft seriously out raised Hayden in campaign funds? Or that labor and name recognition played a part in boosting Hauser? Or that Glidden is from King Field and that she got a big boost from the vote totals in those two precincts? I would never say that there wasn't a racial component to the race, but to say that it was the primary factor in Hayden's loss doesn't tell the whole story. Mark Anderson replies: Thank you Loki. I think the council race had very little to do with race. It appeared to me that people voted for the person they thought would do the best, without focusing on each person's outward appearance. Which is how it should be. Instead of bemoaning the lack of a Black winner in a Ward where Whites are in the minority, we should happy that people are looking beyond such trivialities. Certainly in my neighborhood, there are a lot of Blacks and Whites and various other races living amongst each other. I have noticed very few racial issues in the 19 years I've lived here, and I think that is a good thing. In any case, Blacks are not a majority in Ward 8 either. There seems to be a presumption that non-Black minorities will likely vote for a Black over a White. I think that's not true. If Hispanics or Hmong vote on the basis of race, it will as likely be against Blacks as for them. Mark V Anderson Bancroft REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Reasonable questions / answers on -$82,000 Scott Persons
Mark Anderson replies: I've been an accountant in the private sector for twenty-five years, and I was Treasurer at the Bancroft Neighborhood Association for three years. I have a pretty good feel for what the books should look like on the detail level. I gotta believe that Wendy received more information as a member of the executive committee than has been provided on the Mpls Issues List. But if the information provided here is representative of the usual reaction to her request to know what's going on, then she has a right to be angry. Maybe the financial management of LNA is out of control. Wendy Response: No, Mark, I never was given more detail than the lump sum. The board was never given more detail than the lump sum. That is why I asked, and was rebuked as though I was a foolish child. I was intimidated by the condescension into voting to approve the write off. I later heard realized that I had allowed myself to be intimidated into approving something that I really should have had more information on. I heard comments from former and current board members that made me uncomfortable with how I had voted. So I made a motion at a board meeting for an independent investigation and full accounting to the board of how that money was spent... and was shouted down and run off the board... voted off the board suddenly after 2.5 years for being rude within 2 months of pressing for an investigation. I was threatened with slander lawsuits on several occasions by Scott Persons and some of his neighborhood friends. Bottom line for me is... I don't want to see such secretive and vicious croney behavior in Minneapolis City Hall and that is why I brought my information to the public eye. Mark Anderson writes: The letter from the outside auditor was worthless. I hope he provided a more detailed accounting of what happened to the Board, or he should be fired. Wendy response: The Board was never presented with more than his letter, and that was only written after I pressed and pressed for a full accounting. Mark Anderson writes: I agree that one needs to take the volunteer labor into account when judging how a neighborhood is run. At BNA, we certainly made plenty of mistakes, and we never had time to run the association as well as we'd have liked to. But that is no excuse for not having complete financial transparency. Wendy responds: transparency and itemized accounting of where that money went... that's what I asked for. Anyone can make mistakes. But instead of just opening the books and answering questions, people became red faced with anger and became outraged and couldn't work with me any more. They were so busy telling everyone how hostile I was that they never did get around to answering the question of the itemized accounting, instead distracted everyone from the real issue with the dramatics. Mark Anderson writes: The whole reason Wendy brought this up was to torpedo Scott Persons' council hopes. I don't know if that is reasonable. Even if LNA was somewhat dysfunctional financially and Scott was the president some of the time, I don't think you can put all the blame on one person (pun intended). Wendy responds: Last thing we need is more Mpls City Council people being raided by the FBI over $7000 or sent off to prison over other financial indiscretions. The poorly managed -$42,000 budget and the next year's -$82,000 write off without itemized accounting... and the subsequent machinations of Scott and his circle of friends to keep me from getting an itemized accounting of that money is more than worthy of my fellow citizens' attention at election time. Wendy Pareene Minneapolis REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] The scope of responsibility for a City Council or Mayor
David Strand reminded us of a 2003 City Pages article that discussed an anti-war resolution proposed by Council Person Paul Zerby, and other related topics on the make-up of the council. David's question to the list was: What can we do to empower those attempting to enact progressive policies at city hall in the upcoming elections and after? Well, the answer is easy - elect the most progressive people you can find to City Hall. Otherwise, I'm wondering what sort of empowerment you're suggesting - do you want the procedural rules changed to make it easier for progressive policies to be enacted? In the meantime, I'll argue that resolutions about national/international affairs have no place in the City Council chambers. It's a waste of time. If individuals on the council have strong feelings either way, they should exercise their First Amendment rights like anybody else, and speak as private citizens. We're not paying people to sit in City Hall offices and debate Washington DC policy making. Mark Hanson Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] 6th/8th/10th Ward Races/Response to Mike Krause column in Lavender/Call paid for by Lilligren Campaign
EY: 10th Ward Race: Scott Persons has an effective ad that has non-Minneapolis resident, Paul Skrbec (Stonewall DFL Chair) promoting him. Ralph Remington has an Ad - but the ad gives no information beyond his name. Ralph Remington has made his Stonewall screening answers public here: http://www.ralphremington.com/STONEWALLquestions.htm I'd like to challenge Scott Persons to make his Stonewall screening answers public - because many gay voters would just as soon see both questionairs then make their own decisions on who to vote for. PS: First, I would like to point out that I am quoted in Scott's ad as the Chair of Stonewall DFL. Stonewall DFL is a state-wide organization chartered under the MN state DFL party. This is a perfectly legitimate action on Scott's part, but for the record my address was Minneapolis for a short time in the mid 1990s prior purchasing a home in St. Paul for 10 years. I now reside in the suburbs *gasp* along with over 40% of the GLBT community in the state. With regard to Scott's questionnaire, any person that would like a copy of any of our endorsed candidate's questionnaires, they just need to request it from me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and I will be more than happy to forward it. Stonewall DFL will not - however post this information in a public forum. Screening questionnaires are available to the public by request only. EY: What Krause is missing is political gays in MN focus excessively on Minneapolis and St Paul - at the expense of working on swing legislative districts. Log Cabin Republicans of Minnesota has met with and had a good discussion with Plymouth candidate Judy Johnson. Johnson will also be meeting with the anti-gay groups: Minnesotans for Marriage (misnamed), and the Minnesota Family Council (also misnamed). The meeting was an introduction meeting - not a screening session. Three of us went and observed the Republican District convention district 43. Unlike the 58th District convention in Minneapolis (and from what I've heard of the 59th district convention), there was no wingnuttery, no anti-gay lit pieces, no speeches about people marrying animals - or perhaps trees (this was congressional candidate Dan Matthias's speech) - just discussion of accountable government. Judy Johnson is President of the League of Cities - and used to live in Minneapolis. She used to intern for John Derus. Some democrats have encouraged her to join the Democratic Party - and she is staying in the Republican party. Friends of mine in Stillwater said that Stonewall was not there helping when the notoriously anti-gay Michele Bachmann was running in 2000 and 2002. Stonewall DFL's assistance could have made the difference in those races. PS: With respect to your comments about Stillwater and Michelle Bachmann - I appreciate your passion and fixation on the topic, however 1) this is a Minneapolis issues list, therefore your commentary on it is not consistent with the topic of the list and 2) for the record, I was not on the board of directors in 2000 or 2002. To make an implication that the actions of past years leadership holds valid today is not an accurate assessment of the current administration. Out of 13 members of our board of directors, only 3 have records that go back that far in history. This is almost entirely fresh blood in the party. Please don't compare apples with cantaloupes. Additionally, nearly 50% of our caucus leadership (myself included) have residency outside of the city limits of Minneapolis as is appropriate and expected for a state-wide caucus. Paul R. Skrbec Chair, Stonewall DFL Inver Grove Heights, MN [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eva Young Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 7:14 PM To: Minneapolis Issues Forum Subject: [Mpls] 6th/8th/10th Ward Races/Response to Mike Krause column in Lavender/Call paid for by Lilligren Campaign 1. 6th Ward Race 2. 8th Ward Race 3. 10th Ward Race 4. EM Boatner's column on Gay Youth Programs 5. My response to Mike Krause's column on local races and need for gays to focus on legislative special elections 6. Lilligren Campaign Polling Calls to Voters Lavender Magazine has an article about the 6th Ward Race http://www.lavendermagazine.com/artman/publish/article_1502.php Candidate Dean Zimmerman drew a sharp contrast between he and openly Gay Robert Lilligren in that race: Zimmermann, in answer to the statement that the choice between him and Lilligren will be tough for many GLBT voters, remarks, Tough? What's tough about it? I have a history of being outspoken on questions of civil liberties. When the issue of equal benefits for spouses/partners came up at the Council, I and Council Member Lisa Goodman were the only ones who spoke up about how the gays on our Council were being short-changed. Zimmermann adds, Robert just sat there on his hands. I think this shows the clear difference between Bob and
Re: [Mpls] The scope of responsibility for a City Council or Mayor
--- Mark Hanson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the meantime, I'll argue that resolutions about national/international affairs have no place in the City Council chambers. It's a waste of time. If individuals on the council have strong feelings either way, they should exercise their First Amendment rights like anybody else, and speak as private citizens. We're not paying people to sit in City Hall offices and debate Washington DC policy making. Mark Hanson Prospect Park This is complete abrogation of responsibility. The city has an intergovernmental relations committee for a reason and there is reason for the city to speak out on many issues that will impact the city and yes Mark, the wasteful war of choice in Iraq will have an impact for years to come on the ability of the federal government to prioritize needs of importance to the city due to the financial sinkhole it has created. To the extent the shift in priorities necessitated by engaging a supposed pre-emptive war which is by definition a war of choice impacts the cities priorities and access to resources, it is the responbility of our city officials to speak up. I presume Mark thinks that the city councils of New York City, Chicago, Los Angles, and numerous other metropolitian areas were off base when they passed antiwar resolutions pertaining to the war in Iraq because the war distracts from what those city leaders felt where higher priorities. The strict seperation of levels of government philosophy is detrimental to the city in other ways and is often applied in the other direction to say the city shouldn't act on issues that the county, state or federal government SHOULD take responsibility for. I think of some of our city council people's attitudes towards the city's dept of health and human services which has been the first responder to so many issue of importance to the city on issues which the county, state or nation have not yet had political will to act on. I think of how the department of health and human services has historically worked with local citizens seeking to address glbtiq youth issues, HIV/AIDS prevention programs and many many other issues in the city at a time when these issues where nowhere on the radar of the county, state, and federal government. As the closest level of government, the city can be far more responsive to the unique and emerging needs of it's population in the areas of health and human services than higher levels of government. Often this response has meant bringing together private sector actors and supporting initial formation of organizations that become funded by a combination of private funds and grants from higher levels of governemnt as the importance of the work becomes apparent in excercise. The city has been very successful when supported by the political powers of the city in helping leverage resources to address many of our cities most pressing health and human needs. Strict seperation of government folks would want to pigeon hole such responsibilities at distinct levels of government which restricts responsiveness and therefore effectiveness. So if the county, state or federal government are failing to take action on a health or human need in our community is the solution to have local government neglect to address the issue itself and let people suffer and or die because it's not the appropriate role of city government? So many private and public nonprofits and services in our city which make it a better place to live and in the long run save us all money by reducing healthcare, welfare and even criminal justice costs would not exist if it were not for the involvement of the city's department of health and human services with local citizens and institutions looking for innovative solutions to the cities problems. Social invention that moves our quality of life forward almost always begins at the local level and spreads to other local jurisdictions and communities before ever being supported by higher levels of government, just as the most innovative ideas in business usually start with small businesses before being adopted by large businesses, not the other way around. David Strand Loring Park __ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Heating the great outdoors
Back in high school the guys smoked outside even on the coldest day, without winter clothing. I'm sure none of them are any less hearty, heroic, and macho now than they were then. In fact, they are more so, more stunningly masculine with each passing day. Cold? You think THIS is cold? Ha! This is NOTHING! Would you want to take this away from them, converting them into a race of nanny-bar sissies? --David Shove Roseville On Sun, 16 Oct 2005, Jim McGuire wrote: I realized a while ago that a by-product of the smoking ban is that bars are going to be providing heat outdoors for smokers using heat lamps or whatever works. Personally, I think this is a bad idea. It will provide small comfort to the smokers, of course, but heating the outdoors in the winter in Minnesota is a silly idea at best, but I know from talking to bar owners near me that they are already making plans to do just that. I'm just curious if anyone else has given this any thought and what could be done to lessen the impact of this. Jim McGuire Como Check out the Usual Suspects Blog - http://www.browncross.com/usualsuspects REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
