RE: [Mpls] Who Speaks for White People?
I didn't hear white people defining black leadership. I heard *the media* defining black leadership, and then everybody falling in line responding to an over-simplified media portrayal. I think the question of leadership in the black community is quite a bit more complex, and that the 'squeaky wheels' in the Jennings issue are activists with some measure of leadership within certain circles. ___ insert race people defining insert race leadership may indeed be stupid. However, questioning someone labeled a 'leader' (whether by themselves, the media, whoever) in terms of who they represent is a perfectly valid question. There is a world of difference between defining and questioning. Regards, Jason Stone | Hale --- Eric Oines [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You are all missing the point. White people defining Black leadership is stupid, just as Black people defining white leadership is stupid. I think what Booker T is saying, if I may, is that this whole Black leadership thing ends up being a way to pidgeon-hole people of color and then discredit people who speak out. And of course, Mr. Krasnoff took the bait immediately with a litany of discredited Black Leaders. Randy Staten doesn't represent Booker T Hodges any more than Rush Limbaugh, Strom Thurmand, David Duke, Tim Pawlenty, Robert Lillegren, or RT represents me. I just love how some of the white folks get defensive when the tables are turned. Thanks for the chuckles... Eric Oines North Minneapolis Lind-Bohanon When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall - think of it, always. ~ Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948), Agitator _ Cheer a special someone with a fun Halloween eCard from American Greetings! Go to http://www.msn.americangreetings.com/index_msn.pd?source=msne134 REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls __ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Who Speaks for White People?
Eric, Congratulations. I believe you understood my point. I have never needed anyone, White, Black, or otherwise to lead me anywhere. I can agree with, or disagree with, someone's point of view, or toss out my own. It is just like Black History Month. Somebody decided that celebrating once a year was enough, like Christmas,and a majority of Black folks fell into line with it. I simply cannot. I am very proud to be Black the other eleven months, too. I don't need to be patronized by White companies putting ads in minority publications once a year. It is simply another way of being put in a box. Its the same way with this leadership thing. It is a crock, and there is noGreat Black (or White, or Hispanic, etc.) Hope out there. There are simply people who take stands. We all need to remember that - they are only flesh and blood not Gods. We can admire folks for their leadership abilities and willingness to put themselves on the line for causes, but don't let it turn in to a three ring circus. Listen to the issue or review the cause for yourself, and make up your own mind. Kinda like movie reviews. The critic may say its a bad movie, but if you like cheesy movies, go see it. Decide for yourself how you feel. Be an individual. The world was built on people following their own hearts and minds. And, again, it is the best thing you can teach your children. Pamela Taylor (Tampa) Eric Oines [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You are all missing the point.White people defining "Black leadership" is stupid, just as Black people defining "white leadership" is stupid.I think what Booker T is saying, if I may, is that this whole "Black leadership" thing ends up being a way to pidgeon-hole people of color and then discredit people who speak out. And of course, Mr. Krasnoff took the bait immediately with a litany of "discredited Black Leaders".Randy Staten doesn't represent Booker T Hodges any more than Rush Limbaugh, Strom Thurmand, David Duke, Tim Pawlenty, Robert Lillegren, or RT represents me.I just love how some of the white folks get defensive when the tables are turned.Thanks for the chuckles...Eric OinesNorth MinneapolisLind-Bohanon"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and < BR>love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall - think of it, always."~ Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948), Agitator_Cheer a special someone with a fun Halloween eCard from American Greetings! Go to http://www.msn.americangreetings.com/index_msn.pd?source=msne134REMINDERS:1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.htmlFor external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteractMinneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-DemocracyPost messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
Re: [Mpls] Who Speaks for White People?
Hello Booker and Minneapolis Folks, These are very complicated issues that bring strong emotions from many people.One person cannot speak for everyone, nor should they, but you can represent a group of people that have elected or appointed you to speak on behalf of them.We will also alwayshave people-electorate-group-members that opposed the elected or appointed individualindividualfrom within those groups. No one voice speaks for all of us, and they shouldn't. Politicians and activisthave different motivations for their work, many are committed to making the world a better place to live, and have deep convictions that inspire their work andpositions.We also will always havepeoplethat are motivated by power-influence,and money: ideology, and beliefs, are nothing more then tools for attaining their personal goals. I encourage people to voice their opinions, and challenge, our leaders, and ourselves to strive to create a better world, and without disagreementwedo not havedemocracy, and sharing of opinions and ideas is the most important part of creating a better world. I believe the Star Tribune tone and content has been wrong on several recent stories.I believe it is important to point this out to journalist when this happens, but also understand they are human and imperfect like rest of us, and hope this has some impact for change. The Star Tribunehas work todo related to race-relations in our community, African American and other communties of color. They have taken a step backwards and started using Native American mascot names in their reporting, something they had previously stopped doing. I have to agree with Booker that the Star Tribune shouldn't't have released the Mr. Porteras a police informant, this seems like a double standard. The Star Tribune haswritten about and editorializedthe Bush administration releasing information about a former CIA person to the media (Caucasian women), because it could harm the individual in variety of ways. We should be asking who within the Minneapolis Polic e or other departments released this information to the Star Tribune.The Star Tribune alsopurchases paper from Abiti which is clear cutting Grassy Narrows Objiwa forest in Ontario Canada. The Grassy Narrow Ojibwa have been protesting, and performing acts of civil disobedience for nearly a year to protect their land from being destroyed. The Star Tribune management has ignore this issue, which has been written about by Tom Knudson of the Sacramento Bee a McClatchy owned paper on two occasions.The paper should consider looking at issues of institutional racism if it desires to reflect the community they serve. Iwas a very early support and consultantfor R.T. Rybak, but have privately and publicly disagreed with Mayor Rybak on numerous occasions.I am not been afraid to express my disagreement withthe Star Tribune have done so today and in previous post, but disagree with the Booker's accusation that it is "Rybak-Times", that is just incorrect.I might be covering information previously provideby others (I don't readall theposts, sorry, I have a job). R.T. Rybak was not endorsed by the Star Tribune in either the primary or the general election. He did work for the paper many years ago. I am assuming employees that worked for the paper supported him and opposed him during the election. The paper has written favorable and unfavorable stores about him and they also did this with Sharron Sayles Belton. I would be curious to see an analysis of media coverage of both mayors during their terms. I also do not think refering to the pap er as "Rybak-Times" is very productive style ofargument, and does not probable benefit your overall goals. The Minneapolis Civil Rights Department (CRD) has beeninactive for 21 months, which creates several problems. Current complaints are not being addressed,and the public is less likely to file a complaint becausethey believe it is a waste of time, police also do not worry about having consquences. I am curious why Booker believes the CRDstaff is spending all their time shopping at Marshall Field. I am not sure again that is correct or such statement are helpful or motivating. Respectfully, Ken Bradley Corcoran Neighborhood 612-728-8962 Booker Hodges [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Booker T InvestigatesMinnesota Spokesman-RecorderPublished 10-29-03Who speaks for White people?Leadership in the African American community has been the hot topic of discussion of late. The Star Tribune and Minneapolis Mayor R.T. Rybak have taken it upon themselves to try to define and discredit some leaders in the African American community.If you recall, back in December 2002 I wrote a column expressing my concern about several leaders in our community. I said that I didn't feel comfortable with any one person saying that he or she speaks for the African American community. In that column I listed several people whom I felt were doing just that, speaking for the entire Black community. The Star
Re: [Mpls] Who Speaks for White People?
Eric Oines writes: You are all missing the point. White people defining Black leadership is stupid, just as Black people defining white leadership is stupid. I think what Booker T is saying, if I may, is that this whole Black leadership thing ends up being a way to pidgeon-hole people of color and then discredit people who speak out. And of course, Mr. Krasnoff took the bait immediately with a litany of discredited Black Leaders. Randy Staten doesn't represent Booker T Hodges any more than Rush Limbaugh, Strom Thurmand, David Duke, Tim Pawlenty, Robert Lillegren, or RT represents me. I just love how some of the white folks get defensive when the tables are turned. Peter Schmitz responds: Well done, Eric!!! All this nonsense coming out of our current mayor's mouth regarding black leadership is a determined effort by him, Doug Grow and their corporate masters at the Star Tribune to divide and conquer an oppressed population in our city. While triangulation and turning black people against other benefited Bill Clinton and his corporate masters, R.T. and his buddies, as I've said before, need to realize that only Bill Clinton can get away with being Bill Clinton (thank God!). As for the Mayor's relationship with the Star Tribune: Andy Driscoll is correct that the Star Tribune endorsed Sharon Sayles Belton over him. In addition to not endorsing Rybak, the Strib continuously downplayed the successes of R.T.'s campaign up to the general election. They even had the audacity to bring up his troubled relationship with a sibling. After R.T. won the election, the Star Tribune warned the mayor elect, in a strongly-worded post-election editorial, not to listen to the granola faction that supposedly swept him into office. Well two years later, the Mayor has reformed. In addition to gutting the Civilian Review Authority (thus depriving reasonable and timely recourse for those brutalized by our local police) he now supports public funding for a new sports stadium as well as the 35W Excess Project. Had Mr. Hodges called the Star Tribune The Rybak Times two years ago, he would've been way off the mark. But now that R.T. is doing such a good job pleasing his corporate masters beyond their original expectaions, the name rather fits. Thank you, Booker T. Hodges for your keen insights. I hope you consider running for mayor. -Peter Schmitz CARAG REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Who Speaks for White People?
On Nov 3, 2003, at 7:51 PM, Peter T Schmitz wrote: Eric Oines writes: You are all missing the point. White people defining Black leadership is stupid, just as Black people defining white leadership is stupid. I think what Booker T is saying, if I may, is that this whole Black leadership thing ends up being a way to pidgeon-hole people of color The Japanese? and then discredit people who speak out. This happens only when the people who accept the role of a Black Leader (Reg. U.S. Pat. Off.) end up doing or saying stupid things, or worse. And of course, Mr. Krasnoff took the bait immediately with a litany of discredited Black Leaders. Randy Staten doesn't represent Booker T Hodges any more than Rush Limbaugh, Strom Thurmand, David Duke, Tim Pawlenty, Robert Lillegren, or RT represents me. I just love how some of the white folks get defensive when the tables are turned. What bait? Dude, I've seen this all before. Only the city and names are different. All this nonsense helps to perpetuate The Struggle(tm). Also sells newspapers and air time, but that's another story. You don't have to use quotation marks when referring to my litany of NYC social justice adherents: they are discredited. It's not up to me to decide who's an authentic black/negro/colored/African-American, but it's a real giveaway when they have lotsa melanin and stuff, like different facial features than whites, asians, and anyone from Wisconsin;, speech patterns; shnozolas; and SUVs with tacky rims. Kinda hard not to miss authentic black people. Sorta like Chasidic Jews - can't miss their authenticity. Neal Krasnoff Loring Park REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Who Speaks for White People?
Hi everyone. I think this thread has temporarily exhausted its local possibilities. Let's move on to specific local topics, please. David Brauer List manager REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Who Speaks for White People?
Okay. I admit it. It's me. I speak for White people. We had a Caucasian caucus on Confederate Memorial Day and I was elected emissary because of my genetics. In the future I will try and make broad ranging statements and try to be available when a comment needs to be made or questions answered. Now I'm off to listen to another rendition of How Much Is That Doggy In The Window. Kidding aside, there are several underlying points in this discussion that are quite poignant and several good things that have already been said. One of the best pieces of this discussion I think, is the raising of awareness with the hopeful shifting of the paradigm away from the segmentation that continues to reinforce segregation amongst our various culures. To really understand the discussion, I think you have to look back at history. For several hundred years, White has been considered the status quo or the default. There was no definition or citation of White leadership because of this consideration. Black leadership, Latino leadership, GLBT leadership became defined as such because they were contrary to the norm. I'll focus on Black leadership because it was the main topic raised and for brevity. But historically, Blacks have not had a voice or representation on a daily basis. They were not allowed to. Institutionalized racism and systems of oppression did not allow it. And to cross that rubicon meant death or something worse. Thus when a Frederick Douglas spoke up, he wasn't labelled simply a leader, he was a Black leader. When Martin Luther King or Malcolm X or Fannie Lou Hamer spoke, they were Black leaders. In some regards it is an intentional/unintentional marginalization, in some regards it is the larger population trying to find where things fit in contrast to what has been taught and permeates our society regarding race and achievement. In addition, when these people spoke, they were dealing with different approaches to the same core issues. The majority of the Black community was unified in it's need to address oppression and racism. Thus a leader of the Black Community existed because there was a common enemy or goal. As we fast forward to today, issues and faces have changed. There is not one or two single issues or one or two single perspectives, and that is progress in many regards. But what it also calls for is this shift from segmenting or labelling people in these areas, while not forgetting or diminishing the importance of the issues, especially ones that affect primarily Black people or other marginalized groups. Ron Edwards may have a different approach than Randy Staten, who may be different from Don Samuels' who may be different from Natalie Johnson-Lee's. Each approach may be valid, especially if there are a committed group of constituents behind them and it resonates with the concerns of the larger community, but I prefer to think of them as leaders IN the Black community versus leaders OF the Black community. I look forward to the day when it will be okay to drop the Black off the label and make it just leaders of the community, but many people aren't any more ready for that than they are to integrate Black history with regular history. In essence, the issues that we face: Who's the next superintendent, are convenience stores okay, where and how do you voice concerns about police officer interactions and where are money and resources flowing to and from are not Black/White issues, but rather human and civil rights issues. They are often framed in terms of race because of historical perceptions or current propensities, but the core is about human dignity and civility. About doing the right thing and being aware of historical and racial factors while not getting derailed into them. Who speaks for White people? No one does, anymore that one person speaks for all Black people. The need now is to focus on the core issues and develop solutions that work across racial and cultural lines. The need is for people to be treated equally and fairly across these segmenting factors. And if you find that a Randy Staten or a Don Samuels or a Booker T. Hodges says something that resonates with you or is leading the charge, then support them. Follow them as you will, but remember that they're not leaders of a segmentation of society, they're leaders period. Leaders who may represent certain issues or constituents, but in the end just leaders not reserved or restricted to certain areas. Move beyond the rhetoric and deal with what's right and necessary. Jonathan Palmer Victory REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis
[Mpls] Who Speaks for White People?
Booker T Investigates Minnesota Spokesman-Recorder Published 10-29-03 Who speaks for White people? Leadership in the African American community has been the hot topic of discussion of late. The Star Tribune and Minneapolis Mayor R.T. Rybak have taken it upon themselves to try to define and discredit some leaders in the African American community. If you recall, back in December 2002 I wrote a column expressing my concern about several leaders in our community. I said that I didn't feel comfortable with any one person saying that he or she speaks for the African American community. In that column I listed several people whom I felt were doing just that, speaking for the entire Black community. The Star Tribune and Rybak seem to feel as though they can do the same by criticizing some of the leaders of our community. The Star Tribune (AKA the ***Rybak Times***) and Rybak have spent a great deal of time discussing Black leadership, and in some cases even trying to define Black leadership, without defining White leadership. Once Rybak and the ***Rybak Times*** define the White leadership and show us the White leader, maybe I can show them the Black leader. Who is the leader of White people? Is it Robert Lilligren, Paul Ostrow, Tim Pawlenty, or R.T. Rybek? When these White people speak, are they speaking on behalf of all White people? Of course they aren't, so why is it that when Spike Moss, Reverend Staten, or Reverend Jerry McAfee speak, White people assume that they are speaking on behalf of all Black people? Spike, Reverend Staten, and Reverend McAfee champion some good causes, and in most cases I am confident that they are speaking in the best interest of Black people. Some Black people, including myself, have criticized these individuals in the past for speaking for us without consulting some other Blacks outside of their leadership organizations. It seems to me that Mayor Rybak and the ***Rybak Times*** didn't have any problems with these individuals until they started speaking for a united Black people. Once these individuals showed up at the Minneapolis School Board with the support of many organizations of color and White people, they got the attention of Rybak and the ***Rybak Times***. R.T. Rybak and the ***Rybak Times*** saw fit to try to discredit these individuals once they realized that they were representing a united people of color. Rybak basically called these individuals non-authentic community leaders who just show up when the camera is rolling. Well, if these individuals are non-authentic, who needs to authenticate them? Is it me? Is it you? Is it R.T. Rybak? Everyone knows that I have not agreed with these individuals all the time, but let me say this: When they took on the appointment of David Jenkins as superintendent, I agreed with them. So I guess I can say that they were speaking for me when they took on that issue. More than likely I will disagree with these individuals in the future, but I will always side with them over our cowardly mayor and his newspaper. Now let's talk about Stephen Porter, the alleged victim of a plunging at the hands of the Minneapolis Police Department. Porter alleges that during a drug raid he was strip-searched and sodomized with a plunger four times by two Minneapolis police officers. Police, of course, deny these allegations. Police say that Porter is a drug dealer with a history of concealing contraband in his rectum, and that is why he was strip-searched during the drug raid. People keep writing to ask me what I think happened. Well, I want to reserve judgment until all the facts are known, but to me there are only three possibilities. One, the police didn't sodomize Porter with a plunger. Two, Mr. Porter was sodomized four times with a plunger. Three, the police officers used the plunger to spread and rake Porter's anus because they didn't want to stick their hands in his butt. If the allegations are true, these officers should be sent to prison; if they are not true, Porter should be punished. The ***Rybak Times*** put Mr. Porter's life in danger when they identified him as a police informant, and they successfully shifted the focus to Porter as opposed to the egregious allegations. Lastly, Channel 5 reported that complaints of police brutality have declined over the last couple of years. I say the reason for the decline is because there is no place to file complaints. If you want to file a complaint with the CRA or the Civil Rights Department, you have to go to Marshall Fields, because the staff members are constantly shopping there during business hours. Besides, nothing will get done with your complaint anyway. I wish the news media would report the complete story. Note to the ***Rybak Times***: please stop plagiarizing this wonderful newspaper. ***If you are being abused or know someone who is being abused, you can call the following numbers: Harriet Tubman Center, 612-825-; Domestic
Re: [Mpls] Who Speaks for White People?
Booker Hodges wrote: Booker T Investigates Minnesota Spokesman-Recorder Published 10-29-03 Who speaks for White people? Why don't you ask them? :-) Who is the leader of White people? Is it Robert Lilligren, Paul Ostrow, Tim Pawlenty, or R.T. Rybek? When these White people speak, are they speaking on behalf of all White people? Of course they aren't, so why is it that when Spike Moss, Reverend Staten, or Reverend Jerry McAfee speak, White people assume that they are speaking on behalf of all Black people? Spike, Reverend Staten, and Reverend McAfee champion some good causes, and in most cases I am confident that they are speaking in the best interest of Black people. Some Black people, including myself, have criticized these individuals in the past for speaking for us without consulting some other Blacks outside of their leadership organizations. It seems to me that Mayor Rybak and the ***Rybak Times*** didn't have any problems with these individuals until they started speaking for a united Black people. Once these individuals showed up at the Minneapolis School Board with the support of many organizations of color and White people, they got the attention of Rybak and the ***Rybak Times***. R.T. Rybak and the ***Rybak Times*** saw fit to try to discredit these individuals once they realized that they were representing a united people of color. Rybak basically called these individuals non-authentic community leaders who just show up when the camera is rolling. Well, if these individuals are non-authentic, who needs to authenticate them? Is it me? Is it you? Is it R.T. Rybak? No, we'll just leave it to identity politics and their practitioners, the social justice ideologues. As with Al Sharpton, C. Vernon Mason, Alton Maddox, William Kunstler, and Sonny Carson in New York City during the 1980's and 1990's, if all goes according to plan, we'll have a Republican mayor in Minneapolis. Neal Krasnoff Loring Park REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Who Speaks for White People?
Okay, I'll take the bait! Surely though, I am not the only one who is curious to know: 1) What is the plan that Mr. Krasnoff refers to? 2) Who might this republican be? The traditional Republican party that once thrived in Minneapolis and produced some outstanding council members (Barbra Carlson, Walter Rockenstein, Charlee Hoyt, Arne Carlson (later, Gov. Arne Carlson) Gladys Brooks, Dick Erdall among others) and legislators (Bill Dean was the last of them, 23 years ago) and other public officials (Mary Doty, library board; Patty Baker, park board; Lyle Schwarzkopf, city coordinator) no longer exits. The arty that once played a vital role in both the history and the future of Minneapolis is now largely a right wing cabal that dislikes cities and the people that live in them and has no real empathy or solutions for people who are not exactly like them. The party that once talked about harnessing the economic, moral, and intellectual power of the community to identify problems and find creative solutions now babbles incessantly about the evils of government and actively encourages an I've Got Mine, Now Get The Hell Away From Me attitude. To repeat: what's the plan and whose the candidate(s)??? Jim Bernstein Fulton -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Neal Krasnoff Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 11:21 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Mpls] Who Speaks for White People? Booker Hodges wrote: Booker T Investigates Minnesota Spokesman-Recorder Published 10-29-03 Who speaks for White people? Why don't you ask them? :-) Who is the leader of White people? Is it Robert Lilligren, Paul Ostrow, Tim Pawlenty, or R.T. Rybek? When these White people speak, are they speaking on behalf of all White people? Of course they aren't, so why is it that when Spike Moss, Reverend Staten, or Reverend Jerry McAfee speak, White people assume that they are speaking on behalf of all Black people? Spike, Reverend Staten, and Reverend McAfee champion some good causes, and in most cases I am confident that they are speaking in the best interest of Black people. Some Black people, including myself, have criticized these individuals in the past for speaking for us without consulting some other Blacks outside of their leadership organizations. It seems to me that Mayor Rybak and the ***Rybak Times*** didn't have any problems with these individuals until they started speaking for a united Black people. Once these individuals showed up at the Minneapolis School Board with the support of many organizations of color and White people, they got the attention of Rybak and the ***Rybak Times***. R.T. Rybak and the ***Rybak Times*** saw fit to try to discredit these individuals once they realized that they were representing a united people of color. Rybak basically called these individuals non-authentic community leaders who just show up when the camera is rolling. Well, if these individuals are non-authentic, who needs to authenticate them? Is it me? Is it you? Is it R.T. Rybak? No, we'll just leave it to identity politics and their practitioners, the social justice ideologues. As with Al Sharpton, C. Vernon Mason, Alton Maddox, William Kunstler, and Sonny Carson in New York City during the 1980's and 1990's, if all goes according to plan, we'll have a Republican mayor in Minneapolis. Neal Krasnoff Loring Park REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Who Speaks for White People? Who is White?
While I have in the past been very much been in accord with some of Booker Hodges' posts (particularly those on abuse and discrimination), I am troubled by this last one about White Leadership for a couple of reasons. There really is NO white leadership that speaks for anyone. If anyone said he or she was a White Leader he or she would surely be crucified for being a racist, fascist, or Klu Klux Klan'er. People are not allowed to be white leaders, to advocate for white people, or be concerned about civil rights issues for white people. It is why poor white trash are left out of almost anything going on and probably one of the most discriminated groups in this country. Secondly, exactly what are white people? I contend there are very, very, few of them. Almost all White People are some shade of something off of white. I am sure there are some first generation Swedes and such around, but darn few. All the rest are some shade off of white. (Some are dismayed to find this out). An equally amazing thing is that there are some people of color who are more white than White People. If we are talking instead about Power and establishment inclusion, then is a wealthy Afro-American person with heavy political connections automatically bleached into Whitedom? With the same thought is the poor Euro-person from Arkansas, Mississippi, or Tennessee, (or Minneapolis) automatically a person of color? Booker's list of Who is the leader of White People is indicative of this problem. He lists Robert Lillegren as a the first mentioned White Leader. Perhaps Booker is unaware that Robert Lillegren is the first American Indian City Council Member in the history of Minneapolis? I have heard it said that the City needed Don Samuels because the Council previously had only one person of color in Natalie. My question is, What color is a person of color? What about Robert Lillegren? Of course I have also heard that Don really does not represent a Black person. Exactly what color is Don? Or is Robert? Is is starting to sound like a question of brother Bill Clinton. It reminds me of the time PPL, Basim Sabri, and Basim's minions apparently attempted to illegally seize control of my neighborhood. Afterwards Basim and his minions wrote on list how only white people voted against them. The funny thing was they instantly made several Black neighborhood activists, as well as some Palestinians into Whites. They also overlooked many American Indian people in the room. The next month there was a joke among some Native people about Do Indians have to wear feathers to be Indian in Minneapolis? While it was humorous, it does point out the problem. It also reminds me of the Bad old days when if you were anything other than defined White you were one of thosecoloreds. It would seem the circle is sadly becoming complete, if now you are not agreeing with me or Black, then you are one of those Whites. I bet somewhere there may be some powerless poor European- Americans asking themselves when they will have the opportunity to be White. We must all be careful. The one equal opportunity thing in this (sometimes stupid) world is the opportunity to engage in discrimination and prejudice. We live in a self created conflict. In defeat we dream of the pleasure of our will on others. In victory and power we will find little consolation. We continue to gaze upon the bodies of the raped How many generations until we see they are our bodies? See that our follies of today are preludes to tomorrow The sermon is ended for the day, go in peace Jim Graham, Ventura Village We can only be what we give ourselves the power to be - A Cherokee Feast of Days REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Who Speaks for White People?
Jim Bernstein wrote: Okay, I'll take the bait! Surely though, I am not the only one who is curious to know: 1) What is the plan that Mr. Krasnoff refers to? 2) Who might this republican be? Let me put it another way: the social justice wing of Minneapolis politics will dig itself into their own hole. What has been missing is a couple of store boycotts, a race riot (read: Crown Heights), and at least one radical leftist attorney. Mr. Bernstein should read about what New York City was like during the hey-day of the Rev. Sharpton and the likes of the December 12th Movement. To repeat: what's the plan and whose the candidate(s)??? Please don't be too paranoid. There's no cabal or conspiracy. Just inevitable self-fufilling prophecy if the enablers are allowed to continue. Hopefully, they will be discredited in time, along with whatever organizations give support to any further attempts to harm civil society in Minneapolis. Neal Krasnoff Loring Park REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Who Speaks for White People?
I am not sure that this question was first asked by Rybak, the Strib or even white people in general. For many years, it seems everyone just figured that Moss, Staten, Edwards and McAfee spoke for the African American Community because they were the only ones who were speaking up loudly and frequently. When something happened, they were in the front row. When the cameras went on, they were in front of them. Then other African Americans started getting the spotlight, Natalie Johnson Lee and Don Samuels probably more than most. Shane Price certainly right up there. Add several less visable, but equally active, African American members in the community, and we seem to have a shift in I'm not sure whether to call it power, attention, or dynamics, within the community. On Oct 17th at the meeting at Farview, one of the complaints I heard loud and clear, was the Revs Staten and McAfee chastising both the mayor and Samuels for not going to them when dealing with the African American community. Rev McAfee's parting words were, you want a meeting with us, call my secretary and then left. There were also accusations that since the Mayor didn't go to their meetings, he was not communicating with the community. We heard these same sentiments when Federal Mediation was the topic. I can certainly see why the question 'who speaks for the African American community?' would become an issue. If programs are to be developed, who in the Black community signs off on them? If grants are given out, who is worthy to get them? If issues need to be addressed, then who should set up the meeting? Which group or groups? Ane if one group is left out, then what? Aren't these questions that we have all heard? When Mr Hodges asks 'who speaks for white people?' he cites Rybak, Lilligren, Ostrow and Pawlenty. I find that interesting since they are all elected officials and therefore, can reasonably be said to have the formal mandate of at least the people who voted for them. I also found it interesting that he didn't mention Barb Johnson, Linda Higgins, Natalie Johnson Lee, or any woman at all in his examples, but that's another topic. In the meantime, who does speak for the African American community? It can't be everyone or else we will never come to any accord. On the other hand, it doesn't have to be just one person or group if (big IF) the people and groups are willing to work together and compromise. Anne McCandless Jordan REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Who Speaks for White People?
Anne McCandless wrote: I am not sure that this question was first asked by Rybak, the Strib or even white people in general. For many years, it seems everyone just figured that Moss, Staten, Edwards and McAfee spoke for the African American Community because they were the only ones who were speaking up loudly and frequently. When something happened, they were in the front row. When the cameras went on, they were in front of them. It's an interesting question who speaks for a given community. I think that the answer is simple: it's who the news media reports on. Which is often whoever speaks the loudest (or in some cases, who the media wants you to hear). Whether these individuals actually represent shared sentiments is debatable. Take neighborhood associations for example. They are often tapped by the media to speak for communities, but they represent only the voices of a few, often atypical, individuals. As in the case of minority communities, those quoted are often only those who show up and speak out. Maybe we should stop worrying about who's speaking and pay more attention to the veracity of their statements. Without a valid and unbiased poll I don't think that anyone should be claiming to speak for anyone other than themselves. That's the beauty of representative government: elected officials don't need to speak for anyone but themselves. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Who Speaks for White People?
Anne McCandless [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the meantime, who does speak for the African American community? Itcan't be everyone or else we will never come to any accord. On the otherhand, it doesn't have to be just one person or group if (big IF) the peopleand groups are willing to work together and compromise. IMHO, why is that question even asked? Why do we have to have a designee? Was it a conditionof the Emancipation Proclamation? If we have to have one, so shouldWhite people.What one accord have the White people come under except the virtue of their being white? No one took me seriously months ago when I stated that there should be a Summit on White People and their Issues. I was not being racist, I was dead serious. We always seem to have them about African-Americans and other communities of color, so turnabout is fair play. To me, every person of color who speaks their humble opinion is speaking for themselves. If it did not resonate with them they would not be talking about it. Some may have folks who agree with them, and the voice becomes louder. Sometimes they stand alone. Either way they are taking a stand. There are plenty of White people who, all by themselves, seem tocommand attention. Us, we have to have a coalition. Says who? And, please don't tell me that just because Rybek got elected he has the authority to speak for white people. All hedid was get lucky and won an election. And, as I recall, people other than White folks voted for him. And, there are plenty of people - white and otherwise - who are not thrilled with the words coming out of his mouth now. And,technically speaking, heis out of the running anyway as White designee because he was not voted upon by only the White community. Bottom line is this: Listen to what is being said, no matter what the color of thespeaker, and determine its relevance in regard to the issue at hand. Then act accordingly. I am pretty independent in words and action, that is to say, I am not one to simply follow the crowd because that is the way they are traveling. My parents taught me that being a critical thinker was one of the best assets I could ever have. I may never be rich, but my integrity -priceless. Pamela Taylor (Tampa) Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
Re: [Mpls] Who Speaks for White People?
Interesting that the reference to the Strib as The Rybak Times appears here when those who can remember back during the election, the Strib endorsed Sayles Belton over Rybak. But the matter begs the question that if the Black men mentioned here are not considered by enough of the African American community as it spokespersons, then where are the dissenters? The white men you mention are at odds with each other and say so - all the time. Of course, that is far more typical in human nature and politics than any one voice would ever be. So, Booker T. Tell those papers and other media what the dissenting view of Black leadership in Minneapolis amounts to, who the dissenting leadership or other voices and views might represent and why. It's a tough one, because just when the community wants or feels it needs to speak with one voice, the voices that step into the limelight are those the media pay attention to. Thus it has always been and thus it will ever be as long as no one steps forward to refute their views and advocacy positions. Andy Driscoll Saint Paul From: Booker Hodges [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 10:33:38 -0600 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Mpls] Who Speaks for White People? Booker T Investigates Minnesota Spokesman-Recorder Published 10-29-03 Who speaks for White people? Leadership in the African American community has been the hot topic of discussion of late. The Star Tribune and Minneapolis Mayor R.T. Rybak have taken it upon themselves to try to define and discredit some leaders in the African American community. If you recall, back in December 2002 I wrote a column expressing my concern about several leaders in our community. I said that I didn't feel comfortable with any one person saying that he or she speaks for the African American community. In that column I listed several people whom I felt were doing just that, speaking for the entire Black community. The Star Tribune and Rybak seem to feel as though they can do the same by criticizing some of the leaders of our community. The Star Tribune (AKA the ***Rybak Times***) and Rybak have spent a great deal of time discussing Black leadership, and in some cases even trying to define Black leadership, without defining White leadership. Once Rybak and the ***Rybak Times*** define the White leadership and show us the White leader, maybe I can show them the Black leader. Who is the leader of White people? Is it Robert Lilligren, Paul Ostrow, Tim Pawlenty, or R.T. Rybek? When these White people speak, are they speaking on behalf of all White people? Of course they aren't, so why is it that when Spike Moss, Reverend Staten, or Reverend Jerry McAfee speak, White people assume that they are speaking on behalf of all Black people? Spike, Reverend Staten, and Reverend McAfee champion some good causes, and in most cases I am confident that they are speaking in the best interest of Black people. Some Black people, including myself, have criticized these individuals in the past for speaking for us without consulting some other Blacks outside of their leadership organizations. It seems to me that Mayor Rybak and the ***Rybak Times*** didn't have any problems with these individuals until they started speaking for a united Black people. Once these individuals showed up at the Minneapolis School Board with the support of many organizations of color and White people, they got the attention of Rybak and the ***Rybak Times***. R.T. Rybak and the ***Rybak Times*** saw fit to try to discredit these individuals once they realized that they were representing a united people of color. Rybak basically called these individuals non-authentic community leaders who just show up when the camera is rolling. Well, if these individuals are non-authentic, who needs to authenticate them? Is it me? Is it you? Is it R.T. Rybak? Everyone knows that I have not agreed with these individuals all the time, but let me say this: When they took on the appointment of David Jenkins as superintendent, I agreed with them. So I guess I can say that they were speaking for me when they took on that issue. More than likely I will disagree with these individuals in the future, but I will always side with them over our cowardly mayor and his newspaper. Now let's talk about Stephen Porter, the alleged victim of a plunging at the hands of the Minneapolis Police Department. Porter alleges that during a drug raid he was strip-searched and sodomized with a plunger four times by two Minneapolis police officers. Police, of course, deny these allegations. Police say that Porter is a drug dealer with a history of concealing contraband in his rectum, and that is why he was strip-searched during the drug raid. People keep writing to ask me what I think happened. Well, I want to reserve judgment until all the facts are known, but to me there are only three possibilities. One, the police didn't sodomize Porter
