RE: [Mpls] Abstention fever
There is a difference of opinion on the issue of Roberts' Rules automatic updating of revisions. Russell Peterson wrote Do we know which version is tied to the Minneapolis City Council? and Brian Melendez wrote The Minneapolis City Council's rules (Rule 20) provide that the rules of parliamentary practice, embraced in Robert's Rules of Order, Revised, shall govern the council in all cases to which they are applicable and in which they are not inconsistent with these rules. The Council therefore follows the current (tenth) edition, and its rules are automatically updated when a new edition appears. I've always advised cities that revisions/future amendments are not automatically included when something is adopted by reference. Of course, when Roberts' is amended, the city can simply adopt the revised version by ordinance. This conservative an approach follows state statute § 471.62, Statutes or rules may be adopted by reference. The Attorney General has consistently opined that future amendments to the building code are not automatically incorporated, and I do not see a meaningful distinction between the building code and Roberts' Rules that would justify ignoring this principle for Roberts'. The AG opinions are: A uniform building code could be adapted by a village by incorporating it by reference in a city ordinance, however additional amendments of the code would be required to incorporate by subsequent separate ordinance. Op.Atty.Gen., 59a-9, July 18, 1967. Charter city cannot incorporate in city charter future amendments of a statute. Op.Atty.Gen., 59-A-11, Jan. 22, 1957. City cannot enact an ordinance adopting by reference future amendments of a national building code. Op.Atty.Gen., 59-A-9, March 27, 1956. The Minnesota Administrative Procedure Act also requires that materials adopted by reference should include a specific date reference, which would also seem to preclude automatic adoption of future revisions. sec. 14.07. It makes sense when you consider Roberts' Rules revisions are not subject to public comment/review. Neal Blanchett Lynnhurst ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Abstention fever
Thanks Brain for the detail. Just a note that I was quoting from the original version of Robert's Rules of Order. I know it is fashionable to us the Newly Revised version. Do we know which version is tied to the Minneapolis City Council? Most organizations cite the particular version as to not create confusion - I should have done the same. My version in section 44, does not contain the word abstention. In the end, however, I believe my analysis was correct that the vote did pass by a wide majority according the the rules in place, unless somebody has some other knowledge of operations that I am still missing. And even though you cannot force someone to vote, it is still in my opinion according to Robert's Rules that the only real reason to abstain is for conflict of interest. R u s s e l l W. P e t e r s o n Saint Michael, Minnesota [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can only fly if you stretch your wings. ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Abstention fever
Lee Schneider wrote: I have watched Mr. Atherton tirades for a while now. And his comments that DFL wants the Greens out of office is plain absurd! ti-rade (tirad, ti-rad)n. A long angry or violent speech, usually of a censorious or denunciatory nature; a diatribe.[French, from Old French, act of firing, from tirer, to draw out, endure, probably back-formation from martirant, present participle of martirer, to torture (influenced by mar, to one's misfortune,, tiranz, executioner, tyrant), from martir, martyr, from Late Latin martyr. See MARTYR.] - Excerpted from American Heritage Talking Dictionary Copyright © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved. While I might agree that some of my posts, especially those on education, maybe angry or denunciatory, I don't believe that they are violent or censorious. Sometimes the truth is ugly and hurtful. If I were a Black parent with a child in the ninth grade who could not read would my posts be labeled as tirades or righteous indignation? I have been willing to discuss the ethics of calling for early elections, but no one, including you, seems to want to participate in that discussion. And, no one seems to be willing to discuss which party early elections would favor. If you would like to talk about something that is plain absurd, why don't we discuss why the DFL controlled city council has never passed ordinances allowing for the recall of councilmembers? Or we might also discuss the fact that the individuals posting in support of early elections, you, Ms. Khan, Mr. Brauer, and Mr. Melendez are stanch DFL supporters. I believe that your party is more interested in holding on to power than in helping the people it professes to represent. Why is it that my overwhelmingly DFL neighborhood can set up a fund to move affordable housing elsewhere, rather than promote it in their own neighborhood? What are the ethics of that action? The answer to that question is one reason why a conservative would vote and support the Green party, and why the DFL is losing elections. Michael Atherton Prospect Park ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Abstention fever
Michael writes: The answer to that question is one reason why a conservative would vote and support the Green party, and why the DFL is losing elections. But wait! If the DFL is losing elections, why is Rep. Kahn's change that forces an additional round of elections pro-DFL? This has always been the illogic in Michael's argument; there is nothing built-in that favors the DFL. In fact, his argument is quite patronizing to the Greens, since he assumes they would be steamrollered by the DFL in '03. Based on their last showing, the Minneapolis Green Party could more quickly gain seats more quickly if elections are held in '03 rather than '05. Who's to say their gains wouldn't be expanded, rather than reversed? Certainly, Michael presents no logical reason or evidence the Greens would retreat. So says this so-called staunch DFLer (who did not vote a straight party ticket in '01, by the way...) David Brauer King Field - Ward 10 _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Abstention fever
Michael Atherton wrote: The answer to that question is one reason why a conservative would vote and support the Green party, and why the DFL is losing elections. I have to believe that an election in ought-three would favor the Greens more than the DFL, if for no other reason than the greater the distance between trips to the polls the greater the chance for lost momentum. More importantly, it seems pretty cut and dried that if the boundries are redrawn in such a way that a segment of the population is no longer represented at City Hall, then you need to have a new election. However, since the boundaries could theoretically change every ten years, and elections are currently held every four years, then this problem could reoccur at pretty regular intervals (if an election is held in '03, then in '07, then in '11 you are right back to square one if the '10 census dictates another change). One way to really keep things consistent would be to reduce the number of wards to say six, making the areas large enough that the census would be less likely to skew them, and elect (in this case seven) at-large Council Members, or (and this would be the better choice IMHO) reduce the Council terms from 4 years to 2 years and run the elections concurrent with congressional elections. Just a thought, richard carney st. paul ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Abstention fever
Precisely! Andy Driscoll Saint Paul -- The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who, in times of moral crisis, remain neutral --Dante From: David Brauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] But wait! If the DFL is losing elections, why is Rep. Kahn's change that forces an additional round of elections pro-DFL? This has always been the illogic in Michael's argument; there is nothing built-in that favors the DFL. In fact, his argument is quite patronizing to the Greens, since he assumes they would be steamrollered by the DFL in '03. Based on their last showing, the Minneapolis Green Party could more quickly gain seats more quickly if elections are held in '03 rather than '05. Who's to say their gains wouldn't be expanded, rather than reversed? Certainly, Michael presents no logical reason or evidence the Greens would retreat. So says this so-called staunch DFLer (who did not vote a straight party ticket in '01, by the way...) David Brauer King Field - Ward 10 ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Abstention fever/budget candidate's full term
In a message dated 2/4/02 10:37:11 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have to believe that an election in ought-three would favor the Greens more than the DFL, if for no other reason than the greater the distance between trips to the polls the greater the chance for lost momentum. Elections, for non-Machine challengers, may be compared to rolling the dice. The DFL Machine has a large wad of Council Members/Currency in it's pinstripe pocket. Win a few, lose a few, the DFL machine still rules ober alles. The other council members, whom I shall identify as the independents, have just pocket change of political currency to wager, and could be out of office before the dice get warm. If you were elected for a term, serve that term. Keith Reitman, We Fought for Change/NearNorth ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Abstention fever/budget candidate's full term
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 20:26:50 EST . . . The DFL Machine has a large wad of Council Members/Currency in it's pinstripe pocket. . . . Keith Reitman Well, I wish someone would tell me where that pocket is! As Treasurer of the City DFL, I just filed a report that shows us still $8,000 in debt from the recent election cycle. So whoever has those wads of currency, please pass them along to me. ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Abstention fever
I have watched Mr. Atherton tirades for a while now. And his comments that DFL wants the Greens out of office is plain absurd! Personally, I would not want to vote for a specific council person in my ward and then find out 6 months later that I don't live in that ward anymore due to redistricting. Having a council person that I, DID NOT, elect. The problem being that you old council person follows the new ward boundary's while you new one doesn't, causing you to in a sense have NO respentation! I do think it was a good idea to go from 2yr terms to 4yr terms, but they could have had put the elections in years ending in 3 and 7 instead of years ending in 1 and 5. I have said my peace and now need to get some sleep! Lee --- Michael Atherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: message snipped--- Well so much for convention, instead let's talk about ethics and fair play. The Greens won fair and square and now the DFL wants to get them out of office anyway they can; as in forcing early elections. I suppose that is the convention: politics by any means necessary. All I can say is I sure hope I can find a job that gets me out of this state. Louisiana might be an improvement. Michael Atherton Prospect Park message snipped Lee J Schneider New STP resident Formerly Standish/Ericsson - MPLS Currently Sheboygan, WI (family) __ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Abstention fever
David Brauer wrote: Your fence-sitters are: Sandy Colvin Roy, Dean Zimmermann, Robert Lilligren, Natalie Johnson Lee and Joe Biernat. Imagine my surprise seeing Sandy Colvin Roy on this list. That's right, none. It almost makes me ready to support Phyllis Kahn's 2003 election proposal. Walt Cygan Keewaydin ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Abstention fever
Walt Cygan wrote: David Brauer wrote: Your fence-sitters are: Sandy Colvin Roy, Dean Zimmermann, Robert Lilligren, Natalie Johnson Lee and Joe Biernat. Imagine my surprise seeing Sandy Colvin Roy on this list. That's right, none. It almost makes me ready to support Phyllis Kahn's 2003 election proposal. The conventional (and ethical) way to remove council members you are unhappy with is by recall election, not a contrived special election initiated by legislative manipulation in local politics. Michael Atherton Prospect Park ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Abstention fever
Michael Atherton wrote, The conventional (and ethical) way to remove council members you are unhappy with is by recall election . . . . As far as I know, Minneapolis city officers are not subject to recall elections. State law allows a city to provide in its charter for the recall of any elective municipal officer and for removal of the officer by vote of the electors of such city (Minnesota Statutes sec. 410.20), but the Minneapolis City Charter does not contain such a provision. BRM Brian Melendez St. Anthony West (Ward 3) ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Abstention fever
Melendez, Brian wrote: Michael Atherton wrote, The conventional (and ethical) way to remove council members you are unhappy with is by recall election . . . . As far as I know, Minneapolis city officers are not subject to recall elections. State law allows a city to provide in its charter for the recall of any elective municipal officer and for removal of the officer by vote of the electors of such city (Minnesota Statutes sec. 410.20), but the Minneapolis City Charter does not contain such a provision. Well so much for convention, instead let's talk about ethics and fair play. The Greens won fair and square and now the DFL wants to get them out of office anyway they can; as in forcing early elections. I suppose that is the convention: politics by any means necessary. All I can say is I sure hope I can find a job that gets me out of this state. Louisiana might be an improvement. Michael Atherton Prospect Park ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
