Re: How to send a return receipt
On Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 08:55:07PM -0400, Derek Martin wrote: Just because you know when somebody has seen a mail 1st time, it doesn't mean it will be processed faster thereafter. This is not why return receipts exist. They exist so that the receiver can say, I know you saw my e-mail, I have the return receipt. It's about accountability... it's the same Then you don’t want a delivery notfication, you want read-it notification. That is in my eyes a very big difference. A delivery notification will send you the information when the MTA has put the mail into the mbox of the recipient (no matter, if the recipient will sent your mail to /dev/null or read it). reason the post office offers registered/certified mail. Mail (both This is a delivery notification. You don’t know, if the recipient has read the letter or through it away. The MUA is the wrong place for a delivery notification. The notification will always be sent a certain time later (sometimes less, more often much later). Mutt does not have return receipt support. Let me emphasize that: Yes, in my eyes this is good. Like always if certain features for surveillance or monitoring are available, people want to use it. So it is far better to not implement them. And in business environments you will probably get in far more trouble with mutt besides missing the notification options. Mutt doesn’t support any groupware features like calendar. Shade and sweet water! Stephan -- | Stephan SeitzE-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | PGP Public Keys: http://fsing.rootsland.net/~stse/pgp.html | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: How to send a return receipt
On Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 05:15:10PM +0200, Rado S wrote: Before we (you or I) can judge what is harm- or useful to mutt, we both would have to know 1st what mutt is about. I don't know it (yet), do you? I don't think that the term 'harmful' needs an explination in whats mutt about. Harmful is what affects mutt in any negative way. Thats not about philosophy, but about technical matters. A mailer for freaks and nerds == willing to adjust it to personal needs rather than relying on (hardcoded) defaults; to use it for all We are not talking about defaults. So this is pointless. Also adjusting something to someones personal needs is not implementing the whole feature, it is about setting some settings, like save-hooks, folder-hooks or whatever. mail needs, including business. So, if you want to use something for business you need to support the basic subset of funtionality that another mail client (already reliable used in business environments) supports as well. Nothing more, nothing less. Using mutt's power which it already provides before hardcoding features (mistaken as adding, because it is already possible). Arrgh. After about 100 mails about this topic (and with several _different_ posters describing to you the same thing) you have not understood that mutt does _not_ have the requested feature. probably not the missing killer feature which makes them not change to mutt so far. Thats not about converting business users to mutt users. It is about letting mutt users communicate with business users, sharing a basic subset of functionality. a) You're mistaken, there are requests to include a wide range of functionality into mutt that wasn't assumed to be part of mutt, so We are not talking about this, in _this_ discussion. But even if we would: Groupware Functionality is not comparable to Returen Receipits. See: While the first is supported by _every_ mua in the business environment, the latter is only supported by specialized clients (at least properly). As a groupware solution is normally a business-wide choice thats okay, while return receipts are common to the programs used by (almost) _every_ company. b) It is important to _you_, undoubtly I believe you, given your modus operandi, but still I take it as exception. Even among GUI No. It is not important to _me_. It is important, because it is wideley used in business environments and supported by _every_ mua used in business environments, which makes it potentially used, which makes it important if you want to communicate with other people having the feature. You can only make assumptions about how many use return receipts in the real world, so you cannot use numbers to figure who actually uses is and so you need to rely on the fact that it is there in every mua and _could_ be used. mail users I'm unsure people _willingly_ use that feature because they see a gain in their everyday usecase rather than being a preset default, not caring enough to change. Ehh. It is not a default. In _no_ known mail client. It is an opt-in feature. Always. Even if it could nag you with a message, you must not click Yes to send the message. non-automated environment they are rather annoying (to me, much like We are not talking about TOFU posting, so this is pointless. But if you feel annoyed by return receipts then don't use them. The good thing about this feature is, that you can choose on a case-by-case basis _or_ disable it at all. I cannot disable people, that are writing TOFU, to get back to your example. It's not that I don't want it to, but because users' demands are too different to be satisfied all by a single tool. Right. But if you can't support *everything* you should support the smallest supported subset + the things _you_ (as developer) want to support. are many piners out there. They're not using pine because of missing return-receipt support in mutt. Pine, for example, includes news It is not of any interest why people use pine over mutt, or thunderbird or outlook. As long as mutt doesn't offer that, people using those tools for exactly those features won't switch to mutt until mutt does so, too. Then let them. They have the free choice, but in _this_ case you decide for them that mutt isn't the mua of their cause, because you are denying to add support for a feature that is shared among all other mua arround. Heh, wrong, I have the same intention to provide required functionality (like your return-receipts automation), but I see them already achieved while you don't like the way of doing it. It isn't that I don't like the way of doing it. It is _not_ supported. I have to built it from ground up my self. Thats different compared to every other feature in mutt. E.g. save-hooks: I don't need to implement the logic for save-hooks to work, but only appropriate configuration for them. Huh, what does completely separate config mean when you use muttrc settings + commands? I can't. Except a macro nothing of
Re: How to send a return receipt
On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 03:37:45PM +0200, Patrick Schoenfeld wrote: No. It is not important to _me_. It is important, because it is wideley used in business environments and supported by _every_ mua used in business environments, which makes it potentially used, which makes it important if you want to communicate with other people having the feature. You can only make assumptions about how many use return Say, like HTML mails, vCards, vacation messages, address books? Nothing of this sort is supported by mutt but relies on external programs. Shade and sweet water! Stephan -- | Stephan SeitzE-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | PGP Public Keys: http://fsing.rootsland.net/~stse/pgp.html | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: How to send a return receipt
Am 2007-10-11 11:28:46, schrieb David Champion: This is correct. Mutt doesn't internally support MDNs. A patch has been posted by Werner Koch, but it might not be current. Check the mutt-dev archives. Does this only mean, sending of MDN's or receiving? I use mutt from Debian and sometimes it ask me whethere I want to send the confimation back... Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Tamay Dogan Network -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: How to send a return receipt
On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 11:46:26AM -0400, Derek Martin wrote: Yes, in my eyes this is good. Like always if certain features for surveillance or monitoring are available, people want to use it. So it is far better to not implement them. You did know that Mutt is one of the most configurable mail clients in existence, and lets you turn off features you don't want to use, didn't you? I know this. But if your boss asks you, if your client can do MDNs and if yes, you must activate it, it is far easier to say, no, it can not do this. I have used Mutt in every business environment I've worked in for the I am using Mutt in my business environment, too. But we don’t do things like MDNs (sending or answering). We don’t send HTML mails, too. Shade and sweet water! Stephan -- | Stephan SeitzE-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | PGP Public Keys: http://fsing.rootsland.net/~stse/pgp.html | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: How to send a return receipt
On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 06:20:41PM +0200, Stephan Seitz wrote: I know this. But if your boss asks you, if your client can do MDNs and if yes, you must activate it, it is far easier to say, no, it can not do this. If your boss is going to ask you that question, then the next thing out of is mouth is going to be Use Outlook. This is not a valid concern. Just compile it without support and truthfully say no.' And then wait for the punch line... -- Derek D. Martinhttp://www.pizzashack.org/ GPG Key ID: 0xDFBEAD02 -=-=-=-=- This message is posted from an invalid address. Replying to it will result in undeliverable mail due to spam prevention. Sorry for the inconvenience. pgpC1oHS5KrPh.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: How to send a return receipt
On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 06:20:41PM +0200, Stephan Seitz wrote: I know this. But if your boss asks you, if your client can do MDNs and if yes, you must activate it, it is far easier to say, no, it can not do this. I don't believe that a boss that *asks* weither your MUA supports something that *he* finds worth using is typical. Most of them (bosses) will either force you to use a specific application or force you to use an application that supports what *he* wants to use. I am using Mutt in my business environment, too. But we don’t do things like MDNs (sending or answering). We don’t send HTML mails, too. Fine for you. But this isn't about what you don't do, but about what others do. You know that not everybody has the same needs and so this I don't use argument is more then invalid. Regards, Patrick
Re: How to send a return receipt
On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 04:39:55PM +0200, Stephan Seitz wrote: Say, like HTML mails, vCards, vacation messages, address books? Nothing of this sort is supported by mutt but relies on external programs. HTML mails, hmm. Bad thing. I don't like, nor do I write them myself, but receiving them (because some suppliers think they don't have to follow my wish if I ask them to not do so) is very uncomfortable in mutt. But its just that. Whereas I repeatedly explained why an external application does not work for return receipts. It does not very good for HTML mails, but it at least _does_. I don't know what you mean by vCards, because I never got one. But if it is featured by _every_ mail client in business environments then it should probably be supported. Vacation Messages are common and comfortable to be used on MDA or even MTA-level so i don't care for them (even in the Microsoft world it seems to be common to implement vacation messages there). And mutt features an addressbook in form of aliases. BTW. this whole discussion again does not have anything to do, with what this all is about. -Patrick
Re: Updating to Ubuntu Gutsy no longer shows message counts
On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 09:54:30AM +0300, Petteri wrote: After upgrading my laptop from Feisty to Gutsy today when I get a list of mailboxes (c-?-tab) it shows all my subscribed mail boxes but with zero counts. Debian had similar problem couple of months ago, but it was fixed. Don't know if its related to yours, but you could always try building you package from debians (unstable) sources and see if that helps. Changelog of the fix (http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/m/mutt/mutt_1.5.16-3/changelog): mutt (1.5.16-3) unstable; urgency=medium * Fix the maildir-mtime patch change in 1.5.14+cvs20070403-1 that broke new mail message count in IMAP folders. (Closes: #421468, #428734, #433275) Huh. Well, I first downloaded source via Mercurial: hg clone http://dev.mutt.org/hg/mutt and built with ./prepare --enable-imap --with-ssl --prefix=$HOME/mutt That version shows the counts, but then they disappear after viewing again. Now, I'm not entirely clear that it's picking up any my system config since the colors are not what I normally see -- so maybe that might be effecting thing. I then grabbed the Debian source form a machine I'm running and it looks like all debian patches are applies: $ apt-get source mutt Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree... Done Need to get 3633kB of source archives. Get:1 http://http.us.debian.org unstable/main mutt 1.5.16-3 (dsc) [960B] Get:2 http://http.us.debian.org unstable/main mutt 1.5.16-3 (tar) [3535kB] Get:3 http://http.us.debian.org unstable/main mutt 1.5.16-3 (diff) [97.0kB] Fetched 3633kB in 46s (77.5kB/s) gpg: Signature made Thu 19 Jul 2007 03:05:11 PM PDT using DSA key ID 170C44DD gpg: Can't check signature: public key not found dpkg-source: extracting mutt in mutt-1.5.16 dpkg-source: unpacking mutt_1.5.16.orig.tar.gz dpkg-source: applying ./mutt_1.5.16-3.diff.gz and then built with: ./configure --enable-imap --with-ssl --prefix=$HOME/mutt make install but there the counts were *never* shown. So, I'm a bit baffled considering that the debian/changelog does indeed have the message you quoted above. What else can I try? Should I post to mutt-dev list? -- Bill Moseley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Updating to Ubuntu Gutsy no longer shows message counts
Bill Moseley kirjoitti ma 22. lokakuuta 2007 12:21:15: On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 09:54:30AM +0300, Petteri wrote: After upgrading my laptop from Feisty to Gutsy today when I get a list of mailboxes (c-?-tab) it shows all my subscribed mail boxes but with zero counts. Debian had similar problem couple of months ago, but it was fixed. Don't know if its related to yours, but you could always try building you package from debians (unstable) sources and see if that helps. Changelog of the fix (http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/m/mutt/mutt_1.5.16-3/changelog): mutt (1.5.16-3) unstable; urgency=medium * Fix the maildir-mtime patch change in 1.5.14+cvs20070403-1 that broke new mail message count in IMAP folders. (Closes: #421468, #428734, #433275) Huh. Well, I first downloaded source via Mercurial: hg clone http://dev.mutt.org/hg/mutt and built with ./prepare --enable-imap --with-ssl --prefix=$HOME/mutt That version shows the counts, but then they disappear after viewing again. Now, I'm not entirely clear that it's picking up any my system config since the colors are not what I normally see -- so maybe that might be effecting thing. I then grabbed the Debian source form a machine I'm running and it looks like all debian patches are applies: $ apt-get source mutt Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree... Done Need to get 3633kB of source archives. Get:1 http://http.us.debian.org unstable/main mutt 1.5.16-3 (dsc) [960B] Get:2 http://http.us.debian.org unstable/main mutt 1.5.16-3 (tar) [3535kB] Get:3 http://http.us.debian.org unstable/main mutt 1.5.16-3 (diff) [97.0kB] Fetched 3633kB in 46s (77.5kB/s) gpg: Signature made Thu 19 Jul 2007 03:05:11 PM PDT using DSA key ID 170C44DD gpg: Can't check signature: public key not found dpkg-source: extracting mutt in mutt-1.5.16 dpkg-source: unpacking mutt_1.5.16.orig.tar.gz dpkg-source: applying ./mutt_1.5.16-3.diff.gz and then built with: ./configure --enable-imap --with-ssl --prefix=$HOME/mutt make install but there the counts were *never* shown. So, I'm a bit baffled considering that the debian/changelog does indeed have the message you quoted above. I'm using Debian unstable and I'm see the counts. Strange. What else can I try? Don't know. Maybe you should just file a bug report to Ubuntu. -- ___. / \ .___ Y/|\ | 0 o / /|\Y '^^V /|\ 'v'^^'
Re: Updating to Ubuntu Gutsy no longer shows message counts
On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 12:21:15PM -0700, Bill Moseley wrote: I then grabbed the Debian source form a machine I'm running and it looks like all debian patches are applies: $ apt-get source mutt snip dpkg-source: extracting mutt in mutt-1.5.16 dpkg-source: unpacking mutt_1.5.16.orig.tar.gz dpkg-source: applying ./mutt_1.5.16-3.diff.gz and then built with: ./configure --enable-imap --with-ssl --prefix=$HOME/mutt make install The debian mutt packages use quilt to apply patches. If you run “debuild -uc -us” to build the package you’ll see it apply the patches bit by bit. Running configure then make doesn’t run quilt. —Justin
Re: Updating to Ubuntu Gutsy no longer shows message counts
On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 04:17:16PM -0400, Justin Mazzola Paluska wrote: On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 12:21:15PM -0700, Bill Moseley wrote: I then grabbed the Debian source form a machine I'm running and it looks like all debian patches are applies: $ apt-get source mutt snip dpkg-source: extracting mutt in mutt-1.5.16 dpkg-source: unpacking mutt_1.5.16.orig.tar.gz dpkg-source: applying ./mutt_1.5.16-3.diff.gz and then built with: ./configure --enable-imap --with-ssl --prefix=$HOME/mutt make install The debian mutt packages use quilt to apply patches. If you run ???debuild -uc -us??? to build the package you???ll see it apply the patches bit by bit. Running configure then make doesn???t run quilt. ???Justin Ok, good to know. I assumed that dpkg-source: applying ./mutt_1.5.16-3.diff.gz indicated that the patches were being applied. I can't seem to run debuild on my Ubnutu system for the Debian package has dependencies that can't be met on Gutsy. And I don't have quilt on my Sid machine because, well, it's wedged (need to install libc6 but it depends on a newer kernel and I can't install a newer kernel because it depends on libc6...) Something I've been avoiding dealing with for a while. ;) I'm kind of surprised that the mutt checkout didn't solve the problem. -- Bill Moseley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Updating to Ubuntu Gutsy no longer shows message counts
On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 02:39:00PM -0700, Bill Moseley wrote: I can't seem to run debuild on my Ubnutu system for the Debian package has dependencies that can't be met on Gutsy. debbuild is a convenience wrapper around dpkg-buildpackage, so maybe dpkg-buildpackage is in Ubuntu. —Justin
553 spam source
A person I email often changed ISP. Since that change my emails to them come back with the error 553 spam source. This happened to one other person that I sent email, their address ended in @aol.com. I use msmtp, I have set envelope_from=yes, set from=[EMAIL PROTECTED], set use_from=yes in my .muttrc. My wife has windows machine running mozilla thunderbird windows version and her emails go to this person ok. Is there a way to fix this ? Tom
Asian fonts / xterm with Mutt
What kind of xterm do you folks use with Mutt to display correctly Asian fonts, Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc? I've the following Chinese (I think) fonts installed: zh-kcfonts, arphicfonts, jisx0213, unfonts I have install cxterm and when I try to run it I get: - Warning: Cannot convert string 8x16 to type FontStruct cxterm: unable to open font hanzigb16fs, trying cclib16st cxterm: unable to open font 8x16, trying the ugly fixed cxterm: unable to locate a suitable Chinese font - I don't need to input any of these fonts through the keyboard, but I would like them to display correctly on the xterm. Sometimes I use Internet translation engine to communicate with customers in China, so I just cut paste. xterm is build with +unicode support -- #Joseph GPG KeyID: ED0E1FB7
Re: 553 spam source
On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 06:57:13PM -0500, Tom wrote: A person I email often changed ISP. Since that change my emails to them come back with the error 553 spam source. This happened to one other person that I sent email, their address ended in @aol.com. I use msmtp, I have set envelope_from=yes, set from=[EMAIL PROTECTED], set use_from=yes in my .muttrc. My wife has windows machine running mozilla thunderbird windows version and her emails go to this person ok. Is there a way to fix this ? Tom I found the problem. I had set sendmail=/usr/bin/msmtp commented out in my .muttrc. Mutt was sending mails with something. It sent one to this list with the set sendmail commented out. The mails are going ok to the problem address with the set sendmail=/usr/bin/msmtp uncommented Tom
Re: Asian fonts / xterm with Mutt
On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 07:51:01PM -0600, Joseph wrote: What kind of xterm do you folks use with Mutt to display correctly Asian fonts, Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc? I use standard xterm, using a UTF-8 environment and the GNU universal unicode (iso-10646) fonts, but the Chinese character support in those fonts is a bit spotty (lots of rectangular boxes instead of hanja glyphs). You might be better off using gnome-terminal or konsole, which use the language-specific fonts in ways that I frankly don't understand. The key to displaying all of those languages simultaneously is UTF-8. Your locale should look something like this: $ locale LANG=en_US.UTF-8 LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 LC_NUMERIC=en_US.UTF-8 LC_TIME=en_US.UTF-8 LC_COLLATE=C LC_MONETARY=en_US.UTF-8 LC_MESSAGES=en_US.UTF-8 LC_PAPER=en_US.UTF-8 LC_NAME=en_US.UTF-8 LC_ADDRESS=en_US.UTF-8 LC_TELEPHONE=en_US.UTF-8 LC_MEASUREMENT=en_US.UTF-8 LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_US.UTF-8 LC_ALL= Using this, I can type Korean, Japanese, and Chinese (though I know very little Japanese, and almost no Chinese at all): いただきます！ (Itadakimasu!) 잘 먹으세요!(Jal Mogeuseyo!) 你好！ (Ni hao!) I can't tell you what packages to install to get this font on your OS though... since I don't know what it is, and since I can't even figure out which package I installed to get it on *my* distro... ^^; I can tell you, there are two particular fonts I have that display these characters, and I can tell you the font resources I use to get xterm to use them: XTerm*font: -misc-fixed-medium-r-semicondensed-*-13-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-* XTerm*font5: -Misc-Fixed-Medium-R-Normal--18-120-100-100-C-90-ISO10646-1 The first is a 7x13 font, which shows all of the characters I typed above, except for some reason the glyph for ni in ni hao is missing. The second is a 9x15 font that has all those glyphs, but is definitely missing a variety of chinese characters, as I have seen in the past. gnome-terminal and konsole use different mechanisms to figure out fonts. In so doing, they're able to use native fonts for each language/encoding, and from what I've seen have much better hanja support. When I use gnome-terminal under FC6, I don't have to do anything to get it to work... it just works. You need to have a modern distro with pango and such, IIUC. But like I said, on FC6, it just works. Still, I prefer xterm, because generally the fonts (at least the Korean glyphs and latin characters) are sharper and easier to read even at smaller sizes. Though, comparing the two now (via screen -x -- screen rocks), the hiragana actually looks better in gnome-terminal... YMMV. Note: hanja = 한자 = かんじ = chinese characters... It's the Korean word, which is similar to the mandarin word, but I don't know how to write the mandarin word (or its romanization). But also note, if all you're doing is copy-pasting the text into a browser to translate, you don't even need to see the glyphs. The empty rectangles suffice... Assuming you're in a UTF-8 environment, you'll still be able to copy the rectangles and paste them into your browser, and the system will still know what characters are supposed to be there, even if you can't see them. -- Derek D. Martinhttp://www.pizzashack.org/ GPG Key ID: 0xDFBEAD02 -=-=-=-=- This message is posted from an invalid address. Replying to it will result in undeliverable mail due to spam prevention. Sorry for the inconvenience. pgpQoxUSYM5u2.pgp Description: PGP signature
