Re: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
OK, I'm closing this thread, as Dan has been the only one who has provided a link to exactly what I was looking for. I still cant post through Google Groups, but at least I dont have to download 40 email messages a day now. http://www.gmane.org Thanks Dan! "Dan Nelson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > In the last episode (Mar 31), Seth Brundle said: > > First people, please dont get all angry about my suggestion...please > > hear me out... > > > > > I really hate on-line forums. They're difficult to track because I > > > must remember visit them daily. > > > > OK this is the first issue - 95% of people who need MySQL info do not > > need it daily. Mailing lists are a poor tool for them. > > > > > And I can't use them while disconnected. > > > > H...seems like some Yahoo! employee has never used Yahoo! Groups > > ;) > > > > There is plenty of web discussion software (like Yahoo! Groups, > > although I'm not necessarily recommending that one) where you can > > still have all of the features of a mailing list, yet also have all > > the features of web discussion, so there really is no reason to have > > a mailing list only, except to be old-school. > > Yahoo groups are really mailinglists, though, so you wouldn't buy > anything by moving to them. Their web interface is also one of the > worst imho; I preferred the original Findmail interface (circa 98 > before they got bought by eGroups, before /they/ got bought by Yahoo :) > > > > I believe there is already a read-only NNTP mirror of this group. > > > > The NNTP mirror is actually a double-edged sword - yes it takes care > > of archiving and searching (via Google Groups), I will agree, but it > > misleads infrequent users into thinking posting actually does > > something meaningful. > > gmane ( http://www.gmane.org or nntp://news.gmane.org ) mirrors 10 > mysql mailinglists, and is a 2-way system so you can post from it. The > preferred access method is with a newsreader, but there's also a web > interface. > > -- > Dan Nelson > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- > MySQL General Mailing List > For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql > To unsubscribe: http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
David Brodbeck wrote: I know a lot of people who refuse to use Yahoo Groups because of Yahoo's very open and ever-changing privacy policy. Most of the other combination web discussion board/mailing list systems I've seen are not very good at doing mail. They're web chat boards with mail notification tacked on. Mind if I throw my hand up as one of those people? :-) -- Michael T. Babcock C.T.O., FibreSpeed Ltd. http://www.fibrespeed.net/~mbabcock -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Jeremy, et al --
...and then Jeremy Zawodny said...
%
% On Mon, Mar 31, 2003 at 11:37:47AM -0800, Seth Brundle wrote:
% > First people, please dont get all angry about my suggestion...please hear me
% > out...
I admit that I was one of those to bristle when I read your first post in
the thread, and was very happy to see others smack down the idea :-)
Your later comment that mail and news would be nice is right up my alley;
I'm all in favor of that, just like the perl.com lists.
In case there's still any question, I would loudly bewail the
disappearance of this list ("make this a web discussion forum") and would
never visit a web site or even a newsgroup.
%
...
% > Unless you have the entire history of the mailing list downloaded to
% > your mail spool and have a very powerful, feature-rich, and most
% > importatly very fast email search tool, you cant both search
% > archives and post messages with the same piece of software.
%
% Agreed. I've yet to see a good mail tool that does it all. But that
% doesn't mean mailing lists bad.
I guess neither of you have seen mutt with an nntp patch applied ;-)
I think the real problem is that MS Outhouse has taken over much of the
email traffic running today in the hands of 'net newbies, unlike a sane
and simple newsreader (like, say, trn) in the hands of good netizens.
Frankly I long a bit for the days when TOFU was unknown, everyone knew
how to be McQ, and one could either be a dependent leaf or just pull down
your own mail and news to have it locally (web sites aren't typically
meant to be mirrored by the anonymous visitor).
mysql query,
:-D
- --
David T-G * There is too much animal courage in
(play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * society and not sufficient moral courage.
(work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Mary Baker Eddy, "Science and Health"
http://justpickone.org/davidtg/ Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg!
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RE: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
> -Original Message- > From: Seth Brundle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > I don't have to wait for some remote, overloaded server > > to respond. > > I dont understand this one at all. Every web forum I've used has been slow. I don't want to have to wait 10-20 seconds to pull up each message when I'm browsing, when in an email list my client can pull them up instantly. It's frustrating and a waste of my time. -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
> -Original Message- > From: Seth Brundle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > This makes no sense as message I post to a Yahoo! Group get emailed to > opt-in members and appears on the group within seconds, while > I may not > receive something I posted to the MySQL list for minutes or > sometimes hours. It's not the turn-around time I'm referring to. I can go do something else during that. It's the time to pull up each message. -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
> -Original Message- > From: Seth Brundle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > I've worked with MySQL for about 7 years > and have never > found it convenient. Fair enough. But I've worked with probably half a dozen web boards and have yet to see one I liked better than an email list. All the ones I've tried have been awkward and much more time consuming to use. Anything delivered through HTTP that plays at being realtime and two-way ends up being slow and painful. It's just not what the protocol was designed for. -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
> No but those in need of help does. And those ppl who are capable of helping > them are usually busy. Do they keep a browser open and refresh the forum > frequently? I'll answer that question: no. Many forums packages have the ability to distribute the discussion as a mailing list as well (Yahoo! Groups being one). You dont need to lose your mailing list functionality. > >The NNTP mirror is actually a double-edged sword - yes it takes care of > >archiving and searching (via Google Groups), I will agree, but it misleads > >infrequent users into thinking posting actually does something meaningful. > > Why don't you build a better one? Why not just make is RW? > IIRC sendmail list has both posting via NNTP and mailinglist. Helpful for only those who know about it (few). > >-Easily break discussion into sub-categories (especially for MySQL, where > >SQL questions are combined with everything else, would be nice to break that > >out) > > PHP has several different lists and most questions end up on the general > list. Usually cross-posted to other lists. Why do I have to go to different places for different features of the same forum? > >SourceForge is a great idea, but a poorly designed system. > >Obviously a package designed by an engineer, its a mess. > > You seem to be a brilliant coder so..perhaps you can re-design sourceforge > and the underlaying code. Anyway, I expect an announcement from you real > soon that you created a mail to NNTP gateway for this list.. You are going > to build that.. right? If DataKonsult would bless it and offer to host it, I would write a SMTP<->NNTP gateway, sure. I have written a good deal of USENET software, including a newsreader, so you probably baited the wrong programmer. That's not exactly a rocket science project for a decent perl programmer. I would rather just have the group made read-write and write a proxy for mailing list fans, because I know if I did this the mailing list would fall out of favor anyway (although it would still be there for diehards). As far as SourceForge goes - I'm not a bad coder, but I'm definitely good enough to know when to employ the help of a human interface designer before I spend a few months writing code. A lot of engineers, lacking a project manager, feel that they can handle design just because they are good coders. This is rarely true. A review of the range of quality of X-based application interfaces, regardless of the power of the application, is indicative of this. Again, no reason to be combative here, all I am suggesting is making a web or usenet home to make MySQL help more accessable. I know you want to argue that anyone who uses MySQL should know how the mailing lists and its various mirrors work, but in fact it is confusing and bothersome to many people if not you personally. I've worked with MySQL for about 7 years and have never found it convenient. -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
Miguel Here are the contents of my localhost.err: InnoDB: Error: log file .\ib_logfile1 is of different size 0 0 bytes InnoDB: than specified in the .cnf file 0 5242880 bytes! 030331 18:16:45 Can't init databases 030331 18:16:45 Aborting 030331 18:16:45 InnoDB: Warning: shutting down a not properly started InnoDB: or created database! 030331 18:16:45 MySql: Shutdown Complete does this make any sense to you? Muchas Gracias Martin - Original Message - From: "miguel solorzano" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Martin Gainty" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Seth Brundle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "David Brodbeck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 5:11 PM Subject: Re: Could we make this a web discussion forum? At 16:49 31/03/2003 -0700, Martin Gainty wrote: >Sorry to hike the thread but I have a specific question >What causes "System Error 1067" when starting mysql in Windows >Does anyone know? The MySQL server has aborted for some reason that should be find on \mysql\data\hostname.err or mysql.err. also you can get messages error starting the server as standalone e.g: mysqld-nt --standalone --console -- Regards, __ ___ ___ __ / |/ /_ __/ __/ __ \/ /Miguel Angel Solórzano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> / /|_/ / // /\ \/ /_/ / /__ São Paulo - Brazil /_/ /_/\_, /___/\___\_\___/ <___/ www.mysql.com -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
At 16:49 31/03/2003 -0700, Martin Gainty wrote: Sorry to hike the thread but I have a specific question What causes "System Error 1067" when starting mysql in Windows Does anyone know? The MySQL server has aborted for some reason that should be find on \mysql\data\hostname.err or mysql.err. also you can get messages error starting the server as standalone e.g: mysqld-nt --standalone --console -- Regards, __ ___ ___ __ / |/ /_ __/ __/ __ \/ /Miguel Angel Solórzano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> / /|_/ / // /\ \/ /_/ / /__ São Paulo - Brazil /_/ /_/\_, /___/\___\_\___/ <___/ www.mysql.com -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
On Mon, Mar 31, 2003 at 11:37:47AM -0800, Seth Brundle wrote: > First people, please dont get all angry about my suggestion...please hear me > out... > > > I really hate on-line forums. They're difficult to track because I > > must remember visit them daily. > > OK this is the first issue - 95% of people who need MySQL info do not need > it daily. Mailing lists are a poor tool for them. > > > And I can't use them while disconnected. > > H...seems like some Yahoo! employee has never used Yahoo! Groups ;) Huh? I'm on about 24 Y! Groups. Your original post was to request "A web discussion board." I don't think of Y! Groups in that category at all. They're primarily e-mail based. And the web interface portion is pretty bad. There are much better web-base systems out there. Look at DSLReports, for example. That's an excellent web-based discussion system. Y! Groups could learn a lot from it, interface-wise. > There is plenty of web discussion software (like Yahoo! Groups, > although I'm not necessarily recommending that one) where you can > still have all of the features of a mailing list, yet also have all > the features of web discussion, so there really is no reason to have > a mailing list only, except to be old-school. Ahh, okay. That didn't come across at all [to me, at least] in your original post. > > > A web discussion board is a much more powerful and flexible tool for > > > this type of community. > > > > Hmm. E-mail has been around for a long, long time. I'm skeptical of > > this claim. > > Just because its been around longer means its better? Not at all. But it means I'm going to be skeptical of some new shiny thing just because it is new and shiny. > I'm just saying that usenet groups and discussion forums solved the > problem of belonging to too many mailing lists. Yes, but they're not the only solution, right? My mail software solves the problem for me. I've never really had trouble getting 500-3,000 messages per day. > If every package I used involved a mailing list for discussion, I > would need to track about 40 of them. Right now the only mailing > lists I really am stuck using is MySQL and ImageMagick. You make it sound as if there are no web-based discussion forums that welcome MySQL discussion. There are many. > > > Thread tracking, archiving, searching > > E-mail gives you all of those. > > Unless you have the entire history of the mailing list downloaded to > your mail spool and have a very powerful, feature-rich, and most > importatly very fast email search tool, you cant both search > archives and post messages with the same piece of software. Agreed. I've yet to see a good mail tool that does it all. But that doesn't mean mailing lists bad. > Email is ok for thread tracking if subject integrity is maintained, but most > email clients cant reliably collapse and expand threads. That goes back to my original response to you--it's a matter of using the right tools. > > > Also emails get mirrored on google groups for convenient spam > > > harvesting - its really a pain in the butt. > > > > How would using a web forum help that? > > Because most modern web forum software has an option to hide your email > address. That's a minor issue if you ask me. Anyone can published un-munged archives for this list. You're assuming that nobody else will. > Also a web forum has a lot of other advantages: > > -Easily break discussion into sub-categories (especially for MySQL, where > SQL questions are combined with everything else, would be nice to break that > out) What sort of categories would you envision? I had thought about floating a idea for batter categorizing posts here, but never got around to it. > -Better threading, allowing subject change and collapsing/expanding threads Better than what? > -Dont break long URLs. Who is breaking them now? > -Heavily quoted emails easier to read. > -Facilitate private messages without using email. Why is that good? Do we need yet another way to message that's like e-mail but different for the sake of being different? > Also, a lot of people are adverse to web collaboration because most free > discussion software is crap. It is either not very powerful, poorly > designed, or difficult to install and/or maintain. Or full of very annoying ads. Y! Groups, anyone? > FuseTalk seems like an excellent package. > FatWallet.com uses it. I'll have a look. I've only seen a very few on-line discussion systems that really impressed me. > SourceForge is a great idea, but a poorly designed system. > Obviously a package designed by an engineer, its a mess. Indeed. Jeremy -- Jeremy D. Zawodny | Perl, Web, MySQL, Linux Magazine, Yahoo! <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | http://jeremy.zawodny.com/ MySQL 4.0.8: up 56 days, processed 1,896,986,981 queries (388/sec. avg) -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
Just my two cents > -Original Message- > From: Seth Brundle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 3:29 PM > To: David Brodbeck; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Could we make this a web discussion forum? > > > > > I really hate on-line forums. They're difficult to track because I > > > must remember visit them daily. > > > > Agreed. I don't need yet another web page to keep track of. I > prefer to > > let my mail reader thread up the messages on this list, then I browse > > through every now and then and delete everything with a subject that > doesn't > > look interesting. It's much more convenient than a web forum, and much > > faster too, because > > Email lists are essentially push technology. > It assumes that becuase you are interested in something, you are > insterested > in it every day. > There is absolutely no information that I need pushed to me every day. > If I want it, i will go there and participate. So don't subscribe to the list, check one of the many online archives when you feel like checking them (I like http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/ ). I like getting posts in my email box, that is why I subscribed the the mailing list, to get them as email. If it were a web forum I would have to wait for everyone to check the forum after I posted my question, then check back after they had checked in order to get replies. This way, people get my question immediately and the answers come to me immediately. > Think of it this way - lets say you use 1,000 pieces of software over the > course of the year - this is easy to imagine if you consider ls(1) to be a > piece of software. Its pretty easy to imagine how impossible it > would be to > maintain subscription to 1,000 mailing lists (I get annoyed with 10!). > So only subscribe to the ones that interest you. I have Microsoft Office installed on my computer but I am not on any Microsoft lists, because I don't care to be. > So what makes MySQL so special? I am interested in it so I thought it was special enough to sign up for the list, if you don't, don't. > > > I don't have to wait for some remote, overloaded server > > to respond. > > I dont understand this one at all. The amount of people on the list checking a single website constantly (messages come in all day long, you'd have to check often, even more frequently if you were waiting for an answer) would probably overload a webserver and make it slow to respond. The amount of hardware you'd have to throw at it would be a lot more than required to run a mailing list. -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
> Most ppl don't like forums. I disagee with that, but then again I probably dont have any more idea then you do. > Do you know even one serious project which uses > a forum? I know Slackware did and it really was a PAIN. All of the projects on SourceForge.net? Also, by forum I also mean usenet forum, so I would name about 100 pieces of software that are supported there. > Mail to this list gets mirrored on more places then you can imagine, same > goes for PHP lists. You can't blame this on the MySQL ppl. > > There would be less mail if ppl would care to do their homework. There would be less mail if searching archives was done with the same piece of software as posting. > Email is convenient, it just gets into your mailbox and you read it.. A > forum would require ppl to open a browser or newsreader. Seriously, are you telling me that there isnt a browser open on your desktop, or that that is a special request? I have a browser open more often then an email client. I would argue that opening my email client is more of a special request for me then opening a browser - also consider that an enormous amount of people are using webmail for anaonymous subscrption to stuff like mailing lists (if not all email) for basic privacy and to curb spam. If you arent a friend of mine, you sure as hell dont know my pop email address. > If you're busy then it's not fun. I'm busy how about a 87-hour work week last week? And I dont like email forums because they arent fun. I need to do much more scanning and management of an mailing list (whether I choose participate daily or once a year) then I do with say, Perl, where I login to google groups and search the entire history of the group and/or post within about 30 secs - and I get more and better answers overall. I dont have to remember what that group's posting email address is either. Also I would say that USENET groups get more traffic because the threshold to access is much lower. A lot of people argue that that means more noise, but I find that regardless of the noise, more access=more questions=more answers=more solved problems=bigger community=better software. I rarely ever have to post to Perl because I can always find the answer in the USENET archive, but I can rarely find an answer to my MySQL questions from the mailing list archive. I know at least part of that has to do with aversion to mailing lists by Joe Schmoe, if not JZ. -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
Sorry to hike the thread but I have a specific question What causes "System Error 1067" when starting mysql in Windows Does anyone know? Martin - Original Message - From: "Seth Brundle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "David Brodbeck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Could we make this a web discussion forum? > > > I really hate on-line forums. They're difficult to track because I > > > must remember visit them daily. > > > > Agreed. I don't need yet another web page to keep track of. I prefer to > > let my mail reader thread up the messages on this list, then I browse > > through every now and then and delete everything with a subject that > doesn't > > look interesting. It's much more convenient than a web forum, and much > > faster too, because > > Email lists are essentially push technology. > It assumes that becuase you are interested in something, you are insterested > in it every day. > There is absolutely no information that I need pushed to me every day. > If I want it, i will go there and participate. > > Think of it this way - lets say you use 1,000 pieces of software over the > course of the year - this is easy to imagine if you consider ls(1) to be a > piece of software. Its pretty easy to imagine how impossible it would be to > maintain subscription to 1,000 mailing lists (I get annoyed with 10!). > > So what makes MySQL so special? > > > I don't have to wait for some remote, overloaded server > > to respond. > > I dont understand this one at all. > > -- > MySQL General Mailing List > For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql > To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
> It's much more convenient than a web forum, and much > faster too, because I don't have to wait for some remote, overloaded server > to respond. This makes no sense as message I post to a Yahoo! Group get emailed to opt-in members and appears on the group within seconds, while I may not receive something I posted to the MySQL list for minutes or sometimes hours. -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
> > I really hate on-line forums. They're difficult to track because I > > must remember visit them daily. > > Agreed. I don't need yet another web page to keep track of. I prefer to > let my mail reader thread up the messages on this list, then I browse > through every now and then and delete everything with a subject that doesn't > look interesting. It's much more convenient than a web forum, and much > faster too, because Email lists are essentially push technology. It assumes that becuase you are interested in something, you are insterested in it every day. There is absolutely no information that I need pushed to me every day. If I want it, i will go there and participate. Think of it this way - lets say you use 1,000 pieces of software over the course of the year - this is easy to imagine if you consider ls(1) to be a piece of software. Its pretty easy to imagine how impossible it would be to maintain subscription to 1,000 mailing lists (I get annoyed with 10!). So what makes MySQL so special? > I don't have to wait for some remote, overloaded server > to respond. I dont understand this one at all. -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
> I really hate on-line forums. They're difficult to track because I > must remember visit them daily. OK this is the first issue - 95% of people who need MySQL info do not need it daily. Mailing lists are a poor tool for them. No but those in need of help does. And those ppl who are capable of helping them are usually busy. Do they keep a browser open and refresh the forum frequently? I'll answer that question: no. The NNTP mirror is actually a double-edged sword - yes it takes care of archiving and searching (via Google Groups), I will agree, but it misleads infrequent users into thinking posting actually does something meaningful. Why don't you build a better one? IIRC sendmail list has both posting via NNTP and mailinglist. -Easily break discussion into sub-categories (especially for MySQL, where SQL questions are combined with everything else, would be nice to break that out) PHP has several different lists and most questions end up on the general list. Usually cross-posted to other lists. SourceForge is a great idea, but a poorly designed system. Obviously a package designed by an engineer, its a mess. You seem to be a brilliant coder so..perhaps you can re-design sourceforge and the underlaying code. Anyway, I expect an announcement from you real soon that you created a mail to NNTP gateway for this list.. You are going to build that.. right? B. -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
In the last episode (Mar 31), Seth Brundle said: > First people, please dont get all angry about my suggestion...please > hear me out... > > > I really hate on-line forums. They're difficult to track because I > > must remember visit them daily. > > OK this is the first issue - 95% of people who need MySQL info do not > need it daily. Mailing lists are a poor tool for them. > > > And I can't use them while disconnected. > > H...seems like some Yahoo! employee has never used Yahoo! Groups > ;) > > There is plenty of web discussion software (like Yahoo! Groups, > although I'm not necessarily recommending that one) where you can > still have all of the features of a mailing list, yet also have all > the features of web discussion, so there really is no reason to have > a mailing list only, except to be old-school. Yahoo groups are really mailinglists, though, so you wouldn't buy anything by moving to them. Their web interface is also one of the worst imho; I preferred the original Findmail interface (circa 98 before they got bought by eGroups, before /they/ got bought by Yahoo :) > > I believe there is already a read-only NNTP mirror of this group. > > The NNTP mirror is actually a double-edged sword - yes it takes care > of archiving and searching (via Google Groups), I will agree, but it > misleads infrequent users into thinking posting actually does > something meaningful. gmane ( http://www.gmane.org or nntp://news.gmane.org ) mirrors 10 mysql mailinglists, and is a 2-way system so you can post from it. The preferred access method is with a newsreader, but there's also a web interface. -- Dan Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
Yes, if someone has something to complain about, make a website and point the others to it. This topic of dicussion - improving the state of things - has been recurrent in every mailing lists for ages, and it stops only when somebody DOES something about it ;-) Very nice argumentation by Seth Brundle, even though I am thinking in the same lines, but didn't want to add to the noise.. now it's done. ;-) Cordialement, Damien COLA http://www.VarMalin.com -Original Message- From: John Griffin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Third, this is a general comment. Don't spout off unless you are willing to help be part of the solution. Asking a question in the form of a complaint or a rant may make you feel good but it is generally not well received. -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
Hi, I would like to add my 2 cents worth. First, I like having a mailing list. I do not post very frequently but I do like to scan the posts of others. It is a great way to learn little tricks and tips about MySQL. Second, I don't see why you can't have both a mailing list and an on-line forum. I have used FuseTalk in the past and I remember receiving email on threads that I was interested in so it is possible. So the data can be retrieved and stored via a mail interface and a Web interface. Third, this is a general comment. Don't spout off unless you are willing to help be part of the solution. Asking a question in the form of a complaint or a rant may make you feel good but it is generally not well received. That said, does anyone have any suggestions on how this forum could be made more accessible? The one that seems to be most prevalent at the moment is the Web interface. Keep in mind that the good people at MySQL suffer from the same time and financial constraints as you do so don't ask for the moon unless you are willing to help go and get it. All appropriately tagged rants accepted. John Griffin -Original Message- From: Seth Brundle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 2:38 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Could we make this a web discussion forum? First people, please dont get all angry about my suggestion...please hear me out... > I really hate on-line forums. They're difficult to track because I > must remember visit them daily. OK this is the first issue - 95% of people who need MySQL info do not need it daily. Mailing lists are a poor tool for them. > And I can't use them while disconnected. H...seems like some Yahoo! employee has never used Yahoo! Groups ;) There is plenty of web discussion software (like Yahoo! Groups, although I'm not necessarily recommending that one) where you can still have all of the features of a mailing list, yet also have all the features of web discussion, so there really is no reason to have a mailing list only, except to be old-school. > > A web discussion board is a much more powerful and flexible tool for > > this type of community. > > Hmm. E-mail has been around for a long, long time. I'm skeptical of > this claim. Just because its been around longer means its better? Or should never be augmented? I'm just saying that usenet groups and discussion forums solved the problem of belonging to too many mailing lists. If every package I used involved a mailing list for discussion, I would need to track about 40 of them. Right now the only mailing lists I really am stuck using is MySQL and ImageMagick. ImageMagick is the worst, as there is no archive (well, there are monthly gz's - big help - gah) and requires subscription. If you want to ask a single question, you are obliged to subscribe and suck down all the daily traffic (more traffic then MySQL) until your thread is dead. I guess my hatred for mailing groups has more to do with that list then this one. Every time I want to get involved I have to go figure out - OK, h trying to remember do I need to subscribe? Whats that process? > > Thread tracking, archiving, searching > E-mail gives you all of those. Unless you have the entire history of the mailing list downloaded to your mail spool and have a very powerful, feature-rich, and most importatly very fast email search tool, you cant both search archives and post messages with the same piece of software. Email is ok for thread tracking if subject integrity is maintained, but most email clients cant reliably collapse and expand threads. > > Cant we convert this into a discussion board or better yet just make > > the usenet group mirror postable from google groups? > > I believe there is already a read-only NNTP mirror of this group. The NNTP mirror is actually a double-edged sword - yes it takes care of archiving and searching (via Google Groups), I will agree, but it misleads infrequent users into thinking posting actually does something meaningful. > > There are 4 lists like this one where I have to continuously > > subscribe and unsubscribe throughout the year when I want to > > participate. > > Why must you subscribe and unsubscribe to participate? There's no > membership requirement to post here. And you can always read the > messages on-line. There are at least 2 web archives of this group. > You've seen those, right? I know that Google has. Sorry, I didnt realize that I didnt need to subscribe to post - but again, this is one of those rules for each mailing list that you must remember, which is a PIA. Yes, if you live here, it is not a problem of remembering, but 95% of people who use MySQL dont require that level of involvement. > > Also emails get mirrored on google groups for convenient spam > > harvesting - i
RE: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
> -Original Message- > From: Seth Brundle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > H...seems like some Yahoo! employee has never used > Yahoo! Groups ;) I know a lot of people who refuse to use Yahoo Groups because of Yahoo's very open and ever-changing privacy policy. Most of the other combination web discussion board/mailing list systems I've seen are not very good at doing mail. They're web chat boards with mail notification tacked on. > If every package I used involved a mailing list for discussion, I would need to track > about 40 of them. How will web boards help? It's easier for me to glance through a stack of email folders (sorted by my mail rules) than it is for me to visit a bunch of web sites every day. Between logging in to each one individually, waiting for sluggish page loads, and digging through all the nested discussion folders it's just too time-consuming. It's much better for me to have my mail client collect everything in one spot for me. > Email is ok for thread tracking if subject integrity is > maintained, but most > email clients cant reliably collapse and expand threads. Microsoft Outlook seems to do it well. Are you telling me no one but Microsoft has been able to get this right? > Sorry, I didnt realize that I didnt need to subscribe to post - but again, > this is one of those rules for each mailing list that you must remember, > which is a PIA. For me the situation is worse with web forums, because every one of them works differently. It's confusing. Plus I have to remember a username and password for each one, and log on individually, instead of logging on once to my mail account. I avoid web forums for these reasons. They're just a lot more painful to use than a mailing list. They're also almost always really sluggish and full of graphical animated .signatures and brightly colored smiley-face cruft. Just not worth the trouble, unless you're a 14-year-old script kiddie who still thinks that stuff is fun. ;) I think if the MySQL list went to a web-only discussion board I'd probably stop paying attention to it. -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
First people, please dont get all angry about my suggestion...please hear me out... > I really hate on-line forums. They're difficult to track because I > must remember visit them daily. OK this is the first issue - 95% of people who need MySQL info do not need it daily. Mailing lists are a poor tool for them. > And I can't use them while disconnected. H...seems like some Yahoo! employee has never used Yahoo! Groups ;) There is plenty of web discussion software (like Yahoo! Groups, although I'm not necessarily recommending that one) where you can still have all of the features of a mailing list, yet also have all the features of web discussion, so there really is no reason to have a mailing list only, except to be old-school. > > A web discussion board is a much more powerful and flexible tool for > > this type of community. > > Hmm. E-mail has been around for a long, long time. I'm skeptical of > this claim. Just because its been around longer means its better? Or should never be augmented? I'm just saying that usenet groups and discussion forums solved the problem of belonging to too many mailing lists. If every package I used involved a mailing list for discussion, I would need to track about 40 of them. Right now the only mailing lists I really am stuck using is MySQL and ImageMagick. ImageMagick is the worst, as there is no archive (well, there are monthly gz's - big help - gah) and requires subscription. If you want to ask a single question, you are obliged to subscribe and suck down all the daily traffic (more traffic then MySQL) until your thread is dead. I guess my hatred for mailing groups has more to do with that list then this one. Every time I want to get involved I have to go figure out - OK, h trying to remember do I need to subscribe? Whats that process? > > Thread tracking, archiving, searching > E-mail gives you all of those. Unless you have the entire history of the mailing list downloaded to your mail spool and have a very powerful, feature-rich, and most importatly very fast email search tool, you cant both search archives and post messages with the same piece of software. Email is ok for thread tracking if subject integrity is maintained, but most email clients cant reliably collapse and expand threads. > > Cant we convert this into a discussion board or better yet just make > > the usenet group mirror postable from google groups? > > I believe there is already a read-only NNTP mirror of this group. The NNTP mirror is actually a double-edged sword - yes it takes care of archiving and searching (via Google Groups), I will agree, but it misleads infrequent users into thinking posting actually does something meaningful. > > There are 4 lists like this one where I have to continuously > > subscribe and unsubscribe throughout the year when I want to > > participate. > > Why must you subscribe and unsubscribe to participate? There's no > membership requirement to post here. And you can always read the > messages on-line. There are at least 2 web archives of this group. > You've seen those, right? I know that Google has. Sorry, I didnt realize that I didnt need to subscribe to post - but again, this is one of those rules for each mailing list that you must remember, which is a PIA. Yes, if you live here, it is not a problem of remembering, but 95% of people who use MySQL dont require that level of involvement. > > Also emails get mirrored on google groups for convenient spam > > harvesting - its really a pain in the butt. > > How would using a web forum help that? Because most modern web forum software has an option to hide your email address. Also a web forum has a lot of other advantages: -Easily break discussion into sub-categories (especially for MySQL, where SQL questions are combined with everything else, would be nice to break that out) -Sticky posts with general, important, and first-timer information -Better threading, allowing subject change and collapsing/expanding threads -Web Forums have the search box and a link menu to other resources at the top (source downloads, documentation, related sites) rather then needing to switch between web and email applications to integrate resources. -Dont break long URLs. -Heavily quoted emails easier to read. -Thread listings can show #replies, views, age, even have ratings and show OP. -Facilitate private messages without using email. Also, a lot of people are adverse to web collaboration because most free discussion software is crap. It is either not very powerful, poorly designed, or difficult to install and/or maintain. There is very powerful stuff out there that is very well designed, you just need to kick down for it. FuseTalk seems like an excellent package. FatWallet.com uses it. I'm sure there are more relevant implementation examples as theirs is kinda hokey and fun, which isnt specific to the software package itself, but the features are astounding and very useful. I love its ability for users t
RE: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
> -Original Message- > From: Jeremy Zawodny [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > I really hate on-line forums. They're difficult to track because I > must remember visit them daily. Agreed. I don't need yet another web page to keep track of. I prefer to let my mail reader thread up the messages on this list, then I browse through every now and then and delete everything with a subject that doesn't look interesting. It's much more convenient than a web forum, and much faster too, because I don't have to wait for some remote, overloaded server to respond. -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
If this is an April fools joke, you are off a day. Seth Brundle wrote: I really hate mailing lists - they are dinosaurs for this type of thing. A web discussion board is a much more powerful and flexible tool for this type of community. Thread tracking, archiving, searching, dont have to download 50 emails a day just to monitor a couple threads...cmon its 2003! Cant we convert this into a discussion board or better yet just make the usenet group mirror postable from google groups? There are 4 lists like this one where I have to continuously subscribe and unsubscribe throughout the year when I want to participate. Also emails get mirrored on google groups for convenient spam harvesting - its really a pain in the butt. -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
On Mon, Mar 31, 2003 at 12:52:43AM -0800, Seth Brundle wrote: > > I really hate mailing lists - they are dinosaurs for this type of thing. I really hate on-line forums. They're difficult to track because I must remember visit them daily. And I can't use them while disconnected. With e-mail, I download it all in one shot and read it anywhere. I can write responses, queue them up, and send 'em when I have a connection. > A web discussion board is a much more powerful and flexible tool for > this type of community. Hmm. E-mail has been around for a long, long time. I'm skeptical of this claim. > Thread tracking, archiving, searching E-mail gives you all of those. > dont have to download 50 emails a day just to monitor a couple > threads...cmon its 2003! That sounds like a problem with your choice of mail tools, unless I'm mis-understanding your gripe. > Cant we convert this into a discussion board or better yet just make > the usenet group mirror postable from google groups? I believe there is already a read-only NNTP mirror of this group. > There are 4 lists like this one where I have to continuously > subscribe and unsubscribe throughout the year when I want to > participate. Why must you subscribe and unsubscribe to participate? There's no membership requirement to post here. And you can always read the messages on-line. There are at least 2 web archives of this group. You've seen those, right? I know that Google has. > Also emails get mirrored on google groups for convenient spam > harvesting - its really a pain in the butt. How would using a web forum help that? Jeremy -- Jeremy D. Zawodny | Perl, Web, MySQL, Linux Magazine, Yahoo! <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | http://jeremy.zawodny.com/ MySQL 4.0.8: up 55 days, processed 1,882,414,788 queries (389/sec. avg) -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Could we make this a web discussion forum?
Most ppl don't like forums. Do you know even one serious project which uses a forum? I know Slackware did and it really was a PAIN. Mail to this list gets mirrored on more places then you can imagine, same goes for PHP lists. You can't blame this on the MySQL ppl. There would be less mail if ppl would care to do their homework. Email is convenient, it just gets into your mailbox and you read it.. A forum would require ppl to open a browser or newsreader.. If you're busy then it's not fun. B. At 00:52 31-03-2003 -0800, Seth Brundle wrote: I really hate mailing lists - they are dinosaurs for this type of thing. A web discussion board is a much more powerful and flexible tool for this type of community. Thread tracking, archiving, searching, dont have to download 50 emails a day just to monitor a couple threads...cmon its 2003! Cant we convert this into a discussion board or better yet just make the usenet group mirror postable from google groups? There are 4 lists like this one where I have to continuously subscribe and unsubscribe throughout the year when I want to participate. Also emails get mirrored on google groups for convenient spam harvesting - its really a pain in the butt. -- MySQL General Mailing List For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql To unsubscribe:http://lists.mysql.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
