Re: [mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
On Tue, May 24, 2005 at 10:54:03PM -0400, Dave wrote: > I believe this statement is incorrect. > > 1080i and 1080p (the ones specified by the ATSC standard at least) > require the same amount of bandwidth. > 1080i is transmitted at 60 fields/sec, which is equivalent (as a field > is half a frame) to 30 frames/sec > 1080p is transmitted at 30 frames/sec > > 1080p/60 frames/sec is NOT an ATSC standard. Computer monitors, and the dual dvi spec, however, are capable of 1080p 60fps, and there's little reason that the 1080 line HDTVs they sell us should not be capable of it. If they were, we could feed them 1080i with bob, and have 1080p 60fps resolution for our computer generated materials and other specialized video. We should encourage them to do it. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
On 5/22/05, Joe Barnhart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- Matt Mossholder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > It's my understanding that this is a limitation of HDMI/DVI, not > > something that Samsung chose not to implement. It doesn't support > > enough > > bandwidth to do 1080p. > > I think you are correct. There was a good article about DVI on Tom's > Hardware some time ago. They say that it requires a "dual link" card > and device to achieve very high resolutions: > > http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20041129/tft_connection-06.html > > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > ___ > mythtv-users mailing list > mythtv-users@mythtv.org > http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users > > > I believe this statement is incorrect. 1080i and 1080p (the ones specified by the ATSC standard at least) require the same amount of bandwidth. 1080i is transmitted at 60 fields/sec, which is equivalent (as a field is half a frame) to 30 frames/sec 1080p is transmitted at 30 frames/sec 1080p/60 frames/sec is NOT an ATSC standard. Hope this helps Dave ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
--- Matt Mossholder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It's my understanding that this is a limitation of HDMI/DVI, not > something that Samsung chose not to implement. It doesn't support > enough > bandwidth to do 1080p. I think you are correct. There was a good article about DVI on Tom's Hardware some time ago. They say that it requires a "dual link" card and device to achieve very high resolutions: http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20041129/tft_connection-06.html __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
> It's my understanding that this is a limitation of HDMI/DVI, not > something that Samsung chose not to implement. It doesn't support enough > bandwidth to do 1080p. > > Of course, I can't remember where I saw it, so I could be making things > up. My brain does that these days. LOL, imagining the conversations between engineers designing DVI, I recall a certain quote from Bill Gates about 640K or something... :) Cheers, Kyle ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
On Sun, 2005-05-22 at 11:23 -0400, Kyle Rose wrote: > Michael T. Dean wrote: > > Jack R. Hyde wrote: > > > >> The problem with the new 1080p samsungs is that they don't support 1080p > >> over the HDMI/DVI port. > >> > >> > > That's interesting (and sad). Kind of like stopping 10 feet short of > > the finish in a marathon. > > It's especially dumb because one of the benefits of a digital display > like a DLP is computer use, e.g., for video games: imagine Doom 3 in > 1920x1080. Drool. Oh, well, looks like Samsung dropped the ball. > > Kyle It's my understanding that this is a limitation of HDMI/DVI, not something that Samsung chose not to implement. It doesn't support enough bandwidth to do 1080p. Of course, I can't remember where I saw it, so I could be making things up. My brain does that these days. --Matt ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
Michael T. Dean wrote: > Jack R. Hyde wrote: > >> The problem with the new 1080p samsungs is that they don't support 1080p >> over the HDMI/DVI port. >> >> > That's interesting (and sad). Kind of like stopping 10 feet short of > the finish in a marathon. It's especially dumb because one of the benefits of a digital display like a DLP is computer use, e.g., for video games: imagine Doom 3 in 1920x1080. Drool. Oh, well, looks like Samsung dropped the ball. Kyle ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
Jack R. Hyde wrote: The problem with the new 1080p samsungs is that they don't support 1080p over the HDMI/DVI port. That's interesting (and sad). Kind of like stopping 10 feet short of the finish in a marathon. Mike ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
Joe Barnhart wrote: --- "Michael T. Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Do any broadcasters actually use 1080p, anyway (either 1080p30 or 1080p24)? I don't think so. I don't think it is one of the specified ATSC standard rates, is it? It is, although I really can't see much of a use for it (other than maybe for stills). See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html for a list of all 18 formats that are included in the ATSC specification (listed under the column "Format name"). I get over half my shows in 1080i here in the S.F. Bay Area. My PBS, CBS, and NBC affiliates broadcast in 1080i; while Fox and ABC broadcast in 720p. Wow. So--factoring in JDS's response ( http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/131855#131855 )--does that mean that local affiliates choose the format? It would make a lot more sense for the major networks to choose a format and for their affiliates to use that same format (i.e. NBC chooses 1080i and all affiliates broadcast in 1080i). If the affiliates choose the format, does that mean the networks provide both formats to affiliates? (I can't see re-encoding of the real-time feeds actually working--not to mention it doesn't make sense to re-encode from 720p to 1080i or vv.) Mike ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
--- "Michael T. Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Actually, 1080p and (true) 1080i both have the same resolution. The > difference is how often the pixels are updated. However you want to > say > it, I just want a TV with 1920x1080 pixels. I have one of those "obsolete technology" CRT projectors. It does 1080i and its picture is stunning. My system has motivated several people into building their own MythTv boxes. I would also consider updating it to a digital panel someday, either LCoS or DLP. But for now, I have not seen a DLP or LCD set I'd trade for. > Do any broadcasters actually use 1080p, anyway (either 1080p30 or > 1080p24)? I don't think so. I don't think it is one of the specified ATSC standard rates, is it? I get over half my shows in 1080i here in the S.F. Bay Area. My PBS, CBS, and NBC affiliates broadcast in 1080i; while Fox and ABC broadcast in 720p. __ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
On Saturday 21 May 2005 09:45 pm, James Armstrong wrote: > On May 21, 2005, at 4:11 PM, Brad Templeton wrote: > > On Sat, May 21, 2005 at 12:26:35PM -0400, Michael T. Dean wrote: > >> One reason that I haven't yet purchased a high-definition TV is > >> the fact > >> that TV's being sold today do not fully support the ATSC standard. > >> Whereas the maximum resolution allowable in the ATSC standard is > >> 1920x1080 pixels, today's TV's only support 1280x720 pixels > >> resolution. > > > > True, but that's similar to the logic that says you should never buy > > a computer, since if you buy one, it will be obsolete in 2 years when > > something twice as fast and half the price is available. > > Actually, that is what you get when you buy the new fangled tv's. My > 3 year old Hitachi HDTV has 1200 lines of resolution. That is why I > hate these new flatscreen and plasma tv's. They are only 720. Heh. Check your terminology. 'Lines of resolution' generally means horizontal resolution, not vertical. Isaac ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
RE: [mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
The problem with the new 1080p samsungs is that they don't support 1080p over the HDMI/DVI port. I can't stand to use the VGA/component ports on my 720p DLP after seeing the difference DVI makes. It's night and day with an HTPC. I would wait for them or somebody else to fix that problem before I invested in one. DVI is such a major leap above a VGA cable on a fixed pixel display. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
On May 21, 2005, at 4:11 PM, Brad Templeton wrote:On Sat, May 21, 2005 at 12:26:35PM -0400, Michael T. Dean wrote: One reason that I haven't yet purchased a high-definition TV is the fact that TV's being sold today do not fully support the ATSC standard. Whereas the maximum resolution allowable in the ATSC standard is 1920x1080 pixels, today's TV's only support 1280x720 pixels resolution. True, but that's similar to the logic that says you should never buya computer, since if you buy one, it will be obsolete in 2 years whensomething twice as fast and half the price is available.Actually, that is what you get when you buy the new fangled tv's. My 3 year old Hitachi HDTV has 1200 lines of resolution. That is why I hate these new flatscreen and plasma tv's. They are only 720.- James ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
Jay R. Ashworth wrote: On Sat, May 21, 2005 at 02:18:54PM -0400, Michael T. Dean wrote: i think you mean 1080p? Actually, 1080p and (true) 1080i both have the same resolution. Not really. 1080p is a 1080 scanline, 30 *frame* per second format. 1080i is a 540 scanline, 60 *field* per second format. Or, actually, 1080i has 1080 *interlaced* scan lines sampled temporally. That means that each field has 540 scanlines, but if those 540 scanlines are shown on a display having only 1920x540 resolution, the display would be--by definition--not interlaced (it would be 540p--and a very bad match of vertical and horizontal resolutions :). Instead, 1080i--to be interlaced--requires a 1920x1080 display to show the 1080 interlaced scanlines--drawing 540 scanlines per field and 1080 scanlines per frame. Therefore, I submit to you that 1080i *has* 1920x1080 resolution. And, yes, it is possible to send a 540p signal to a device expecting 1080i input; however, the signal is *not* 1080i. Therefore, this cannot be used as proof that 1080i has 1920x540 resolution... OK. I'll stop now. Bowing out of the conversation. Mike Wow. My [OT] thread went even farther off-topic... ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
On Sat, May 21, 2005 at 02:18:54PM -0400, Michael T. Dean wrote: > > i think you mean 1080p? > > Actually, 1080p and (true) 1080i both have the same resolution. Not really. 1080p is a 1080 scanline, 30 *frame* per second format. 1080i is a 540 scanline, 60 *field* per second format. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth[EMAIL PROTECTED] Designer Baylink RFC 2100 Ashworth & AssociatesThe Things I Think'87 e24 St Petersburg FL USA http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274 If you can read this... thank a system administrator. Or two. --me ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
On Sat, May 21, 2005 at 12:26:35PM -0400, Michael T. Dean wrote: > One reason that I haven't yet purchased a high-definition TV is the fact > that TV's being sold today do not fully support the ATSC standard. > Whereas the maximum resolution allowable in the ATSC standard is > 1920x1080 pixels, today's TV's only support 1280x720 pixels resolution. True, but that's similar to the logic that says you should never buy a computer, since if you buy one, it will be obsolete in 2 years when something twice as fast and half the price is available. This is a bit different, because with TVs there will be a 1080 line cap for a while due to standards and regulations, but even so the 1080 line TVs will be expensive at first, then drop in price every year, and then 1080p will start showing up and then drop in price (primarily from high-capacity DVDs whichever standard wins.) In the meantime if you "don't buy until..." you are missing a couple of things. a) 720p is actually a major step above your regular TV. After watching it for a while, you will start finding the SDTV unacceptably blurry. You will be annoyed at yourself for having watched those shows in SD. Imagine seeing Lawrence of Arabia on TV and eventually seeing it in the cinema and kicking yourself. Ok, it's not so dramatic as that, but it is pretty good. b) 480p on a 720 line TV is also surprisingly good. You get this from DVDs and also from the digital TV stations that upsample their 480i or (rarely) 480p image to an HDTV resolution for broadcast. So if you bought earlier you will have wasted some money, and gotten a much better TV experience for an extra year or two, and the main question is whether it's worth it and how much money you want to spend on video equipment of course. This isn't as bad as the people I talk to who say they are "waiting" to get a PVR (typically Tivo) until they mature and get cheaper. Though they are now pretty cheap. I worked out that, due to commercial skip, if you watched 10 hours of TV a week (which is way below national averages) you would end up skipping about 10 hours/month of commercials and other stuff, which even at a burger flipper's wage valuation of your time paid for any costs within just a few months. Many of the people who were waiting were highly paid people who's time could easily be valued at a level that paid for the thing in less than a month. HDTV doesn't do that to you of course, it's just a lesson about waiting. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
Gregorio Gervasio, Jr. wrote: The first post in this thread contains a bunch of information that people have gathered about Samsung's 1080p DLPs: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=089d8abb2bcac71df9fa69f04eaf555f&threadid=493443 Many other manufacturers have also announced 1080p DLP/3LCD/LCoS rear projection models to come out in the second half of the year. Also, if you're willing to go smaller (~35" - 46"), I think you can buy 1080p LCD flat panels already. Good info. I'll have to watch for some of the others. It will be interesting to see how they'll affect prices--especially with competing technologies. Mike ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
Donavan Stanley wrote: On 5/21/05, Michael T. Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Do any broadcasters actually use 1080p, anyway (either 1080p30 or 1080p24)? Most don't even use 1080i from waht I've seen. Pretty much every show I record is in 720p. I guess that makes the most sense with today's TV's. Mike ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
On 5/21/05, Michael T. Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Do any broadcasters actually use 1080p, anyway (either 1080p30 or 1080p24)? Most don't even use 1080i from waht I've seen. Pretty much every show I record is in 720p. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
gLaNDix (Jesse Kaufman) wrote: Michael T. Dean wrote: it's been impossible to buy a brand new TV that supports full 1080i resolution pretty much since the introduction of DLP. i think you mean 1080p? Actually, 1080p and (true) 1080i both have the same resolution. The difference is how often the pixels are updated. However you want to say it, I just want a TV with 1920x1080 pixels. Do any broadcasters actually use 1080p, anyway (either 1080p30 or 1080p24)? Mike ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
> Michael T Dean writes: m> So, anyway, I've been watching for someone to come out with a m> 1920x1080 TV and it seems that Samsung is planning to release the m> HLR6768W in the June/July timeframe ( m> http://www.cnet.com/4520-10602_1-5619186-1.html and m> http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/news/ny-i4252140may10,0,1418798.story m> ). There have been rumors that the TV has been put on hold, but they m> seem to be unfounded. m> The TV is in their DLP line and uses a new TI chip. It's a 67" TV and m> has an MSRP of about $6K Maybe once more vendors are carrying similar m> solutions, prices will drop. The first post in this thread contains a bunch of information that people have gathered about Samsung's 1080p DLPs: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=089d8abb2bcac71df9fa69f04eaf555f&threadid=493443 Many other manufacturers have also announced 1080p DLP/3LCD/LCoS rear projection models to come out in the second half of the year. Also, if you're willing to go smaller (~35" - 46"), I think you can buy 1080p LCD flat panels already. -- Gregorio Gervasio, Jr. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
Michael T. Dean wrote: it's been impossible to buy a brand new TV that supports full 1080i resolution pretty much since the introduction of DLP. i think you mean 1080p? ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
[mythtv-users] [OT] *Real* High-Def TV!
One reason that I haven't yet purchased a high-definition TV is the fact that TV's being sold today do not fully support the ATSC standard. Whereas the maximum resolution allowable in the ATSC standard is 1920x1080 pixels, today's TV's only support 1280x720 pixels resolution. While it's true that some manufacturers actually sold TV's supporting a full 1920x1080 pixels in the past (mainly CRT's and a few LCOS sets) and that you can buy high-end (=$45K) projectors that can fully resolve 1920x1080 pixels, it's been impossible to buy a brand new TV that supports full 1080i resolution pretty much since the introduction of DLP. Since the entire point of 1080i is better picture quality (=2x the pixels) at the expense of frame rate, I didn't like the idea of buying a 1280x720 TV as the benefit of 1080i would be completely lost. So, anyway, I've been watching for someone to come out with a 1920x1080 TV and it seems that Samsung is planning to release the HLR6768W in the June/July timeframe ( http://www.cnet.com/4520-10602_1-5619186-1.html and http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/news/ny-i4252140may10,0,1418798.story ). There have been rumors that the TV has been put on hold, but they seem to be unfounded. The TV is in their DLP line and uses a new TI chip. It's a 67" TV and has an MSRP of about $6K Maybe once more vendors are carrying similar solutions, prices will drop. I guess after June, the only reason I'll have left for not buying an HDTV is the $$$. Anyone know of any others available or on the horizon? Mike BTW, I don't work for Samsung--I simply appreciate the fact that someone finally got HDTV right (again :). ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
