Re: [mythtv-users] Re: recording HD content
Brad Templeton wrote: On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 11:10:01AM -0400, Joseph A. Caputo wrote: Now I'm confused... are you saying that the cable co. is allowed to encrypt or downres firewire output even for 'broadcast equivalent' channels, and that only the raw QAM signal for such channels must be available in the clear? Dunno about down-res, but they are allowed (and expected to) use the DTCP (5C) protocol on the 1394 port in the cable box. This protocol has the cable box talk to the receiving end and confirm that it also speaks DTCP, which only happens if it has pledged not to let the content out. And if the device connected to the 1394 port (or any other digital port) is not recognized as DTCP-compliant, any broadcast-flag protected content output over the port *must* be down-res'ed to no higher than 480p. Mike ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Re: recording HD content
Thus spake Brad Templeton: > Right now the cable boxes aren't doing this, so enjoy it while we can! > But the law, as we understand it, doesn't forbid them from doing it. Sigh. I think my cable company just started doing this recently - I can no longer dump awe-inspiring HD streams from my 6200 (I get a few hundred kb of data). -- Nathan Poznick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. -- Arthur C. Clarke signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Re: recording HD content
On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 11:10:01AM -0400, Joseph A. Caputo wrote: > Now I'm confused... are you saying that the cable co. is allowed to > encrypt or downres firewire output even for 'broadcast equivalent' > channels, and that only the raw QAM signal for such channels must be > available in the clear? > Dunno about down-res, but they are allowed (and expected to) use the DTCP (5C) protocol on the 1394 port in the cable box. This protocol has the cable box talk to the receiving end and confirm that it also speaks DTCP, which only happens if it has pledged not to let the content out. So Tivo could get a DTCP licence, for example, so that the set top box will send the data out over 1394 for the Tivo. That's because Tivo will have promised not to let the user get at the data -- to store it on disk encrypted, to not send it out except via analog ports or to other DTCP devices (including 1394/DTVLink equipped TVs.) Problem is Myth can't get a DTCP licence. So it won't be able to convince the cable box to trust it and send the data. Right now the cable boxes aren't doing this, so enjoy it while we can! But the law, as we understand it, doesn't forbid them from doing it. Not that the cable companies themselves are all that keen to do it. It's the studios that insist they will not let the cable companies have their movies if they don't do it, though they are probably not telling the truth when they insist this. Since the Djinni is out of the bag already with thousands of pre-BF ATSC cards, it's possible they might not care so much on the broadcast channels. However, it is probably false to hope that your cable box will continue to spit out HBO-HD to any device, in the clear. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Re: recording HD content
On Friday 22 April 2005 20:35, Brad Templeton wrote: > On Wed, Apr 13, 2005 at 03:18:57PM -0400, Joseph A. Caputo wrote: > > > > > > Indeed, you're both right that the broadcast flag is not directly > > > germane as it applies to broadcast digital TV and this is a > > > regulation > > > on cable providers, but I believe you are missing the fact that > > > this > > > is part of an equivalent set of regulations that mirror the effect > > > of > > > the broadcast flag in the cable world. You will find the > > > regulation > > > you > > > cite above loaded with copy protection rules. As I read it, the > > > rules > > > are not out to give plain old computers like MythTV access to in > > > the > > > clear > > > HD streams over 1394. > > > > Incorrect. The FCC regs explicitly state that any device advertised > > as > > "digital cable ready" or "digital cable compatible" must have an > > enabled 1394 port (unless grandfathered), and must output the > > unmodified digital stream for any broadcast-equivalent signal over > > said > > port. That means if you can get NBC-HD OTA, then if your digital > > cable > > provider carries the same NBC-HD station, they must output the > > unencrypted HD stream for that station over firewire. They may not > > "down-resolution" the content for OTA equivalent stations, either. > > Following up on this old thread, I checked with our lawyers, and they > confirm that the Cable companies are able to make the 1394 port only > output with DTCP (also known as 5C Entity copy protection). This > means that the port will refuse to send the high-def video to any > device > that isn't blessed as compliant with DTCP, ie. not a computer running > Myth. > > Right now most appear not to be doing this, perhaps caught by surprise > by the regs that force them to provide a 1394 output on demand. It > is expected, based on past trends, that they will eventually adapt > their 1394 ports this way, and you will only be able to plug them > into DTCP compliant devices, such as TV Sets and presumably the > Tivo and other partner PVRs. But sadly, not myth. Of course we > can enjoy it while it lasts, for all I know it may last a while. > > The Plug and Play regs continue to require them to provide the over > the air stations in high-def unencrytped QAM without down-res. Now I'm confused... are you saying that the cable co. is allowed to encrypt or downres firewire output even for 'broadcast equivalent' channels, and that only the raw QAM signal for such channels must be available in the clear? -JAC ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Re: recording HD content
On Sat, Apr 23, 2005 at 07:45:55AM -0400, William wrote: > > Tivo and other partner PVRs. But sadly, not myth. Of course we > > can enjoy it while it lasts, for all I know it may last a while. > > > > The Plug and Play regs continue to require them to provide > > the over the air stations in high-def unencrytped QAM without > > down-res. > > > > Of course there is the strong possibility that shortly after the devices > start expecting a qualified handshake some smart person will write code to > emulate a qualified device and we will be able to receive all channels > again. Something similar to the decss code for DVD decoding. Illegal in some > places but still generally available. You can't really "emulate" the handshake per se, it's based on cryptographic keys and certified digital signatures I believe, with a fancy key revocation system. You might be able to get into the chips in compliant TVs and PVRs and extract the keys. It's a lot less likely (though not impossible) that the cryptotsystem itself might be cracked, as was the case for CSS in DVDs. But CSS was a pretty weak cryptosystem. In the words of the CSS folks when it was cracked, "We were surprised it took this long." If you extract the keys and you put that in a published module, they will revoke the keys, they say. If you crack the system then they can't stop you so easily. There may be other flaws in their system, of course, we'll only see once it gets subject to lots of attack. As you suggest, use of either a hole in the system or a cracked key would probably violate the law in the USA. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
RE: [mythtv-users] Re: recording HD content
> Tivo and other partner PVRs. But sadly, not myth. Of course we > can enjoy it while it lasts, for all I know it may last a while. > > The Plug and Play regs continue to require them to provide > the over the air stations in high-def unencrytped QAM without > down-res. > Of course there is the strong possibility that shortly after the devices start expecting a qualified handshake some smart person will write code to emulate a qualified device and we will be able to receive all channels again. Something similar to the decss code for DVD decoding. Illegal in some places but still generally available. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Re: recording HD content
On Wed, Apr 13, 2005 at 03:18:57PM -0400, Joseph A. Caputo wrote: > > > > Indeed, you're both right that the broadcast flag is not directly > > germane as it applies to broadcast digital TV and this is a regulation > > on cable providers, but I believe you are missing the fact that this > > is part of an equivalent set of regulations that mirror the effect of > > the broadcast flag in the cable world. You will find the regulation > > you > > cite above loaded with copy protection rules. As I read it, the > > rules > > are not out to give plain old computers like MythTV access to in the > > clear > > HD streams over 1394. > > Incorrect. The FCC regs explicitly state that any device advertised as > "digital cable ready" or "digital cable compatible" must have an > enabled 1394 port (unless grandfathered), and must output the > unmodified digital stream for any broadcast-equivalent signal over said > port. That means if you can get NBC-HD OTA, then if your digital cable > provider carries the same NBC-HD station, they must output the > unencrypted HD stream for that station over firewire. They may not > "down-resolution" the content for OTA equivalent stations, either. Following up on this old thread, I checked with our lawyers, and they confirm that the Cable companies are able to make the 1394 port only output with DTCP (also known as 5C Entity copy protection). This means that the port will refuse to send the high-def video to any device that isn't blessed as compliant with DTCP, ie. not a computer running Myth. Right now most appear not to be doing this, perhaps caught by surprise by the regs that force them to provide a 1394 output on demand. It is expected, based on past trends, that they will eventually adapt their 1394 ports this way, and you will only be able to plug them into DTCP compliant devices, such as TV Sets and presumably the Tivo and other partner PVRs. But sadly, not myth. Of course we can enjoy it while it lasts, for all I know it may last a while. The Plug and Play regs continue to require them to provide the over the air stations in high-def unencrytped QAM without down-res. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Re: recording HD content
On Wednesday 13 April 2005 0:51, Brad Templeton wrote: > On Tue, Apr 12, 2005 at 05:27:08PM -0700, Ian Forde wrote: > > On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 16:16 -0700, John Sturgeon wrote: > > > Ian Forde wrote: > > http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/110105? > > search_string=Ian%20firewire%20caputo;#110105 > > > > And the specific FCC regulation we were talking about is available > > at > > http://makunu.com/browse/show/37812 > > > > Besides, the broadcast flag wasn't part of the topic (in my mind, at > > least) until you brought it up... > > Indeed, you're both right that the broadcast flag is not directly > germane as it applies to broadcast digital TV and this is a regulation > on cable providers, but I believe you are missing the fact that this > is part of an equivalent set of regulations that mirror the effect of > the broadcast flag in the cable world. You will find the regulation > you > cite above loaded with copy protection rules. As I read it, the > rules > are not out to give plain old computers like MythTV access to in the > clear > HD streams over 1394. Incorrect. The FCC regs explicitly state that any device advertised as "digital cable ready" or "digital cable compatible" must have an enabled 1394 port (unless grandfathered), and must output the unmodified digital stream for any broadcast-equivalent signal over said port. That means if you can get NBC-HD OTA, then if your digital cable provider carries the same NBC-HD station, they must output the unencrypted HD stream for that station over firewire. They may not "down-resolution" the content for OTA equivalent stations, either. -JAC ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Re: recording HD content
On Tue, Apr 12, 2005 at 05:27:08PM -0700, Ian Forde wrote: > On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 16:16 -0700, John Sturgeon wrote: > > Ian Forde wrote: > http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/110105? > search_string=Ian%20firewire%20caputo;#110105 > > And the specific FCC regulation we were talking about is available at > http://makunu.com/browse/show/37812 > > Besides, the broadcast flag wasn't part of the topic (in my mind, at > least) until you brought it up... Indeed, you're both right that the broadcast flag is not directly germane as it applies to broadcast digital TV and this is a regulation on cable providers, but I believe you are missing the fact that this is part of an equivalent set of regulations that mirror the effect of the broadcast flag in the cable world. You will find the regulation you cite above loaded with copy protection rules. As I read it, the rules are not out to give plain old computers like MythTV access to in the clear HD streams over 1394. The goal of these FCC regulations (at least the parts not directly dictated by the industry :-() was to mandate interfaces so consumers could choose components from different companies and they would all send lovely digital TV amongst themselves. Buy your set top box or PVR from one company, get your cablecard from your cable company, your TV from another company and be digital all the way to the TV. Great concept, if they hadn't saddled it with copy protection rules that mean the components can only come from _large_ companies that make non-open equipment. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Re: recording HD content
On Tue, Apr 12, 2005 at 04:07:22PM -0700, Ian Forde wrote: > On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 15:30 -0500, Neil wrote: > > > The locals won't end (though they might drop to SD on the firewire) but > > > the > > > non-locals could go away. > > > > Thanks for the tip Brad. I'm looking into firewire but on my other posts, > > the guy told me that it may soon be encrypted too. :( > > First of all, the "though they might drop to SD on the firewire" is FUD. > If it's the HD version of NBC, they're not allowed to transcode it down, > according to the FCC. I am not sure you use the same definition of FUD as I do (FUD is a vendor activity) but in any event, are you saying that the 1394 mandate does not include DTCP for the high def signals? My understanding is that the long term plan is that while you can demand a 1394 port on your set-top box, the cablecos can and will put in DTCP so that the 1394 port will not send unencrypted streams to a non-DTCP compliant computer, such as a MythTV box or Mac. Except for what they are expected to provide in the clear, namely the SD versions of local stations. Do you know otherwise? ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Re: recording HD content
On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 16:16 -0700, John Sturgeon wrote: > Ian Forde wrote: > > >On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 15:30 -0500, Neil wrote: > > > > > >>>The locals won't end (though they might drop to SD on the firewire) but the > >>>non-locals could go away. > >>> > >>> > >>Thanks for the tip Brad. I'm looking into firewire but on my other posts, > >>the guy told me that it may soon be encrypted too. :( > >> > >> > > > >First of all, the "though they might drop to SD on the firewire" is FUD. > >If it's the HD version of NBC, they're not allowed to transcode it down, > >according to the FCC. > > > > -I > > > > > > > ??? What have you been reading? The Broadcast Flag (when enabled) will > not only allow them to transcode it down, it will force them to > transcode it. Once the broadcast flag takes effect, the hardware > manufacturers are going to only be able to output (digitally) SD > quality. Analog is a different matter, obviously. That's what all the > 'Fight the broadcast flag' stink has been about. ... http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/110105? search_string=Ian%20firewire%20caputo;#110105 And the specific FCC regulation we were talking about is available at http://makunu.com/browse/show/37812 Besides, the broadcast flag wasn't part of the topic (in my mind, at least) until you brought it up... -I ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Re: recording HD content
Ian Forde wrote: On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 15:30 -0500, Neil wrote: The locals won't end (though they might drop to SD on the firewire) but the non-locals could go away. Thanks for the tip Brad. I'm looking into firewire but on my other posts, the guy told me that it may soon be encrypted too. :( First of all, the "though they might drop to SD on the firewire" is FUD. If it's the HD version of NBC, they're not allowed to transcode it down, according to the FCC. -I ??? What have you been reading? The Broadcast Flag (when enabled) will not only allow them to transcode it down, it will force them to transcode it. Once the broadcast flag takes effect, the hardware manufacturers are going to only be able to output (digitally) SD quality. Analog is a different matter, obviously. That's what all the 'Fight the broadcast flag' stink has been about. -- John <>< ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Re: recording HD content
On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 15:30 -0500, Neil wrote: > > The locals won't end (though they might drop to SD on the firewire) but the > > non-locals could go away. > > Thanks for the tip Brad. I'm looking into firewire but on my other posts, > the guy told me that it may soon be encrypted too. :( First of all, the "though they might drop to SD on the firewire" is FUD. If it's the HD version of NBC, they're not allowed to transcode it down, according to the FCC. -I ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
[mythtv-users] Re: recording HD content
Hi Brad, Brad Templeton writes: On Tue, Apr 12, 2005 at 01:34:57AM -0500, Neil wrote: Hi Joe, Hmmm. I think, if we send out the HD stream via s-video, quality is already degraded. Also, quality of s-video is just ok. Is there a way to preserve it just like how we do it in Air2PC? Remember, s-video is analog. HD content is digital. Not just that, s-video is NTSC. It's SDTV, or slightly less actually. It's not of interest to people who want HD. I would like to know if someone is doing this kind of recording. How is the picture quality? But will it really be able record the HD content if the receiver has an svideo out? Receivers that put out s-video either don't put it out for HD, or they down-convert it to SD. Not of use. There are no capture cards for HD that don't cost studio prices (many thousands of dollars.) People sometimes call the pcHDTV-3000 and air2pc "capture cards" but they aren't. They are tuner/demodulators that let you record an already digitized and compressed byte-stream and nothing else. However, on the plus side, on my cable system (comcast bay area) they do provide several HD channels in the clear over QAM. Not just the locals, but also ESPN-HD and Discovery HD, as well as some SD digital channels (OLN, History and a couple of others.) However, the bad news is, it could end at any time. (the ESPN and Discovery) Other people have been able to get boxes that put the HD out firewire. Also great, but also could end at any time. The locals won't end (though they might drop to SD on the firewire) but the non-locals could go away. Thanks for the tip Brad. I'm looking into firewire but on my other posts, the guy told me that it may soon be encrypted too. :( ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Re: recording HD content
On Tue, Apr 12, 2005 at 01:34:57AM -0500, Neil wrote: > Hi Joe, > Hmmm. I think, if we send out the HD stream via s-video, quality is already > degraded. Also, quality of s-video is just ok. Is there a way to preserve > it just like how we do it in Air2PC? Remember, s-video is analog. HD > content is digital. Not just that, s-video is NTSC. It's SDTV, or slightly less actually. It's not of interest to people who want HD. > I would like to know if someone is doing this kind of recording. How is the > picture quality? But will it really be able record the HD content if the > receiver has an svideo out? Receivers that put out s-video either don't put it out for HD, or they down-convert it to SD. Not of use. There are no capture cards for HD that don't cost studio prices (many thousands of dollars.) People sometimes call the pcHDTV-3000 and air2pc "capture cards" but they aren't. They are tuner/demodulators that let you record an already digitized and compressed byte-stream and nothing else. However, on the plus side, on my cable system (comcast bay area) they do provide several HD channels in the clear over QAM. Not just the locals, but also ESPN-HD and Discovery HD, as well as some SD digital channels (OLN, History and a couple of others.) However, the bad news is, it could end at any time. (the ESPN and Discovery) Other people have been able to get boxes that put the HD out firewire. Also great, but also could end at any time. The locals won't end (though they might drop to SD on the firewire) but the non-locals could go away. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] Re: recording HD content
Hopefully someone who really knows will jump in, but here's what I've found while trying to learn about HDTV and using a pcHDTV to capture it (or at least what I think I've learned, again, hopefully someone will correct anything I am wrong about): OTA HDTV is AKA as VSB. Whereas the content that is ran to you via your cable provider (Discovery HD, ESPN HD...) is known as QAM HDTV. Apparently there is some work being done, and people are posting all over the list on using QAM and it's working just fine for some, other's are getting there. So a short answer to your question, assuming my very little research is correct, would be yes you can. If I'm wrong, then I don't know :D Good Luck! On Apr 12, 2005 12:34 AM, Neil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Joe, > > Joe Votour writes: > > > I don't do HD myself (I guess I'm behind the times > > with my analog cable), but yes, it can be done. > > However, if you plan on using a system with a > > proprietary system (pretty much anything but OTA in > > the U.S.), then you'll have to use their set-top box > > to receive (and decrypt) the channels, and then record > > them on your MythTV machine. This can be done by > > Composite/S-Video, coaxial (if your set-top box > > outputs in coaxial) or (possibly) Firewire. > > Hmmm. I think, if we send out the HD stream via s-video, quality is already > degraded. Also, quality of s-video is just ok. Is there a way to preserve it > just like how we do it in Air2PC? Remember, s-video is analog. HD content is > digital. > > I would like to know if someone is doing this kind of recording. How is the > picture quality? But will it really be able record the HD content if the > receiver has an svideo out? > > > > > You'll also need to have some method for MythTV to > > switch channels on the set-top - either a serial cable > > (if supported on your set-top box) or an IR Blaster. > > Yep, I'm currently using a homebrew IR. > > > > > Also, note that apparently decoding HDTV in MythTV > > requires a pretty beefy CPU and video card. You > > should search the archives for suggestions from other > > people who are successfully doing this. > > No issues with my current machine since I'm already playing HD OTA content. > Quality is awesome. > > ___ > mythtv-users mailing list > mythtv-users@mythtv.org > http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users > ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
[mythtv-users] Re: recording HD content
Hi Joe, Joe Votour writes: I don't do HD myself (I guess I'm behind the times with my analog cable), but yes, it can be done. However, if you plan on using a system with a proprietary system (pretty much anything but OTA in the U.S.), then you'll have to use their set-top box to receive (and decrypt) the channels, and then record them on your MythTV machine. This can be done by Composite/S-Video, coaxial (if your set-top box outputs in coaxial) or (possibly) Firewire. Hmmm. I think, if we send out the HD stream via s-video, quality is already degraded. Also, quality of s-video is just ok. Is there a way to preserve it just like how we do it in Air2PC? Remember, s-video is analog. HD content is digital. I would like to know if someone is doing this kind of recording. How is the picture quality? But will it really be able record the HD content if the receiver has an svideo out? You'll also need to have some method for MythTV to switch channels on the set-top - either a serial cable (if supported on your set-top box) or an IR Blaster. Yep, I'm currently using a homebrew IR. Also, note that apparently decoding HDTV in MythTV requires a pretty beefy CPU and video card. You should search the archives for suggestions from other people who are successfully doing this. No issues with my current machine since I'm already playing HD OTA content. Quality is awesome. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
