Re: [mythtv-users] ITX vs ATX for dual-DVB system
>Can UK DVB-T actually support HDTV from a bandwidth viewpoint? >I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the bandwidth needed would >almost require a mux per TV channel, which considering they are lowering >the rates to cram evermore channels onto each mux would seem to something >that isn't going to happen... > >Would it also need new Freeview boxes and/or PCI cards? It would definitely need new set top boxes, but whether or not you'd need a new PCI card depends on what modulation scheme they opt for (i.e. whether or not they adpot the DVB-T standard). Anyway - who cares about HDTV? The current buzz here is all about getting crappy 320x240 video delivered (at huge cost) to mobile phones. O... I can't wait! BTW all you folks waiting for DVB-T to improve when analogue is switched off - don't hold your breath. People have plans (non TV plans) for that part of the spectrum. (UK govt. seeing s, the likes of the 3G auctions all over again). The big shock early HDTV adopters are going to get in the UK is when they find out the 'HD ready' plasma they paid lots of money for in 2005 won't work with the HD STB they buy in 2008 because it's not HDCP compliant :LOL: .I know the early HD $ky boxes will output 720i over component at first, but they'll be withdrawn soon enough. I'm not in any hurry for terrestrial, DRM-free HDTV to come along... I'm waiting for an **affordable** HDTV set to appear first - one which is **really** 'HD-ready'. Oh, and a HD disc **standard** will need to have emerged before I spend any money on new viewing kit. Justin. # This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared by NetIQ MailMarshal # ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] ITX vs ATX for dual-DVB system
> Not really. My context is about DVB-T; I won't be getting a satellite > dish any time soon. When sky start beaming HDTV is not what I care > about; what I care about is when terrestrial DVB might become HD, and I > honestly can't see that happening in 2006... Can UK DVB-T actually support HDTV from a bandwidth viewpoint? I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the bandwidth needed would almost require a mux per TV channel, which considering they are lowering the rates to cram evermore channels onto each mux would seem to something that isn't going to happen... Would it also need new Freeview boxes and/or PCI cards? ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] ITX vs ATX for dual-DVB system
Simon Kenyon wrote: On Sunday 09 October 2005 00:05, Nick wrote: On 08/10/05, Jules Bean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The system will be for watching DVB-T digital broadcast TV, as well as [snip] No HDTV; I doubt we'll have HDTV DVB in the UK for a few years. For few, read "likely when hell freezes over ...!" Just wait until [snip] or) 1080i. sky has announced that they will start broadcasting in early 2006. i am sure they will do so in time for the world cup (9th june 2006) -- simon ps so hell freezes over on the 8th june 2006 (at the latest) Not really. My context is about DVB-T; I won't be getting a satellite dish any time soon. When sky start beaming HDTV is not what I care about; what I care about is when terrestrial DVB might become HD, and I honestly can't see that happening in 2006... Jules ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] ITX vs ATX for dual-DVB system
On Sunday 09 October 2005 00:05, Nick wrote: > On 08/10/05, Jules Bean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The system will be for watching DVB-T digital broadcast TV, as well as > > DVDs. This means that it presumably doesn't need to be terribly > > powerful from a CPU point of view? No encoding or transcoding to do. > > It will be in the living room, under the TV, so it has to be quiet and > > look reasonable. No HDTV; I doubt we'll have HDTV DVB in the UK for a > > few years. > > For few, read "likely when hell freezes over ...!" Just wait until > they start pumping out proper 1080 video and all those people who > bought HDTV-ready plasmas and LCDs (with a native v-res of 720 pixels) > realise they've been shafted... taken from "http://www.eicta.org/files/LicenseAgreement-114914A.pdf"; the HD-Ready campaign being run in Europe defines HD-Ready thus: - 4. Requirements for the logo “HD ready” The EICTA "HD ready" Minimum Requirements for display devices are neutral towards the technology used (plasma, LCD, DLP, DLA, LCoS, CRT, ...) as well as the implementation thereof (flat panel, rear projection, front projection, direct view, ...). A display device has to cover the following requirements to be awarded the logo “HD ready”: 1. Display, display engine The minimum native resolution of the display or display engine is 720 physical lines in wide aspect ratio. 2. Video Interfaces The display device accepts HD input via Analogue YPbPr1, and DVI or HDMI HD capable inputs accept the following HD video formats 1280x720 @ 50 and 60Hz progressive (“720p”), and 1920x1080 @ 50 and 60Hz interlaced (“1080i”) The DVI or HDMI input supports content protection (HDCP) - so as you see HD-Ready means support for 720p and (note the and - it is not an or) 1080i. sky has announced that they will start broadcasting in early 2006. i am sure they will do so in time for the world cup (9th june 2006) -- simon ps so hell freezes over on the 8th june 2006 (at the latest) ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] ITX vs ATX for dual-DVB system
On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 00:05:28 +0100, Nick wrote: >On 08/10/05, Jules Bean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Does anybody have any feedback on this? It's the PCI riser I'm most >> scared about, I don't understand PCI deeply enough at the hardware >> level to know if they provide good enough performance for two DVB >> tuners running in parallel. > >The obvious solution - dual tuner DVB cards - are on the horizon, so >it depends how long you are prepared to wait! My Pundit-R system has 2 >PCI cards on a riser (PVR and DVB-T) with no problems. The data rates >transferred over the bus are very small compared to its capacity, so I >wouldn't expect to have any problems with just 2 cards. Via make a 2 slot pci riser card. It has on board circuitry to provide power and IRQ control to both slots. (Most PCI riser cards require that a small daughter finger card be put into the second PCI slot to provide those capabilities to the second PCI slot). The Via card is specifically for the Travla cases I think, as the rise of the card must match the case mounting for the boards. However, if your case has the wrong spacing, the answer is to use a flexible extension between the VIA board and the Via PCI riser. That way you can meet any reasonably combination of horizontal and vertical displacement between where the motherboard has its PCI slot and where the case has its rear mounting slots. Geoff R. Geoffrey Newbury [EMAIL PROTECTED] Barrister and Solicitor Telephone: 905-271-9600 Mississauga,Ontario, Canada Facsimile: 905-271-1638 ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] ITX vs ATX for dual-DVB system
On 10/10/05, Stutty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 10/10/05, Jules Bean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > In principle, given enough memory the livetv could be without hard disk, > > couldn't it? Just put the ringbuffer on a tmpfs filesystem? (How big is > > the ringbuffer) And then sort out the ACPI stuff so it can turn off the > > disks. Which hard disk was it, anyway? I'm looking at a 300G SATA maxtor > > which is 26dB - as far as i can tell, 26dB should be just about > > inaudible once put into a good quality case. > > The 26dB figure is misleading, visit > http://www.silentpcreview.com/article29-page1.html for more info. > > I've got a SAMSUNG 160GB spinpoint (PATA), which is actually very very > quiet, but because I have no fans in the case, it can't be > acoustically insulated, in fact it is better if it is fitted to the > sides of the case (which act as a heat sink). This unfortunately means > the drive vibrations get amplified by the case and then by the wooden > TV unit it sits on! I'd recommend sitting the case on silicone/rubber 'feet' to cushion the vibrations. I know that the Antec Sonata cases actually mount driver internally on small rubber mounts which seems to make a difference too. Nick ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] ITX vs ATX for dual-DVB system
On 10/10/05, Jules Bean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In principle, given enough memory the livetv could be without hard disk, > couldn't it? Just put the ringbuffer on a tmpfs filesystem? (How big is > the ringbuffer) And then sort out the ACPI stuff so it can turn off the > disks. Which hard disk was it, anyway? I'm looking at a 300G SATA maxtor > which is 26dB - as far as i can tell, 26dB should be just about > inaudible once put into a good quality case. The 26dB figure is misleading, visit http://www.silentpcreview.com/article29-page1.html for more info. I've got a SAMSUNG 160GB spinpoint (PATA), which is actually very very quiet, but because I have no fans in the case, it can't be acoustically insulated, in fact it is better if it is fitted to the sides of the case (which act as a heat sink). This unfortunately means the drive vibrations get amplified by the case and then by the wooden TV unit it sits on! The size of the ringbuffer is configurable, I think it's about 1 Gb, depends on how long you want to pause the stream and the bandwidth used by the channel. The powerdown of the HDD does work well, although the 2-3 second spin up time is not very wife friendly, and I'm not too convinced it does the drive too much good either. > I'm not currently taking this option seriously. It would be too > difficult to run a CAT5 cable down from the attic to the ground floor. Yes getting the cable down the from the roof was a bit traumatic, especially due to the thunderstorm that was so close it blew up my broadband router - not the best time to be in the attic feeding a cable down to the ground! > I was counting just on buying a very quiet fan. This is what I've got in the attic, an 8cm fan but only running a few volts through it rather than the full 12V, even this small amount of air flow makes alot of difference. Bear in mind the case I'm using downstairs is one from http://www.hushtechnologies.net/ - so the only way to get heat out the case is via conduction out of the sides, the TV cards really suffer. > Bear in mind I can't really claim to be a > purist since I have a PS2 (original black version) and they are pretty > damn loud... until recently, we watched all our DVDs on the PS2. This is exactly what we used to use, damn that fan is loud! > Hmm, I don't quite understand what you mean. Are you saying that the MII > 12000 lacks the horsepower for deinterlace? Do I need deinterlacing? I > somehow thought that was only necessary when displaying to a monitor, > rather than a TV screen, but maybe I'm exposing my ignorance there. If the original source is interlaced, deinterlacing on a monitor is essential, even some BBC DVD's are seem to be interlaced. > > I think I'm veering back towards the ATX box solution, partly because I > think it's going to be cheaper, and partly because I think it's going to > be less hassle. You're probably right this is how I started, got an old desktop and had a look at what Myth could do, but then I got hooked, and had to buy quieter and smaller components! Good luck with it, Paul ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] ITX vs ATX for dual-DVB system
On 10/10/05, Jules Bean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hmm, I don't quite understand what you mean. Are you saying that the MII > 12000 lacks the horsepower for deinterlace? Do I need deinterlacing? I > somehow thought that was only necessary when displaying to a monitor, > rather than a TV screen, but maybe I'm exposing my ignorance there. If you are using the unichrome drivers that provide hardware decoding you can use bob deinterlacing which results in great picture quality (imho) with pretty minimal cpu usage. James. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] ITX vs ATX for dual-DVB system
Stutty wrote: I originally went this route, but I'll never be completely satisfied until it is completely silent, and it isn't there yet (The 3.5" HD hums just too loud). In principle, given enough memory the livetv could be without hard disk, couldn't it? Just put the ringbuffer on a tmpfs filesystem? (How big is the ringbuffer) And then sort out the ACPI stuff so it can turn off the disks. Which hard disk was it, anyway? I'm looking at a 300G SATA maxtor which is 26dB - as far as i can tell, 26dB should be just about inaudible once put into a good quality case. I've have finally decided to bite the bullit and built a server in my loft. This solves all sorts of problems (loads of space for disks, loads of room for DVB cards, close to the arial for good reception, etc. etc.). I'm not currently taking this option seriously. It would be too difficult to run a CAT5 cable down from the attic to the ground floor. (In principle I could hijack the existing aerial cable on the assumption that it's not going to be needed any more, but I'm not happy doing that). It's also more expensive, of course. Until I've tried this out and satisfied myself that Myth suits me, I don't want to spend a thousand pounds on it... I got my riser card from another retailer, and it did not work on the EPIA SP, however Tranquil were kind enough to send a replacement and a prepaid envelope for return of the duff one. It's good to hear that their customer service is good! DVB cards seem to get very hot, especially if lying horizontally (as they will with this riser card), with no ventillation (you don't want fans in the living room), and in a small form factor case. I'm having 'issues' with the card in my living room setup (its a hush case), and I'm pretty sure they are temperature related. That's precisely what I feared; I could imagine horizontal DVB cards getting very hot, convection can't work very well at that angle. Mind you I was never expecting to be able to get a combined BE/FE to work entirely fanless, that sounds too much to hope for. I was counting just on buying a very quiet fan. Bear in mind I can't really claim to be a purist since I have a PS2 (original black version) and they are pretty damn loud... until recently, we watched all our DVDs on the PS2. I'm using an EPIA MII 12000 for the living room PC, and it doesn't really provide a perfect solution, but it is adequate. Turning on deinterlace & doing lots of On-Screen-Display (e.g. browsing channels) changes cause lots of prebuffering. Hmm, I don't quite understand what you mean. Are you saying that the MII 12000 lacks the horsepower for deinterlace? Do I need deinterlacing? I somehow thought that was only necessary when displaying to a monitor, rather than a TV screen, but maybe I'm exposing my ignorance there. I think I'm veering back towards the ATX box solution, partly because I think it's going to be cheaper, and partly because I think it's going to be less hassle. Cheers, Jules ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] ITX vs ATX for dual-DVB system
On 09/10/05, Michael T. Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Nick wrote: > > >Just wait until > >they start pumping out proper 1080 video and all those people who > >bought HDTV-ready plasmas and LCDs (with a native v-res of 720 pixels) > >realise they've been shafted... > > > > > I'm completely amazed at how few people I've talked to feel like they > got "shafted" when they purchased their 720p displays. Now that Samsung > and Mitsubishi have 1080p DLP's and 1080P LCD's are starting to become > commonplace, I've talked with a bunch of people who own 720p TV's and > they all seem to just see it as "normal." (Note: Bear in mind these comments are from the UK where there is no HDTV service available.) Having talked to a number of retailers in my area and asking them "what does HD mean to you" I was told that as far as they're concerned (assuming they even understood what HDTV is), they (the manufacturers) still haven't nailed down what it means when you buy a display sold as HD-ready. Assuming we're currently about 6 years behind the States (I first saw a HDTV in San Francisco in mid-2000) I'm certainly going to be interested in following its uptake. With Sky initially launching HD on a few channels next year, it seems to me that the current displays being sold as "HD-ready" are basically inimum-spec inventory clearouts before the service actually starts and consumers are more educated in what they actually require (in terms of various inputs and resolution),whether they can perceive a difference between 720 and 1080 video, and of course the price differential. (Please note I haven't seen 1080 video scaled down to 720 on a HDTV). > It seems that people have become so accustomed to buying a computer > that's obsolete by the time they get it home that they even see the > 1080p displays as "normal technological progression." Some are even > considering upgrading their 720p displays. Pretty amazing that people > think nothing of a $3000 TV becoming obsolete within a couple of years. I'm hoping that with HDTV defined as a standard, and with HD-DVD coming too, good 1080 displays are available quickly here in the UK. The current throw-away culture presents a massive issue (especially when something breaks down but is not economically viable to repair due to parts costs set by manufacturers) so I'm hoping that when I do buy a HDTV set, I'm happy to keep it for the forseeable and don't have that 'if only it was 1080' nag in the back of my mind.. Nick ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] ITX vs ATX for dual-DVB system
I originally went this route, but I'll never be completely satisfied until it is completely silent, and it isn't there yet (The 3.5" HD hums just too loud). I've have finally decided to bite the bullit and built a server in my loft. This solves all sorts of problems (loads of space for disks, loads of room for DVB cards, close to the arial for good reception, etc. etc.). I'm actually using a EPIA SP 8000 for the server, does a grand job, using the Active PCI riser card you highlighted, works a treat. Things to note: I got my riser card from another retailer, and it did not work on the EPIA SP, however Tranquil were kind enough to send a replacement and a prepaid envelope for return of the duff one. DVB cards seem to get very hot, especially if lying horizontally (as they will with this riser card), with no ventillation (you don't want fans in the living room), and in a small form factor case. I'm having 'issues' with the card in my living room setup (its a hush case), and I'm pretty sure they are temperature related. I'm using an EPIA MII 12000 for the living room PC, and it doesn't really provide a perfect solution, but it is adequate. Turning on deinterlace & doing lots of On-Screen-Display (e.g. browsing channels) changes cause lots of prebuffering. Hope this helps! Paul On 10/8/05, Jules Bean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm slowly getting up the nerve to make a hardware purchase and start > building my first myth box. So, I'm looking for some advice. I've read > the docs, and the howtos, but there are still a couple of decisions > I'd appreciate advice on. > > The system will be for watching DVB-T digital broadcast TV, as well as > DVDs. This means that it presumably doesn't need to be terribly > powerful from a CPU point of view? No encoding or transcoding to do. > It will be in the living room, under the TV, so it has to be quiet and > look reasonable. No HDTV; I doubt we'll have HDTV DVB in the UK for a > few years. > > One of the key branch points seems to be on the source of TV-OUT > support. On the one hand their are the cute little VIA boards with > built in TV-OUT, a graphics chip well supported under linux, in the > mini-ITX form factor. The problem with these is that I really want 2 > tuners, and I don't much like the idea of USB tuners dangling off the > back of what is supposed to be a neat little machine. It *is* possible > to buy 2-card PCI risers, but I don't know if they are reliable, or if > they even fit inside the > cases. (http://www.tranquilpc-shop.co.uk/acatalog/PCI_Risers.html) > (but only the most expensive epia, the EPIA SP has SATA, and I think I > probably want SATA?) > > The other approach would be a standard mini-ATX motherboard, in a case > large enough to take at least low-profile PCI cards (the AverTV 771 is > low-profile, I believe). This would probably mean a socket 939 setup > with a cheap AMD64 chip and some expensive quiet fans, and an > expensive quiet case. But the sticker is the graphics card. I gather > that most people on this list are either using the TV-OUT abilities of > their Haupage PVR cards, or are using GeForce cards. A Haupage is > clearly pointless in a DVB-only setup, and I really, really, really > don't want to have an nvidia card, and nvidia's closed drivers, on the > box. The sensible option then seems to be a cheapo Radeon 9250 TV-OUT, > which is supported by the gatos drivers. > > Does anybody have any feedback on this? It's the PCI riser I'm most > scared about, I don't understand PCI deeply enough at the hardware > level to know if they provide good enough performance for two DVB > tuners running in parallel. > > Many thanks for any advice anyone can offer, > > Jules Bean > > ___ > mythtv-users mailing list > mythtv-users@mythtv.org > http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users > ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] ITX vs ATX for dual-DVB system
Nick wrote: Just wait until they start pumping out proper 1080 video and all those people who bought HDTV-ready plasmas and LCDs (with a native v-res of 720 pixels) realise they've been shafted... I'm completely amazed at how few people I've talked to feel like they got "shafted" when they purchased their 720p displays. Now that Samsung and Mitsubishi have 1080p DLP's and 1080P LCD's are starting to become commonplace, I've talked with a bunch of people who own 720p TV's and they all seem to just see it as "normal." It seems that people have become so accustomed to buying a computer that's obsolete by the time they get it home that they even see the 1080p displays as "normal technological progression." Some are even considering upgrading their 720p displays. Pretty amazing that people think nothing of a $3000 TV becoming obsolete within a couple of years. Just an observation . . . for what it's worth. Mike ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] ITX vs ATX for dual-DVB system
On 08/10/05, Jules Bean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The system will be for watching DVB-T digital broadcast TV, as well as > DVDs. This means that it presumably doesn't need to be terribly > powerful from a CPU point of view? No encoding or transcoding to do. > It will be in the living room, under the TV, so it has to be quiet and > look reasonable. No HDTV; I doubt we'll have HDTV DVB in the UK for a > few years. For few, read "likely when hell freezes over ...!" Just wait until they start pumping out proper 1080 video and all those people who bought HDTV-ready plasmas and LCDs (with a native v-res of 720 pixels) realise they've been shafted... > One of the key branch points seems to be on the source of TV-OUT > support. On the one hand their are the cute little VIA boards with > built in TV-OUT, a graphics chip well supported under linux, in the > mini-ITX form factor. The problem with these is that I really want 2 > tuners, and I don't much like the idea of USB tuners dangling off the > back of what is supposed to be a neat little machine. It *is* possible > to buy 2-card PCI risers, but I don't know if they are reliable, or if > they even fit inside the > cases. (http://www.tranquilpc-shop.co.uk/acatalog/PCI_Risers.html) > (but only the most expensive epia, the EPIA SP has SATA, and I think I > probably want SATA?) SATA provides better airflow in a small case (much better cable management if the board builders manage to orient the SATA plug the correct way and close to the HDD cage (and supply a short cable). If you want to keep things simple, make sure the SATA controller is supported by the distro's kernel. > The other approach would be a standard mini-ATX motherboard, in a case > large enough to take at least low-profile PCI cards (the AverTV 771 is > low-profile, I believe). This would probably mean a socket 939 setup > with a cheap AMD64 chip and some expensive quiet fans, and an > expensive quiet case. But the sticker is the graphics card. I gather > that most people on this list are either using the TV-OUT abilities of > their Haupage PVR cards, or are using GeForce cards. A Haupage is > clearly pointless in a DVB-only setup, and I really, really, really > don't want to have an nvidia card, and nvidia's closed drivers, on the > box. The sensible option then seems to be a cheapo Radeon 9250 TV-OUT, > which is supported by the gatos drivers. Supported my the fglrx ATI drivers too I should think. I'm still happily using my ATI 9100IGP on-board TV-Out (haven't swapped back the PVR-350 now that the xv support is there) and have not problems at all (aside from a very slight trapezoid distortion on the LHS) > Does anybody have any feedback on this? It's the PCI riser I'm most > scared about, I don't understand PCI deeply enough at the hardware > level to know if they provide good enough performance for two DVB > tuners running in parallel. The obvious solution - dual tuner DVB cards - are on the horizon, so it depends how long you are prepared to wait! My Pundit-R system has 2 PCI cards on a riser (PVR and DVB-T) with no problems. The data rates transferred over the bus are very small compared to its capacity, so I wouldn't expect to have any problems with just 2 cards. Nick ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
