Re: [mythtv-users] Idea for faster channel surfing

[Ross Campbell]

> Playing games with pre-buffering is probably a waste of time.
> It's difficult to say where the person will go next (e.g. Change from
> watching Channel 5 with Ch+-, Fav+-, Prev, '61', etc).  A much more useful
> approach was discussed a few weeks ago.  It's possible (with an
> ivtv-device) to get both the MPEG2 streamand the YUV stream at the same
> time.  WatchTV could use the raw YUV data in screen overlay (i.e. just
> like xawtv), while still ringbuffering up the MPEG2 stream.  If you hit
> pause, it'll switch you to the recorded stream.  If you change channels,
> you'll only have to wait for the tuner card to sync to a new channel and
> spit out YUV data fairly quick.
> 
> Again, most people in the know enough to code this up don't care,
> and I don't blame them.  There are lots of other more important tweaks to
> make.  I wish I had time to play with it.

I think this idea is great!

Nearly all people (besides us, of course...) use about 4 buttons on
their TV remote. (1) Off/on, (2) *one* of the channel change buttons,
(3) volume up, (4) volume down

Fast livetv channel changing ability would certainly help people
transition *to* MythTV and would definitely boost the initial WAF of
MythTV. ...and more new users means more developers in training to
work on more important tweaks:)


-Ross
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Re: [mythtv-users] Idea for faster channel surfing

[Cory Papenfuss]

But oddly, just reposted it yesterday in some other myth discussion
areas.  Something whose time has come -- if it weren't for the fact
that part of "getting" a PVR is to realize that channel surfing
is a silly idea.
	That's been the sentiment of most people on the list.  Bottom line 
is once you've used a PVR for a while, you hardly ever go 
"channel-surfing," since the signal/noise ratio is so low.

	Playing games with pre-buffering is probably a waste of time. 
It's difficult to say where the person will go next (e.g. Change from 
watching Channel 5 with Ch+-, Fav+-, Prev, '61', etc).  A much more useful 
approach was discussed a few weeks ago.  It's possible (with an 
ivtv-device) to get both the MPEG2 streamand the YUV stream at the same 
time.  WatchTV could use the raw YUV data in screen overlay (i.e. just 
like xawtv), while still ringbuffering up the MPEG2 stream.  If you hit 
pause, it'll switch you to the recorded stream.  If you change channels, 
you'll only have to wait for the tuner card to sync to a new channel and 
spit out YUV data fairly quick.

	Again, most people in the know enough to code this up don't care, 
and I don't blame them.  There are lots of other more important tweaks to 
make.  I wish I had time to play with it.

-Cory
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Re: [mythtv-users] Idea for faster channel surfing

[Brad Templeton]

On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 06:49:33PM -0600, Dan Littlejohn wrote:
> Noob question, but why is it necessary to have the buffer require a 2
> second start time?
> 
> Why could it not just drop frames at a rate not easily noticed until
> the buffer was full?  That would solve the surfing problem in a
> simpler way.

I think you probably mean to add frames, or am I misunderstand what you
are saying?

It varies from tuner to tuner, but many of them wait quite a while before
they decide they have a lock, and if the driver does this there is nothing
you can do to get around it.   They all seem to do it, as I am sure you
have seen how long it takes digital cable and satellite boxes to change
the channel.  When you combine those with a DTV it's murder.

I presume the DVRs like to sit a second or so behind live as a safety
margin.  I have not seen what happens if you try not to have that safety
margin, but if you are suggesting that you start as close to live as you
possibly can, and then slowly slide back a second (by adding duplicate
frames here and there) that sounds possible, if complex.

I maintain that the right thing to do is to realize you no longer need
to channel surf.  But it is tempting sometimes to our idle minds, so most
people never get fully weaned off of it, and they long for the old type
analog experience which allowed instant channel change.   You could pull
off quick change with several tuners as noted.

Far more interesting is quick back and forth among a set of channels
and recordings.   If it's live channels, you need a tuner for each one,
but quick flick back and forth between a tuner and a recording is
fully possible.

The Tivo has a bit of this.  I find it to be highly useful.  Generally
what happens is this.  Two people are watching a show they wish to watch
together.   One of them needs to go do something -- answer the phone,
bathroom, whatever.  You want to instantly zip to playing a different
source -- usually a recording -- that only you want to watch while the
other person is occupied.  As they walk back into the room you want to
push a single button and you're back to what you were watching together.

Kinda like surfing to another channel during commercials.

What's being said here is that to pause is not the action you want
when only one person in the needs to pause.  Instead you want quick
switch.

I do this a lot and it works quite well.


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Re: [mythtv-users] Idea for faster channel surfing

[Dan Littlejohn]

Noob question, but why is it necessary to have the buffer require a 2
second start time?

Why could it not just drop frames at a rate not easily noticed until
the buffer was full?  That would solve the surfing problem in a
simpler way.


On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 16:10:24 -0800, Brad Templeton
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 05:30:50PM -0500, Michael Starks wrote:
> 
> 
> > I had an idea about how the delay might be reduced when changing
> > channels.  In a 2+ tuner system, can one tuner "leapfrog" the other and
> > start buffering the next or previous channel, depending on the direction
> > the user is surfing?
> >
> > For example, I start at channel three.
> > Tuner two starts buffering channel four.
> > I go to channel four and start reading the buffer.
> > Tuner 1 starts buffering channel five.
> 
> Thought of this years ago and blogged it earlier on this year:
> 
> http://ideas.4brad.com/archives/000103.html
> 
> But oddly, just reposted it yesterday in some other myth discussion
> areas.  Something whose time has come -- if it weren't for the fact
> that part of "getting" a PVR is to realize that channel surfing
> is a silly idea.
> 
> 
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Re: [mythtv-users] Idea for faster channel surfing

[Brad Templeton]

On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 05:30:50PM -0500, Michael Starks wrote:
> I had an idea about how the delay might be reduced when changing
> channels.  In a 2+ tuner system, can one tuner "leapfrog" the other and
> start buffering the next or previous channel, depending on the direction
> the user is surfing?
> 
> For example, I start at channel three. 
> Tuner two starts buffering channel four.
> I go to channel four and start reading the buffer.
> Tuner 1 starts buffering channel five.

Thought of this years ago and blogged it earlier on this year:

http://ideas.4brad.com/archives/000103.html

But oddly, just reposted it yesterday in some other myth discussion
areas.  Something whose time has come -- if it weren't for the fact
that part of "getting" a PVR is to realize that channel surfing
is a silly idea.


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Re: [mythtv-users] Idea for faster channel surfing

[Mark L. Cukier]

Not only that, but this feature would become moot if one tuner were 
recording a program :-/


Dan Ferris wrote:
You would have to enable/disable this on the fly, for channel surfing.
it's obviously only workable for incremential surfing in one
direction (going up, or going down).
This would also be useful for switching channels back and forth (aka,
hitting the 'last' button)... but you would probably be recording
anyway.
On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 15:25:28 -0800, Cecil Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 

Hello,
Michael Starks wrote:
   

I had an idea about how the delay might be reduced when changing
channels.  In a 2+ tuner system, can one tuner "leapfrog" the other and
start buffering the next or previous channel, depending on the direction
the user is surfing?
For example, I start at channel three.
Tuner two starts buffering channel four.
 

What if what I want to switch to is channel 7?
   

I go to channel four and start reading the buffer.
Tuner 1 starts buffering channel five.

 

What if I want to go to channel 71?
   

Would this work?

 

Just my 2 cents...
Cecil
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Re: [mythtv-users] Idea for faster channel surfing

[Asher Schaffer]

I'm not sure how popular having favorites set. But what if the other
tuner tuned to the next favorite channel up or down depending on which
direction you are going.  Either that, or have a scan mode that would
change through the channels every 5 or 10 seconds, when you are in
that mode it then uses both tuners to stay one channel ahead.
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Re: [mythtv-users] Idea for faster channel surfing

[Dan Ferris]

You would have to enable/disable this on the fly, for channel surfing.
 it's obviously only workable for incremential surfing in one
direction (going up, or going down).

This would also be useful for switching channels back and forth (aka,
hitting the 'last' button)... but you would probably be recording
anyway.


On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 15:25:28 -0800, Cecil Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Michael Starks wrote:
> 
> >I had an idea about how the delay might be reduced when changing
> >channels.  In a 2+ tuner system, can one tuner "leapfrog" the other and
> >start buffering the next or previous channel, depending on the direction
> >the user is surfing?
> >
> >For example, I start at channel three.
> >Tuner two starts buffering channel four.
> >
> >
> What if what I want to switch to is channel 7?
> 
> >I go to channel four and start reading the buffer.
> >Tuner 1 starts buffering channel five.
> >
> >
> >
> What if I want to go to channel 71?
> 
> >Would this work?
> >
> >
> >
> Just my 2 cents...
> 
> Cecil
> 
> 
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>
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Re: [mythtv-users] Idea for faster channel surfing

[Cecil Watson]

Hello,
Michael Starks wrote:
I had an idea about how the delay might be reduced when changing
channels.  In a 2+ tuner system, can one tuner "leapfrog" the other and
start buffering the next or previous channel, depending on the direction
the user is surfing?
For example, I start at channel three. 
Tuner two starts buffering channel four.
 

What if what I want to switch to is channel 7?
I go to channel four and start reading the buffer.
Tuner 1 starts buffering channel five.
 

What if I want to go to channel 71?
Would this work?
 

Just my 2 cents...
Cecil
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Re: [mythtv-users] Idea for faster channel surfing

[Russ Dill]

> I had an idea about how the delay might be reduced when changing
> channels.  In a 2+ tuner system, can one tuner "leapfrog" the other and
> start buffering the next or previous channel, depending on the direction
> the user is surfing?
> 
> For example, I start at channel three.
> Tuner two starts buffering channel four.
> I go to channel four and start reading the buffer.
> Tuner 1 starts buffering channel five.
> 

I always thought that would be cool. It would also be cool if you
could do channel "flipping", ie, watch two shows at once, and when you
flip between them, it pauses the other show. Even better? Make it
transparent that something is being recorded when flipping channels.
(ie, if you have two tuners, and both are recording, you could flip
between them like they were the only two channels available)
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Re: [mythtv-users] Idea for faster channel surfing

[Lane Schwartz]

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 17:30:50 -0500, Michael Starks
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I had an idea about how the delay might be reduced when changing
> channels.  In a 2+ tuner system, can one tuner "leapfrog" the other and
> start buffering the next or previous channel, depending on the direction
> the user is surfing?
> 
> For example, I start at channel three.
> Tuner two starts buffering channel four.
> I go to channel four and start reading the buffer.
> Tuner 1 starts buffering channel five.
> 
> Would this work?

I have no idea if this would work, but I think it's a great idea.

Lane


-- 
"No, we've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11."
-- George W. Bush, 17 Sept 2003
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