dontaing bgp config files [Re: Risk of Internet collapse grows]
since we are on the subject of availability of good data, i'd like to ask the list what i have been contemplating for some time now. understanding of routing (especially inter-domain) in the research community is really primitive. this precludes us from having realistic routing models. we recently started working on understanding prevalent inter-domain routing policies. the ultimate goal is to improve the efficiency, robustness and expressiveness of routing protocols. http://www.cs.washington.edu/research/networking/policy-inference/ if you run a network that has choices to make (more than one BGP speaking neighbor), you can help us by donating your bgp config files. abstracted or anonymized versions are ok. http://www.cs.washington.edu/research/networking/policy-inference/donation.html further down the road, we'll need your help to better understand our findings. if you are willing to answer our (possibly naive) questions, please respond off-list; i am compiling a list of folks whom i can pester for answers. thanks, -- ratul
Re: Risk of Internet collapse grows
> Any chance the Rocketfuel project had a chance to map out UUNET/Worldcom > since the first run? not yet. but we intend to get to it soon; a lot of people have asked the same question. -- ratul On Sun, 1 Dec 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > There was also some interesting work done on the geographic location of > Internet resources done at Boston University: > > http://www.cs.bu.edu/techreports/pdf/2002-015-internet-geography.pdf > > Any chance the Rocketfuel project had a chance to map out UUNET/Worldcom > since the first run? > > > - Original Message - > From: Randy Bush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Friday, November 29, 2002 8:39 pm > Subject: Re: Risk of Internet collapse grows > > > > > > last year we *measured* isp maps as part of a research project > > called> rocketfuel and found that the marketing maps can differ > > significantly from > > > the real ones quite a bit because of lack-of-detail, outdated- > > ness, or > > > optimistic-projections. a paper describing the methodology and > > the maps > > > themselves can be found off: > > > http://www.cs.washington.edu/research/networking/rocketfuel/ > > > > and, aside from reversing the meaning of a comment you attribute > > to me, i heartily recommend this paper. > > > > randy > > > > > > >
Re: Risk of Internet collapse grows
There was also some interesting work done on the geographic location of Internet resources done at Boston University: http://www.cs.bu.edu/techreports/pdf/2002-015-internet-geography.pdf Any chance the Rocketfuel project had a chance to map out UUNET/Worldcom since the first run? - Original Message - From: Randy Bush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Friday, November 29, 2002 8:39 pm Subject: Re: Risk of Internet collapse grows > > > last year we *measured* isp maps as part of a research project > called> rocketfuel and found that the marketing maps can differ > significantly from > > the real ones quite a bit because of lack-of-detail, outdated- > ness, or > > optimistic-projections. a paper describing the methodology and > the maps > > themselves can be found off: > > http://www.cs.washington.edu/research/networking/rocketfuel/ > > and, aside from reversing the meaning of a comment you attribute > to me, i heartily recommend this paper. > > randy > > >
Re: Federal Reserve Risks Collapse Re: Risk of Internetcollapse grows
The validity of the data and assumptions made in the Grubesic paper is not the topic I intended to discuss, I did not write the paper and I am not the person that can answer questions or criticisms. I can sympathize with the difficulties of getting good data for the analysis that was endevoured, and the problems of publishing timely results. We found similar problems with the Boardwatch data (well noted in several posts) when doing related analysis, but I do believe that the paper does make an interesting contribution with the techniques it used - different from the assumptions and data. This is probably the biggest disconnect between the academic and operations community, in academia a greater value is placed on the analytice techniques created, and the data is a means to test those techniques or tools. What happens outside the ivory tower is often an after thought. This is a very general statement and varies considerably by discipline. Regardless it becomes a problem when real world data is being used to inform the policy creation process. This is the unusual situation we find ourselves in, and any and all feedback, commentary, and discussion is very valuable even flames. Hopefully we have a chance to get some in person come the February meeting. This thread has pointed out the pitfalls of research, but it would be interesting to discuss ways that cooperative efforts could be built to avoid these pitfalls. - Original Message - From: Sean Donelan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Saturday, November 30, 2002 6:04 am Subject: Re: Federal Reserve Risks Collapse Re: Risk of Internet collapse grows > On Fri, 29 Nov 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > What you decided to attack on the post was the defense of another > > researchers options of data and how current that data was. He used > > what was available to him at the time, end of statement. > > As long-time readers (or anyone with access to Google) know, > Boardwatch'sISP Directory as a data source has a long history of > problems going back > to the mid 1990's. It has been extensively discussed on this and > many,many other ISP mailing lists in the past. > > When you have limited or poor quality data, you need to be even more > careful about what conclusions you make. > > > If you could you use your expertise and creativity to help the > > research community produce better research instead of shooting > > everything down after the fact, something postitive might actually > > come from the effort. > > I have. > > If researchers are going to use Boardwatch's ISP Directory as a data > source, treat it like any other advertising directory (e.g. the Yellow > Pages). It is a poor source for engineering technical data. Its > a great source for comparing advertising budgets, marketing campaigns, > finding sales departments. > > >
Re: Spanning tree melt down ?
On Fri, 29 Nov 2002, Stephen Sprunk wrote: > This is a bit of culture shock for most ISPs, because an ISP exists to serve > the network, and proper design is at least understood, if not always adhered > to. In the corporate world, however, the network and support staff are an > expense to be minimized, and capital or headcount is almost never available > to fix things that are "working" today. I think you are mistaken. In most "ISPs" engineers are considered an unfortunate expense, to be reduced to bare bone minimum (defined as the point where network starts to fall apart, and irate customers reach CEO through the layers of managerial defenses). Proper design of corporate networks is understood much better than that of backbones (witness the unending stream of new magic backbone routing paradigms, which never seem to deliver anything remotely as useful as claimed), so the only explanation for having 10+ hops in spanning tree is plain old incompetence. > It didn't take 4 days to figure out what was wrong -- that's usually > apparent within an hour or so. What takes 4 days is having to reconfigure > or replace every part of the network without any documentation or advance > planning. Ditto. > My nightmares aren't about having a customer crater like this -- that's an > expectation. My nightmare is when it happens to the entire Fortune 100 on > the same weekend, because it's only pure luck that it doesn't. Hopefully, not all of their staff is sold on the newest magical tricks from OFRV, and most just did old fashioned L-3 routing design. --vadim
