Re: microsoft.com

[Danny McPherson]

*** ns2.nv.cox.net can't find www.windowsupdate.com: Non-existent 
host/domain
Some news outlets are reporting this is actually Microsoft's plan,

Sure it was, and it's probably the best thing MS could have done (for
themselves AND the larger Internet) given the circumstances.
After all, infected systems aren't going to stop scanning and DOS 
attacks
from a huge number of compromised hosts targeting windowsupdate.com
IPs is simply going to result in increased network utilization for a 
bunch
of garbage traffic that'll either be dropped as a result of congestion 
on
some networks, blackholed on others (from the folks that care no more
about MS being DOS attacked then the next guy, but do care about their
networks availability and the Internet in general), or hit some severely
crippled server(s).

MS has bugs, sure, and there's probably no excuse for lots of them.
However, it could have been linux or any other OS.  Folks give MS a
hard time for the same reason they give Cisco a hard time -- because
their products are nearly ubiquitous.  I'm not going to dive into some
huge rant here (others have articulated this point nicely already),
some folks are much more passionate than I about the issue and I
don't care to spend the cycles arguing something I care little about.
MS isn't going away any time soon, like it or not, and the only way
problems of this sort (that have been disclosed) are going to be
cleanly resolved is by end users patching their systems.
-danny

PS: If folks are going to rant about MS products being horrible they
might want to consider using non-MS products and posting to NANOG
from non-MS mail clients/systems *8^).

RE: East Coast outage?

[Eric Germann]

Load management is actually fairly common here in Ohio in the cooperative
electric utilities.  Residential users get rebates on heat pumps and water
heaters in exchange for allowing the utility to install RF controlled
interrupting switches on them.  Summer ironically isn't the problem for
them, its winter when they want to do peak demand management so as not to
ratchet into a higher wholesale demand rate class.

My guess is when it shakes out, the failure will be traced to a rather large
unit or interconnect tripping offline.  Since the load is relatively
constant if you look at the time in a short enough period, and you lose a
couple hundred MVA of feed onto the grid, the other generation on the grid
is going to attempt to absorb it.  It works just like a drill, in reverse.
If you put a sanding wheel onto a drill and press it into wood, it will drag
the drill down.  Opposite for generation.  Steam is driving the turbine,
which is producing power.  Throw more load on instantaneously, the rotor
will slow down.  Now the units can absorb slight variations in load, but
500MVA falling off quickly cannot be instantaneously absorbed.  So, the
rotor slows down.  As it slows down, the frequency drops.  When the
frequency gets low enough (and we're talking fractions of a Hz), protective
relaying kicks in and opens the breaker between the unit and the grid.  This
compounds the effect, because the 500MVA loss may cause another 100MVA in
units to trip off relatively close.  Now the grid has 600MVA to absorb and
that loads more units down, which drift farther down and they trip, which
adds another X MVA to the load and it justs keeps going.  Same thing can
happen in reverse to when the load is suddenly removed and the unit overruns
the frequency.

This effect was observed a couple of times for a muni electric I used to
work with.  They had a tie line to a IOU and when it opened in the summer
becuase of lightning, overload, etc, it would trip all their units off line
because the tie was carrying inbound on the order of 40% of their load.
Interestingly, it had effects on the IOU also, since the muni was consuming
watts, but supplying VAR's, trying to help maintain power factor on the IOU
system.  Units can only produce so many MVA's.  MVA = sqrt(MW ** 2 + MVAR **
2).  As reactive loads go up (like AC units in the summer), MVAR's go up.
According to the formula, MW production goes down since the unit can only
produce so many MVA's (its a nice right triangle, MVA is the hypotenuse, MW
is the horizontal and MVAR is the vertical and power factor is the cosine of
the angle.  With a purely resistive load like a light bulb, PF = 1 since
there are no VAR flows there [cos 0 = 1]).  They do cheat sometimes and use
capacitors or synchronous condensors/reactors (an overexcited motor which
looks like a variable capacitor, kind of cool) to try and equal out the
power factor.  The bite is, Joe Consumer doesn't pay for VAR's, he pays for
Watts.  But the transmission and distribution system has to account for and
carry the VAR flows also.  And if you size the lines and forget the VAR
flows, in the summer, things can go boom.

Everyone whines because of the "antiquated" system.  The system worked like
it should.  It may suck to be without power for 48 hours, but try 18 months
if the unit came apart.  You don't go to Ace Hardware and buy a new 50MVA
steam driven unit.  And the nukes tripping off was probably more an artifact
of frequency instability on the grid than a problem with the nukes
themselves.  Coal, gas or nuke, you still have to maintain frequency.  As an
old EE prof of mine said, the system will seek stability.  Seeking may be
nice like flow re-distribution, or it may be ugly like the rotor and frame
separating.  Either way, it ends up stable (albeit maybe in the field next
to the plant) ...


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
> Iljitsch van Beijnum
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 6:25 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: nanog list
> Subject: Re: East Coast outage?
>
>
>
> On vrijdag, aug 15, 2003, at 23:58 Europe/Amsterdam, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > Amount of energy generated must be balanced with the amount of energy
> > used
> > at any time. Otherwise Bad Things (tm) will happen. The shutown of the
> > grid is a very good thing compared to what it would have been had it
> > not
> > shutdown.
>
> It seems to me that the power guys are still living somewhere in the
> last century. Is it really impossible to absorb power spikes? We can go
> from utility to battery or the other way around in milliseconds, so it
> should be possible to activate something that can absorb a short spike
> much the same way. Balancing intermediate-term generation/usage
> mismatches should be possible by simply communicating with users. There
> is lots of stuff out there that switches on and off periodically (all
> kinds of cooling systems, battery charging, lights), so let it switch
> on o

Re: East Coast outage?

[David Lesher]

Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
> 
> > It seems to me that the power guys are still living somewhere in the 
> > last century. Is it really impossible to absorb power spikes? We can go 
> > from utility to battery or the other way around in milliseconds, so it 
> 
> How many kVA are *you* switching?
> 
> How many kVA are running through those big 765kv lines?
> 
> This is what a *circuit breaker* looks like at those sizes:
> 
> http://www.hhi.co.kr/english/IndustrialPowerSystem/product/highvoltage/product2-7.html
> 
> 8000 amps at 765kv.
> 
> And that's just to *break* the circuit without vaporizing itself in the process.


At last, someone with clue. But note the minor details missing in the url: 
price, and lead time.


Plus, the 'last century' guy needs to do a little math. Sure
we can store 50-500 joules. BFD. But the gap between that and that
768KV going flat out is many orders of magnitude more than between
oh 110BPS and OC-48.

The basic issue with all the power nets is really simple to
grasp, in NANOG terms:

Redundancy co$t$ -- who wants to pay??


The power industry had no telecom bubble to overbuild
facilities. It's easy to go from OC-48 to OC-96, right? It's far
far harder to double the capacity of a 500 mile or even a 100
mile line. 
FIRST, there's the money. 
Then there's the politics.
Only THEN do you hit the lead-time issue.
And then

And to put it another way...

You have a buncha OC circuits, and get hit by backhoe fade. After
you patch the fiber, you first have to junk the ci$co boxes at
both ends because they blew up when the fiber broke. To restart,
you then must get a sync signal from Hillsburo, get everything
all on key & in tune, and then you start the smallest box, the
next one, then finally  Do it wrong and you get another Star
Trek Bridge panel scene.







-- 
A host is a host from coast to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
& no one will talk to a host that's close[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead20915-1433

Re: East Coast outage?

[Vadim Antonov]

On 15 Aug 2003, Scott A Crosby wrote:

> I also think that its hard to appreciate the stability differences
> between shipping power a few hundred feet and shipping power 1000
> miles. It looks like that long-distance shipping is the root cause of
> the half-dozen major outages over the past 30 years.

Yep. That's why DC power transmission is the way to go. No potentially
harmful low-frequency EM emissions, too.

--vadim

Re: microsoft.com

[Valdis . Kletnieks]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:46:56 PDT, Avleen Vig said:

> To the point where it doesn't hurt my network, hurt other people, or
> cause me an increase in costs, I won't be going out of my way to defend
> MS. Frankly, it might be the only way they'll learn.
> Imaging the havok if every Windows virus tried to attack MS.

Well, the majority of the recent worms have gotten loose on MS's corporate net
and caused enough disruption to make the news, and there was the time that
windowsupdate.microsoft.com got nailed by CodeRed...

Oh.. wait.. you meant *intentionally* tried to attack


pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: East Coast outage?

[Scott A Crosby]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:25:14 +0200, Iljitsch van Beijnum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On vrijdag, aug 15, 2003, at 23:58 Europe/Amsterdam, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> 
> 
> > Amount of energy generated must be balanced with the amount of
> > energy used
> 
> > at any time. Otherwise Bad Things (tm) will happen. The shutown of
> > the grid is a very good thing compared to what it would have been
> > had it not
> 
> > shutdown.
> 
> It seems to me that the power guys are still living somewhere in the
> last century. Is it really impossible to absorb power spikes?

I don't know, but at least reading this IEEE Spectrum article:
http://www.ece.umr.edu/courses/f02/ee207/spectrum/Grid/ implies that
long distance transmission is full of strange and nonlinear effects
such as 'reactive power', voltage support, and other technical
concepts that made me conclude that there are nasty details that are
not widely known. Excerpts follow:

   Generators at another smallpower plant also tripped. The tripping
   was due to high reactive power output associated with supporting
   transmission voltage

** Reactive power sidebar:

   Reactive power consumption tends to depress transmission voltage,
   while its production or injection tends to support
   voltage. Transmission lines both consume it (because of their
   series inductance) and produce it (from their shunt capacitance).

   Because transmission line voltage is held relatively constant, the
   production of reactive power is nearly constant. Its consumption,
   however, is low at light load and high at heavy load.

   The variable net reactive-power requirements of a transmission line
   give rise to a voltage control problem. Generators and
   reactive-power compensation equipment must absorb reactive power
   during light load, and produce it during heavy load.

   In a general emergency, when there are outages and high loading on
   re-maining transmission lines, those lines consume reactive power
   that must be supplied by nearby generators and shunt capacitor
   banks. (Reactive power can be transmitted only over relatively
   short distances.)

   If reactive power cannot be supplied promptly enough in an area of
   decaying voltage, voltage may in effect collapse. Insufficient
   voltage support may in addition contribute to synchronous
   instability. --C.W.T.

** Done

Later it talks about how ''fast capacitor-bank switching in southern
Idaho would have contained the initial 2 July outages.''. It also says
something about: ''That August day, though, the power system
stabilizers at a large nuclear plant in Southern California were out
of service. (Power system stabilization at this location is especially
effective because it is near one end of the north-south intertie
oscillation mode.)''

I think to really understand the material above one needs to read
author's book: _Power System Voltage Stability_

I also think that its hard to appreciate the stability differences
between shipping power a few hundred feet and shipping power 1000
miles. It looks like that long-distance shipping is the root cause of
the half-dozen major outages over the past 30 years. Why is the
northwest getting power 800 miles away in Wyoming instead of putting
up their own plant?


Also, 'alternative generation' isn't there yet. For instance, from
California's wind energy site
http://www.energy.ca.gov/wind/overview.html The total output of all
13000 turbines in CA, *together* average only 400MW of unreliable
power over the course of a year. Diablo Canyon (nuclear, california)
produces five times this so does Jim Bridger (coal, wyoming). After 20
years of effort and subsidies, thats 1% of CA's energy use, and 10% of
what was imported today. http://currentenergy.lbl.gov/ca/

Scott

Northville and Ann Arbor, MI back on utility power

[Daryl G. Jurbala]

I'm getting happy pages about my sites in those areas since about 21:30
EST.  Looking much better.

Daryl G. Jurbala
Introspect.net Consulting
Tel: +1 215 825 8401
Fax: +1 508 526 8500
http://www.introspect.net

PGP Key and Adobe Digital Signature:
http://www.introspect.net/pgp  

Re: microsoft.com

[Avleen Vig]

On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 06:40:49PM -0500, Jack Bates wrote:
> I'm sure Microsoft is aware that many networks are severly pissed off 
> about the extra overhead they are enduring because of this worm. I think 
> my helpdesk said, "Fry 'em." While we'll continue monitoring and 
> cleaning up systems scanning for infections, the DOS side of the worm 
> and variants is rather tame and will be allowed through so long as it 
> meets standard egress/ingress policy. I just can't see a bunch of 
> already employee starved networks devoting more resources just to save 
> Microsoft from their own vulnerability.

Having dealt with many very annoying vulnerabilities in the past like
this (The numerous CodeRed varients/Nimda, Slammer, this), I'm fed up of
it.
To the point where it doesn't hurt my network, hurt other people, or
cause me an increase in costs, I won't be going out of my way to defend
MS. Frankly, it might be the only way they'll learn.
Imaging the havok if every Windows virus tried to attack MS.

-- 
Avleen Vig
Systems Administrator
Personal: www.silverwraith.com

Re: East Coast outage?

[Jason Slagle]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Joe Abley wrote:

> I don't recall any any incidents during which similar numbers of people
> lost all internet access, or all telephone access, for as long as the
> power has been out -- and it's difficult to imagine a scenario in which
> that could happen (other than another widespread power failure).
>
> Reliability is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

If the net as a whole had to run at only 10-15% excess capacity or suffer
EQUIPMENT damage to the components, it would have happened MANY times
already.  See ms blaster.

Jason


-- 
Jason Slagle - CCNP - CCDP
/"\ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
\ /   ASCII Ribbon Campaign  .
 X  - NO HTML/RTF in e-mail  .
/ \ - NO Word docs in e-mail .

RE: East Coast outage?

[Randy Bush]

>> i guess it would be amusing to read a power engineers'
>> mailing list discussing how the internet should have
>> been designed.
> Well, if the Internet ever has a major outage, they'll be
> entitled to share their opinions. Until then...

let's see, 7007, 128/8, ...

something comes to mind about black pots and similarly sooted kettles

randy

RE: East Coast outage?

[Pete Kruckenberg]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Randy Bush wrote:

> i guess it would be amusing to read a power engineers'
> mailing list discussing how the internet should have
> been designed.

Well, if the Internet ever has a major outage, they'll be
entitled to share their opinions. Until then...

Re: microsoft.com

[Jack Bates]

Crist Clark wrote:
Some news outlets are reporting this is actually Microsoft's plan,

  http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1105_2-5064433.html

I'm sure Microsoft is aware that many networks are severly pissed off 
about the extra overhead they are enduring because of this worm. I think 
my helpdesk said, "Fry 'em." While we'll continue monitoring and 
cleaning up systems scanning for infections, the DOS side of the worm 
and variants is rather tame and will be allowed through so long as it 
meets standard egress/ingress policy. I just can't see a bunch of 
already employee starved networks devoting more resources just to save 
Microsoft from their own vulnerability.

-Jack

Re: East Coast outage?

[alex]

> On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 05:52:49PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Rubbish.
> > 
> > If in order to make it viable such energy needs to be subsidized then it is 
> > not "affordable".
> 
> That's a rather amusing position for someone in the IP world to take.
> I seem to recall DARPA subsidizing research into packet-switched
> computer networks, which (I'm told) gave rise to this "Internet" thing
> I keep hearing about.

Actually there is a major difference - 

in one case you have fundamental R&D that results in "Internet"
in the other case you have a bunch of crybabies that cannot make in the
competitive energy market so they scream that the government should
subsidize their more costly energy.


Alex

Re: East Coast outage?

[alex]

> >> >Then run parts at 105-110% and it gets really hard.
> >> 
> >> The power industry designs a grid that runs so close to capacity that if^W 
> >> when something big fails, the whole grid shuts down in a cascade.  They 
> >> know it:
> >
> >Rubbish again. 
> >
> >Welcome to the wonderful world of physics. Ask your favourite physics
> >professor what does
> >
> > E1 = E2 
> >
> >in context of yesterdays events.
> 
> That's not really answering the question, and it's also not
> entirely right.
> 

[skip]

> But you *can't* just simplify this to Ein = Eout.

No, it is spinning physics that does not work - physics *is* simple as long
as one does not skip the linkage between different things:


Econsumed = Econsumed_productive + Qreleased + Wreqired

Econsumed_productive is what you actually used
Qreleased is the energy released in a form of a increase/decrease heat
Wrequired is the work required to get Econsumed.


Alex

RE: East Coast outage?

[Randy Bush]

i guess it would be amusing to read a power engineers' mailing list
discussing how the internet should have been designed.

randy

RE: East Coast outage?

[David Schwartz]

> For two, most of the things that consume power are not in
> fact consuming exactly a fixed amount of power.  Light bulbs
> go dimmer if you reduce voltage; electrical motors will produce
> less power (torque X rpm) if voltage drops, etc.  Minor blips
> are happening all the time in major grids, and the voltage is
> continuously varying up and down slightly.  If we had to keep
> voltage exactly constant, a real AC power system would be
> nigh-on impossible to build.

Part of the problem is that an increasing fraction of the grid will
actually draw more power as the voltage decreases. Switching power supplies
will maintain a constant output power provided their input voltage remains
in a reasonable window. Their efficiency is generally the highest at their
design nominal volatage. So a decrease in volage will require them to draw
more current both because more is needed for the same power and they'll need
more power.

As more and more of the load becomes 'smart', the resiliency starts to go
out of the system. To some extent, the same is true of things like cooling
systems. As the voltage drops, their duty cycle will increase, though this
problem manifests itself over a slightly longer term.

And, of course, you can't keep the voltage constant. It's the differences
in voltage that make the current flow.

DS

Re: East Coast outage?

[Valdis . Kletnieks]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:25:14 +0200, Iljitsch van Beijnum said:

> It seems to me that the power guys are still living somewhere in the 
> last century. Is it really impossible to absorb power spikes? We can go 
> from utility to battery or the other way around in milliseconds, so it 

How many kVA are *you* switching?

How many kVA are running through those big 765kv lines?

This is what a *circuit breaker* looks like at those sizes:

http://www.hhi.co.kr/english/IndustrialPowerSystem/product/highvoltage/product2-7.html

8000 amps at 765kv.

And that's just to *break* the circuit without vaporizing itself in the process.


pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: East Coast outage?

[alex]

> It seems to me that the power guys are still living somewhere in the 
> last century. Is it really impossible to absorb power spikes? We can go 
> from utility to battery or the other way around in milliseconds, so it 
> should be possible to activate something that can absorb a short spike 
> much the same way. Balancing intermediate-term generation/usage 
> mismatches should be possible by simply communicating with users. There 
> is lots of stuff out there that switches on and off periodically (all 
> kinds of cooling systems, battery charging, lights), so let it switch 
> on or off for a few minutes when the power network needs it to.

No, the problem is that by the time your users receive that information and
act upon it, you will either get a blackout (braker) or a blow up
(transformers becoming brakers).

The reason it takes long to restore the power is that to restore the power
to section "A" one needs to deliver the amount nearly equal to what the
section "A" needs at that specific time and that is a lot of calculatins.


Alex

RE: East Coast outage?

[Matthew Schlosser]

I guess the Department of Energy disagrees.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/wind/

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
> Iljitsch van Beijnum
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 5:28 PM
> To: Petri Helenius
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: East Coast outage?
>
>
>
> On vrijdag, aug 15, 2003, at 23:49 Europe/Amsterdam, Petri Helenius
> wrote:
>
> > And solar nor wind are good for base energy production so
> we´re stuck
> > with other methods unless you want to move IP packets only
> when it´s
> > windy.
>
> Or only have cooling when the sun shines.
>

RE: East Coast outage?

[Stephen J. Wilcox]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Ejay Hire wrote:

> I similar technology has been discussed before, and I believe it is still a
> viable option:  RFCs 1149 and 2549, Avian Carriers.  While avian carriers do
> present problems, (flapping, unpredictable delay, queuing issues, and buggy
> implementations (specifically lice and mites)), I believe they are a better
> option than IP via Balloon.  Balloons offer higher bandwidth (practically any
> payload size can be accommodated with a larger envelope), but the connection
> is much slower and less predictable than avian carrier.  Balloon carrier
> retransmits are very expensive and the TTL is affected by the cost of propane
> and the general wind direction.

Interesting, altho avian carriers is in the RFCs and has actually been used,
balloons have not, perhaps you should do an experiment to compare them ;p
 
> As an alternative, perhaps we should consider IP via dirigible.  A properly
> sized airship loaded with a high speed DVD-rw library comprising (tens of )
> thousands of discs providing a very high bandwidth, high latency, low loss (if
> helium is used instead of hydrogen) carrier might be an option.

Actually I think that was a spin-off of the thread not so long ago where they 
broke the data speed record. Carrying such a quantity of DVDs (or similar media) 
on a plane such as concorde does produce higher bandwidths than current "fat 
pipes"

Steve

> -Original Message-
> From: Petri Helenius [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 4:50 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Rich Casto
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: East Coast outage?
> 
> 
> > > subsidize) local power generation via renewable energy sources (e.g.
> > > solar, wind, hydro) it would go a long way towards solving this problem.
> >
> > Rubbish.
> >
> > If in order to make it viable such energy needs to be subsidized then it is
> > not "affordable".
> >
> And solar nor wind are good for base energy production so we´re stuck
> with other methods unless you want to move IP packets only when it´s windy.
> 
> Maybe we could attach the packets to hot air balloons and send them with the wind?
> 
> Pete
> 
> 
> 

Re: East Coast outage?

[George William Herbert]

>> >Then run parts at 105-110% and it gets really hard.
>> 
>> The power industry designs a grid that runs so close to capacity that if^W 
>> when something big fails, the whole grid shuts down in a cascade.  They 
>> know it:
>
>Rubbish again. 
>
>Welcome to the wonderful world of physics. Ask your favourite physics
>professor what does
>
>   E1 = E2 
>
>in context of yesterdays events.

That's not really answering the question, and it's also not
entirely right.

For one, even if we naively accept sum(Eproduced) = sum(Econsumed),
that says nothing about the amperage which can safely traverse
parts of the grid intertie wiring, switching facilities, etc.
If *those* are running at or slightly over capacity, and in
particular of all those facilities don't have at least N+1
and preferably N+M redundant actual capacity, then a single
point failure will produce a fatal cascading failure in the
system.  That appears to be what happened.

For two, most of the things that consume power are not in
fact consuming exactly a fixed amount of power.  Light bulbs
go dimmer if you reduce voltage; electrical motors will produce
less power (torque X rpm) if voltage drops, etc.  Minor blips
are happening all the time in major grids, and the voltage is
continuously varying up and down slightly.  If we had to keep
voltage exactly constant, a real AC power system would be
nigh-on impossible to build.

Our concerns with electrical capacity in terms of the interchange
grids having N+1 or N+M capacity, and having systems with enough
robustness and graceful failure modes, and having systems with
enough reserve generation capacity are all legitimate.  A lot of
other people are looking at that now, too.

But you *can't* just simplify this to Ein = Eout.


-george william herbert
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: East Coast outage?

[Jeff Aitken]

On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 05:52:49PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Rubbish.
> 
> If in order to make it viable such energy needs to be subsidized then it is 
> not "affordable".

That's a rather amusing position for someone in the IP world to take.
I seem to recall DARPA subsidizing research into packet-switched
computer networks, which (I'm told) gave rise to this "Internet" thing
I keep hearing about.

"Rubbish" indeed.


--Jeff

Re: East Coast outage?

[Iljitsch van Beijnum]

On vrijdag, aug 15, 2003, at 23:49 Europe/Amsterdam, Petri Helenius 
wrote:

And solar nor wind are good for base energy production so we´re stuck
with other methods unless you want to move IP packets only when it´s 
windy.
Or only have cooling when the sun shines.

Re: East Coast outage?

[Iljitsch van Beijnum]

On vrijdag, aug 15, 2003, at 23:58 Europe/Amsterdam, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

Amount of energy generated must be balanced with the amount of energy 
used
at any time. Otherwise Bad Things (tm) will happen. The shutown of the 
grid is a very good thing compared to what it would have been had it 
not
shutdown.
It seems to me that the power guys are still living somewhere in the 
last century. Is it really impossible to absorb power spikes? We can go 
from utility to battery or the other way around in milliseconds, so it 
should be possible to activate something that can absorb a short spike 
much the same way. Balancing intermediate-term generation/usage 
mismatches should be possible by simply communicating with users. There 
is lots of stuff out there that switches on and off periodically (all 
kinds of cooling systems, battery charging, lights), so let it switch 
on or off for a few minutes when the power network needs it to.

I think the idea that the power should be always present and always 
reliable is actually harmful, as it doesn't provide for any "congestion 
contnrol" by bringing the users into the loop.

Re: East Coast outage?

[Vadim Antonov]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Petri Helenius wrote:

> Maybe we could attach the packets to hot air balloons and send them with the wind?

This seems to be a promising idea, given that the high-tech industry is
already adept at producing immeasureable quantities of hot air.

--vadim

RE: East Coast outage?

[Ejay Hire]

I similar technology has been discussed before, and I believe it is still a viable 
option:  RFCs 1149 and 2549, Avian Carriers.  While avian carriers do present 
problems, (flapping, unpredictable delay, queuing issues, and buggy implementations 
(specifically lice and mites)), I believe they are a better option than IP via 
Balloon.  Balloons offer higher bandwidth (practically any payload size can be 
accommodated with a larger envelope), but the connection is much slower and less 
predictable than avian carrier.  Balloon carrier retransmits are very expensive and 
the TTL is affected by the cost of propane and the general wind direction.  

As an alternative, perhaps we should consider IP via dirigible.  A properly sized 
airship loaded with a high speed DVD-rw library comprising (tens of ) thousands of 
discs providing a very high bandwidth, high latency, low loss (if helium is used 
instead of hydrogen) carrier might be an option.


-e

-Original Message-
From: Petri Helenius [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 4:50 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Rich Casto
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: East Coast outage?


> > subsidize) local power generation via renewable energy sources (e.g.
> > solar, wind, hydro) it would go a long way towards solving this problem.
>
> Rubbish.
>
> If in order to make it viable such energy needs to be subsidized then it is
> not "affordable".
>
And solar nor wind are good for base energy production so we´re stuck
with other methods unless you want to move IP packets only when it´s windy.

Maybe we could attach the packets to hot air balloons and send them with the wind?

Pete

Re: East Coast outage?

[Stephen Stuart]

> Maybe we could attach the packets to hot air balloons and send them
> with the wind? 

RFC1149, RFC2549.

Stephen

Re: East Coast outage?

[Petri Helenius]

> > subsidize) local power generation via renewable energy sources (e.g.
> > solar, wind, hydro) it would go a long way towards solving this problem.
>
> Rubbish.
>
> If in order to make it viable such energy needs to be subsidized then it is
> not "affordable".
>
And solar nor wind are good for base energy production so we´re stuck
with other methods unless you want to move IP packets only when it´s windy.

Maybe we could attach the packets to hot air balloons and send them with the wind?

Pete

Re: East Coast outage?

[alex]

> 
> At 08:13 PM 8/14/2003, David Lesher wrote:
> 
> >Then run parts at 105-110% and it gets really hard.
> 
> The power industry designs a grid that runs so close to capacity that if^W 
> when something big fails, the whole grid shuts down in a cascade.  They 
> know it:

Rubbish again. 

Welcome to the wonderful world of physics. Ask your favourite physics
professor what does

E1 = E2 

in context of yesterdays events.

Amount of energy generated must be balanced with the amount of energy used
at any time. Otherwise Bad Things (tm) will happen. The shutown of the grid
is a very good thing compared to what it would have been had it not
shutdown.

Alex

Re: East Coast outage?

[alex]

> > mandating large-scale, centralised generation and correspondingly
> > complicated transmission. Perhaps the power generation problem needs
> > the attention of a fresh set of eyes.
> 
> You wrote "fact" when you should have written "assumption". There are
> plenty of examples* of "affordable, distributed, small-scale power
> generation." If our governments would more pro-actively encourage (e.g.
> subsidize) local power generation via renewable energy sources (e.g.
> solar, wind, hydro) it would go a long way towards solving this problem.

Rubbish.

If in order to make it viable such energy needs to be subsidized then it is 
not "affordable".

Alex

Re: East Coast outage?

[Joe Abley]

On Friday, 15 August 2003, at 15:34PM, Rich Casto wrote:


I wonder how much of the understanding and "100 years experience" of
building power distribution networks is based on the fact that
affordable, distributed, small-scale power generation is not possible,
mandating large-scale, centralised generation and correspondingly
complicated transmission. Perhaps the power generation problem needs
the attention of a fresh set of eyes.
You wrote "fact" when you should have written "assumption".
It was a fact at some point. That it's not a fact any more is exactly 
my point.

Joe

RE: MSBlast CLI scanner (unix)?

[Ingevaldson, Dan (ISS Atlanta)]

David-

There is no reliable way to detect if a computer is infected with
blaster without logging into it and looking for the reg key or the
executable.  The backdoors (tftp and ) are not permanent.  ISS
X-Force released a great scanner for the vulnerability itself.  It does
two different checks to see if a box is patched, and it will detect the
difference between a machine that has DCOM disabled or if it is patched.
It's available here:

http://www.iss.net/support/product_utilities/ms03-026rpc.php

Regards,
===
Daniel Ingevaldson
Engineering Manager, X-Force R&D
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
404-236-3160
 
Internet Security Systems, Inc.
The Power to Protect
http://www.iss.net 
===


-Original Message-
From: David A. Ulevitch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 4:34 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: MSBlast CLI scanner (unix)?




Nanog'ers,

I've seen a couple of the windows-based MSBlast scanners but I'm looking
for a unix tool to simply plug in an IP/netmask and have it scan via the
command line and return the status of the vulnerability (patched,
unaffected, exploited, etc).

Has anyone found or heard of one that runs on *nix or have any other
suggestions?

thanks,
davidu


   David A. Ulevitch -- http://david.ulevitch.com
  http://everydns.net -+- http://communitycolo.net
Campus Box 6957 + Washington University in St. Louis

Telehouse (25 Broadway) back on utility power

[pr]

Just in case anyone's keeping track, utility power was restored about an 
hour ago, and the generators were shut down about 10 minutes ago.

I don't know which facility, but somewhere else must have just came back
up, as a few bgp sessions on NYIIX to companies who backhaul to elsewhere
came up about 10 minutes ago.

Things are starting to normalize.

I'm told 60 Hudson is still without utility power.

Re: East Coast outage?

[Joe Abley]

On Friday, 15 August 2003, at 16:19PM, Dragos Ruiu wrote:

This is the third such outage
the American power grid has seen since dc isolated zones were set up,
the first in 1965, the second in 1978.  There was also another incident
about half this size in 1996 in the western region, where most but not
all of a region went out.
The power system as a network probably counts as one of the most 
reliable
things humans have ever built.
I don't recall any any incidents during which similar numbers of people 
lost all internet access, or all telephone access, for as long as the 
power has been out -- and it's difficult to imagine a scenario in which 
that could happen (other than another widespread power failure).

Reliability is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

Joe

Re: East Coast outage?

[JC Dill]

At 08:13 PM 8/14/2003, David Lesher wrote:

Then run parts at 105-110% and it gets really hard.
The power industry designs a grid that runs so close to capacity that if^W 
when something big fails, the whole grid shuts down in a cascade.  They 
know it:

"What happens if <$big_num_watts> power plant suddenly spikes"?

"We have a cascade failure thru the whole grid as switches overload and 
shut off.  This causes blackouts over a wide area, and it takes many hours 
to restore electrical service.  Also, many outlying TelCo facilities have 
battery backup power that will be exhausted before we can restore power to 
them, and there aren't enough gen sets around to keep them all running when 
their batteries die.  So TelCo service (and by extension, also Internet 
service) will fail in many areas as a result of the widespread electrical 
grid failure."

"How often can we expect this to occur?"

"Oh, once every decade or so, on one of the major grids.  It usually 
happens when electric use is at peak demand, late afternoon during the 
summer."

"Oh.  Ok then.  Carry on."

See:

<http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=578&e=2&u=/nm/20030815/ts_nm/power_grid_dc>

"We're a superpower with a third-world grid. We need a new grid," New 
Mexico Gov. and former Energy Secretary Bill Richardson told the CNN 
television network. "The problem is that nobody is building enough 
transmission capacity."

What's the point in having DOE and FERC regulation and oversight if they 
just rubber-stamp this type of design and endorse running at over-capacity 
on a routine basis?  What happened to designing something so that it 
doesn't break when one big part fails, designing it so that switches don't 
get overloaded when a nearby plant spikes and goes off the grid?  Is it 
*that* hard/expensive to have switching plants sufficiently resilient, with 
the extra capacity that can handle a *predictable and expected* event?

In California we design our systems to survive major earthquakes (e.g 7.x), 
even though they only happen once every 10-20 years, and then only affect a 
relatively small portion (compared to the size of power grids) of the 
state.  When we discover that the engineering isn't resilient enough (e.g. 
when the Cypress structure collapsed and a piece of the SF Bay Bridge fell 
during the Loma Prieta quake in 1989), we find out what went wrong and FIX 
it, not just in the one inadequately designed structure or system, but 
statewide, system-wide.  (We have rebuilt a lot of bridges in the last 14 
years!)  Yet we keep on seeing electrical switches that can't handle the 
load when a nearby plant spikes or goes off the grid, causing cascade 
failures.  It is predictable and it has been happening for at least 40 
years!  Don't they notice that their design is inadequate and FIX 
it???  Quoting the above article again:

"According to the Electric Power Research Institute in Palo Alto, 
California, U.S. power demand has surged 30 percent in the last decade, 
while transmission capacity grew a mere 15 percent. "

They not only don't fix it, they let it get worse.  sigh...

Well, at least we now have a great argument against regulation when they 
try to create a Department of the Internet to oversee the "Internet industry".

jc

Re: East Coast outage?

[Rich Casto]

> I wonder how much of the understanding and "100 years experience" of
> building power distribution networks is based on the fact that
> affordable, distributed, small-scale power generation is not possible,
> mandating large-scale, centralised generation and correspondingly
> complicated transmission. Perhaps the power generation problem needs
> the attention of a fresh set of eyes.

You wrote "fact" when you should have written "assumption". There are
plenty of examples* of "affordable, distributed, small-scale power
generation." If our governments would more pro-actively encourage (e.g.
subsidize) local power generation via renewable energy sources (e.g.
solar, wind, hydro) it would go a long way towards solving this problem.

* examples:
http://www.solarhost.com/about.htm
http://www.solarliving.org/overview.cfm

Rich

Re: microsoft.com

[Crist Clark]

"Gregory (Grisha) Trubetskoy" wrote:
> 
> nslookup www.windowsupdate.com
> Server:  ns2.nv.cox.net
> Address:  68.100.16.25
> 
> *** ns2.nv.cox.net can't find www.windowsupdate.com: Non-existent host/domain

Some news outlets are reporting this is actually Microsoft's plan,

  http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1105_2-5064433.html

[sinp]

> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Bryan Heitman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 8:48 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: microsoft.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Several networks I have talked to are reporting they can't get to
> > > www.microsoft.com
> > >
> > > Has the virus began?  anyone?

There apparently was an unrelated DDoS attack on www.microsoft.com,

  http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/08/15/HNmsfalls_1.html

-- 
Crist J. Clark   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Globalstar Communications(408) 933-4387

The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential,
intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above.
If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, or the
employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient,
you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have
received this e-mail in error, please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: microsoft.com

[Gregory (Grisha) Trubetskoy]

nslookup www.windowsupdate.com
Server:  ns2.nv.cox.net
Address:  68.100.16.25

*** ns2.nv.cox.net can't find www.windowsupdate.com: Non-existent host/domain

Grisha

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Jason Baugher wrote:

>
> Actually faster than usual here, probably due to akamai:
>
> Non-authoritative answer:
> www.windowsupdate.com   canonical name =
> windowsupdate.microsoft.nsatc.net.
> windowsupdate.microsoft.nsatc.net   canonical name =
> windowsupdate.microsoft.com.edgesuite.net.
> windowsupdate.microsoft.com.edgesuite.net   canonical name =
> a822.cd.akamai.net.
> Name:   a822.cd.akamai.net
> Address: 166.90.148.198
> Name:   a822.cd.akamai.net
> Address: 166.90.148.199
> Name:   a822.cd.akamai.net
> Address: 166.90.148.215
> Name:   a822.cd.akamai.net
> Address: 166.90.148.233
> Name:   a822.cd.akamai.net
> Address: 166.90.148.246
> Name:   a822.cd.akamai.net
> Address: 166.90.148.247
>
> Jason Baugher
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 8:46 AM
> To: Huopio Kauto
> Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Subject: RE: microsoft.com
>
>
>
>
> Yeah:
>
>  7  sl-gw29-nyc-0-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.13.16)  8.728 ms  8.674 ms
> 8  sl-ft-10-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.171.90)  12.338 ms  11.911 ms  9
> P13-0.NYKCR2.New-york.opentransit.net (193.251.241.30)  37.556 ms 10
> P2-0.NYKBB5.New-york.opentransit.net (193.251.241.230)  12.385 ms 11
> 81.52.249.16 (81.52.249.16)  13.164 ms  19.364 ms  12.446 ms
>
> Interestingly, there's no reverse dns for 81.52.249.16 and it shows as
> being RIPE space...allocated to Akamai...do you suppose this is to
> minimize embarassment to MS that they would have to use Akamai?
>
> On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Huopio Kauto wrote:
>
> >
> > It seems that Microsoft is Akamai'zing as we speak..
> >
> > --Kauto
> >
> > Kauto Huopio - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Information Security Adviser / CERT-FI -coordinator
> > Finnish Communications Regulatory Authority / CERT-FI
> > tel. +358-9-6966772, fax. +358-9-6966515
> > CERT-FI duty desk +358-9-6966510 / http://www.cert.fi
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Bryan Heitman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 8:48 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: microsoft.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Several networks I have talked to are reporting they can't get to
> > www.microsoft.com
> >
> > Has the virus began?  anyone?
> >
> >
> > Bryan
> >
>
> James Smallacombe   PlantageNet, Inc. CEO and Janitor
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://3.am
> 
> =
>
>

Re: East Coast outage?

[sgorman1]

I think the power grid outage is a good example of the robust yet fragile phenomenon 
found in many complex networks.  The power grid is robust to even large variations in 
demand, but is extremely sensitive to the loss of particualr power lines or generators 
(see any of the work done by Massoud Amin).  The reason is that vast majority of 
generators have only a few internconnections but there are a minority that have a 
large number that are critical to keeping the system going.  If one of those 
gerneators in the minority has a failure it can rapidly result in a cascading failure 
since most of the adjacent generators do not have the capacity to handle the rerouted 
power. The Internet at the AS level is similar to the US power grid from a structural 
connectivity perspective, except there is even a smaller minority of nodes with an 
even larger percentage of connections.  Theoretically going from a few large transit 
providers to more mid size or smaller providers would increase the resilie...

The big 1996 power failure out west ended up resulting from a power line in Oregon 
that was downed by a falling tree branch.  The rerouted capacity resulted in a 
cascading failure that spread to Denver and California.

- Original Message -
From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Friday, August 15, 2003 1:53 pm
Subject: Re: East Coast outage?

> 
> On vrijdag, aug 15, 2003, at 17:55 Europe/Amsterdam, 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> >> Perhaps the lesson to learn is that very large networks don't 
> always>> lead to very high stability. A much larger number of 
> smaller, more
> >> autonomous generation and transmission facilities might have 
> much more
> >> reasonable interconnection requirements, and hence less wide-
> ranging>> failure modes.
> 
> > And if we extrapolate that lesson to IP networks it implies that any
> > medium to large sized organization should do their own BGP peering
> > and multihome to 3 or more upstream network providers.
> 
> While this certainly has its advantages, I don't think it follows 
> from 
> Joe's remarks. What would follow is having many smaller transit 
> networks rather than a few big ones. But I think in this regard IP 
> is 
> well ahead of the electricity people.
> 
> Still, I don't think it's this simple, as the problem with power 
> is 
> that supply and demand must be the same at all times. So if a 
> decent 
> chunk of the network that connects the two goes down, the supply 
> side 
> gets into trouble because they're suddenly generating too much. If 
> the 
> difference is big enough it's probably impossible to arrive at a 
> new 
> equilibrium above 0 fast enough. If you connect everything 
> together you 
> can absorb bigger imbalances but then when you get one you can't 
> absorb, the impact is larger of course.
> 
> Fortunately in our business we have queues to smooth the spikes in 
> network use and when we drop packets there are no sparks.
> 
> > Perhaps we should start working on a hierarchical routing system in
> > which the concept of a "global routing table" cannot develop. 
> Perhaps> announcements and withdraws should have a TTL so that 
> they never
> > propogate very far from their source AS?
> 
> Have a look at the work going on in the IETF multihoming in IPv6 
> (multi6) working group and the IRTF routing working group.
> 
> 
> 

RE: microsoft.com

[Jason Baugher]

Actually faster than usual here, probably due to akamai:

Non-authoritative answer:
www.windowsupdate.com   canonical name =
windowsupdate.microsoft.nsatc.net.
windowsupdate.microsoft.nsatc.net   canonical name =
windowsupdate.microsoft.com.edgesuite.net.
windowsupdate.microsoft.com.edgesuite.net   canonical name =
a822.cd.akamai.net.
Name:   a822.cd.akamai.net
Address: 166.90.148.198
Name:   a822.cd.akamai.net
Address: 166.90.148.199
Name:   a822.cd.akamai.net
Address: 166.90.148.215
Name:   a822.cd.akamai.net
Address: 166.90.148.233
Name:   a822.cd.akamai.net
Address: 166.90.148.246
Name:   a822.cd.akamai.net
Address: 166.90.148.247

Jason Baugher



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 8:46 AM
To: Huopio Kauto
Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: RE: microsoft.com




Yeah:

 7  sl-gw29-nyc-0-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.13.16)  8.728 ms  8.674 ms
8  sl-ft-10-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.171.90)  12.338 ms  11.911 ms  9
P13-0.NYKCR2.New-york.opentransit.net (193.251.241.30)  37.556 ms 10
P2-0.NYKBB5.New-york.opentransit.net (193.251.241.230)  12.385 ms 11
81.52.249.16 (81.52.249.16)  13.164 ms  19.364 ms  12.446 ms

Interestingly, there's no reverse dns for 81.52.249.16 and it shows as
being RIPE space...allocated to Akamai...do you suppose this is to
minimize embarassment to MS that they would have to use Akamai?

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Huopio Kauto wrote:

>
> It seems that Microsoft is Akamai'zing as we speak..
>
> --Kauto
>
> Kauto Huopio - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Information Security Adviser / CERT-FI -coordinator
> Finnish Communications Regulatory Authority / CERT-FI
> tel. +358-9-6966772, fax. +358-9-6966515
> CERT-FI duty desk +358-9-6966510 / http://www.cert.fi
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Bryan Heitman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 8:48 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: microsoft.com
>
>
>
> Several networks I have talked to are reporting they can't get to 
> www.microsoft.com
>
> Has the virus began?  anyone?
>
>
> Bryan
>

James Smallacombe PlantageNet, Inc. CEO and Janitor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://3.am

=

Re: East Coast outage?

[Iljitsch van Beijnum]

On vrijdag, aug 15, 2003, at 17:55 Europe/Amsterdam, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Perhaps the lesson to learn is that very large networks don't always
lead to very high stability. A much larger number of smaller, more
autonomous generation and transmission facilities might have much more
reasonable interconnection requirements, and hence less wide-ranging
failure modes.

And if we extrapolate that lesson to IP networks it implies that any
medium to large sized organization should do their own BGP peering
and multihome to 3 or more upstream network providers.
While this certainly has its advantages, I don't think it follows from 
Joe's remarks. What would follow is having many smaller transit 
networks rather than a few big ones. But I think in this regard IP is 
well ahead of the electricity people.

Still, I don't think it's this simple, as the problem with power is 
that supply and demand must be the same at all times. So if a decent 
chunk of the network that connects the two goes down, the supply side 
gets into trouble because they're suddenly generating too much. If the 
difference is big enough it's probably impossible to arrive at a new 
equilibrium above 0 fast enough. If you connect everything together you 
can absorb bigger imbalances but then when you get one you can't 
absorb, the impact is larger of course.

Fortunately in our business we have queues to smooth the spikes in 
network use and when we drop packets there are no sparks.

Perhaps we should start working on a hierarchical routing system in
which the concept of a "global routing table" cannot develop. Perhaps
announcements and withdraws should have a TTL so that they never
propogate very far from their source AS?
Have a look at the work going on in the IETF multihoming in IPv6 
(multi6) working group and the IRTF routing working group.

Re: East Coast outage?

[Joe Abley]

On Friday, 15 August 2003, at 11:55AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Perhaps the lesson to learn is that very large networks don't always
lead to very high stability. A much larger number of smaller, more
autonomous generation and transmission facilities might have much more
reasonable interconnection requirements, and hence less wide-ranging
failure modes.
And if we extrapolate that lesson to IP networks it implies that any
medium to large sized organization should do their own BGP peering
and multihome to 3 or more upstream network providers.
I don't think that extrapolation is entirely reasonable. The purpose of 
the Internet is to provide global connectivity; the purpose of a power 
generation and distribution network is to provide access to power, 
regardless of where it was generated.

 On the other
hand, if you understand why electrical networks shed load and develop
their cascading failures, you might see some parallels between "load"
and the propagation of BGP announcements which are worrying.
A mismatch between content providers and consumers seems like a natural 
challenge for an Internet of distributed content. It's not obvious to 
me that you need to engineer around that problem in the power network 
to the same extent.

I wonder how much of the understanding and "100 years experience" of 
building power distribution networks is based on the fact that 
affordable, distributed, small-scale power generation is not possible, 
mandating large-scale, centralised generation and correspondingly 
complicated transmission. Perhaps the power generation problem needs 
the attention of a fresh set of eyes.

Joe

Re: BGP route tracking.

[cowie]

Some updated images of routing table size and 7-day prefix withdrawals: 

http://gradus.renesys.com/aug2003/blackout3-rtsize.gif 

http://gradus.renesys.com/aug2003/aug7-aug15-withdrawals.gif

(Blackout is event #3 on the right.)

We're about halfway back to the table sizes we started with yesterday 
before the grid tripped. If it trends the same way through the 
afternoon, it could be back to its old self sometime around midnight 
GMT; previous experience suggests that it might stabilize somewhat 
higher than before the event.  

At any rate, steady improvement as power returns across the East.

--
James Cowie
Renesys Corporation
[EMAIL PROTECTED]





> Okay, here are a couple quick screenshots of what we're looking at 
> tonight.
> 
> First, a plot that shows the routing table size shrinkage since the 
> onset of the blackout at 16:13:07 +/- EDT, across a group 
> of routers. 
> 
>  http://gradus.renesys.com/aug2003/blackout1-rtsize.gif 
> 
> Second, a wider-angle 3D plot of prefix withdrawal rates over the 
> last week, reported by various peers (one line per). 
> 
>  http://gradus.renesys.com/aug2003/aug7-aug14-withdrawals.gif
> 
> The blackout is the big event at the right hand edge (#3). 
> 
> Note the sustained high rates of route withdrawal that have been 
> the norm since the onset of MSBlast.  Unlike typical single-cause 
> events (like the one marked #1), MSBlast scanning has caused 
> prefix withdrawal rates to gently "lift off" into a noiser mode 
> across the board, lasting for days (so far).
> 
> > (im just getting bored waiting for us to run out of fuel)
> 
> Ouch .. 
> 
> 
> --
> James Cowie
> Renesys Corporation
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

Re: 60 Hudson?

[Adam Rothschild]

On 2003-08-15-12:11:18, Adam Rothschild <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[...]
> On a related note, 25 Broadway (TELEHOUSE "Broadway Center") has
> been on generator power since around 4.15PM EST yesterday
[...]

To clarify, the TELEHOUSE facility inside 25 Broadway is in generator
power.  Other building tenants, such as Deloitte Touche and Neve
Yerushalyim, are still without power.

Last I heard, 111 8th Avenue (and nearby facilities, including
Chelsea Markets and the Level(3) "Mondo Condo" on 10th Avenue?) is
also without utility power, but doing ok on generator for the most
part.

MFN sent this out:

  "As a result of the major power outage in New York and other cities,
  our generator system at LGA1 (NY1) is experiencing heating issues.
  Critical loads are currently running on UPS systems alone.  We are
  working aggressively to get the generator system repaired, and
  believe we will be able to do before the UPS systems loose their
  capacity.  We do have several hours with which to work, and do not
  believe that this situation will become customer affecting, however
  it does have the potential to become customer affecting."

I'm not sure how accurate the "several hours" figure is.   Presumably
they have a large battery plant, or a lot of empty racks...

-a

Re: East Coast outage?

[Crist Clark]

JC Dill wrote:
[snip]

> Am I the only one who is surprised that here we are now - over 7 years
> later - and the electric grid industry still hasn't found/implemented a
> design fix for this problem?  What does the FERC and the DOE do anyway?  Do
> they just "regulate" prices?

To see what FERC does,

  http://www.ferc.gov/about/ferc-does.asp

As for what the DOE does, it's primary function is and has always been the
production and maintenance of the United States's nuclear weapon arsenal.
FERC is pretty much the only part of it that deals with the nitty-gritty
of commercial power and energy regulation. See,

  http://www.doe.gov/engine/content.do?BT_CODE=ABOUTDOE
  http://www.doe.gov/engine/content.do?BT_CODE=AD_O

> (Yeah, they did such a good job with E! and
> we in California will be paying for it for many years to come.)  I kinda
> thought the whole point of having federal departments and commissions to
> oversee energy was to assure the country of a *reliable* energy system...

Yes and no. The USian approach is to regulate, not dictate, as subtle as
that difference may be.
-- 
Crist J. Clark   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Globalstar Communications(408) 933-4387

The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential,
intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above.
If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, or the
employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient,
you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have
received this e-mail in error, please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: East Coast outage?

[Haesu]

> And if we extrapolate that lesson to IP networks it implies that any
> medium to large sized organization should do their own BGP peering
> and multihome to 3 or more upstream network providers. On the other
> hand, if you understand why electrical networks shed load and develop
> their cascading failures, you might see some parallels between "load"
> and the propagation of BGP announcements which are worrying.

Makes remember the days of AS7007... AS numbers are very much like power grids..

> 
> Perhaps we should start working on a hierarchical routing system in
> which the concept of a "global routing table" cannot develop. Perhaps
> announcements and withdraws should have a TTL so that they never 
> propogate very far from their source AS?

And how would global uniqueness and reachability of a route be done? Dampening
to some extent quite helps a lot..

-hc

-- 
Sincerely,
  Haesu C.
  TowardEX Technologies, Inc.
  WWW: http://www.towardex.com
  E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Cell: (978) 394-2867
> 
> --Michael Dillon
> 
> 
> 

Re: 60 Hudson?

[Adam Rothschild]

On 2003-08-15-09:49:38, "Temkin, David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does anyone know what the status of 60 Hudson in NYC is?  We're
> waiting for Yipes to come back online and info has been hard to come
> by..

60 Hudson doesn't have a house generator, and has been without utility
power since yesterday.  Some tenants (like Tel-x) have their own
generation capabilities, some (like Keyspan) don't -- prohibiting
factors being some combination of pigheaded laws, lack of space,
economic constraints, and noise-sensitive neighbors and community
groups.  Nobody ever said locating a carrier hotel in TriBeCa was the
smartest idea. [1] ;)

On a related note, 25 Broadway (TELEHOUSE "Broadway Center") has been
on generator power since around 4.15PM EST yesterday, and hasn't
reported any customer-impacting outages.  NYIIX took a slight dive:

  http://www.nyiix.net/mrtg/sum/sum.html

...presumably because folk backhaul their traffic (and in some cases,
layer 2!) to outside facilities without power.

-a

[1] ,

RE: Power outage in North East

[Ejay Hire]

I remember a recent thread about a security guard shutting down a Colo
facility.  It seems he hit the Emergency power off button while looking
for a way to silence a door alarm.  Anyone know if he found a new job
with the power company? 

-e


-Original Message-
From: Ejay Hire 
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 5:25 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Power outage in North East

IME, releasing the magic smoke from $device is not considered normal
unlesss the device intentionally uses processes like internal
combustion.  

-e

Re: East Coast outage?

[Michael . Dillon]

>Perhaps the lesson to learn is that very large networks don't always 
>lead to very high stability. A much larger number of smaller, more 
>autonomous generation and transmission facilities might have much more 
>reasonable interconnection requirements, and hence less wide-ranging 
>failure modes.

And if we extrapolate that lesson to IP networks it implies that any
medium to large sized organization should do their own BGP peering
and multihome to 3 or more upstream network providers. On the other
hand, if you understand why electrical networks shed load and develop
their cascading failures, you might see some parallels between "load"
and the propagation of BGP announcements which are worrying.

Perhaps we should start working on a hierarchical routing system in
which the concept of a "global routing table" cannot develop. Perhaps
announcements and withdraws should have a TTL so that they never 
propogate very far from their source AS?

--Michael Dillon

Re: East Coast outage?

[Joe Abley]

On Thursday, 14 August 2003, at 23:13PM, David Lesher wrote:

I'm no power engineer but I do not envy them. Can YOU build an
equal size TCP/IP network with the added requirement that you
never drop any more than say one or 2 bits/hour?
Perhaps the lesson to learn is that very large networks don't always 
lead to very high stability. A much larger number of smaller, more 
autonomous generation and transmission facilities might have much more 
reasonable interconnection requirements, and hence less wide-ranging 
failure modes.

Seems to me, if more consumers were opportunistic generators (fuel 
cells, solar cells, wind turbines, whatever) the islands formed during 
interconnection failures would have far more accurately-matched supply 
and demand, and failures would stand a much better chance of having 
only local impact.

Joe (battery and GPRS powered, still)

Re: Battery lifetimes RE: East Coast outage?

[Chris Adams]

Once upon a time, David Lesher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> But all those SONET hubs in basements, SLC's in the burbs and such
> -- they don't have generators. They have X hours of batteries. In
> the fine print, it says the LEC will have a portable generator
> on site before they die.

We've got BellSouth and KMC in our POP.  BellSouth has batteries
(because they were already there); KMC does not, but they are on our
UPS.  Both are covered by our generator.

All of the outside cabinets I've seen BellSouth install around town
(Huntsville, AL; BellSouth appears to be working hard to get all copper
lines out of the COs so lots of remote fiber cabinets) in recent years
have included a natural gas hookup, which I'm assuming is for an
internal generator.  We haven't had an extended power failure here in
several years, so I don't know for sure, but it looks like BellSouth has
their network prepared for long term power outages (as long as the NG
supply keeps going).

-- 
Chris Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.

RE: microsoft.com - what happens when there is no DNS record

[Ingevaldson, Dan (ISS Atlanta)]

Our assessment of worm's behavior is below:

If windowsupdate.com fails to resolve, it will return a -1, which is not
interpreted because this routine has no error checking.  The worm then
attempts to send its SYN packets to 255.255.255.255, which may have done
some interesting things, but it looks like the Windows raw socket
implementation won't let that packet out.  So basically, nothing
happens.  

There might be some issues with cached DNS, but besides that it looks
like the majority of the infections won't be doing much of anything
besides eating CPU cycles on the infected hosts.

Regards,
===
Daniel Ingevaldson
Engineering Manager, X-Force R&D
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
404-236-3160
 
Internet Security Systems, Inc.
The Power to Protect
http://www.iss.net 
===


-Original Message-
From: McBurnett, Jim [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 10:26 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robbie Foust
Cc: Bryan Heitman; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Chris Horry
Subject: RE: microsoft.com



good here thru AT&T and Broadwing..
Jim

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 10:16 AM
To: Robbie Foust
Cc: Bryan Heitman; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Chris Horry
Subject: Re: microsoft.com




No problems here, UUNET out of DC


 

  Robbie Foust

  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To:   Chris Horry
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  Sent by: cc:   Bryan Heitman
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]   
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject:  Re:
microsoft.com 
  .edu

 

 

  08/15/2003 10:04

  AM

 






I've had no problem getting to Microsoft's site(s) today...I'm in the
southeastern US if it makes a difference.

- Robbie


Chris Horry wrote:

>
> Bryan Heitman wrote:
>
>> Several networks I have talked to are reporting they can't get to 
>> www.microsoft.com
>>
>> Has the virus began?  anyone?
>
>
> Yep, remember it's already August 16th in some parts of the world. 
> Unable to get to www.microsoft.com at 0958 EDT.
>
> Chris
>

--
Robbie Foust, IT Analyst
Systems and Core Services
Duke University

RE: microsoft.com

[McBurnett, Jim]

good here thru AT&T and Broadwing..
Jim

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 10:16 AM
To: Robbie Foust
Cc: Bryan Heitman; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Chris Horry
Subject: Re: microsoft.com




No problems here, UUNET out of DC


   

  Robbie Foust 

  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To:   Chris Horry <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]> 
  Sent by: cc:   Bryan Heitman <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]   
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject:  Re: microsoft.com 

  .edu 

   

   

  08/15/2003 10:04 

  AM   

   






I've had no problem getting to Microsoft's site(s) today...I'm in the
southeastern US if it makes a difference.

- Robbie


Chris Horry wrote:

>
> Bryan Heitman wrote:
>
>> Several networks I have talked to are reporting they can't get to
>> www.microsoft.com
>>
>> Has the virus began?  anyone?
>
>
> Yep, remember it's already August 16th in some parts of the world.
> Unable to get to www.microsoft.com at 0958 EDT.
>
> Chris
>

--
Robbie Foust, IT Analyst
Systems and Core Services
Duke University

RE: microsoft.com

[Vachon, Scott]

> Bryan Heitman wrote:
>
>> Several networks I have talked to are reporting they can't get to
>> www.microsoft.com
>>
>> Has the virus began?  anyone?
>
>
> Yep, remember it's already August 16th in some parts of the world. 
> Unable to get to www.microsoft.com at 0958 EDT.
>

Northeastern US. No problems reaching it here. ATT & Qwest are ISPs.
  
Learn more about Paymentech's payment processing services at www.paymentech.com
THIS MESSAGE IS CONFIDENTIAL.  This e-mail message and any attachments are proprietary 
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this message or any attachments.  If you have received this communication in error, 
please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this message and any attachments 
from your computer.

Re: microsoft.com

[Patrick_McAllister]

No problems here, UUNET out of DC


   

  Robbie Foust 

  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To:   Chris Horry <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]> 
  Sent by: cc:   Bryan Heitman <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]   
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject:  Re: microsoft.com 

  .edu 

   

   

  08/15/2003 10:04 

  AM   

   






I've had no problem getting to Microsoft's site(s) today...I'm in the
southeastern US if it makes a difference.

- Robbie


Chris Horry wrote:

>
> Bryan Heitman wrote:
>
>> Several networks I have talked to are reporting they can't get to
>> www.microsoft.com
>>
>> Has the virus began?  anyone?
>
>
> Yep, remember it's already August 16th in some parts of the world.
> Unable to get to www.microsoft.com at 0958 EDT.
>
> Chris
>

--
Robbie Foust, IT Analyst
Systems and Core Services
Duke University

RE: microsoft.com

[Pranav Sheth]

Windowsupdate does seem a bit slow.  The drones are marching.



-Original Message-
From: Robbie Foust [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 9:04 AM
To: Chris Horry
Cc: Bryan Heitman; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: microsoft.com



I've had no problem getting to Microsoft's site(s) today...I'm in the 
southeastern US if it makes a difference.

- Robbie


Chris Horry wrote:

>
> Bryan Heitman wrote:
>
>> Several networks I have talked to are reporting they can't get to 
>> www.microsoft.com
>>
>> Has the virus began?  anyone?
>
>
> Yep, remember it's already August 16th in some parts of the world.
> Unable to get to www.microsoft.com at 0958 EDT.
>
> Chris
>

-- 
Robbie Foust, IT Analyst
Systems and Core Services
Duke University

RE: microsoft.com

[Bruce Morgan]

Chris Hobby wrote:

> Bryan Heitman wrote:
> > Several networks I have talked to are reporting they can't get to 
> > www.microsoft.com
> > 
> > Has the virus began?  anyone?
> 
> Yep, remember it's already August 16th in some parts of the world. 
> Unable to get to www.microsoft.com at 0958 EDT.
> 

Not for me. It's as responsive as ever here. Mind you the A record has
ceased for windowsupdate.com. Looks like a good nights slee, I hope,  at
least for us in Australia.

Bruce

Re: Power outage in North East

[Dan Armstrong]

We are in Toronto, out all over the city.

Dan.


Damian Gerow wrote:

> Thus spake Joel Perez ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [14/08/03 16:27]:
> > Has anyone heard of a big Power outage in the North east?
> > I just got a call from one of my tech's in the GBLX bldg in Newark, NJ
> > at 1085 raymond and they are telling him that they lost power!
> > But I also got a call from AT&T in NY that they also lost Power!
>
> It looks like a rather large power outage -- we're in South Western Ontario,
> Canada, and power is out in Waterloo, Cambridge, Guelph, Hespler, and (I'm
> pretty sure) London as well.  Can't say about Toronto.
>
>   - Damian

Re: microsoft.com

[Robbie Foust]

I've had no problem getting to Microsoft's site(s) today...I'm in the 
southeastern US if it makes a difference.

- Robbie

Chris Horry wrote:

Bryan Heitman wrote:

Several networks I have talked to are reporting they can't get to
www.microsoft.com
Has the virus began?  anyone?


Yep, remember it's already August 16th in some parts of the world. 
Unable to get to www.microsoft.com at 0958 EDT.

Chris

--
Robbie Foust, IT Analyst
Systems and Core Services
Duke University

Re: microsoft.com

[Chris Horry]

Bryan Heitman wrote:
Several networks I have talked to are reporting they can't get to
www.microsoft.com
Has the virus began?  anyone?
Yep, remember it's already August 16th in some parts of the world. 
Unable to get to www.microsoft.com at 0958 EDT.

Chris

--
Chris Horry   "Don't submit to stupid rules,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Be yourself and not a fool.
PGP: DSA/2B4C654E  Don't accept average habits,
Amateur Radio: KG4TSM   Open your heart and push the limits."

60 Hudson?

[Temkin, David]

Title: 60 Hudson?





Does anyone know what the status of 60 Hudson in NYC is?  We're waiting for Yipes to come back online and info has been hard to come by..

Thanks,


-Dave


David Temkin
S-I-G

RE: microsoft.com

[up]

Yeah:

 7  sl-gw29-nyc-0-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.13.16)  8.728 ms  8.674 ms
 8  sl-ft-10-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.171.90)  12.338 ms  11.911 ms
 9  P13-0.NYKCR2.New-york.opentransit.net (193.251.241.30)  37.556 ms
10  P2-0.NYKBB5.New-york.opentransit.net (193.251.241.230)  12.385 ms
11  81.52.249.16 (81.52.249.16)  13.164 ms  19.364 ms  12.446 ms

Interestingly, there's no reverse dns for 81.52.249.16 and it shows as
being RIPE space...allocated to Akamai...do you suppose this is to
minimize embarassment to MS that they would have to use Akamai?

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Huopio Kauto wrote:

>
> It seems that Microsoft is Akamai'zing as we speak..
>
> --Kauto
>
> Kauto Huopio - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Information Security Adviser / CERT-FI -coordinator
> Finnish Communications Regulatory Authority / CERT-FI
> tel. +358-9-6966772, fax. +358-9-6966515
> CERT-FI duty desk +358-9-6966510 / http://www.cert.fi
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Bryan Heitman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 8:48 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: microsoft.com
>
>
>
> Several networks I have talked to are reporting they can't get to
> www.microsoft.com
>
> Has the virus began?  anyone?
>
>
> Bryan
>

James Smallacombe PlantageNet, Inc. CEO and Janitor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://3.am
=

Re: power failure causes and effects

[Fred Heutte]

It appears that this was the largest power outage on record,
in a variety of respects (geographic reach, number of grid
line-miles, megawatts of capacity, number of affected
customers, etc.).

Despite all the noise already arising about the "antiquated"
American grid, it's important to recognize how stable and
reliable it generally is.

(did Bill Richardson really say "third world"?  now there's
someone who doesn't know anything about power
engineering here *or* there)

The reason is simple: it gets down to good engineering
practiced over 100 years.  Strogatz and Watts did an
interesting "small world" analysis of the western power
grid about six years ago.  A more recent paper by Motter
and Lai compares cascading failures of the Internet at
the AS level and the western power grid -- side by side!

http://chaos1.la.asu.edu/~yclai/papers/PRE_02_ML_3.pdf

Some of this work is now being transmuted into practical
form at EPRI and other transmission research places:

http://www.epri.com/programHigh.asp?objid=261741

The emergent properties of the power grid and the net
are similar for quite obvious reasons.  Whether consciously
done or not, good design requires hierarchical ordering,
loose coupling of regional systems, self-healing and "immune
response" mechanisms, and so forth.  These are then discoverable
at the mathematical level, which is what the "small world"
approach is all about.

Neglect of infrastructure certainly raises the prospects for
cascading failures.  But the causality associated with one
single incident -- even one as widespread as msblast or
the August 14 power failure, is not easily attributable to
any single element, even if an initial failure point can be
identified.

Fred

The Cidr Report

[cidr-report]

This report has been generated at Fri Aug 15 21:47:34 2003 AEST.
The report analyses the BGP Routing Table of an AS4637 (Reach) router
and generates a report on aggregation potential within the table.

Check http://www.cidr-report.org/as4637 for a current version of this report.

Recent Table History
Date  PrefixesCIDR Agg
08-08-03124082   88568
09-08-03124348   88510
10-08-03124220   88564
11-08-03124223   88575
12-08-03124320   88542
13-08-03124171   88551
14-08-03124191   88511
15-08-03123680   87047


AS Summary
 15269  Number of ASes in routing system
  6030  Number of ASes announcing only one prefix
  1374  Largest number of prefixes announced by an AS
AS701  : ALTERNET-AS UUNET Technologies, Inc.
  73223424  Largest address span announced by an AS (/32s)
AS568  : SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA


Aggregation Summary
The algorithm used in this report proposes aggregation only
when there is a precise match using the AS path, so as 
to preserve traffic transit policies. Aggregation is also
proposed across non-advertised address space ('holes').

 --- 15Aug03 ---
ASnumNetsNow NetsAggr  NetGain   % Gain   Description

Table 121911871903472128.5%   All ASes

AS4323   617  180  43770.8%   TW-COMM Time Warner
   Communications, Inc.
AS701   1374  965  40929.8%   ALTERNET-AS UUNET
   Technologies, Inc.
AS7018  1350  963  38728.7%   ATT-INTERNET4 AT&T WorldNet
   Services
AS3908   906  535  37140.9%   SUPERNETASBLK SuperNet, Inc.
AS7843   567  208  35963.3%   ADELPHIA-AS Adelphia Corp.
AS11305  359   38  32189.4%   INTERLAND-NET1 Interland
   Incorporated
AS6197   567  257  31054.7%   BATI-ATL BellSouth Network
   Solutions, Inc
AS1221  1043  734  30929.6%   ASN-TELSTRA Telstra Pty Ltd
AS6198   509  201  30860.5%   BATI-MIA BellSouth Network
   Solutions, Inc
AS4355   398  114  28471.4%   ERMS-EARTHLNK EARTHLINK, INC
AS6347   344   91  25373.5%   DIAMOND SAVVIS Communications
   Corporation
AS1239   874  626  24828.4%   SPRINTLINK Sprint
AS27364  317   84  23373.5%   ACS-INTERNET Armstrong Cable
   Services
AS17676  251   25  22690.0%   GIGAINFRA Softbank BB Corp.
AS22773  239   17  22292.9%   CCINET-2 Cox Communications
   Inc. Atlanta
AS209516  299  21742.1%   ASN-QWEST Qwest
AS4134   321  125  19661.1%   CHINANET-BACKBONE
   No.31,Jin-rong Street
AS705482  305  17736.7%   ALTERNET-AS UUNET
   Technologies, Inc.
AS6327   194   22  17288.7%   SHAW Shaw Communications Inc.
AS2386   374  203  17145.7%   INS-AS AT&T Data
   Communications Services
AS7132   410  240  17041.5%   SBIS-AS SBC Internet Services
   - Southwest
AS2048   255   87  16865.9%   LANET-1 State of Louisiana
AS17557  303  139  16454.1%   PKTELECOM-AS-AP Pakistan
   Telecom
AS14654  1653  16298.2%   WAYPORT Wayport
AS4538   167   21  14687.4%   ERX-CERNET-BKB China Education
   and Research Network Center
AS20115  475  329  14630.7%   CHARTER-NET-HKY-NC Charter
   Communications
AS9800   198   56  14271.7%   UNICOM CHINA UNICOM
AS9583   241  100  14158.5%   SATYAMNET-AS Satyam Infoway
   Ltd.,
AS3602   221   81  14063.3%   SPRINT-CA-AS Sprint Canada
   Inc.
AS6140   298  160  13846.3%   IMPSAT-USA ImpSat

Total  14335 7208 712749.7%   Top 30 total


Possible Bogus Routes

24.119.0.0/16AS11492 CABLEONE CABLE ONE
61.12.32.0/24AS7545  TPG-INTERNET-AP TPG Internet Pty Ltd
61.12.34.0/24AS7545  TPG-INTERNET-AP TPG Internet Pty Ltd
64.30.64.0/19AS14900 USLEC-CORP-1 USLEC Corp.
66.41.192.0/18

RE: Battery lifetimes RE: East Coast outage?

[McBurnett, Jim]

>ut all those SONET hubs in basements, SLC's in the burbs and such
>-- they don't have generators. They have X hours of batteries. In
>the fine print, it says the LEC will have a portable generator
>on site before they die.

>That's doable if the failure is local; say a semi taking out
>a power pole. But given anything bigger, a citywide or bigger
>blackout, a regional ice storm, or whatever they do not have
>the quantity of gensets they'd need, much less the manpower to
>deploy AND maintain [refuel] same.

Here in the SE we had a little Experience with this EXACT issue
back in december.
We had a power outage that lasted 4 days.  Bellsouth's plan, and it
seemed to work, was to hook gensets to a truck run to a battery pack
run the generator long enough to recharge the pack and then drop 
and run to the next one. They started this within an hour or two
of the power outage.

None of my circuits went down during those days.
(We had generator power at our office)
This may be a larger, but we had about 2 Million out of power
in little ole SC..

IMHO,
J

Anti-spam scripts

[just me]

Pardon the posting from (for once) a non-blackout area, but I have a
small request.

I just lost a large chunk of my work to a disk failure. A couple of
months ago, I mailed out a bunch of my anti-spam scripts and database
schemas to someone on this list. I'd know who, but my mail was hosed,
too.

If that was you, would you mind mailing the info back to me? I'd be
forever indebited.

Sorry for the WOB.

Matt Ghali

[EMAIL PROTECTED]<
   Flowers on the razor wire/I know you're here/We are few/And far
   between/I was thinking about her skin/Love is a many splintered
   thing/Don't be afraid now/Just walk on in. #include 

Re: NERC summer 2003 power predictions

[Stephen J. Wilcox]

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Randy Bush wrote:

> 
> we could try to match the power grid's reliability by router knobs
> which watched output queue length, and when it got too long the
> router would power down and require a manual restart.

Seems they already thought of this - cisco did this in the recent vuln.!

Re: 151 Front St Toronto (Torix) (cooling fixed)

[Mike Tancsa]

The building air conditioning has been fixed as of 5min ago (5:35 eastern). 
The temp has already dropped 3 degrees C on my router intake ports.  Still 
no word on why their building generators failed nor what actually took out 
the cooling system.

---Mike

At 02:30 AM 15/08/2003 -0400, Mike Tancsa wrote:

At 08:26 PM 14/08/2003 -0700, Eric Kuhnke wrote:

TORIX is off the net
traces to peer1 routers/hosts at 151 front die before reaching toronto
the rumor mill has it that 151 front's generator system failed utterly...


Just called my colo provider (GT/360) and they said the air conditioners 
are still not fully functional.  The temp is still rising for my 
equipment, but its not rising nearly as fast as before.

Temperature readings:
chassis inletmeasured at 38C/100F
chassis outlet 1 measured at 41C/105F
chassis outlet 2 measured at 46C/114F
chassis outlet 3 measured at 52C/125F :Temperature in Warning range!
---Mike

cat6k msfc2 boot procedure details?

[Jochen Kaiser]

Good morning,

I try to understand the boot process of a msfc2 in cat6500 in
hybrid mode. After reading the appropriate docs at CCO and some
practise, I understand how to boot it and mostly (*sigh*) it 
works. 

Asking these detailed questions to ppl also administrating
cat6k revealed a deep lack of knowledge ;-(

Can anyone enlighten me/us?

---

I understand, that there are 4 mechanisms on the msfc2:
-

1. config register
2. BOOT variable (???)
3. BOOTLDR for helper image
4. 'boot system' statement in nvram config
   
I assume, that there are 3 image types:

1. ROM image-> loaded when all fails

2. a c6msfc2-boot image -> loaded when other image fails

   (that's what I've read, but I watched, that it is booted
each time, also when a loadable normal image is reachable
on bootflash)

3. a c6msfc2-> regular image 


Now we have different situations:
--

a) an image is defined in nvram config 'boot system'
   and the image is on the bootflash
   -> image loads

b) an image is defined but not on bootflash
   and there is an 'boot' image on bootflash
   -> boot-image boots

   my q:
   - is the position of the boot image of any relevance?
 I heard, that it is important, that it is the 1st 
 file on the bootflash. Is this right?
   - does this just happen, when the config register has
 the appropriate value of 0x2000 ?
   - what is the exact role of the 'BOOTLDR'-variable?

c) no image defined, config register 0x102
   and boot image is on bootflash
  
   -> 

   my q:
   - What happens?

d) an image is defined in the 'BOOT'-variable
   
   -> 
   
my q: 
- what is the sense of the boot-variable?
- how is it set?

e) image is on ata-flash-disk and a boot image is on
   bootflash. image is defined via nvram 'boot system'

   -> since the appropriate image is not found,
  it boots the 'boot' image from bootflash, 
  reads the nvram config and sees the sup-disk0 and loads
  the real image as a replacement

   my q: 
   - is this correct? 




Especially I've a problem with setting the boot-variable (during
normal operation of a regular booted image).


router#sh boot
BOOT variable = sup-disk0:c6msfc2-jo3sv-mz.121-19.E.bin,1
CONFIG_FILE variable does not exist
BOOTLDR variable does not exist
Configuration register is 0x2102


tia & greetings,

Jochen Kaiser
-- 
Dipl. Inf. Jochen Kaiser, GPG 0x3C93A870, phone +49 9131 85-28681
Network Administration  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Regionales Rechenzentrum Universitaet Erlangen-Nuernberg, Germany
Homepage and PublicKey: http://ipv6.rrze.uni-erlangen.de/~unrz111 

Re: 151 Front St Toronto (Torix)

[Bill Zeng]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Mike Tancsa wrote:
>
> The building is run / managed by RACO.  Bell along with pretty well every
> carrier in Canada are tenants of the building.  Its a VERY large carrier POI.

True.  I've been there myself a few times.  I think most circuits are
owned by Bell (operated or rented).

> I spoke with GT at 3:30 Eastern and they still were waiting for some
> contractors to show up to fix the air conditioners.  Street power was
> supposedly restored around ~ 1am but still no cooling :-(

Yes, that's about the time I was waken up by the lights coming on. ;)


> At 03:46 AM 15/08/2003 -0400, Bill Zeng wrote:
> >That's a shame to owner/Bell.  Generators should have been tested with
> >the full load on a periodic basis.
> >
> >On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Mike Tancsa wrote:
> >
> > > Yikes, I just heard that the power is out at 151 Front St because they are
> > > having generator problem.
> > >
> > >  ---Mike
> > >
> > > At 11:04 PM 14/08/2003 -0400, Mike Tancsa wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > >Does anyone know whats up with them ?  All my peers are down now and the
> > > >host for the mailing list is still off the air.
> > > >
> > > > ---Mike
> > > >
> > > >Mike Tancsa,  tel +1 519 651 3400
> > > >Sentex Communications,[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >Providing Internet since 1994www.sentex.net
> > > >Cambridge, Ontario Canada www.sentex.net/mike
> > >
> > >
>
>

Re: 151 Front St Toronto (Torix)

[Mike Tancsa]

The building is run / managed by RACO.  Bell along with pretty well every 
carrier in Canada are tenants of the building.  Its a VERY large carrier POI.

I spoke with GT at 3:30 Eastern and they still were waiting for some 
contractors to show up to fix the air conditioners.  Street power was 
supposedly restored around ~ 1am but still no cooling :-(

---Mike

At 03:46 AM 15/08/2003 -0400, Bill Zeng wrote:
That's a shame to owner/Bell.  Generators should have been tested with
the full load on a periodic basis.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Mike Tancsa wrote:

> Yikes, I just heard that the power is out at 151 Front St because they are
> having generator problem.
>
>  ---Mike
>
> At 11:04 PM 14/08/2003 -0400, Mike Tancsa wrote:
>
>
> >Does anyone know whats up with them ?  All my peers are down now and the
> >host for the mailing list is still off the air.
> >
> > ---Mike
> >
> >Mike Tancsa,  tel +1 519 651 3400
> >Sentex Communications,[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Providing Internet since 1994www.sentex.net
> >Cambridge, Ontario Canada www.sentex.net/mike
>
>

Re: 151 Front St Toronto (Torix)

[Bill Zeng]

That's a shame to owner/Bell.  Generators should have been tested with
the full load on a periodic basis.

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Mike Tancsa wrote:

> Yikes, I just heard that the power is out at 151 Front St because they are
> having generator problem.
>
>  ---Mike
>
> At 11:04 PM 14/08/2003 -0400, Mike Tancsa wrote:
>
>
> >Does anyone know whats up with them ?  All my peers are down now and the
> >host for the mailing list is still off the air.
> >
> > ---Mike
> >
> >Mike Tancsa,  tel +1 519 651 3400
> >Sentex Communications,[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Providing Internet since 1994www.sentex.net
> >Cambridge, Ontario Canada www.sentex.net/mike
>
>

RE: microsoft.com

[Huopio Kauto]

It seems that Microsoft is Akamai'zing as we speak..

--Kauto

Kauto Huopio - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Information Security Adviser / CERT-FI -coordinator
Finnish Communications Regulatory Authority / CERT-FI
tel. +358-9-6966772, fax. +358-9-6966515
CERT-FI duty desk +358-9-6966510 / http://www.cert.fi
 

-Original Message-
From: Bryan Heitman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 8:48 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: microsoft.com



Several networks I have talked to are reporting they can't get to
www.microsoft.com

Has the virus began?  anyone?


Bryan