Re: MPLS ICMP Extensions
As far as I remember we have seen labels from other providers, until they turned on the traceroute hide. And there was no LDP coupling between them and us so ... . That was with Cisco in both networks. The question is if these information cause any problem for you - despite curious customers asking ;-) The labels seem to be allocated from a start value - usually 20, 1024, 4096 or such, depending on your system, OS version - in an incremental order, so guessing labels isn't that difficult. If your network accepts labels although it shouldn't then the extra information in ICMP doesn't really make things worse anymore. Marc On Thursday, August 14, 2003, at 08:39 PM, Leo Bicknell wrote: In a message written on Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 01:21:28PM -0500, Mike Bernico wrote: Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that the extended MPLS info only showed up when the trace was started on a PE or P router. Is that right? I did the traceroute from a router with _NO_ mpls commands turned on, and it's on a network that uses _NO_ mpls today. Basically from reading the draft if the router that generates the ICMP unreachable received the packet with an MPLS label, it adds the MPLS info to the returned data. As long as your traceroute can parse/show it (so far I've only confirmed Juniper can do it), it will be displayed to the world. -- Leo Bicknell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ Read TMBG List - [EMAIL PROTECTED], www.tmbg.org mime-attachment -- Marc Binderberger[EMAIL PROTECTED]Powered by *BSD ;-)
Re: East Coast outage?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am a little rusty on this one, but I seem to remember that AC travels only on the outside skin of the wire but DC uses all the wire. Skin effect is only significant at high frequencies (lots of megahertz and up). At 60hz it can be ignored.
RE: East Coast outage?
--Huh ? Where in the physics of ohms law is Hz a factor ? Having lived off --the grid, where systems are often at max 48v, yes the wires have to be --several 0's of gage to carry the lagre amperages. Much the same in A/B DC legs in --a colo. Up the volts and the amps go down to produce the same power (watts --or work). HMM, it's been a LONG time but I remember high amp, low voltage The formula makes it a swap out. Raise the voltage drop the current, or lower the voltage and raise the current if the resistance stays constant. --I am a little rusty on this one, but I seem to remember that AC travels --only on the outside skin of the wire but DC uses all the wire. This is called the skin effect, and from my RF days we did not consider it to be an issue until you get to close the KHz range. In high voltage transmission lines it may get a little higher than 60 Hz, but I don't think by much. I have many UPS that track HZ and I have seen it coming in from 59.8 to 60.2. The skin effect was a really big deal in the L band systems where I used to work. 1.2 GHz to 1.6 GHz. And in the S Band we had to use pressurized dehumidified transmission Waveguide due to freq and power levels (2 Megawatts). We did AC/DC conversion and worked with 400 Hz power for those systems, and we were not concerned with skin effect at all. But we were concerned with RF induction into the power systems supply lines that could dirty up the power input and create problems for the ac/dc conversion for the discrete electronics. anyway-it's been awhile... J
Re: East Coast outage?
I wasn't aware that there are high voltage DC long-haul lines that then are converted to AC for local distribution. Another use for HVDC is to isolate transmission networks. Hydro Quebec uses Back-to-Back High Voltage DC conversion equipment at its interconnection points with other transmission networks such as the New York, Vermont and Mass. transmision networks. The HVDC interconnection removes frequency synchronization as a concern at the interconnect and allows much simpler protection and control implementations as there are less electrical properties to consider/monitor/manage at the HVDC interconnect point. Perhaps the H-Q interconnect design is one of the reasons that H-Q was unaffected by the blackout. Conversely, the Lake Erie Loop is an example of a richly meshed ring with multiple paths. when synchronized, flow on the mesh/ring is a function of voltage. To import power into a grid you lower the voltage slightly, to export power you raise the voltage slightly. AC Syncronization across the interconnect can limit power transfer capability. Out of sync condition causes the interconnect to be reactive with current peaks leading or lagging voltage peaks. Phase Angle Regulators (PARs) are transformers with phase shifting capabilities. They are often used at AC interconnect points to manipulate the synchronization to optimize power transfer. -Randy
Availability of Natural Gas during Blackout
Some weeks back there was a dicussion on the merits of naural gas versus diesel generators. It is my observation that Natural Gas continued to be available throught this recent blackout. In speaking to a friend who works for the gas company he informed me that the compressor stations on the main pipelines are driven by gas turbines, thus they don't require electrical power to operate. All telemetering/control equipment on the distribution network is either passive, or equipped with natural gas generators to ensure it operates. Did others notice if there was a gas interuption in your area during the blackout ? (A lot of people here were cooking on their Nat. gas bbque here) This was an exceptionally long blackout, did people have trouble getting diesel fuel replenished? Fuel trucks where no doubt having difficulty with traffic congestion due to traffic lights not working. Regards, Randy
Re: Availability of Natural Gas during Blackout
There are a couple of problems with Natural Gas generators: 1. It takes an aweful lot of pressure to get a NG engine up past enough HP to generate more than say 150KW. At least thats what we have seen with current models. It seems to be an issue of pressure, and whether being fed from a pipeline or coming from a tank separte (electric) compressors are almost always needed. 2. In times of weather emergencies, snow and excessive cold, the gas companies routinely shut down gas flow to non-residential areas (like where you would put datacenters) to assure heat for people's homes. This bit me personally in a a very minor way a few years back in a region as far south as McLean, VA. We had a small kitchen with a gas stove in the office and when we got snowed in one night it was shut off. If the gas supply had been powering the backup generator for our datacenter it would have been ugly as the electrical power went out a few hours later. On the other hand, LNG in tanks is a bit more reliable in the snow if you have a large enough tank to provide pressure during cold whether and to get you by during a prolonged snow emergency. In our transmission shelters which are spaced aout 50 miles apart along the fiber right of way, we always try and use LNG generators because they don't have cold start problems the way diesels do, they just fire up. And the power needs for the repeater stations in 65kw so we dont need to worry about the limit in size on LNG engines. -vb - Original Message - From: Randy Neals (ORION) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 10:51 AM Subject: Availability of Natural Gas during Blackout Some weeks back there was a dicussion on the merits of naural gas versus diesel generators. It is my observation that Natural Gas continued to be available throught this recent blackout. In speaking to a friend who works for the gas company he informed me that the compressor stations on the main pipelines are driven by gas turbines, thus they don't require electrical power to operate. All telemetering/control equipment on the distribution network is either passive, or equipped with natural gas generators to ensure it operates. Did others notice if there was a gas interuption in your area during the blackout ? (A lot of people here were cooking on their Nat. gas bbque here) This was an exceptionally long blackout, did people have trouble getting diesel fuel replenished? Fuel trucks where no doubt having difficulty with traffic congestion due to traffic lights not working. Regards, Randy
Re: East Coast outage?
On Saturday 16 August 2003 04:54 pm, Having folded space, the Third Stage Guild Navigator said: Thus spake Petri Helenius [EMAIL PROTECTED] subsidize) local power generation via renewable energy sources (e.g. solar, wind, hydro) it would go a long way towards solving this problem. Rubbish. If in order to make it viable such energy needs to be subsidized then it is not affordable. And solar nor wind are good for base energy production so we´re stuck with other methods unless you want to move IP packets only when it´s windy. Or you store excess power generated on windy/sunny days for later distribution on calm/rainy days: http://www.tva.gov/sites/raccoonmt.htm That still ignores tidal, hydro, and geothermal power, which are available 24x7. And let's not forget ethanol, which is easy to make from excess food crops and has already replaced gasoline entirely in a few countries. Use hydrogen. One solar panel (which will last forever unless you drop something on it) can split H2O into H and O. Store the H for windless days or at night. Feed this to a turbine for electricity and recover heat for hot water, store it in a heat sink, ect. Or feed the H into a fuel cell strip off the electron volts. Now a home user can produce wattage to supply power for his neighbors. The amount of power to be had via these hydrogen processes is huge. Now, try to take out this decentralized power system. You can't, at least not on the scale we saw last week. The by-products of this are water and Oxygen. Hydrogen is our new battery. Please don't go on about it's storage dangers ! LPG (bottle gas) has been used for quite some time and the safety is . We all drive mobile hydrogen bombs, and show no concern. The only problem is that the Oil men are in charge. They want to pipe NG to houses and have us crack NG into hydrogen. Cut the cord ! To stay on topic, consider the long term savings in generating DC directly, via a clean source, instead of converting AC to DC at colos. We pay dearly for the amps on those A and B legs. Replace the multiple utility service feeds, gennys, batt rooms, and DC chargers with a hydrogen feed turbine for each leg. Recover the heat for cooling. end of rant by long haired *nix based hippie
Re: Availability of Natural Gas during Blackout
2. In times of weather emergencies, snow and excessive cold, the gas companies routinely shut down gas flow to non-residential areas This is a contract issue; Commercial customers often get better rates for being 'cutable'... but you need to assure the generator is not one. This is true as long as no emergency is declared. If a state of emergency *is* declared (yes, Nortern Virginia declares a state of emergency for snow flurries) contract or not, commercial customers get cut if the gas is needed for residences. On the other hand, LNG in tanks is a bit more reliable in the snow if you have a large enough tank to provide pressure during cold whether and to getc LNG tanks for any big installation will be BIG. You'll have to pay to keep all the LNG in stock. Propane has another issue -- it can get too cold for it to vaporize, leaving you really SOL. Yes, thats why only small (again sub 65KW) installations make sense. And from experience, we have had -22F in Lancaster, PA and our propane genset started right up. That the coldest we have on record at any of our sites though during a utility outage. -- A host is a host from coast to [EMAIL PROTECTED] no one will talk to a host that's close[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead20915-1433
Re: East Coast outage?
Use hydrogen. One solar panel (which will last forever unless you drop something on it) can split H2O into H and O. Store the H for windless days or at night. Feed this to a turbine for electricity and recover heat for hot water, store it in a heat sink, ect. Or feed the H into a fuel cell What kind of land area of solar panels do you plan to produce enough H for producing a gigawatt 24/7? Then multiply that by 60. You probably have to produce H equivivalent of 180GW to accommodate for nights and cloudier days, even if you would be somewhere where it usually shines. If you want to add windmills to the equation, do the land area calculation taking into account turbulence effects which mandate your mill spacing. Pete
Re: East Coast outage?
On Sunday 17 August 2003 11:55 am, Having folded space, the Third Stage Guild Navigator said: Use hydrogen. One solar panel (which will last forever unless you drop something on it) can split H2O into H and O. Store the H for windless days or at night. Feed this to a turbine for electricity and recover heat for hot water, store it in a heat sink, ect. Or feed the H into a fuel cell What kind of land area of solar panels do you plan to produce enough H for producing a gigawatt 24/7? Then multiply that by 60. You probably have to produce H equivivalent of 180GW to accommodate for nights and cloudier days, even if you would be somewhere where it usually shines. If you want to add windmills to the equation, do the land area calculation taking into account turbulence effects which mandate your mill spacing. Pete The calculations I have seen of hydrogen produced vs watts in indicate solar could supply enough hydrogen to more than satisfy the requirements of a residential user. To calculate the theoretical (maximum) volume of the hydrogen produced, also in cubic meters, from the other data for the current and the time, using Faraday's First Law: Vtheoretical = (R I T t) / (F p z), where R=8.314 Joule/(mol Kelvin), I = current in amps, T is the temperature in Kelvins (273 + Celsius temperature), t = time in seconds, F = Faraday's constant = 96485 Coulombs per mol, p = ambient pressure = about 1 x 105 pascals (one pascal = 1 Joule/meter3), z = number of excess electrons = 2 (for hydrogen, H2), 4 (if you're measuring oxygen production instead). 6 hours sunlight, ave (it's 7.1 here in new mexico) 4 120 watt panels, so: 8.914* 28*303*21600=1.633529e+09 96485*105*2= 20261850 80.620965 cubic meters of hydrogen a day Kyocera KC-120's are 1242mm by 652 mm So, put them on your roof. Lots of unused space. No need to have huge expanses for centralized generation. I've read of Solar Cells as building materials, using the Cells as the shell of the house. Sorry, I do not have a formula to factor in the Exxon Valdez damage, other damage to our enrironment, billions lost last week, ect !
Re: East Coast outage?
And solar nor wind are good for base energy production so we´re stuck with other methods unless you want to move IP packets only when it´s windy. Or you store excess power generated on windy/sunny days for later distribution on calm/rainy days: http://www.tva.gov/sites/raccoonmt.htm That still ignores tidal, hydro, and geothermal power, which are available 24x7. And let's not forget ethanol, which is easy to make from excess food crops and has already replaced gasoline entirely in a few countries. Use hydrogen. One solar panel (which will last forever unless you drop something on it) can split H2O into H and O. Sure, burn energy to store it. Store the H for windless days or at night. Burn energy here as well. Feed this to a turbine for electricity and recover heat for hot water, store it in a heat sink, ect. Burn energy. Or feed the H into a fuel cell strip off the electron volts. Burn energy. Now a home user can produce wattage to supply power for his neighbors. Release energy. The amount of power to be had via these hydrogen processes is huge. Release energy. The by-products of this are water and Oxygen. Release energy. The only problem is that the Oil men are in charge. They want to pipe NG to houses and have us crack NG into hydrogen. Cut the cord ! So let us use N J to let us release M J, where N is significantly greater than M. What a brilliant concept. When someone starts actively doing it, please remind me the name of the company so I can short it all the way to zero. Thanks god that the oil people are in charge. Alex P.S. The problem with ethanol is the same - the total amount of energy needed to crate useful fuel is greater than the amount of energy it generates.
Re: East Coast outage?
On zondag, aug 17, 2003, at 20:57 Europe/Amsterdam, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The calculations I have seen of hydrogen produced vs watts in indicate solar could supply enough hydrogen to more than satisfy the requirements of a residential user. Sure, a regular house has enough surface area to generate this electricity, but not appartment buildings or businesses. But why have the hydrogen in the middle? Batteries aren't as explosive. Also, it seems that the large amount of hydrogen that will leak out (remember, tinyiest molecules ever, but this is well established for other gasses as well) don't do the environment much good. I don't think wholesale replacement of our current power systems is an attainable goal in our lifetime. (And it will happen automatically anyway as oil starts running out and gets so expensive that people who just want to burn it can't afford it anymore.) However, it is still a very good idea to add more solar energy to the mix, both on the large and the small ends of the scale. Small: a few solar panels (with batteries) will give you at least _some_ power when the utility power is out. Being able to recharge your cell phone, run a light, a laptop and an ADSL or cable modem is much, much better than nothing. Large: demand for power peaks when it's hot, but generating capacity is often much lower under these circumstances because river water gets much warmer so power plants that need this water for cooling can't run at full capacity. (We could be facing rolling blackouts because of this soon in Europe.) Guess what: solar panels don't need cooling and their output is highest when the weather is hot = lots of sunshine. So, put them on your roof. Lots of unused space. No need to have huge expanses for centralized generation. I've read of Solar Cells as building materials, using the Cells as the shell of the house. There has recently been a breakthrough that makes it possible to convert more of the sun's spectrum into electricity. This could potentially double the efficiency of solar cells in the future, then maybe they'll be more cost efficient.
Windows update down again?
Hi all, I was just updating a couple of Windows machines and had been using Windows Update without any problems until about 5 mins ago (22:10 GMT) when I've started getting this: Thank you for your interest in Windows Update Windows Update is the online extension of Windows that helps you get the most out of your computer. The latest version of Windows Update is available on computers that are running Microsoft Windows 98, Windows 98 Second Edition, Windows Millennium Edition, Windows 2000 (except Windows 2000 Datacenter Server), Windows XP, and the Windows Server 2003 family. URL is http://v4.windowsupdate.microsoft.com/default.asp which redirects to http://v4.windowsupdate.microsoft.com/en/thanks.asp. Also happens for http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com/. This is from multiple machines running Windows 2000 (Pro and Server) and Windows 2003 server. Anyone else seeing this yet? Does anyone know of an alternative URL for Windows Update in the meantime? Rich
Re: Windows update down again?
It's just come back now. Must have been a temporary holding page while they did some maintenance. On Sun, 17 Aug 2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I was just updating a couple of Windows machines and had been using Windows Update without any problems until about 5 mins ago (22:10 GMT) when I've started getting this: Thank you for your interest in Windows Update Windows Update is the online extension of Windows that helps you get the most out of your computer. The latest version of Windows Update is available on computers that are running Microsoft Windows 98, Windows 98 Second Edition, Windows Millennium Edition, Windows 2000 (except Windows 2000 Datacenter Server), Windows XP, and the Windows Server 2003 family. URL is http://v4.windowsupdate.microsoft.com/default.asp which redirects to http://v4.windowsupdate.microsoft.com/en/thanks.asp. Also happens for http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com/. This is from multiple machines running Windows 2000 (Pro and Server) and Windows 2003 server. Anyone else seeing this yet? Does anyone know of an alternative URL for Windows Update in the meantime? Rich -- Virus scanned by edNET.
Re: East Coast outage?
On Sunday 17 August 2003 03:11 pm, Having folded space, the Third Stage Guild Navigator said: On zondag, aug 17, 2003, at 20:57 Europe/Amsterdam, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure, a regular house has enough surface area to generate this electricity, but not appartment buildings or businesses. But why have the hydrogen in the middle? Batteries aren't as explosive. Also, it seems that the large amount of hydrogen that will leak out (remember, tinyiest molecules ever, but this is well established for other gasses as well) don't do the environment much good. Yep. Batt rooms do go boom if not vented. However you loose quite a bit in the charge/recharge cycles. i have not worked with the gel or sealed batts that don't leak anything. When I was off the grid, I factored in the costs to transport them vs the cheap marine deep cycle batts 30 miles away at Wal Mart and the cheap ones won. I don't think wholesale replacement of our current power systems is an attainable goal in our lifetime. (And it will happen automatically anyway as oil starts running out and gets so expensive that people who just want to burn it can't afford it anymore.) However, it is still a very good idea to add more solar energy to the mix, both on the large and the small ends of the scale. Small: a few solar panels (with batteries) will give you at least _some_ power when the utility power is out. Being able to recharge your cell phone, run a light, a laptop and an ADSL or cable modem is much, much better than nothing. Large: demand for power peaks when it's hot, but generating capacity is often much lower under these circumstances because river water gets much warmer so power plants that need this water for cooling can't run at full capacity. (We could be facing rolling blackouts because of this soon in Europe.) Guess what: solar panels don't need cooling and their output is highest when the weather is hot = lots of sunshine. Totally agree. Some here seem to be taking this as an all or nothing. So much high fat thinking going on. It's gotta be big and it has to feed the status quo greed where the few make the money. I learned, while off the grid, that if I made better choices (with my energy appliances) I did not have to suffer. You do pay more for devices that do the same work with less power. Cheap things wear out sooner. last time I checked my NG fridge is still keeping the ice cream rock hard and the person I sold it to is very happy. All it takes is a candle sized flame. Presently now in the grid, however my landlord placed all windows on the south side. In northern New Mexico I require no heat during the day time, in winter, and can make it most of the time with a little heat from the air tight. I simlpe walk in the woods yields all the wood I need; the cat powered bed warmers do the rest. So, put them on your roof. Lots of unused space. No need to have huge expanses for centralized generation. I've read of Solar Cells as building materials, using the Cells as the shell of the house. There has recently been a breakthrough that makes it possible to convert more of the sun's spectrum into electricity. This could potentially double the efficiency of solar cells in the future, then maybe they'll be more cost efficient.
Re: MPLS ICMP Extensions
On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 01:40:01PM -0400, Leo Bicknell wrote: I wanted to get some other opinions on some new features that have appeared in recent code from the popular vendors. It appears there is a new draft, a copy of which can be found at http://www.watersprings.org/links/mlr/id/draft-ietf-mpls-icmp-01.txt that allows MPLS enabled boxes to return some additonal information in a traceroute packet. That's all well and good, and I can see how that might be amazingly useful to someone running an MPLS network, however, it seems to expose data much further than the local network. Here's a random example from a traceroute I recently performed (on a Juniper): traceroute wcg.net [snip] 11 hrndva1wcx3-oc48.wcg.net (64.200.95.117) 91.935 ms 102.652 ms 92.960 ms MPLS Label=13198 CoS=0 TTL=1 S=1 12 hrndva1wcx2-oc48.wcg.net (64.200.95.77) 92.593 ms 92.785 ms 93.119 ms MPLS Label=12676 CoS=0 TTL=1 S=1 13 nycmny2wcx2-oc48.wcg.net (64.200.240.45) 93.273 ms 93.121 ms 93.067 ms MPLS Label=12632 CoS=0 TTL=1 S=1 14 nycmny2wcx3-oc48.wcg.net (64.200.87.78) 104.755 ms 91.949 ms 92.169 ms MPLS Label=12672 CoS=0 TTL=1 S=1 15 chcgil1wcx3-oc48.wcg.net (64.200.240.37) 92.021 ms 91.737 ms 91.684 ms MPLS Label=12592 CoS=0 TTL=1 S=1 16 chcgil1wcx3-pos5-0.wcg.net (64.200.210.114) 175.907 ms 278.144 ms 203.763 ms MPLS Label=12695 CoS=0 TTL=1 S=1 17 chcgil1wcx2-oc48.wcg.net (64.200.103.73) 93.286 ms 93.230 ms 93.593 ms MPLS Label=13506 CoS=0 TTL=1 S=1 18 stlsmo3wcf1-atm.wcg.net (64.200.210.158) 92.780 ms 92.344 ms 92.596 ms If anyone is interested I have a patch for LBL traceroute to display this information too. Download ftp://ftp.ee.lbl.gov/traceroute.tar.gz, patch in http://e.wheel.dk/~jesper/traceroute.diff, and you will have [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/home/jesper traceroute wcg.net traceroute to wcg.net (64.200.241.26), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 217.79.98.25.adsl.griffin.net.uk (217.79.98.25) 0.895 ms 0.836 ms 0.751 ms 2 217.79.96.209 (217.79.96.209) 21.557 ms 18.431 ms 19.075 ms 3 f0-0.core1.tchx.lon.uk.griffin.com (217.79.96.1) 19.768 ms 19.094 ms 19.285 ms 4 lndnuk1icx1.wcg.net (195.66.224.105) 18.824 ms 20.206 ms 19.800 ms 5 nycmny2wcx2-pos15-3.wcg.net (64.200.87.61) 126.360 ms 127.665 ms 127.702 ms MPLS Label=12632 CoS=0 TTL=1 S=1 6 nycmny2wcx3-oc48.wcg.net (64.200.87.74) 125.205 ms 126.923 ms 125.993 ms MPLS Label=12672 CoS=0 TTL=1 S=1 7 chcgil1wcx3-oc48.wcg.net (64.200.240.37) 126.425 ms 126.212 ms 126.220 ms MPLS Label=12592 CoS=0 TTL=1 S=1 8 brvwil1wcxa-pos9-0.wcg.net (64.200.103.193) 126.920 ms 127.660 ms 127.462 ms MPLS Label=12604 CoS=0 TTL=1 S=1 9 64.200.236.14 (64.200.236.14) 129.886 ms 125.499 ms 126.715 ms MPLS Label=13506 CoS=0 TTL=1 S=1 10 stlsmo3wcf1-atm.wcg.net (64.200.210.158) 126.080 ms 124.598 ms 125.235 ms 11 stl-clust01.wcg.net (64.200.241.26) 126.723 ms 124.544 ms 124.736 ms /Jesper -- Jesper Skriver, jesper(at)skriver(dot)dk - CCIE #5456 One Unix to rule them all, One Resolver to find them, One IP to bring them all and in the zone to bind them.
Did Sean Gorman's maps show the cascading vulnerability in Ohio?
So, the US Government wants to classify Sean Gorman's student project. The question is did Mr. Gorman's maps divulge the vulnerability in the East Coast power grid that resulted in the blackouts this week? Would it be better to know about these vulnerabilities, and do something about them; or is it better to keep them secret until they fail in a catastrophic way?
RE: Did Sean Gorman's maps show the cascading vulnerability in Ohio?
-So, the US Government wants to classify Sean Gorman's student project. -The question is did Mr. Gorman's maps divulge the vulnerability in the -East Coast power grid that resulted in the blackouts this week? -Would it be better to know about these vulnerabilities, and do something -about them; or is it better to keep them secret until they fail in a -catastrophic way? This is a question whose answer I am willing to bet will remain classified should his research be classified. J
NYC 9-1-1 problems due to generator/Cable modems affect police
City to Investigate 911 Outages During Blackout By LUKAS I. ALPERT Associated Press Writer August 17, 2003, 3:37 PM EDT Problems with the system's telephone service provider caused disruptions of up to 14 minutes. We've got to make sure that doesn't happen again, Mayor Michael Bloomberg said Sunday. [...] The disruptions were caused by the failure of a backup diesel generator at the Verizon Communications office that supplies power to the city's 911 headquarters in downtown Brooklyn, company spokesman John Bonomo said. [...] On Sunday, nine police precincts were still experiencing problems connecting to the department's main computer system, stemming from disruptions with their cable modem connections.
Re: Did Sean Gorman's maps show the cascading vulnerability in Ohio?
On Sunday 17 August 2003 06:28 pm, Having folded space, the Third Stage Guild Navigator said: So, the US Government wants to classify Sean Gorman's student project. The question is did Mr. Gorman's maps divulge the vulnerability in the East Coast power grid that resulted in the blackouts this week? Would it be better to know about these vulnerabilities, and do something about them; or is it better to keep them secret until they fail in a catastrophic way? Please correct me if I misunderstand this, but I have a different take on all of this. Power Cos. have for some time traded power in a futures market system. Org A buys x gigawatts at an attractive price to be delivered at a specific time in the future from Org B, via the grid. Org C is facing a brown/blackout today so they are highly motivated to pay any price; Org A's contract terms with Org B fit Org C's needs so Org A makes a killing. Given that the players were producers, buyers and sellers of the same product this creates no incentaive to build out additional capasity. Quite different from say, Hog futures, were the supply side and demand side are not the same person. According the the NPR report I heard on this, the money to be made here is huge provided there was just enough power or not quite enough. So there were not market checks and ballances. having additional capasity on hand, in this system, drives down price in a futures market. So back on Sean's question, maps did not divulge this; at least not the primary cause. I see the primary cause as economic. It seems to me we are seeking a mechanical cause instead of looking at the fauly business model that allowed this to happen.
