The Cidr Report
This report has been generated at Fri Feb 1 21:10:05 2008 AEST.
The report analyses the BGP Routing Table of AS2.0 router
and generates a report on aggregation potential within the table.
Check http://www.cidr-report.org for a current version of this report.
Recent Table History
Date PrefixesCIDR Agg
25-01-08247660 162166
26-01-08248051 151070
27-01-08241439 156427
28-01-08248360 155966
29-01-08248310 156462
30-01-08248257 156462
31-01-08 0 156462
01-02-08 -1077941796 156462
AS Summary
0 Number of ASes in routing system
0 Number of ASes announcing only one prefix
1554 Largest number of prefixes announced by an AS
AS4755 : VSNL-AS Videsh Sanchar Nigam Ltd. Autonomous System
0 Largest address span announced by an AS (/32s)
: MIT-GATEWAYS - Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Aggregation Summary
The algorithm used in this report proposes aggregation only
when there is a precise match using the AS path, so as
to preserve traffic transit policies. Aggregation is also
proposed across non-advertised address space ('holes').
--- 01Feb08 ---
ASnumNetsNow NetsAggr NetGain % Gain Description
Table 248256 1564629179437.0% All ASes
AS9498 1112 66 104694.1% BBIL-AP BHARTI BT INTERNET
LTD.
AS4323 1383 371 101273.2% TWTC - Time Warner Telecom,
Inc.
AS18566 1041 60 98194.2% COVAD - Covad Communications
Co.
AS4755 1554 668 88657.0% VSNL-AS Videsh Sanchar Nigam
Ltd. Autonomous System
AS11492 1210 431 77964.4% CABLEONE - CABLE ONE
AS22773 847 80 76790.6% CCINET-2 - Cox Communications
Inc.
AS19262 877 151 72682.8% VZGNI-TRANSIT - Verizon
Internet Services Inc.
AS6478 1101 396 70564.0% ATT-INTERNET3 - ATT WorldNet
Services
AS8151 1149 458 69160.1% Uninet S.A. de C.V.
AS17488 961 316 64567.1% HATHWAY-NET-AP Hathway IP Over
Cable Internet
AS15270 655 99 55684.9% AS-PAETEC-NET - PaeTec
Communications, Inc.
AS18101 610 78 53287.2% RIL-IDC Reliance Infocom Ltd
Internet Data Centre,
AS6197 1035 518 51750.0% BATI-ATL - BellSouth Network
Solutions, Inc
AS4780 597 81 51686.4% SEEDNET Digital United Inc.
AS2386 1353 844 50937.6% INS-AS - ATT Data
Communications Services
AS4134 863 357 50658.6% CHINANET-BACKBONE
No.31,Jin-rong Street
AS7018 1482 1009 47331.9% ATT-INTERNET4 - ATT WorldNet
Services
AS19916 563 100 46382.2% ASTRUM-0001 - OLM LLC
AS4766 842 387 45554.0% KIXS-AS-KR Korea Telecom
AS4812 546 94 45282.8% CHINANET-SH-AP China Telecom
(Group)
AS855557 113 44479.7% CANET-ASN-4 - Bell Aliant
AS17676 506 64 44287.4% GIGAINFRA BB TECHNOLOGY Corp.
AS7011 1032 595 43742.3% FRONTIER-AND-CITIZENS -
Frontier Communications of
America, Inc.
AS3356 839 415 42450.5% LEVEL3 Level 3 Communications
AS4808 515 128 38775.1% CHINA169-BJ CNCGROUP IP
network China169 Beijing
Province Network
AS5668 668 289 37956.7% AS-5668 - CenturyTel Internet
Holdings, Inc.
AS9443 450 75 37583.3% INTERNETPRIMUS-AS-AP Primus
Telecommunications
AS6140 609 235 37461.4% IMPSAT-USA - ImpSat USA, Inc.
AS7545 505 136 36973.1% TPG-INTERNET-AP TPG Internet
Pty Ltd
AS4668 523 173 35066.9% LGNET-AS-KR LG CNS
Total 25985 878717198
BGP Update Report
BGP Update Report Interval: 31-Dec-07 -to- 29-Jan-08 (30 days) Observation Point: BGP Peering with AS2.0 TOP 20 Unstable Origin AS Rank ASNUpds % Upds/PfxAS-Name 1 - AS17421 154079 2.2%4054.7 -- EMOME-TW Long Distance Mobile Business Group, 2 - AS815188363 1.3% 76.4 -- Uninet S.A. de C.V. 3 - AS23563 78359 1.1%1205.5 -- VITSSEN-SUWON-AS-KR Tbroad Suwon Broadcating Corporati 4 - AS949875888 1.1% 66.2 -- BBIL-AP BHARTI BT INTERNET LTD. 5 - AS346261642 0.9% 373.6 -- HINET Data Communication Business Group 6 - AS478252734 0.8%3766.7 -- GSNET Data Communication Business Group 7 - AS24731 52624 0.8%1031.8 -- ASN-NESMA National Engineering Services and Marketing Company Ltd. (NESMA) 8 - AS462146410 0.7% 303.3 -- UNSPECIFIED UNINET-TH 9 - AS730344150 0.6% 29.4 -- Telecom Argentina S.A. 10 - AS22629 43176 0.6% 21588.0 -- NORWORLD - NORTHWESTERN CORPORATION 11 - AS480240432 0.6% 80.9 -- ASN-IINET iiNet Limited 12 - AS26829 39332 0.6% 39332.0 -- YKK-USA - YKK USA,INC 13 - AS20214 38779 0.6% 8.4 -- CCCH-AS6 - Comcast Cable Communications Holdings, Inc 14 - AS983538600 0.6% 303.9 -- GITS-TH-AS-AP Government Information Technology Services 15 - AS702938051 0.5% 95.4 -- WINDSTREAM - Windstream Communications Inc 16 - AS40474 37922 0.5% 37922.0 -- ABML-2 - Advantage Business Media, LLC 17 - AS958335296 0.5% 30.8 -- SIFY-AS-IN Sify Limited 18 - AS614035019 0.5% 45.7 -- IMPSAT-USA - ImpSat USA, Inc. 19 - AS18422 33826 0.5%1537.5 -- ITRINET-AS-TW Industrial Technology Research Institute 20 - AS475032207 0.5% 138.8 -- CSLOXINFO-ISP-AS-AP CSLOXINFO Public Company Limited. TOP 20 Unstable Origin AS (Updates per announced prefix) Rank ASNUpds % Upds/PfxAS-Name 1 - AS26829 39332 0.6% 39332.0 -- YKK-USA - YKK USA,INC 2 - AS40474 37922 0.5% 37922.0 -- ABML-2 - Advantage Business Media, LLC 3 - AS22629 43176 0.6% 21588.0 -- NORWORLD - NORTHWESTERN CORPORATION 4 - AS19334 18383 0.3% 18383.0 -- SPORTLINE-DBC - SPORTLINE 5 - AS37021 0.1%7021.0 -- BUSINESSUNITY-AS Business Unity Ltd. 6 - AS828220309 0.3%6769.7 -- FIDONET FidoNet Registration Services Ltd 7 - AS917919765 0.3%6588.3 -- KNOWTION-LONDON Knowtion Ltd. 8 - AS8276 6340 0.1%6340.0 -- ROGUEPACKET Roguepacket Networks 9 - AS309295697 0.1%5697.0 -- HUTCB Hidrotechnical Faculty - Technical University 10 - AS10229 22881 0.3%4576.2 -- YAHOO-TPE Internet Content Provider 11 - AS24506 17786 0.2%4446.5 -- YAHOO-TP2-AP Yahoo! Taiwan Inc., 12 - AS30297 21368 0.3%4273.6 -- MAGMA-DESIGN-AUTOMATION - Magma Design Automation, Inc. 13 - AS241604070 0.1%4070.0 -- CHIMEI-AS Chi Mei Corporation 14 - AS17421 154079 2.2%4054.7 -- EMOME-TW Long Distance Mobile Business Group, 15 - AS237124054 0.1%4054.0 -- ISC-TPE1 Internet Systems Consortium, Inc. 16 - AS418803943 0.1%3943.0 -- BOSE-EUROPE-AS Bose European Management Services B.V. 17 - AS236753942 0.1%3942.0 -- TSMCGDN-AS-AP Taiwan Semiconductor Manufactoring Company, Ltd. 18 - AS478252734 0.8%3766.7 -- GSNET Data Communication Business Group 19 - AS12611 10715 0.1%3571.7 -- RKOM R-KOM Regensburger Telekommunikations GmbH Co. KG 20 - AS184103423 0.1%3423.0 -- TW-104IT-AS 104 Information Technology Co., Ltd. TOP 20 Unstable Prefixes Rank Prefix Upds % Origin AS -- AS Name 1 - 203.101.87.0/24 57024 0.8% AS9498 -- BBIL-AP BHARTI BT INTERNET LTD. 2 - 12.108.254.0/24 39332 0.5% AS26829 -- YKK-USA - YKK USA,INC 3 - 65.126.154.0/24 37922 0.5% AS40474 -- ABML-2 - Advantage Business Media, LLC 4 - 203.55.229.160/2 35918 0.5% AS4802 -- ASN-IINET iiNet Limited 5 - 209.163.125.0/24 29925 0.4% AS14390 -- CORENET - Coretel America, Inc. 6 - 80.243.64.0/2027252 0.4% AS21332 -- NTC-AS New Telephone Company 7 - 64.79.128.0/1925729 0.3% AS23005 -- SWITCH-COMMUNICATIONS - SWITCH Communications Group LLC 8 - 199.96.16.0/2121588 0.3% AS22629 -- NORWORLD - NORTHWESTERN CORPORATION 9 - 199.96.24.0/2221588 0.3% AS22629 -- NORWORLD - NORTHWESTERN CORPORATION 10 - 208.70.209.0/24 21341 0.3% AS30297 -- MAGMA-DESIGN-AUTOMATION - Magma Design Automation, Inc. 11 - 207.181.144.0/24 19666 0.3% AS19750 -- CTI-TX - C2C Fiber, Inc. AS32004 -- BIG-ASN - Business Information Group, Inc. 12 - 63.169.11.0/2418383 0.2%
Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/third-undersea-cable-reportedly-cut/story.aspx?guid={1AAB2A79-E983-4E0E-BC39-68A120DC16D9}
We had another cut today between Dubai and Muscat three hours back.
The cable was about 80G capacity, it had telephone, Internet data,
everything, one Flag official, who declined to be named, told Zawya
Dow Jones.
The cable, known as Falcon, delivers services to countries in the
Mediterranean and Gulf region, he added.
etc etc.
On Jan 31, 2008 10:05 PM, Martin Hannigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Jan 31, 2008 11:20 AM, Rod Beck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
http://www.kisca.org.uk/Web_SWApproaches.pdf
And if you enlarge the map, you can see little dots on the lines
representing the cables that denote repairs.
Lots and lots of repairs. Treacherous waters.
The distances are consistent with repeaters/op amps. And the chart
legend notates the same.
Coincidentally, Telecom Egypt announced a new cable to be built by
Alcatel-Lucent this morning. TE North, which looks like it's going
from Egypt to France, is an 8 pair system (128 x 10Gb/s x 8).
Thanks for your input.
-M
--
Suresh Ramasubramanian ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Blackholing traffic by ASN
wee! and for some extra fun, just append the bad-guy's ASN to your route announcements, force bgp loop-detection to kill the traffic on their end (presuming they don't default-route as well) Even more fun if you are not the only one filtering that ASN. :) Andras
Re: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
There's an interesting article at http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/technology/AP-Internet-Outages-Cables.html on cable chokepoints.
Re: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
On Feb 1, 2008 11:43 AM, Steven M. Bellovin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There's an interesting article at http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/technology/AP-Internet-Outages-Cables.html on cable chokepoints. NEW YORK (AP) -- The lines that tie the globe together by carrying phone calls and Internet traffic are just two-thirds of an inch thick where they lie on the ocean floor. This article is somewhat misleading. Semantics, but it set the tone of the article for me and probably most of the public. The cables are able to have their physical characteristics changed by the ability to splice joints into the cable and connect two physically disparate ends to serve specific purposes related bottom geologies, depth, and other dangers. Different cable types are deployed to mitigate different risks such as fishing, quakes, slides, etc. The lightweight cable may be thinner, but is used in less risky settings like massive depths. When you get to something like heavy weight armored on the edge of a fishing ground or winding through a treacherous bottom geology, your're talking much larger diameters and much more weight, as Rod Beck had mentioned previously. There are many variables that go into route selection and cabling which impact type. Cost is one. -M
Re: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
The Submarine Cable Improvement Group http://www.scig.net/ has plenty of details about trends in submarine cable damage and improvements in submarine cable protection.
RE: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Martin Hannigan Sent: Fri 2/1/2008 5:01 PM To: Steven M. Bellovin Cc: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption On Feb 1, 2008 11:43 AM, Steven M. Bellovin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There's an interesting article at http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/technology/AP-Internet-Outages-Cables.html on cable chokepoints. NEW YORK (AP) -- The lines that tie the globe together by carrying phone calls and Internet traffic are just two-thirds of an inch thick where they lie on the ocean floor. This article is somewhat misleading. Semantics, but it set the tone of the article for me and probably most of the public. The cables are able to have their physical characteristics changed by the ability to splice joints into the cable and connect two physically disparate ends to serve specific purposes related bottom geologies, depth, and other dangers. Different cable types are deployed to mitigate different risks such as fishing, quakes, slides, etc. The lightweight cable may be thinner, but is used in less risky settings like massive depths. When you get to something like heavy weight armored on the edge of a fishing ground or winding through a treacherous bottom geology, your're talking much larger diameters and much more weight, as Rod Beck had mentioned previously. There are many variables that go into route selection and cabling which impact type. Cost is one. -M Weight is a bigger issue than most people realize. In order to lift a cable out of the water and onto the deck of a Global Marine or Tyco Submarine ship, it has be cut and the two segments lifted out of the water, spliced, and then a 'joint' is placed at the splice point. The weight of even a thin cable is too great to be lifted without being cut in two.
RE: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
Of course, we all know the Mossad (Israeli secret services) and CIA did it as part of the global conspiracy against the Middle East and Third World ... In recent years I have restrained myself, but from time to time the 'old Rod Beck' manages to evade the supervision of the Super Ego (presumably you know your Freudian psychology). But seriously, double failures occur all the time. TAT-14 went dark for over 24 hours on December 28, 2003 when one cable was damaged and the switch of traffic to the other cable caused the second cable to experience a repeater failure. Probability dictates that the improbable will happen given enough time. The improbable is unlikely, not impossible. Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: Ahmed Maged (amaged) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Fri 2/1/2008 6:05 PM To: Steven M. Bellovin; Martin Hannigan Cc: Rod Beck; Hank Nussbacher; Sean Donelan; nanog@merit.edu Subject: RE: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption Doesn't look normal to me that both cables were cut 'accidently' -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven M. Bellovin Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:49 PM To: Martin Hannigan Cc: Rod Beck; Hank Nussbacher; Sean Donelan; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption Today's NY Times reports that the problem was caused by two near-simultaneous cable failures: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/business/worldbusiness/31cable.html
Re: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
Weight is a bigger issue than most people realize. perhaps folk would benefit from [re]reading Neal Stephenson's wonderful classic bit of gonzo journalism in Wired, http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/4.12/ffglass.html. randy
Re: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
perhaps my favorite magazine article of all time. On Feb 1, 2008 1:13 PM, Randy Bush [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Weight is a bigger issue than most people realize. perhaps folk would benefit from [re]reading Neal Stephenson's wonderful classic bit of gonzo journalism in Wired, http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/4.12/ffglass.html. randy
AAAAs in the Root and /48 Filtering
All, As you may be aware, the DNS root zone will be updated on Monday, February 4, with resource records for six of the root servers. (Please see http://iana.org/reports/root--announcement.html for IANA's official announcement.) In preparation for this change, we have noticed that some sites seem to be having reachability problems to the new root server IPv6 addresses that are located in critical infrastructure Micro-allocations (/47s or /48s), but not to the root servers located in /32s. Further testing has shown that we can ping these sites experiencing reachability problems when sourcing the provider allocated (PA) space on our links that aggregates up to a /32, but not when sourcing from the provider independent (PI) /48s of our root servers. With the RRs going into the root zone on Monday, now is a good time to check your IPv6 route filters. To prevent reachability problems, network operators should update IPv6 route filters to permit up to at least /48s from the appropriate RIR Micro-allocation blocks. I tried to gather as many of these blocks as I could find from the RIRs. Notably, I wasn't able to identify anything from AfriNIC -- hopefully someone on the list will be able to fill in that gap. This list is not meant to be complete nor authoritative, but it does cover all of the root server IPv6 addresses that are going live on Monday (that we are aware of) and that are in blocks allocated as /47s or 48s. That being said, please accept at least /48s from these blocks ASAP, or your network may experience reachability problems to the IPv6 root servers. ARIN (http://www.arin.net/reference/micro_allocations.html, http://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#six10) 2001:0500::/30 RIPE (https://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-ncc-managed-address-space.html) 2001:7F8::/29 APNIC (http://www.apnic.net/db/min-alloc.html) 2001:0C00:/23 2001:07FA:/32 LACNIC (http://lacnic.net/en/registro/index.html) 2001:12f8:::/35 2001:12f8:4000::/35 If you are having IPv6 reachability problems to the V6 IP addresses for a.root-servers.net and j.root-servers.net (2001:503:BA3e::2:30 and 2001:503:C27::2:30) please feel free to contact us. We may be able to assist in getting filters updated or working around any connectivity issues. Thank you, Frank Scalzo VeriSign
Re: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
Dorn Hetzel wrote: perhaps my favorite magazine article of all time. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/4.12/ffglass.html. the original came with pictures sigh. i tried the wayback machine, but could not find a version with them. :( i guess i should wget the great ones with pics before they fade. but i just can't archive everything. and there are copyright issues anyway. randy
Re: AAAAs in the Root and /48 Filtering
On 1 feb 2008, at 20:22, Scalzo, Frank wrote: I tried to gather as many of these blocks as I could find from the RIRs. Notably, I wasn't able to identify anything from AfriNIC -- hopefully someone on the list will be able to fill in that gap. Hope springs eternal... According to: http://www.ripe.net/ripe/maillists/archives/address-policy-wg/2007/msg00542.html We have consequently as of today started making /48 PI assignments from the following block: 2001:43f8::/29
Re: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
On Feb 1, 2008 6:37 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/third-undersea-cable-reportedly-cut/story.aspx?guid={1AAB2A79-E983-4E0E-BC39-68A120DC16D9}
We had another cut today between Dubai and Muscat three hours back.
The cable was about 80G capacity, it had telephone, Internet data,
everything, one Flag official, who declined to be named, told Zawya
Dow Jones.
The cable, known as Falcon, delivers services to countries in the
Mediterranean and Gulf region, he added.
this (3 undersea cables in about a week, serving the same geographic
area, with two of the cuts happening on the same day!) is leaving the
realm of improbability and approaching the realm of conspiracy ...
(either that, or the backhoe operators' union has decided there's
better money to be made on water than on land.)
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED],darkuncle.net} || 0x5537F527
http://darkuncle.net/pubkey.asc for public key
Re: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 14:21:00 -0800
Scott Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Feb 1, 2008 6:37 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/third-undersea-cable-reportedly-cut/story.aspx?guid={1AAB2A79-E983-4E0E-BC39-68A120DC16D9}
We had another cut today between Dubai and Muscat three hours
back. The cable was about 80G capacity, it had telephone, Internet
data, everything, one Flag official, who declined to be named,
told Zawya Dow Jones.
The cable, known as Falcon, delivers services to countries in the
Mediterranean and Gulf region, he added.
this (3 undersea cables in about a week, serving the same geographic
area, with two of the cuts happening on the same day!) is leaving the
realm of improbability and approaching the realm of conspiracy ...
(either that, or the backhoe operators' union has decided there's
better money to be made on water than on land.)
Yah. I'm a security guy, and hence suspicious by nature -- our slogan
is Paranoia is our Profession -- and I'm getting very concerned. The
old saying comes to mind: once is happenstance, twice is coincidence,
but the third time is enemy action. The alternative some common mode
failure -- perhaps the storm others have noted.
--Steve Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb
RE: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
Not at all, there have been cables in the water since 1858 (first TransAtlantic cable - telegraph). Right now there are 80 major cables out there. Give yourself 170 years of undersea cables and calculate the odds. :) Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein.
Re: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
On Feb 1, 2008 2:35 PM, Rod Beck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not at all, there have been cables in the water since 1858 (first TransAtlantic cable - telegraph). Right now there are 80 major cables out there. Give yourself 170 years of undersea cables and calculate the odds. :) hm. I wonder what the odds are (I don't have enough figures to do the math myself): 80 cables worldwide (first time I'd heard that figure, actually) X square miles of shipping lanes Y ships in those lanes Z square miles of overlap between shipping lanes and cable run # of times, on average, a ship drops anchor outside of a port maybe there's a lot more overlap in shipping lanes and cable runs than I thought ... (or maybe we just got unlucky, and we'll have a nice long period of no undersea cuts following these :)) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED],darkuncle.net} || 0x5537F527 http://darkuncle.net/pubkey.asc for public key
RE: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
Well, when you have all these cables running through narrow straits or converging to the same stretch of beach, it does not strike me as at all extraordinary. An important factor is cooperation. Is there cooperation between the fiber optic guys and fishing associations to minimize hits? I would wager there is close to zero. Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Martin Hannigan Sent: Fri 2/1/2008 10:33 PM To: Ahmed Maged (amaged) Cc: Steven M. Bellovin; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption On Feb 1, 2008 2:25 PM, Ahmed Maged (amaged) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does look normal to me is far from a global conspiracy theory. Thank you for the translation but I think you got it wrong. I agree, there should be a sanity check as I understand that they are within close proximity of each other. Two ships slipping anchors and causing cable breaks in the same area is odd, but if there's a storm in the area, that would not be that much of a surprise. There should be some logic to the madness. I think that the moral of the story is that more operators should try to better understand what diversity means beyond the metro. The challenge is getting the information. The Teleography series of internet/sub maps are interesting. They don't demonstrate diversity though, since they show figurative routing. Those nice and straight lines are a pipe dream. -M -M
Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
On Feb 1, 2008 2:25 PM, Ahmed Maged (amaged) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does look normal to me is far from a global conspiracy theory. Thank you for the translation but I think you got it wrong. I agree, there should be a sanity check as I understand that they are within close proximity of each other. Two ships slipping anchors and causing cable breaks in the same area is odd, but if there's a storm in the area, that would not be that much of a surprise. There should be some logic to the madness. I think that the moral of the story is that more operators should try to better understand what diversity means beyond the metro. The challenge is getting the information. The Teleography series of internet/sub maps are interesting. They don't demonstrate diversity though, since they show figurative routing. Those nice and straight lines are a pipe dream. -M -M
Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 22:42:02 - Rod Beck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, when you have all these cables running through narrow straits or converging to the same stretch of beach, it does not strike me as at all extraordinary. But they aren't near each other. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/business/worldbusiness/31cable.html says that the first two cuts were in the Mediterranean, near Marseille and Alexandria; the third was in the Persian Gulf, near Dubai (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/technology/AP-Internet-Outages.html). --Steve Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb
RE: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
Martin Hannigan wrote: On Feb 1, 2008 2:25 PM, Ahmed Maged (amaged) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does look normal to me is far from a global conspiracy theory. Thank you for the translation but I think you got it wrong. I agree, there should be a sanity check as I understand that they are within close proximity of each other. Two ships slipping anchors and causing cable breaks in the same area is odd, but if there's a storm in the area, that would not be that much of a surprise. There should be some logic to the madness. I think that the moral of the story is that more operators should try to better understand what diversity means beyond the metro. The challenge is getting the information. The Teleography series of internet/sub maps are interesting. They don't demonstrate diversity though, since they show figurative routing. Those nice and straight lines are a pipe dream. -M -M Well, when you have all these cables running through narrow straits or converging to the same stretch of beach, it does not strike me as at all extraordinary. An important factor is cooperation. Is there cooperation between the fiber optic guys and fishing associations to minimize hits? I would wager there is close to zero. Roderick S. Beck Wouldn't that be a pretty narrow tightrope to walk from a security standpoint? The undersea cable maps are deliberately vague, specifically to try to avoid making them easy targets of terrorism. Which is the bigger threat? Boat anchors and fishing nets because of inaccurate maps or deliberate sabotage because of accurate maps? I guess you pick your poison. Andrew ...don't we rehash these same issues every time there's an undersea cable failure?
RE: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
Hi Steve, TransAtlantic cables average three repairs a year. That's the industry average. So given 7 high capacity cable systems, that's 21 repairs a year. Now, not all damaged cables go out of service. In fact, most stay in service until the repair begins. But the public rarely hears about a TransAtlantic cable going dark. Yet it does happen quite regularly in the business. Why? Because there are seven very high capacity (multi-terabit) systems to route traffic across! There is no need to announce to the public that a cable been cut. That is not the case in the Midterranean or the Persian Gulf. You have only a few systems (relatively low capacity) serving a huge population. In fact, I suspect Flag is probably the sole provider for many of these countries. So yes, when the only guy in town falls down, it's going to be noticed. That's the real answer. Regards, Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein.
Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 23:07:16 - Rod Beck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Steve, TransAtlantic cables average three repairs a year. That's the industry average. So given 7 high capacity cable systems, that's 21 repairs a year. Now, not all damaged cables go out of service. In fact, most stay in service until the repair begins. But the public rarely hears about a TransAtlantic cable going dark. Yet it does happen quite regularly in the business. Why? Because there are seven very high capacity (multi-terabit) systems to route traffic across! There is no need to announce to the public that a cable been cut. That is not the case in the Midterranean or the Persian Gulf. You have only a few systems (relatively low capacity) serving a huge population. In fact, I suspect Flag is probably the sole provider for many of these countries. So yes, when the only guy in town falls down, it's going to be noticed. I hope you're right. As I noted, by profession I'm paranoid. I've even contemplated the uses of deliberate cable cuts; see http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/papers/reroute.pdf for some thoughts from five years ago. But I hope you're right. --Steve Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb
RE: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
Telecommunication facilities have rarely been targets of terrorism. There is only one known case - the Tamil Tigers destroyed a central office in Sri Lanka some years back. My guess is that terrorists want to kill people, not destroy optical muxes, Class 5 switches, and the like. And the undersea cable maps are not deliberately vague. There are very accurate maps on the Web so that fishing boats can avoid the cables, which every couple years cause a small fishing to capsize. Boats are the prinicipal threat. The next important threat is oceanic cross currents that erode the plastic cladding that protects the fiber and the copper rod that carries the power. Regards, Roderick.
RE: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
RodBeck said: Telecommunication facilities have rarely been targets of terrorism. There is only one known case - the Tamil Tigers destroyed a central office in Sri Lanka some years back. My guess is that terrorists want to kill people, not destroy optical muxes, Class 5 switches, and the like. Actually, last year, Scotland Yard claimed Al Qaeda planned on blowing up one of the Telehouse facilities in the UK: http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/garfinkel/17561/ Randy
Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
RE: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption - Original Message - From: Rod Beck Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 12:42 PM Subject: RE: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption Well, when you have all these cables running through narrow straits or converging to the same stretch of beach, it does not strike me as at all extraordinary. An important factor is cooperation. Is there cooperation between the fiber optic guys and fishing associations to minimize hits? I would wager there is close to zero. ~~ Here's at least one: http://www.ofcc.com/procedures.htm
Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
Hi Michael: On Feb 1, 2008 6:44 PM, Michael Painter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's at least one: http://www.ofcc.com/procedures.htm Yes, this is the idea. My experience is that fisherman coops, similar to this one for network operators, are contacted during the desk top study DTS phase so that the parties can negotiate the best routes insuring that fisheries aren't disrupted or displaced and that the cable finds an agreed upon and effective route around risks that the fisherman have unique views into. There's also public permitting processes that occur and you want harmony. Groups of people angry at your submarine cable is not a good way to start a business and a submarine cable is a business (see Rod Beck ;-P ) -M
Re: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
On Feb 1, 2008 2:37 PM, Steven M. Bellovin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (either that, or the backhoe operators' union has decided there's better money to be made on water than on land.) Guys named Bubba can get fishing licenses just as easily as backhoe drivers' licenses. One of my customers in the forestry business ran their own cables along their railroad tracks, and every year during hunting season they'd have problems with guys named Bubba shooting at birds on the cables at bridge crossings. Yah. I'm a security guy, and hence suspicious by nature -- our slogan is Paranoia is our Profession -- and I'm getting very concerned. The old saying comes to mind: once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, but the third time is enemy action. My business card often says Technical Marketing, which means I'm supposed to have some wide-grinning explanation about sychronicity of root causes; obviously this is some problem with ship navigation software not using the correct GPS datum, so it's a common-mode operator-interface error that's not the fault of either the telcos or Vendor C's or J's equipment. Funny how Iran's just accidentally fallen off the net, though. I forget the French and Arabic equivalent names for Bubba, but I still think it's him and Murphy. -- Thanks; Bill Note that this isn't my regular email account - It's still experimental so far. And Google probably logs and indexes everything you send it.
Re: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
More productively, there are real concerns with the cable routing around India and Pakistan. Connections across Egypt have geographical constraints that are probably more significant than the political ones, but having most of the connectivity into western India going into Mumbai and not Cochin or Bangalore and only having one drop into Pakistan are risks that ought to be fixed. In large part they're a heritage of telecomms monopolies, and are theoretically fixable, but both countries are at some risk until they do something about it.
Re: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
On Fri, 1 Feb 2008, Steven M. Bellovin wrote: Yah. I'm a security guy, and hence suspicious by nature -- our slogan is Paranoia is our Profession -- and I'm getting very concerned. The old saying comes to mind: once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, but the third time is enemy action. The alternative some common mode failure -- perhaps the storm others have noted. It may just be the normal growing pains networks go through as they reach a certain size and those minor problems become major problems. When the Internet was sparser in the USA, we had similar concindences. 1997: Backhoes in Concert http://www.nanog.org/nanog-tshirts/nanog11.jpg
Re: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
On Feb 2, 2008 4:07 AM, Steven M. Bellovin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yah. I'm a security guy, and hence suspicious by nature -- our slogan is Paranoia is our Profession -- and I'm getting very concerned. The old saying comes to mind: once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, but the third time is enemy action. The alternative some common mode failure -- perhaps the storm others have noted. Quite a few other lists I look at (especially those with a critical infrastructure protection type focus - seem to feel the same as you do. And at least one list has already started the maybe al qaeda is behind this idea running. The fun part is that quite a lot of these cables are in international waters, so it just might turn into a high level multiple UN agency conference, sooner or later with ideas like a bunch of navy or coast guard cutters tasked to patrol on the borders of cable landing areas and head off shipping that wants to anchor, trawlers that want to drag nets across the ocean floor, bubba driving his backhoe ship .. [and that still doesnt keep away sharks that want to sharpen their teeth on undersea cables...] srs
Re: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
: bubba driving his backhoe ship Now that'd make a great NANOG shirt! :-) scott --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Steven M. Bellovin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Scott Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED], nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 07:09:50 +0530 On Feb 2, 2008 4:07 AM, Steven M. Bellovin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yah. I'm a security guy, and hence suspicious by nature -- our slogan is Paranoia is our Profession -- and I'm getting very concerned. The old saying comes to mind: once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, but the third time is enemy action. The alternative some common mode failure -- perhaps the storm others have noted. Quite a few other lists I look at (especially those with a critical infrastructure protection type focus - seem to feel the same as you do. And at least one list has already started the maybe al qaeda is behind this idea running. The fun part is that quite a lot of these cables are in international waters, so it just might turn into a high level multiple UN agency conference, sooner or later with ideas like a bunch of navy or coast guard cutters tasked to patrol on the borders of cable landing areas and head off shipping that wants to anchor, trawlers that want to drag nets across the ocean floor, bubba driving his backhoe ship .. [and that still doesnt keep away sharks that want to sharpen their teeth on undersea cables...] srs
Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
Actually, last year, Scotland Yard claimed Al Qaeda planned on blowing up one of the Telehouse facilities in the UK And, significantly, AQ would benefit from a telecommunications (and other things) disconnect from the West to the Middle East, in both tactical and strategic senses. However, despite the attractive target angle of what got busted, and the proximity of the breaks to Islamic Terrorist problem spots, I don't see a statistical or evidentiary case made that these were anything but the usual occasional strings of normal random problems spiking up at the same time. Another one in the region, or evidence from any of the cuts that it was not an accident, would start yellow lights flashing in my mind, but we're not there yet. -george william herbert [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
On Feb 2, 2008, at 8:56 AM, George William Herbert wrote: However, despite the attractive target angle of what got busted, and the proximity of the breaks to Islamic Terrorist problem spots, I don't see a statistical or evidentiary case made that these were anything but the usual occasional strings of normal random problems spiking up at the same time My instinctive reaction was to recall the Auric Goldfinger quote as smb did - after reflection, however, it's highly unlikely that these issues are the result of a terrorist group action simply because, just like the economically-driven miscreants, the ideologically-driven miscreants have a vested interest in the communications infrastructure remaining intact, as they're so heavily dependent upon it. There are always corner-cases like the Tamil Tiger incident, and people don't always act rationally even in the context of their own perceived (as opposed to actual) self-interest, but I just don't see any terrorist groups nor any governments involved in some kind of cable-cutting plot, as it's diametrically opposed to their commonality of interests (i.e., the terrorist groups want the comms to stay up so that they can make use of them, and the governments want the comms to stay up so that they can monitor the terrorist group comms). --- Roland Dobbins [EMAIL PROTECTED] // 408.527.6376 voice Culture eats strategy for breakfast. -- Ford Motor Company
Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
George William Herbert wrote: And, significantly, AQ would benefit from a telecommunications (and other things) disconnect from the West to the Middle East, in both tactical and strategic senses. Funny, I was thinking the same thing about the Pentagon...
Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 - -- Steven M. Bellovin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hope you're right. As I noted, by profession I'm paranoid. I've even contemplated the uses of deliberate cable cuts; see http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/papers/reroute.pdf for some thoughts from five years ago. But I hope you're right. Oddly enough, the same sort of discussion is going on over on Defense Tech: http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003979.html FYI, - - ferg -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP Desktop 9.6.3 (Build 3017) wj8DBQFHo/TMq1pz9mNUZTMRAgrmAJ4/y+8eY5gCFdtfybKT2HQxJUxqdgCcD9fQ 9cvUgVDPm2L0o4xg+4iN/wc= =bBJC -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Fergie, a.k.a. Paul Ferguson Engineering Architecture for the Internet fergdawg(at)netzero.net ferg's tech blog: http://fergdawg.blogspot.com/
Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
On Fri, Feb 01, 2008 at 10:56:26PM +, Steven M. Bellovin wrote: On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 22:42:02 - Rod Beck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, when you have all these cables running through narrow straits or converging to the same stretch of beach, it does not strike me as at all extraordinary. But they aren't near each other. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/business/worldbusiness/31cable.html says that the first two cuts were in the Mediterranean, near Marseille and Alexandria; the third was in the Persian Gulf, near Dubai (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/technology/AP-Internet-Outages.html). beings as i live in dubai, i can also add that over the last two days there have been some quite strong winds blowing. which i supposed could be a factor in a ship dragging its anchor across a fiber path. -- Jim Mercer[EMAIL PROTECTED]+971 55 410-5633 I'm Prime Minister of Canada, I live here and I'm going to take a leak. - Lester Pearson in 1967, during a meeting between himself and President Lyndon Johnson, whose Secret Service detail had taken over Pearson's cottage retreat. At one point, a Johnson guard asked Pearson, Who are you and where are you going?
