Re: IPv6 on SOHO routers?

[Matthew Moyle-Croft]

Justin M. Streiner wrote:


On Thu, 13 Mar 2008, Matthew Moyle-Croft wrote:

A friend of mine who works for a company that owns another company 
that sells consumer CPE said "Well, this is a volume business. Why 
release a feature that isn't being demanded much yet, when we could 
do it later and sell you ANOTHER CPE to replace the one you just 
bought?".


While it doesn't quality as out-of-the-box v6 support, a Linksys 
WRT54G with a replacement image like Sveasoft Talisman does claim to 
support it.
Yeah - not quite the issue - I've got a Cisco 877 at home and am running 
dual stack natively at home.  But I'm not a typical customer.


But really, we need to start seeing some CPE, even in beta form, so we 
can start working through how a transition to IPv6 might work.
(eg.  customer local networks, SIP for VOIP, stateful firewalls (given 
the anti-NAT-brigade have made it the only solution - don't get me 
started about how low end CPE stateful firewalls suck).


Customers tend to keep their CPE for a few years.   That means customers 
buying now will still have it in 2010.


MMC


I haven't tested it yet on a guinea pig WRT54G, but I'll get around to 
that at some point soon :)


jms


--
Matthew Moyle-Croft - Internode/Agile - Networks
Level 5, 150 Grenfell Street, Adelaide, SA 5000 Australia
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Web: http://www.on.net
Direct: +61-8-8228-2909 Mobile: +61-419-900-366
Reception: +61-8-8228-2999  Fax: +61-8-8235-6909

  "The difficulty lies, not in the new ideas, 
but in escaping from the old ones" - John Maynard Keynes

Re: IPv6 on SOHO routers?

[Justin M. Streiner]

On Thu, 13 Mar 2008, Matthew Moyle-Croft wrote:

A friend of mine who works for a company that owns another company that sells 
consumer CPE said "Well, this is a volume business. Why release a feature 
that isn't being demanded much yet, when we could do it later and sell you 
ANOTHER CPE to replace the one you just bought?".


While it doesn't quality as out-of-the-box v6 support, a Linksys WRT54G 
with a replacement image like Sveasoft Talisman does claim to support it.


I haven't tested it yet on a guinea pig WRT54G, but I'll get around to 
that at some point soon :)


jms

Re: IPv6 on SOHO routers?

[Matthew Moyle-Croft]

The only ADSL one listed "Billion 7402R2" doesn't _actually_ do IPv6 
yet, but it might if they release software for it!
Which would be nice as we sell them to customers and would love to 
magically turn on IPv6 to them one day.


The only IPv6 ADSL router I'm aware of, that I can buy in Australia, is 
the Cisco 857/877 series (which work quite nicely I have to say :-)
(Some earlier Cisco 800 series ADSL routers will work, but aren't 
currently available).


A friend of mine who works for a company that owns another company that 
sells consumer CPE said "Well, this is a volume business. Why release a 
feature that isn't being demanded much yet, when we could do it later 
and sell you ANOTHER CPE to replace the one you just bought?".


Bah.  And people wonder why I'm cynical.

MMC

Frank Bulk - iNAME wrote:

Looks like there's some kind of wiki here, too:

http://www.getipv6.info/index.php/Broadband_CPE

Frank
  

--
Matthew Moyle-Croft - Internode/Agile - Networks
Level 5, 150 Grenfell Street, Adelaide, SA 5000 Australia
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Web: http://www.on.net
Direct: +61-8-8228-2909 Mobile: +61-419-900-366
Reception: +61-8-8228-2999  Fax: +61-8-8235-6909

  "The difficulty lies, not in the new ideas, 
but in escaping from the old ones" - John Maynard Keynes

RE: IPv6 on SOHO routers?

[Frank Bulk - iNAME]

And it looks like the Buffalo WZR-AG300NH claims support, too:
http://www.buffalotech.com/files/products/wzr-ag300nh_DS.pdf

I don't consider Buffalo a tier 1 or 2 SOHO vendor, but they're still on my
top-ten list for SOHO networking vendors.

Regards,

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Frank Bulk - iNAME
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 3:06 PM
To: nanog@merit.edu
Subject: IPv6 on SOHO routers?


Slightly off-topic, but tangentially related that I'll dare to ask.

I'm attending an "Emerging Communications" course where the instructor
stated that there are SOHO routers that natively support IPv6, pointing to
Asia specifically.

Do Linksys, D-Link, Netgear, etc. have such software for the Asian markets?

Furthermore, he stated that networking equipment companies like Cisco will
be moving away from IPv4 in 5 years or so.  This is the first time I've
heard this posited -- I had a hard believing that, but he claims it with
some authority.  Anyone hear anything like this?  My own opinion is that
we'll see dual-stack for at least a decade or two to come.

Frank

RE: IPv6 on SOHO routers?

[Frank Bulk - iNAME]

Looks like there's some kind of wiki here, too:

http://www.getipv6.info/index.php/Broadband_CPE

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Frank Bulk - iNAME
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 3:06 PM
To: nanog@merit.edu
Subject: IPv6 on SOHO routers?


Slightly off-topic, but tangentially related that I'll dare to ask.

I'm attending an "Emerging Communications" course where the instructor
stated that there are SOHO routers that natively support IPv6, pointing to
Asia specifically.

Do Linksys, D-Link, Netgear, etc. have such software for the Asian markets?

Furthermore, he stated that networking equipment companies like Cisco will
be moving away from IPv4 in 5 years or so.  This is the first time I've
heard this posited -- I had a hard believing that, but he claims it with
some authority.  Anyone hear anything like this?  My own opinion is that
we'll see dual-stack for at least a decade or two to come.

Frank

RE: IPv6 on SOHO routers?

[Frank Bulk - iNAME]

I must be blind, but I don't recognize any brands there that support IPv6
(besides the Apple Airport).  I see the Linksys WRT54G, but I don't know
where they find the validation for IPv6 support, unless they mean DD-WRT.

Based on all the responses I received on and off list, it appears, that as
far as name brands recognized in the U.S., only Apple makes a SOHO router
that support IPv6.

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 3:56 PM
To: nanog@merit.edu
Subject: Re: IPv6 on SOHO routers?


Yes, there are many. Take a look at www.ipv6-to-standard.org

Regards,
Jordi




> De: Frank Bulk - iNAME <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Responder a: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Fecha: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 15:06:24 -0500
> Para: 
> Asunto: IPv6 on SOHO routers?
>
>
> Slightly off-topic, but tangentially related that I'll dare to ask.
>
> I'm attending an "Emerging Communications" course where the instructor
> stated that there are SOHO routers that natively support IPv6, pointing to
> Asia specifically.
>
> Do Linksys, D-Link, Netgear, etc. have such software for the Asian
markets?
>
> Furthermore, he stated that networking equipment companies like Cisco will
> be moving away from IPv4 in 5 years or so.  This is the first time I've
> heard this posited -- I had a hard believing that, but he claims it with
> some authority.  Anyone hear anything like this?  My own opinion is that
> we'll see dual-stack for at least a decade or two to come.
>
> Frank
>




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RE: Customer-facing ACLs

[Frank Bulk - iNAME]

Sorry, I should have been more clear.  I added them a few months after I
came on board.  The ports that are blocked are either Window's SMB/RPC ports
or the ones that (a long time ago) were used by worms.  Correct, no research
into traffic or contact with customers.  Although some may argue that
sharing one's files with their neighbor using Window's File and Print
sharing is a valid service, it's generally accepted that that residential
subscribers have no legitimate need to be communicating with those ports on
the internet and they are 100 times to 1 more likely to carry malicious
traffic than not.  And as our history has shown, there's been close to zero
issues.  Yes, perhaps customers just didn't bother to call in to complain or
that call wasn't escalated to me, but I think I could communicate a pretty
convincing argument if required.

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Scott Weeks
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 6:39 PM
To: nanog@merit.edu
Subject: RE: Customer-facing ACLs



--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

We have a two-dozen line long ACL applied to our CMTS and BRAS blocking
Windows and "virus" ports and have never had a complaint or a problem.  We
do have a more sophisticated residential or large-biz customers ask, but


I'd like to ask the same question of you that I just did to Chris.  How'd
you implement that or has it been there since the network was new?


-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  
From: "Frank Bulk - iNAME" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Those ACLs were added when I came on board.  Again, only one complaint in 3+
years.


Do you mean they were already there when you arrived, or do you mean you
just put in ACLs after arriving?  No research into traffic?  No contact to
customers?  No elaborating to the less technical folks in the company about
what was going to happen?  etc...

We have over 100k DSL folks and most're DHCP.  I'd be afraid to do that
without research into the traffic via "permit TCP NNN log" type ACLs and
other methods.

I believe I will take Sean D's sugestion and read MAAWG's docs.  Makes me
wonder, though, if we took over the Hawaii part of VZ's network and it was
completely open, does that mean the rest of their network is similarly open?

scott

Re: IPv6 on SOHO routers?

[Mark Newton]

On 13/03/2008, at 11:30 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 15:06:24 CDT, Frank Bulk - iNAME said:

Slightly off-topic, but tangentially related that I'll dare to ask.

I'm attending an "Emerging Communications" course where the  
instructor
stated that there are SOHO routers that natively support IPv6,  
pointing to

Asia specifically.


Well, of *course* you're more likely to find such SOHO routers in  
markets where
a SOHO router owner might actually be able to use the feature.  But  
in most
parts of the US, IPv6 support in a SOHO router is right up there  
with GOSIP

compliance as far as actual usefulness goes...


Yup.  If you look at the devices claimed to be IPv6 CPE in Asian
markets, they're inevitably Ethernet-only, to be used on networks
where the customer is provided with an Ethernet jack in their home
or apartment complex.

Those of us who use ADSL or (heaven forbid) Cable are kinda out of luck.
I haven't yet found ADSL2+ CPE that does IPv6 over PPPoE or PPPoA out
of the box.

(Billion in Taiwan has a device which they've stamped an "IPv6 Ready"
sticker onto, but the IPv6 version of the software hasn't left the
confines of their lab yet)

As far as I've been able to determine, IPv6 SOHO CPE is largely
vaporware right now.  And lets not even get started on residential
grade CPE, that doesn't even appear to be on most vendors' radar
_at all_.  If anything useful is going to happen in this space,
my guess is that it'll be with custom Linux firmware running on
a LinkSys blob with no vendor support.


  - mark


--
Mark Newton   Email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 (W)
Network Engineer  Email:   
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  (H)

Internode Systems Pty Ltd Desk:   +61-8-82282999
"Network Man" - Anagram of "Mark Newton"  Mobile: +61-416-202-223

Re: IPv6 on SOHO routers?

[Valdis . Kletnieks]

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 15:06:24 CDT, Frank Bulk - iNAME said:
> Slightly off-topic, but tangentially related that I'll dare to ask.
> 
> I'm attending an "Emerging Communications" course where the instructor
> stated that there are SOHO routers that natively support IPv6, pointing to
> Asia specifically.

Well, of *course* you're more likely to find such SOHO routers in markets where
a SOHO router owner might actually be able to use the feature.  But in most
parts of the US, IPv6 support in a SOHO router is right up there with GOSIP
compliance as far as actual usefulness goes...



pgpaykU0TZGy0.pgp
Description: PGP signature

RE: Customer-facing ACLs

[Scott Weeks]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

We have a two-dozen line long ACL applied to our CMTS and BRAS blocking
Windows and "virus" ports and have never had a complaint or a problem.  We
do have a more sophisticated residential or large-biz customers ask, but


I'd like to ask the same question of you that I just did to Chris.  How'd
you implement that or has it been there since the network was new?


-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  
From: "Frank Bulk - iNAME" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Those ACLs were added when I came on board.  Again, only one complaint in 3+
years.


Do you mean they were already there when you arrived, or do you mean you just 
put in ACLs after arriving?  No research into traffic?  No contact to 
customers?  No elaborating to the less technical folks in the company about 
what was going to happen?  etc...

We have over 100k DSL folks and most're DHCP.  I'd be afraid to do that without 
research into the traffic via "permit TCP NNN log" type ACLs and other methods. 
 

I believe I will take Sean D's sugestion and read MAAWG's docs.  Makes me 
wonder, though, if we took over the Hawaii part of VZ's network and it was 
completely open, does that mean the rest of their network is similarly open?

scott  

RE: IPv6 on SOHO routers?

[Mikael Abrahamsson]

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008, John Lee wrote:

What I would like to see today is SOHO routers that do not interfere 
with 6 over 4 transport since my ISP does not offer home DSL termination 
of v6. Taking the silicon in a SOHO and adding 5 to 10 $ US in cost for 
v6 and multiple that by 5 to get a retail price of those features. Then 
offset that with the decrease in silicon size when you add both together 
with smaller size lines and transistors on the chips, I would project 
SOHO prices of 250 - 350 $ US to start with for v4 & v6 and dropping 
from there.


OpenWRT which actually supports IPv6 (by virtue of being linux based) can 
be run on very cheap devices (as most smaller home NAT-gateways are 
CPU based, no biggie), I suspect IPv6 on most of these is only a matter of 
someone actually putting it in their RFQ and be willing to pay a few $ 
extra per unit when buying the normal large telco volumes.


Running code is out there, it's just a matter of getting it into the 
devices.


The smaller SOHO routers that cisco has (800 and 1800 series) are quite 
ready for this, 12.4T even has support for DHCPv6 prefix delegation on the 
878 for instance (it was the only one I checked in the software advisor).


--
Mikael Abrahamssonemail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: IPv6 on SOHO routers?

[John Lee]

If history is any guide the last Cisco boxes I worked on supported various 
flavors of SDLC and pre-SNA IBM comm, DECnet and DECnet LAT, IPX, Burroughs, 
poll select and the only protocol they do not still support is CorvisNet on 
twisted pair. Some of these protocols have not seen the light of day since when?
 
What is a Good CCIE test without arcane SDLC, HDLC and DECnet protocol 
questions.
 
Most SOHO routers use standard or proprietary silicon to do the IP stack or IP 
route assist and when the silicon is available for dual stack in quantity 
10,000 units or more at a reasonable price the SOHO routers will support both.
 
IMHO before Linksys was owned by Cisco, I liked Netgear because there code was 
from Bay networks and had better routing. Finally, when I bought the expensive 
$ 150.00 routers with integral VPN support that was neat.
 
What I would like to see today is SOHO routers that do not interfere with 6 
over 4 transport since my ISP does not offer home DSL termination of v6. Taking 
the silicon in a SOHO and adding 5 to 10 $ US in cost for v6 and multiple that 
by 5 to get a retail price of those features. Then offset that with the 
decrease in silicon size when you add both together with smaller size lines and 
transistors on the chips, I would project SOHO prices of 250 - 350 $ US to 
start with for v4 & v6 and dropping from there.
 
John (ISDN) Lee



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Frank Bulk - iNAME
Sent: Wed 3/12/2008 4:06 PM
To: nanog@merit.edu
Subject: IPv6 on SOHO routers?




Slightly off-topic, but tangentially related that I'll dare to ask.

I'm attending an "Emerging Communications" course where the instructor
stated that there are SOHO routers that natively support IPv6, pointing to
Asia specifically.

Do Linksys, D-Link, Netgear, etc. have such software for the Asian markets?

Furthermore, he stated that networking equipment companies like Cisco will
be moving away from IPv4 in 5 years or so.  This is the first time I've
heard this posited -- I had a hard believing that, but he claims it with
some authority.  Anyone hear anything like this?  My own opinion is that
we'll see dual-stack for at least a decade or two to come.

Frank

Re: IPv6 on SOHO routers?

[GIULIANO (UOL)]

Frank,

Juniper Networks Does support IPv6 in J-Series Routers and SSG Firewalls:


http://www.juniper.net/products_and_services/j_series_services_routers/

http://www.juniper.net/products_and_services/ex_series/index.html

http://www.juniper.net/products_and_services/firewall_slash_ipsec_vpn/index.html

http://www.juniper.net/federal/IPv6/


SSG-5 and SSG-20 does support it after Screenos 6.1 ... for small office 
business.



Other vendor like Fortinet is supporting IPv6 in SOHO equipment too.


Att,


Giuliano




Slightly off-topic, but tangentially related that I'll dare to ask.

I'm attending an "Emerging Communications" course where the instructor
stated that there are SOHO routers that natively support IPv6, pointing to
Asia specifically.

Do Linksys, D-Link, Netgear, etc. have such software for the Asian markets?

Furthermore, he stated that networking equipment companies like Cisco will
be moving away from IPv4 in 5 years or so.  This is the first time I've
heard this posited -- I had a hard believing that, but he claims it with
some authority.  Anyone hear anything like this?  My own opinion is that
we'll see dual-stack for at least a decade or two to come.

Frank


__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 2942 (20080312) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

Re: IPv6 on SOHO routers?

[Suresh Ramasubramanian]

I seem to remember something about Earthlink rolling out v6 enabled
wifi routers to its customers (linksys with a hacked up firmware
that'd create a v6 tunnel between the cpe and an elnk tunnelbroker) ..
what happened to that interesting little product?  Killed off and the
few remaining users grandfathered?

srs

On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 1:36 AM, Frank Bulk - iNAME <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  Slightly off-topic, but tangentially related that I'll dare to ask.
>
>  I'm attending an "Emerging Communications" course where the instructor
>  stated that there are SOHO routers that natively support IPv6, pointing to
>  Asia specifically.
>

Re: IPv6 on SOHO routers?

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ]

Yes, there are many. Take a look at www.ipv6-to-standard.org

Regards,
Jordi




> De: Frank Bulk - iNAME <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Responder a: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Fecha: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 15:06:24 -0500
> Para: 
> Asunto: IPv6 on SOHO routers?
> 
> 
> Slightly off-topic, but tangentially related that I'll dare to ask.
> 
> I'm attending an "Emerging Communications" course where the instructor
> stated that there are SOHO routers that natively support IPv6, pointing to
> Asia specifically.
> 
> Do Linksys, D-Link, Netgear, etc. have such software for the Asian markets?
> 
> Furthermore, he stated that networking equipment companies like Cisco will
> be moving away from IPv4 in 5 years or so.  This is the first time I've
> heard this posited -- I had a hard believing that, but he claims it with
> some authority.  Anyone hear anything like this?  My own opinion is that
> we'll see dual-stack for at least a decade or two to come.
> 
> Frank
> 




**
The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org

Bye 6Bone. Hi, IPv6 !
http://www.ipv6day.org

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or 
confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the 
individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that 
any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this 
information, including attached files, is prohibited.

Re: IPv6 on SOHO routers?

[David Conrad]

On Mar 12, 2008, at 1:06 PM, Frank Bulk - iNAME wrote:

Slightly off-topic, but tangentially related that I'll dare to ask.

I'm attending an "Emerging Communications" course where the instructor
stated that there are SOHO routers that natively support IPv6,





There are a couple of other boxes I noticed recently at Fry's (in the  
SF Bay Area) that claimed IPv6 support on the box, but I have no idea  
how real those claims are.


Furthermore, he stated that networking equipment companies like  
Cisco will
be moving away from IPv4 in 5 years or so.  This is the first time  
I've
heard this posited -- I had a hard believing that, but he claims it  
with
some authority.  Anyone hear anything like this?  My own opinion is  
that

we'll see dual-stack for at least a decade or two to come.


I suspect you should back away slowly from anyone who suggests IPv4 is  
going to go away within 5 years.


Regards,
-drc

Re: IPv6 on SOHO routers?

[Leo Bicknell]

In a message written on Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 03:06:24PM -0500, Frank Bulk - 
iNAME wrote:
> Furthermore, he stated that networking equipment companies like Cisco will
> be moving away from IPv4 in 5 years or so.  This is the first time I've
> heard this posited -- I had a hard believing that, but he claims it with
> some authority.  Anyone hear anything like this?  My own opinion is that
> we'll see dual-stack for at least a decade or two to come.

ISP's are very good at one thing, driving out unnecessary cost.
Running dual stack increases cost.  While I'm not sure about the 5
year part, I'm sure ISP's will move to disable IPv4 support as soon
as the market will let them as a cost saving measure.  Runing for
"decades" dual stacked does not make a lot of economic sense for
all involved.

-- 
   Leo Bicknell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - CCIE 3440
PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/


pgpCewdFdfeY9.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: IPv6 on SOHO routers?

[Joe Abley]

On 12-Mar-2008, at 16:06, Frank Bulk - iNAME wrote:


Slightly off-topic, but tangentially related that I'll dare to ask.

I'm attending an "Emerging Communications" course where the instructor
stated that there are SOHO routers that natively support IPv6,  
pointing to

Asia specifically.

Do Linksys, D-Link, Netgear, etc. have such software for the Asian  
markets?


I seem to think I've seen SOHO routers (or "gateways" I suppose,  
assuming that these boxes are rarely simply routers) on display at  
beer'n'gear-type venues at APRICOT meetings, going back several years.  
The glossy pamphlets have long since been discarded, so I can't tell  
you names of vendors.


More mainstream for this market, Apple's airport extreme "SOHO router"  
does IPv6.


  http://www.apple.com/airportextreme/specs.html

I have not had the time to figure out what "does IPv6" means, exactly  
(DHCPv6? IPv6 DNS resolver?) but I seem to think it will provide route  
advertisements and route out either using 6to4 or a manually- 
configured tunnel.



Joe

Re: IPv6 on SOHO routers?

[Joel Jaeggli]

Frank Bulk - iNAME wrote:

Slightly off-topic, but tangentially related that I'll dare to ask.

I'm attending an "Emerging Communications" course where the instructor
stated that there are SOHO routers that natively support IPv6, pointing to
Asia specifically.

Do Linksys, D-Link, Netgear, etc. have such software for the Asian markets?


Get yourself a copy of ipv6style magazine.

http://www.ipv6style.jp

The answer is yes.


Furthermore, he stated that networking equipment companies like Cisco will
be moving away from IPv4 in 5 years or so.  This is the first time I've
heard this posited -- I had a hard believing that, but he claims it with
some authority.  Anyone hear anything like this?  My own opinion is that
we'll see dual-stack for at least a decade or two to come.


That's to say, if you're projecting a particular tipping point in ipv4 
vs ipv6 usability then sure that's plausible. there are plenty of 
divergent opinions on the subject.



Frank

IPv6 on SOHO routers?

[Frank Bulk - iNAME]

Slightly off-topic, but tangentially related that I'll dare to ask.

I'm attending an "Emerging Communications" course where the instructor
stated that there are SOHO routers that natively support IPv6, pointing to
Asia specifically.

Do Linksys, D-Link, Netgear, etc. have such software for the Asian markets?

Furthermore, he stated that networking equipment companies like Cisco will
be moving away from IPv4 in 5 years or so.  This is the first time I've
heard this posited -- I had a hard believing that, but he claims it with
some authority.  Anyone hear anything like this?  My own opinion is that
we'll see dual-stack for at least a decade or two to come.

Frank