Re: /24 blocking by ISPs - Re: Problems sending mail to yahoo?
On 4/11/08, Raymond L. Corbin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's not unusual to do /24 blocks, however Yahoo claims they do not keep any logs as to what causes the /24 block. If they kept logs and were able to tell us which IP address in the /24 sent abuse to their network we would then be able to investigate it. Their stance of 'it's coming from your network you should know' isn't really helpful in solving the problem. When an IP is blocked a lot of ISP's can tell you why. I would think when they block a /24 they would atleast be able to decipher who was sending the abuse to their network to cause the block and not simply say 'Were sorry our anti-spam measures do not conform with your business practices'. Logging into every server using a /24 is looking for needle in a haystack. *heh* And yet just last year, Yahoo was loudly dennounced for keeping logs that allowed the Chinese government to imprison political dissidents. Talk about damned if you do, damned if don't... I guess logs should only be kept as long as they can only be used for good, and not evil? Matt -Ray
Re: /24 blocking by ISPs - Re: Problems sending mail to yahoo?
On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 09:36:43AM -0700, Matthew Petach wrote: *heh* And yet just last year, Yahoo was loudly dennounced for keeping logs that allowed the Chinese government to imprison political dissidents. Talk about damned if you do, damned if don't... But those are very different kinds of logs -- with personally identifiable information. I see a sharp difference between those and logs which record (let's say) SMTP abuse incidents/attempts by originating IP address. ---Rsk
RE: Problems sending mail to yahoo?
Sounds like the obvious thing to tell customers complaining about their e-mail not getting to Yahoo! is to tell them that Yahoo! doesn't want it. Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edward B. DREGER Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 2:44 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Problems sending mail to yahoo? JA Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:22:11 -0400 JA From: Joe Abley JA To return to the topic at hand, you may already have outsourced the JA coordination of your boycott to Yahoo!, too! They're already not JA accepting your mail. There's no need to stop sending it! :-) Except for queue management. I just got off the phone with one client who requested precisely: Can you just have [the servers] refuse to send mail to Yahoo? Eddy -- Everquick Internet - http://www.everquick.net/ A division of Brotsman Dreger, Inc. - http://www.brotsman.com/ Bandwidth, consulting, e-commerce, hosting, and network building Phone: +1 785 865 5885 Lawrence and [inter]national Phone: +1 316 794 8922 Wichita DO NOT send mail to the following addresses: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -*- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -*- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sending mail to spambait addresses is a great way to get blocked. Ditto for broken OOO autoresponders and foolish AV software backscatter.
RE: Problems sending mail to yahoo?
dear coo/ceo/whomever: i want approval to send the five folk who go to nanog, and the five folk who go to maawg, and the five folk who go to first to *all* go to the new frobnitz joint conference. think that'll fly? Why not? We already solved that problem for the five folk who go to the ARIN meetings. --Michael Dillon P.S. Thinking out of the box would suggest that the person funding these conference trips should force people to rotate the conferences that they go to. Want to get approval to go to another NANOG? Then you have to attend the next MAAWG and the next FIRST conference before you can attend NANOG again. It is now standard enterprise practice to rotate their best managers through various different functions of the company. Why don't we do this with some of the technical management functions as well?
Re: Yahoo Mail Update
On 4/10/08, chuck goolsbee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: An anonymous source at Yahoo told me that they have pushed a config update sometime today out to their servers to help with these deferral issues. Please don't ask me to play proxy on this one of any other issues you may have, but take a look at your queues and they should be getting better. - Jared Thanks for the update Jared. I can understand your request to not be used as a proxy, but it exposes the reason why Yahoo is thought to be clueless: They are completely opaque. They can not exist in this community without having some visibity and interaction on an operational level. Yahoo should have a look at how things are done at AOL. While the feedback loop from the *users* at AOL is mostly a source of entertainment, dealing with the postmaster staff at AOL is a benchmark in how it should be done. *heh* Well, depending upon how the battle turns out, Yahoo is likely to go the way of whomever its new partner will be--which will either be more like AOL, or more like Hotmail. Sounds like there's already some amount of preference at least among this group as to which way they'd prefer to see the battle go. ^_^; Matt Proxy that message over and perhaps this issue of Yahoo's perennially broken mail causing the rest of us headaches will go away. It seems to come up here on nanog and over on the mailop list every few weeks. --chuck
Re: Problems sending mail to yahoo?
Joe Greco wrote: So it's a vast sea of security by obscurity and standards be damned. It's a real and serious failure of the IETF et al. ... Having nearly given up in disgust on trying to devise workable anti-spam solutions that would reliably deliver requested/desired mail to my own mailbox, I came to the realization that the real problem with the e-mail system is so fundamental that there's no trivial way to save it. Sounds like the party line inside Yahoo, but there are plenty of ISPs that do a really good job of combating spam. They do it with standard tools like RBLs, Spamassassin, OCR, ClamAV and without ineffective diversions like SPF or DKIM. Add a few local customizations (I know, this is the time consuming part), IP-layer IDS, stir carefully and voila, spam to real mail ratios well below 1 to 100. All without big junk folders, with very rare false positives, and little or no effort on the part of end-users. The problem is that it is an art, not well documented (without reading 5 or 6 sendmail/postfix and anti-spam mailing lists for a several years), is not taught in school (unlike systems and network administration), and rarely gets measured with decent metrics. Not that spam really has much to do with network operations, well, except perhaps for those pesky Netcool/Openview/Nagios alerts... Roger Marquis
