A More Enlightened Approach to P2P From 'Old Europe'
I recommend Bill St. Arnaud's daily blog: [From Dewayne Hendricks list--BSA] [Note: This item comes from friend Charles Brown. DLH] European Research Project to Shape Next Generation Internet TV http://www.p2p-next.org/ Brussels, 19 February 2008 - P2P-Next, a pan-European conglomerate of 21 industrial partners, media content providers and research institutions, has received a 14 million grant from the European Union. The grant will enable the conglomerate to carry out a research project aiming to identify the potential uses of peer-to-peer (P2P) technology for Internet Television of the future. The partners, including the BBC, Delft University of Technology, the European Broadcasting Union, Lancaster University, Markenfilm, Pioneer and VTT Technical Research Centre of Finland, intend to develop a Europe-wide next-generation internet television distribution system, based on P2P and social interaction. P2P-Next statement: The P2P-Next project will run over four years, and plans to conduct a large-scale technical trial of new media applications running on a wide range of consumer devices. If successful, this ambitious project could create a platform that would enable audiences to stream and interact with live content via a PC or set top box. In addition, it is our intention to allow audiences to build communities around their favourite content via a fully personalized system. This technology could potentially be built into VOD services in the future and plans are underway to test the system for broadcasting the 2008 Eurovision Song Contest live online. We will have an open approach towards sharing results. All core software technology will be available as open source, enabling new business models. P2P-Next will also address a number of outstanding challenges related to content delivery over the internet, including technical, legal, regulatory, security, business and commercial issues. = Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein.
RE: Submarine Cable Cuts Acts of Sabatoge?
Well, I guess the experts need an education. Cable cuts do occur in deep sea. Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829.
RE: What is being 'ON NET' good for these days?
Gentlemen, It's not a question of being on-net or not. It is question of given scarce network resources, where would you prefer to use them? My suspicion is that your vendors think they can generate a higher return by using those resources to serve many customers as opposed to dedicate them to just one. IP can often a higher return because of statistical multiplexing. Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829.
RE: What is being 'ON NET' good for these days?
Lots of IP providers make the conscious decision not to sell private line. At locations that are connected to their backbone via fibre. And it is quite common in less important markets. Best, Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209.
RE: Area Social Activity
I am suggesting a Certified Drinkers Event in the hotel bar Sunday evening. Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Owen DeLong Sent: Thu 2/14/2008 3:36 PM To: North American Network Operators Group Subject: Area Social Activity Sorry for the short notice. For anyone coming to NANOG early who is a certified SCUBA DIver, I'll be diving in Monterey (about 1 hour drive from San Jose) Saturday and Sunday. If you're interested in joining me, send an email off-list. Owen DeLong Open Water SCUBA Instructor (PADI)
RE: Area Social Activity
And to celebrate my first TransAtlantic IRU, I will buy the first ten people a drink. The commission is funding it. Regards, Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: Bill Nash [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thu 2/14/2008 4:29 PM To: Rod Beck Cc: North American Network Operators Group Subject: RE: Area Social Activity Given that the last reported water temperature in Monterey was 52.9F, I think there will be more drinkers than divers. - billn On Thu, 14 Feb 2008, Rod Beck wrote: I am suggesting a Certified Drinkers Event in the hotel bar Sunday evening. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Owen DeLong Sent: Thu 2/14/2008 3:36 PM To: North American Network Operators Group Subject: Area Social Activity Sorry for the short notice. For anyone coming to NANOG early who is a certified SCUBA DIver, I'll be diving in Monterey (about 1 hour drive from San Jose) Saturday and Sunday. If you're interested in joining me, send an email off-list. Owen DeLong Open Water SCUBA Instructor (PADI)
RE: Area Social Activity
Well, after I bought the apartment on the Champs-Élysées there wasn't much left ... But there are no property taxes in France. :) Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: Alex Rubenstein [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thu 2/14/2008 4:41 PM To: Rod Beck; Bill Nash Cc: North American Network Operators Group Subject: RE: Area Social Activity That's all they paid? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rod Beck Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 11:31 AM To: Bill Nash Cc: North American Network Operators Group Subject: RE: Area Social Activity And to celebrate my first TransAtlantic IRU, I will buy the first ten people a drink. The commission is funding it.
RE: Abandoned ship anchor found at FALCON cable cut
Doesn't sound like sabotage to me. In fact, it sounds like bad luck. Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Sean Donelan Sent: Thu 2/7/2008 4:48 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Abandoned ship anchor found at FALCON cable cut The repair ship arrived on site between UAE and Oman, recovered the an end of the cable for splicing. It also found a 5-6 tonnes ship anchor abandoned near the cable cut. http://www.flagtelecom.com/index.cfm?channel=4328NewsID=27493
RE: Fourth cable damaged in Middle Eest (Qatar to UAE)
There is an important point to make here. The word 'cut' is misleading as it suggests that someone cut it. The correct terminology is 'non-operational cable'. Shakespeare faces no competition from my industry ... Most cable failures occur when deep ocean currents rub the cable against rocks and erode the cladding until water hits the copper that carries power through the cable to the undersea repeaters. At that point the individual fibers have little protection and it is not long before those fibers are cut or sufficiently bent by pounding against a rocky surface to degrade the signal to the point where it is useless. In other words, the very terminology we use tends to suggest misleading that there had to be an agent - a doer. And as noted, all it really takes is bending a fiber sufficiently to knock it out. Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein.
RE: [admin] Re: Fourth cable damaged in Middle Eest (Qatar to UAE)
I have not looked at a map. My guess is that most of these cables are linear - point-to-point. Obviously a more robust architecture is a ring. All TransAtlantic cables are rings, but can you justify the economic cost of a ring architecture to serve relatively small countries? Hmm ... Despite the needless worrying about terrorism, the single most important factor is how well a cable is buried. Deeper is better and more expensive. To bury a cable, you dig a deep trench, drop the cable in it, and let Nature cover it. Nature is very good at doing so ... Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com
RE: Fourth cable damaged in Middle Eest (Qatar to UAE)
It's obviously the KGB, which wants the world to be dependent on Russia for oil All Russians please report to their nearest FBI office for execution and subsequent interrogation ... Regards, Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com
RE: Fourth cable damaged in Middle Eest (Qatar to UAE)
Generally speaking, it is the undersea cable maintence folks who benefit since they do the repairs. Alcatel, Global Marine, Tyco Submarine, to name a few. It is common practice to use the same company that laid the cable, but it is not an obligation. Contracts are structured as an annual charge with a per incident fee. Right now these charges are going up as fuel costs rise. Regards, Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com
RE: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
Gentlemen,
This is my last comment on this subject.
Paranoia is not a virtue. And security establishments are notorious for
exaggerating threats (Soviet Union's economy and hence ability to wage war was
half of what the CIA estimated). They are interest groups just like the rest of
us ... They pursue their self interest as General Eisenhower noted about a
certain's military establishment.
:)
If you know the undersea cable industry, you know that several cables can be
down at the same time without malice playing a role...
Last year both undersea cables into Pakistan were severed. The two cables were
laid within several feet of each other along a stretch of shallow water.
When a ship sank, it crushed both cables.
In December of 2006, three Irish sea cables went dead. One was cut in twenty
feet of water. One was cut on land and a third damaged in the middle of the
Irish sea.
It happens all the time.
Terrorists are clearly looking for more high profile events than disrupting
unmanned undersea cable systems. It doesn't make for great television shots ...
It is really to get shots of an undersea severed cable ...
Have a good weekend.
Regards,
Roderick S. Beck
Director of European Sales
Hibernia Atlantic
1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris
http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com
Wireless: 1-212-444-8829.
Landline: 33-1-4346-3209.
French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97.
AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert
Einstein.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Robert Bonomi
Sent: Sat 2/2/2008 7:20 PM
To: nanog@merit.edu
Subject: Re: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea
cable disruption
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 14:21:00 -0800
From: Scott Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt
undersea cable disruption
On Feb 1, 2008 6:37 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/third-undersea-cable-reportedly-cut/story.aspx?guid={1AAB2A79-E983-4E0E-BC39-68A120DC16D9}
We had another cut today between Dubai and Muscat three hours back.
The cable was about 80G capacity, it had telephone, Internet data,
everything, one Flag official, who declined to be named, told Zawya
Dow Jones.
The cable, known as Falcon, delivers services to countries in the
Mediterranean and Gulf region, he added.
this (3 undersea cables in about a week, serving the same geographic
area, with two of the cuts happening on the same day!) is leaving the
realm of improbability and approaching the realm of conspiracy ...
Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence
comes to mind.
RE: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Martin Hannigan Sent: Fri 2/1/2008 5:01 PM To: Steven M. Bellovin Cc: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption On Feb 1, 2008 11:43 AM, Steven M. Bellovin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There's an interesting article at http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/technology/AP-Internet-Outages-Cables.html on cable chokepoints. NEW YORK (AP) -- The lines that tie the globe together by carrying phone calls and Internet traffic are just two-thirds of an inch thick where they lie on the ocean floor. This article is somewhat misleading. Semantics, but it set the tone of the article for me and probably most of the public. The cables are able to have their physical characteristics changed by the ability to splice joints into the cable and connect two physically disparate ends to serve specific purposes related bottom geologies, depth, and other dangers. Different cable types are deployed to mitigate different risks such as fishing, quakes, slides, etc. The lightweight cable may be thinner, but is used in less risky settings like massive depths. When you get to something like heavy weight armored on the edge of a fishing ground or winding through a treacherous bottom geology, your're talking much larger diameters and much more weight, as Rod Beck had mentioned previously. There are many variables that go into route selection and cabling which impact type. Cost is one. -M Weight is a bigger issue than most people realize. In order to lift a cable out of the water and onto the deck of a Global Marine or Tyco Submarine ship, it has be cut and the two segments lifted out of the water, spliced, and then a 'joint' is placed at the splice point. The weight of even a thin cable is too great to be lifted without being cut in two.
RE: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
Of course, we all know the Mossad (Israeli secret services) and CIA did it as part of the global conspiracy against the Middle East and Third World ... In recent years I have restrained myself, but from time to time the 'old Rod Beck' manages to evade the supervision of the Super Ego (presumably you know your Freudian psychology). But seriously, double failures occur all the time. TAT-14 went dark for over 24 hours on December 28, 2003 when one cable was damaged and the switch of traffic to the other cable caused the second cable to experience a repeater failure. Probability dictates that the improbable will happen given enough time. The improbable is unlikely, not impossible. Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: Ahmed Maged (amaged) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Fri 2/1/2008 6:05 PM To: Steven M. Bellovin; Martin Hannigan Cc: Rod Beck; Hank Nussbacher; Sean Donelan; nanog@merit.edu Subject: RE: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption Doesn't look normal to me that both cables were cut 'accidently' -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven M. Bellovin Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:49 PM To: Martin Hannigan Cc: Rod Beck; Hank Nussbacher; Sean Donelan; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption Today's NY Times reports that the problem was caused by two near-simultaneous cable failures: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/business/worldbusiness/31cable.html
RE: Another cablecut - sri lanka to suez Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
Not at all, there have been cables in the water since 1858 (first TransAtlantic cable - telegraph). Right now there are 80 major cables out there. Give yourself 170 years of undersea cables and calculate the odds. :) Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein.
RE: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
Well, when you have all these cables running through narrow straits or converging to the same stretch of beach, it does not strike me as at all extraordinary. An important factor is cooperation. Is there cooperation between the fiber optic guys and fishing associations to minimize hits? I would wager there is close to zero. Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Martin Hannigan Sent: Fri 2/1/2008 10:33 PM To: Ahmed Maged (amaged) Cc: Steven M. Bellovin; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption On Feb 1, 2008 2:25 PM, Ahmed Maged (amaged) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does look normal to me is far from a global conspiracy theory. Thank you for the translation but I think you got it wrong. I agree, there should be a sanity check as I understand that they are within close proximity of each other. Two ships slipping anchors and causing cable breaks in the same area is odd, but if there's a storm in the area, that would not be that much of a surprise. There should be some logic to the madness. I think that the moral of the story is that more operators should try to better understand what diversity means beyond the metro. The challenge is getting the information. The Teleography series of internet/sub maps are interesting. They don't demonstrate diversity though, since they show figurative routing. Those nice and straight lines are a pipe dream. -M -M
RE: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
Hi Steve, TransAtlantic cables average three repairs a year. That's the industry average. So given 7 high capacity cable systems, that's 21 repairs a year. Now, not all damaged cables go out of service. In fact, most stay in service until the repair begins. But the public rarely hears about a TransAtlantic cable going dark. Yet it does happen quite regularly in the business. Why? Because there are seven very high capacity (multi-terabit) systems to route traffic across! There is no need to announce to the public that a cable been cut. That is not the case in the Midterranean or the Persian Gulf. You have only a few systems (relatively low capacity) serving a huge population. In fact, I suspect Flag is probably the sole provider for many of these countries. So yes, when the only guy in town falls down, it's going to be noticed. That's the real answer. Regards, Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein.
RE: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
Telecommunication facilities have rarely been targets of terrorism. There is only one known case - the Tamil Tigers destroyed a central office in Sri Lanka some years back. My guess is that terrorists want to kill people, not destroy optical muxes, Class 5 switches, and the like. And the undersea cable maps are not deliberately vague. There are very accurate maps on the Web so that fishing boats can avoid the cables, which every couple years cause a small fishing to capsize. Boats are the prinicipal threat. The next important threat is oceanic cross currents that erode the plastic cladding that protects the fiber and the copper rod that carries the power. Regards, Roderick.
RE: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
http://www.kisca.org.uk/Web_SWApproaches.pdf -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Martin Hannigan Sent: Thu 1/31/2008 12:48 PM To: Hank Nussbacher Cc: Sean Donelan; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption On Jan 31, 2008 4:30 AM, Hank Nussbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: \ I think more interesting is the landing stations where numerous cables intersect. They may be diverse in the water, but they cluster around each other when they hit the landing stations. -Hank They aren't that diverse in the water either and many cables cross each other and cluster before they hit landing stations including out in the middle of the sea. The Teleography maps, for example, are not route maps, they are showing a cable A and Z end with a relative route. The International Cable Protection Committee has some literal maps available that show just how much of a mess it all is. US East Coast to UK West Coast is a great example. -M
RE: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
Cables are mostly damaged by fishing in coastal areas (continental shelf) or by deep undersea currents that erode the polyurethane jacket that protects them. So it is crucial that the cable be buried at least one meter and preferably two meters in coastal waters. The big fishing boats scrape sea floor - the ecological equivalent of surface or 'strip' mining. These boats scrap the ocean floor and can hit the cables or even sever them. And consequently, the cables themselves have thicker and more rugged cladding in the coastal waters. A thick armor in the deep sea is simply too expensive and makes it difficult to raise the cable out of the water and repair it. Too much 'tension' according to the sailors that operate the ships that lay and repair these systems. Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein.
RE: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
Well, take a look at this map and tell me how many TransAtlantic landing stations are within several kilometers of each other. Look at how the TransAtlantic cables converge to landing points (except for Hibernia). http://www.kisca.org.uk/Web_SWApproaches.pdf These maps are used by UK and Irish fishing boats to avoid the undersea cables. Regards, Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Alexander Harrowell Sent: Thu 1/31/2008 10:48 AM To: Hank Nussbacher Cc: Sean Donelan; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 9:30 AM, Hank Nussbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think more interesting is the landing stations where numerous cables intersect. They may be diverse in the water, but they cluster around each other when they hit the landing stations. Exactly; which have historically been in the same strategic locations. Suez, Singapore, Cape Town; it's the strategic map of the British Empire. Five strategic keys lock up the world, as Lord Fisher said. (Dover, Gibraltar, Singapore, Cape Town, and Suez). The similarity is truly uncanny.
RE: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
http://www.kisca.org.uk/Web_SWApproaches.pdf And if you enlarge the map, you can see little dots on the lines representing the cables that denote repairs. Lots and lots of repairs. Treacherous waters. Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: Rod Beck Sent: Thu 1/31/2008 1:05 PM To: Martin Hannigan; Hank Nussbacher Cc: Sean Donelan; nanog@merit.edu Subject: RE: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption http://www.kisca.org.uk/Web_SWApproaches.pdf -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Martin Hannigan Sent: Thu 1/31/2008 12:48 PM To: Hank Nussbacher Cc: Sean Donelan; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption On Jan 31, 2008 4:30 AM, Hank Nussbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: \ I think more interesting is the landing stations where numerous cables intersect. They may be diverse in the water, but they cluster around each other when they hit the landing stations. -Hank They aren't that diverse in the water either and many cables cross each other and cluster before they hit landing stations including out in the middle of the sea. The Teleography maps, for example, are not route maps, they are showing a cable A and Z end with a relative route. The International Cable Protection Committee has some literal maps available that show just how much of a mess it all is. US East Coast to UK West Coast is a great example. -M
RE: Sicily to Egypt undersea cable disruption
Hi Martin, Look more closely. I agree the red dots are repeaters. The yellow dots are repairs. And the yellow dots are bunched, which what you would expect for repairs. Not evenly spaced. Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein.
RE: EU Official: IP Is Personal
I am frankly shocked that some people claim that you cannot identify people by the IP address. There was a scandal in the States where a well known ISP released search records and the New York Times was able to identify individuals using the IP address together with the search records. If a daily newspaper can, I suspect just about any body can ... I see no difference between a static IP address and a credit card number. Neither are the individual's property, but that doesn't mean there should not be legal or ethical obligations surrounding them. As always my opinions are my opinions and not official corporate policy Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of J. Oquendo Sent: Thu 1/24/2008 12:57 PM To: Roland Perry Cc: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: EU Official: IP Is Personal Roland Perry wrote: Putting aside for a moment the issue of whose dollars pay for it there is no fundamental contradiction in the proposition that private sector information can be mandated to be kept for minimum periods, is confidential, but nevertheless can be acquired by lawful subpoena. Think about banking records, for example, which are confidential, routinely examined in criminal enquiries, and which have to be kept for various minimum periods by accountancy law. Operationally, the banks have had to invest in special departments to do just that, it's simply part of the cost of doing business. The difference with banking records and computer generated records is, you can literally track down whether by PIN on an ATM along with for the majority of times an image taken from a camera. Try doing this with IP generated information. While law enforcement subpoenas away information, there is no guarantee person X is definitively behind even a static IP address. Its hearsay no matter how you want to look at this. Outside of the fact that lawyers still up to this day and age can't seem to grasp an all-in-one argument to get IP address information thrown out, what's next? Perhaps law enforcement agencies forcing vendors to include enough memory on wireless devices to track who logged in on a hotspot? Everyone sees the need for all sorts of accounting on the networking side of things but how legitimate is the information when anyone can share MAC addresses, jump into hotspots anonymously, quickly break into wireless networks, venture into an Internet cafe paying cash, throw on a bootable (throwaway) distribution of BSD/Linux/Solaris, do some dirty deed and leave it up to someone else to take the blame. -- J. Oquendo SGFA #579 (FW+VPN v4.1) SGFE #574 (FW+VPN v4.1) wget -qO - www.infiltrated.net/sig|perl http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xF684C42E
RE: EU Official: IP Is Personal
I refer you to the following posting: Our University uses dynamic addressing but we are able to identify likely users in response to the RIAA stuff. There is a hidden step in here, at least for our University, in the IP-to-Person mapping. Our network essentially tracks the IP-to-MAC relationship and the MAC-to-Owner relationship. For us, its not the IP that identifies a person, but the combination of IP plus Timestamp, which can be used to walk our database and produce a system owner. I'm guessing that Google et. al. have a similar multi-factor token set (IP, time, cookie, etc) which allows them to map back to a person. It is easy to back into people's identity. Regards, Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein.
RE: EU Official: IP Is Personal
Hi Jeff, I agree. But gives a lot more information that most people will be comfortable disclosing. It may not guarantee identity, but it can help narrow it down to a household or billing account. I think it is time that privacy trump business interests. Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein.
RE: An Attempt at Economically Rational Pricing: Time Warner Trial
Hi Andrew, I don't think it is obvious that it is too expensive to justify metering in today's environment. Such a claim was definitely true a few years ago when end users were mostly sending email, instant messages, and downloading web pages, but innovation has probably changed the outcome of the cost/benefit analysis so that metering can be justified for the heavy users. Regarding stimulating demand, the only obvious way to increase revenues and profits in a flat rate pricing scheme is to add more users or bundle more products (voice, voicemail, television, etc.). I would argue that the US has reached the point where further increases in broadband penetration probably require either subsidies or government fiat or pressure (Korea, Japan, etc.). And the large American underclass doesn't that help the broadband penetration cause either. Indeed, the virtue of metering is that it gives the provider an incentive to stimulate demand. Flat rate pricing is the worst model in terms of stimulating supply and investment. My humble two cents. PS: I'll take a look at your papers. Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein.
RE: An Attempt at Economically Rational Pricing: Time Warner Trial
Hi Marshall, I think the point is that you need to get buyers to segregate themslevesinto two groups - the light users and the heavy users. By heavy users I mean the 'Bandwidth Hogs' (Oink, Oink) and a light user someone like myself for whom email is the main application. Afterall the problem with the current system is that there is no segregation - everyone is on basically the same plan. The pricing plan needs to be structure in a way that light users have an incentive to take a different pricing plan than do the heavy users. Similar to the way that insurance companies require high premiums for better coverage and more benefits. There must be incentives for the heavy user to reveal him or herself as a heavy user. I am just a dumb sales pushing point-to-point capacity ... So I don't have a good idea of how to do it. Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: Marshall Eubanks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sun 1/20/2008 2:37 PM To: Rod Beck Cc: Scott McGrath; Rod Beck; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Patrick W. Gilmore; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: An Attempt at Economically Rational Pricing: Time Warner Trial On Jan 19, 2008, at 3:25 PM, Rod Beck wrote: If service is metered, it doesn't imply 25 cents a minute. It would probably be based on bytes transferred and would probably be less expensive for the bulk of users than the current flat rate pricing. If the cable companies are telling the truth, roughly 5% of their customers generate 50% of the traffic. That implies that the bulk of users are effectively subsidising the five percent of heavy users. So any sort of well crafted usage-based pricing, would lower the amount paid by the vast majority of users and raise it dramatically for the five percent of heavy users. Dear Rod; This does not match my experience of the world. Raise the price for the 5%, sure. Lower prices for the rest, probably not. What I would really expect to result from this are very complicated bills full of obscure fees that effectively raise almost everyone's monthly charge to well above what they advertise on TV. This is, after all, the common pattern on phone service, and I would expect plans where you get so much bandwidth but if you exceed your limit you are suddenly paying some exorbitant rate per GB. Soon to come would be TV commercials talking about weekend Gigabytes and daytime Gigabytes and how you can carry your unused Gigabytes over from one month to the next. Regards Marshall Usage-based pricing would give the cable companies and telephony incumbents an incentive to upgrade infrastructure and actually compete for the heavy users. The heavy users would be the most profitable customers. New technologies would be welcomed instead of discouraged. Ironically, the Net Neutrality debate is about the access providers trying to impose usage-based pricing through the backdor - on the content providers. It goes without saying I oppose it. It's the end users who decide what they view and hence ultimately generate the traffic flows. So the end users should be subject to the usage- based pricing. Regards, Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein.
RE: An Attempt at Economically Rational Pricing: Time Warner Trial
In the Brave New World, the gap between the average user and the user whose peak demand determines upstream capacity needs, has widened. So the access providers will find that their infrastructure needs upgrading. In particular, the backhaul will need constant upgrading. And of course, more peering. :) More 10 gig waves across the Atlantic! Hahooh! Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Alex Rubenstein Sent: Sun 1/20/2008 8:02 PM To: Taran Rampersad; nanog@merit.edu Subject: RE: An Attempt at Economically Rational Pricing: Time Warner Trial As long as the companies convince people that the cap is large enough to be essentially the same as unmetered then most people won't care and will take the savings. I don't agree. When we sold boatloads of dialup in the mid to late 90's, people did not like caps, no matter how high they were. We sold a product early on for $20/month which gave you 240 hours/month -- that was an average of 8 hours/day. However, most users never used more than 20 to 30 minutes a day -- but we often got told they were moving to other providers because they were 'unlimited.' So, we adapted. In any event, I've been watching this thread, and I'd have to say that going down the road of metered pricing will only cause other providers not to do this, and then market against TW. In fact, I'd bet on it. Am I the only one here who thinks that the major portion of the cost of having a customer is *not* the bandwidth they use?
RE: An Attempt at Economically Rational Pricing: Time Warner Trial
Because the industry needs to attract capital, which is difficult when the payback period on capital expenditures continunes to climb and hence the rate of return continues to fall. The incumbents love to talk about what a great quarter they had selling DSL. But very few (if any) will disclose a profit and loss or cash flow statement for their broadband services. The incumbents provide very little visibility and one reason might be the underlying picture is UGLY. Regards, Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of David Conrad Sent: Fri 1/18/2008 11:06 PM To: Scott McGrath Cc: North American Network Operators Group Subject: Re: An Attempt at Economically Rational Pricing: Time Warner Trial On Jan 18, 2008, at 2:00 PM, Scott McGrath wrote: Why does the industry as a whole keep trying to drag us back to the old days of Prodigy, CompuServe, AOL and really high rates per minute of access. Because they want to make more money and not be a provider of a commodity (see: NGN)? Regards, -drc
RE: An Attempt at Economically Rational Pricing: Time Warner Trial
If service is metered, it doesn't imply 25 cents a minute. It would probably be based on bytes transferred and would probably be less expensive for the bulk of users than the current flat rate pricing. If the cable companies are telling the truth, roughly 5% of their customers generate 50% of the traffic. That implies that the bulk of users are effectively subsidising the five percent of heavy users. So any sort of well crafted usage-based pricing, would lower the amount paid by the vast majority of users and raise it dramatically for the five percent of heavy users. Usage-based pricing would give the cable companies and telephony incumbents an incentive to upgrade infrastructure and actually compete for the heavy users. The heavy users would be the most profitable customers. New technologies would be welcomed instead of discouraged. Ironically, the Net Neutrality debate is about the access providers trying to impose usage-based pricing through the backdor - on the content providers. It goes without saying I oppose it. It's the end users who decide what they view and hence ultimately generate the traffic flows. So the end users should be subject to the usage-based pricing. Regards, Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein.
An Attempt at Economically Rational Pricing: Time Warner Trial
http://www.ecommercetimes.com/rsstory/61251.html Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein.
RE: An Attempt at Economically Rational Pricing: Time Warner Trial
Do other industries have mixed pricing schemes that successfully coexist? Some restuarants are all-you-can-eat and others are pay by portion. You can buy a car outright or rent one and pay by the mile. Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein.
Network Operator Groups Outside the US
Hi Folks, 1. UK: UKNOF; http://www.uknof.org.uk/ I just attended the last meeting Monday. Free and a good lunch included! Please do not confuse UKNOF with the United Kingdom Nitric Oxide Forum. Nitric Oxide keeps your arteries relaxed and your blood pressure under control 2. Europe: RIPE; http://www.ripe.net/ The Big Meeting is in Berlin in early May. 3. France: FRnOG; http://www.frnog.org/ Has several meetings each year. Has interesting discussions in French on its mailing list. Moderator makes Stalin look easy going. 4. UK: LINX; https://www.linx.net/ Has four meetings each year. Not difficult to get invited if you are not a member. 5. LAMBDANET hosts several German ISP meetings; http://www.lambdanet.net/index.php?p=92l=1sid=ee8bc11d266a13bffdcd59ceb45c329d. Language is German. Please do not confuse with the Intranet for the Brothers of Lambda Theta Phi, Latin Fraternity Inc. 6. I am not aware of any Dutch per se ISP conferences although that market is certainly quite vibrant. I am also disappointed to see the Canadians and Irish have next to nothing despite Ireland being the European base of operations for Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and Yahoo. And Canada has over 30 million people. Where is the National Pride? 7. It is worthing mentioning that DEC-IX has started the practice of hosting carrier meetings a la Telx. These are not conferences with lectures, but networking events where each provider has a booth where they can push their products and services. Tends to be more carrier than ISP, but as you know the union of these two sets is not the null set. Quite a bit of overlap. 8. Both DEC-IX and AMS-IX have member meetings each year. Not clear how difficult to get invited if you are not a member. 9. I believe there are some Northern England ISP meetings. Probably MANAP. Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein.
Off Topic
At the risk of incurring Mr. Pilosoft's wrath (the Putin of NANOG?), I'll looking for NANOG style ISP meetings to attend in Europe this year (France, Germany, UK, Belgium, and Netherlands). Any suggestions would be appreciated. Please bypass the list and send them directly to me. Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein.
RE: FW: ISPs slowing P2P traffic...
I have reached the conclusion that some of these threads are good indicators of the degree of underemployment among our esteemed members. But don't worry, I am not a snitch. Roderick S. Beck Director of European Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Martin Hannigan Sent: Tue 1/15/2008 9:25 PM To: Joe Greco Cc: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: FW: ISPs slowing P2P traffic... On Jan 15, 2008 3:52 PM, Joe Greco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joe Greco wrote: I have no idea what the networking equivalent of thirty-seven half-eaten bags of Cheetos is, can't even begin to imagine what the virtual equivalent of my couch is, etc. Your metaphor doesn't really make any sense to me, sorry. There isn't one. The fat man metaphor was getting increasingly silly, I just wanted to get it over with. Actually, it was doing pretty well up 'til near the end. \ Not really, it's been pretty far out there for more than a few posts and was completely dead when farting and burping was used in an analogy. -M
RE: BitTorrent swarms have a deadly bite on broadband nets
The vast bulk of users have no idea how many bytes they consume each month or the bytes generated by different applications. The schemes being advocated in this discussion require that the end users be Layer 3 engineers. Actually, it sounds a lot like the Electric7 tariffs found in the UK for electricity. These are typically used by low income people who have less education than the average population. And yet they can understand the concept of saving money by using more electricity at night. I really think that a two-tiered QOS system such as the scavenger suggestion is workable if the applications can do the marking. Has anyone done any testing to see if DSCP bits are able to travel unscathed through the public Internet? --Michael Dillon P.S. it would be nice to see QoS be recognized as a mechanism for providing a degraded quality of service instead of all the first class marketing puffery. It is not question of whether you approve of the marketing puffery or not. By the way, telecom is an industry that has used tiered pricing schemes extensively, both in the 'voice era' and in the early dialup industry. In the early 90s there were dial up pricing plans that rewarded customers for limiting their activity to the evening and weekends. MCI, one of the early long distance voice entrants, had all sorts of discounts, including weekend and evening promotions. Interestingly enough, although those schemes are clearly attractive from an efficiency standpoint, the entire industry have shifted towards flat rate pricing for both voice and data. To dismiss that move as purely driven by marketing strikes me as misguided. That have to be real costs involved for such a system to fall apart.
RE: BitTorrent swarms have a deadly bite on broadband nets
On 24-okt-2007, at 17:39, Rod Beck wrote: A simpler and hence less costly approach for those providers serving mass markets is to stick to flat rate pricing and outlaw high-bandwidth applications that are used by only a small number of end users. That's not going to work in the long run. Just my podcasts are about 10 GB a month. You only have to wait until there's more HD video available online and it gets easier to get at for most people to see bandwidth use per customer skyrocket. There are much worse things than having customers that like using your service as much as they can. Oh, let me be clear. I don't know if it will work long term. But businessmen like simple rules of thumb and flat rate for the masses and banishing the rest will be the default strategy. The real question is whether a pricing/service structure can be devised that allows the mass market providers to make money off the problematic heavy users. If so, then you will get a tiered structure: flat rate for the masses and a more expensive service for the Bandwidth Hogs. Actually, there are not many worse things than customers that use your service so much that they ruin your business model. Yes, I believe the industry needs to reach accomodation with the Bandwidth Hogs because they will drive the growth, and if it is profitable growth, then all parties benefit. But you are only going to get the Bandwidth Addicts to pay more is by banishing them from flat services. They won't go gently into the night. In fact, I am sure how profitable are the Addicts given the stereotype of the 20 something ... - R.
RE: BitTorrent swarms have a deadly bite on broadband nets
The vast bulk of users have no idea how many bytes they consume each month or the bytes generated by different applications. The schemes being advocated in this discussion require that the end users be Layer 3 engineers. That might dramatically shrink you 'addressable market', not to mention your job market ... :) Roderick S. Beck Director of EMEA Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein.
RE: Internet access in Japan (was Re: BitTorrent swarms have a deadly bite on broadband nets)
On Wednesday 24 October 2007 05:36, Henry Yen wrote: On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 09:20:49AM -0400, Leo Bicknell wrote: Why are no major us builders installing FTTH today? Greenfield should be the easiest, and major builders like Pulte, Centex and the like should be eager to offer it; but don't. Well, Verizon seems to be making heavy bets on replacing significant chunks of old copper plant with FTTH. Here's a recent FiOS announcement: Linkname: Verizon discovers symmetry, offers 20/20 symmetrical FiOS service URL: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071023-verizon-discovers-symmetry-of fers-2020-symmetrical-fios-service.html While probably more good than bad, it is my understanding that when Verizon (and others) provide FTTH (fiber to the home) they cut or physically disconnect all other connections to that residence. so much for any choice... Exactly. And because they installed fiber, the FCC has ruled that they do not have to provide unbundled network elements to competitors. I expect that when you look at the population of broadband users, it is only a tiny percentage that really need fiber to their residence. Let's remember that one of the main reasons that broadband displaced dial up was that it is always available and does not interfer with phone service. - R.
RE: BitTorrent swarms have a deadly bite on broadband nets
That misses the point. They are probably being forced to adapt by a monopoly or a quasi-monopoly or by the fact that transport into Australia is extremely expensive. The situation outside of Australia is quite different. A DS3 from Sydney to LA is worth about 10 DS3s NYC/London. It is not impossible to move people to these price schemes, but in a market with many providers, it is highly risky. A simpler and hence less costly approach for those providers serving mass markets is to stick to flat rate pricing and outlaw high-bandwidth applications that are used by only a small number of end users. Roderick S. Beck Director of EMEA Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein.
RE: Internet access in Japan (was Re: BitTorrent swarms have a deadly bite on broadband nets)
Exactly. And because they installed fiber, the FCC has ruled that they do not have to provide unbundled network elements to competitors. It's this last bit that seems to be leading to lots of complaints, and it's the earlier pricing of unbundled network elements at or above the cost of complete service packages that many CLECs and competitive ISPs blamed for their demise. Some like to see big conspiracies here, but I'm not convinced that it wasn't just a matter of bad planning on the parts of the ISPs and CLECs, perhaps brought on by bad incentives in the law. I don't think this was what was intended. My impression is that the wholesale copper was supposed to be a temporary bridge to allow the new entrants time to build infrastructure of their own. That's why the rules about sharing didn't apply to infrastructure built by the ILECs later. But new entrants building their own infrastructure generally didn't happen. Instead, the end-user ISP operators I was dealing with at the time generally seemed outraged that the evil phone companies, which should have been there to sell wholesale services to them, were instead competing in their markets. Unfortunately for them, the phone companies not only undercut them on cost, but generally built better networks. Given the impending obsolescence of the phone companies' traditional businesses, what else would the phone companies have been expected to do? The exception to this was the cable companies. They already had some physical plant of their own, but they invested a lot of money in a lot of new construction. Many of them didn't do financially well on the deals, but even those who ran out of money left behind infrastructure that is now effectively competing. This isn't to say the original encouragement of CLECs using ILEC copper in the 1996 telecommunications act wasn't without benefits. I rather doubt the ILECs would have gotten as interested in DSL as they did, if there hadn't been the threat of losing the business to competition. But given that improvements in speed since the initial crushing of the upstarts have been mostly limited to trying to match the capabilities of the cable companies, perhaps it wasn't the best strategy for the long term. If those who want to compete need to build some infrastructure of their own, and if anybody is successful in doing so, that should have a much bigger impact in terms of putting long term pressure on the ILECs to provide better service. That's where I disagree. The economic argument is that it is more efficient to share the Last Mile subject to rate of return constraints than for a dozen carriers to build their own Last Mile facilities. In fact, it is extremely naive to think that long term all these carriers would actually build their own Last Mile facilities. It is not economically sustainable or efficent to have massive overbuilding. Simply put, if the ILEC loses a customer to the competition, why not use the ILEC copper pair to reach that customer? Given copper pairs do have the ability to provide the services most residential customers want (except for a bloggers who insist every needs a 10 gig wave to their home), why waste scare econonomic resources to do overbuilding? In Europe unbundling has worked well and led to a highly competitive market where no such market would exist in its absence. All of this suggests that the problem was not the 1996 Telecom Act, but the ability of the incumbents to use the Courts to undermine (which they did quite successfully) and a lack of political will. You can't get away with bizarre legal interpretations on this side of the Atlantic like you can in the States. If European regulatory agencies want unbundling, they get it and the PTTs make sure it works or they are subject to more than Mickey Mouse fines a la FCC. And there is no expectation that this a stop gap measure. Unbundling will exist as long the competitors want to exist. Regards, Roderick.
RE: Internet access in Japan (was Re: BitTorrent swarms have a deadly bite on broadband nets)
I did consulting work for NTT in 2001 and 2002 and visited their Tokyo headquarters twice. NTT has two ILEC divisions, NTT East and NTT West. The ILEC management told me in conversations that there was no money in fiber-to-the-home; the entire rollout was due to government pressure and was well below a competitive rate of return. Similarly, NTT kept staff they did not need becuase the government wanted to maintain high employment in Japan and avoid the social stress that results from massive layoffs. You should not assume that 'Japanese capitalism' works like American capitalism. It doesn't. NTT only reveals financial statistics at the aggregate level; the cross subsidies between divisions is completely hidden and this enables them to pursue the government's social objectives. Moreover, it is not clear that you should desire broadband rollout at any cost. Presumably broadband access should be justified as satisfying some net benefit criterion (benefits minus costs). A better model is the French model which generates very high broadband penetration rates and is economically rational. France has successfully forced the ILEC to open up the central offices and you now have two highly successful and publicly traded DSL providers, Neuf Cegetel and Free. The US effort failed because of silly arguments based on the equally silly notion that private property is an absolute right and that forcing the ILECs to share facilities even when they are receiving a fair return of return in a form of 'confiscation'. As always, these comments are mine and not the position of Hibernia Atlantic. Roderick S. Beck Director of EMEA Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein.
RE: New TransPacific Cable Projects:
Here is a TeleGeography news article worth a quick read: http://www.telegeography.com/cu/article.php?article_id=19783email=html It appears that that article assumes that capacity will not be increased by WDM products...have those that been applied on those links already reached the cables' maximum capabilities based on current technology? Frank I think you are going to find that the numbe of waves that can put on an undersea fiber is a function of the distance between the landing stations. Obviously most TransPacific cables traverse greater distances and hence probably cannot carry as many waves as TransAtlantic cables. There is also a need for cables that are diverse from the existing cables. So lighting more capacity will not solve the physical diversity problems that were highlighted by the December earthquakes. Most modern undersea cables have four fiber pairs per cable. And each of those fiber pairs can handle from 24 to 80 10 gig waves. Hibernia can do 80 10 gig waves, but only becuase we replaced the undersea DWDM kit deployed at our landing stations. Regards, - Roderick. This e-mail and any attachments thereto is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may be proprietary and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, without the prior written permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately telephone or e-mail the sender and permanently delete the original copy and any copy of this e-mail, and any printout thereof. All documents, contracts or agreements referred or attached to this e-mail are SUBJECT TO CONTRACT. The contents of an attachment to this e-mail may contain software viruses that could damage your own computer system. While Hibernia Atlantic has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, we cannot accept liability for any damage that you sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment
RE: New TransPacific Cable Projects:
It is not obvious to me that there is a Pacific cable capacity glut. For example, I sold a DS3 from LA to Hong Kong for $6K MRC whereas the last time a wholesale TransAtlantic DS3 rivaled that figure was 2001. Now you could argue that one needs to look at pricing on a mileage-adjusted basis since the typical TransPacific cable spans a much greater distance than its TransAtlantic counterpart. But operating costs are not proportional to mileage - the bulk of your operating expense is what you pay the undersea maintenance companies such as Global Marine and Tyco Submarine and Alcatel. And their annual charges are not very sensitive to distance. What is peculiar about the Pacific is the lack of new products. For example, it's extremely difficult to get any Ethernet transport on many routes such as LA/Sydney or into India. Yes, there is some Ethernet/IP junk, but that doesn't meet most of my clients' performance standards. It is IP masquerading as Ethernet. In fact, it is very difficult to find Packet-over-SDH Ethernet even on the all-important LA/HK route. To sum up, I do believe the median Pacific cable enjoys a substantial margin advantage over the median Atlantic There is only TransAtlantic cable that is particularly well right now, largely due to its unique physical diversity and footprint. Roderick S. Beck Director of EMEA Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209. French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97. AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Deepak Jain Sent: Sat 9/22/2007 12:44 AM To: nanog list Subject: New TransPacific Cable Projects: This is what happens when I stay late at the office on a Friday. http://www.commsday.com/node/186 - Google participating in a new Transpacific Cable Project http://www.networkworld.com/news/2006/121806-verizon-business.html - Verizon on a different transpacific project And all the same articles say there is already an overpriced glut of capacity along these routes and a glut of fiber laying ocean vessels. Good times. Rather than having competition, everyone is just building their own routes that they won't share at wholesale prices to folks in the wholesale buying business. :) Ahh... reminds me of the late 90s when everyone was building dark fiber networks for the surge of demand that was coming. Now, the remaining folks are buying up all the unused bits to constrain capacity. If I were a stakeholder in transpacific cables, I'd be leasing up the next 3-6 years of the entire global cable laying fleet. :) Deepak Jain AiNET This e-mail and any attachments thereto is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may be proprietary and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, without the prior written permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately telephone or e-mail the sender and permanently delete the original copy and any copy of this e-mail, and any printout thereof. All documents, contracts or agreements referred or attached to this e-mail are SUBJECT TO CONTRACT. The contents of an attachment to this e-mail may contain software viruses that could damage your own computer system. While Hibernia Atlantic has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, we cannot accept liability for any damage that you sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment
RE: New TransPacific Cable Projects:
On Sep 22, 2007, at 5:26 AM, Rod Beck wrote: It is not obvious to me that there is a Pacific cable capacity glut. For example, I sold a DS3 from LA to Hong Kong for $6K MRC whereas the last time a wholesale TransAtlantic DS3 rivaled that figure was 2001. Not to mention that the Taiwan straits earthquake showed a clear lack of physical diversity on a number of important Pacific routes, which I know some companies are laying fiber to address. Regards Marshall Human beings systematically underestimate certain risks and exaggerate others. The defenders of the Pacific cables will point out that the cables were actually quite well spaced and that the only reason so many cables were destroyed was that the earthquake caused an undersea landslipe that rolled over hundreds of kilometers. However, the Taiwan strait is an area of constant seismic activity and that risk was ignored largely because the Big One occurs infrequently enough not to matter to the decision makers. On the other side of the coin, the average American is more likely to die in a car accident than a terrorist attack. Yet the US devotes more resources to preventing terrorist attaacks than to preventing car accidents or reducing its extreme high infant mortality rate (twice the level of developed countries like Canada or France). This e-mail and any attachments thereto is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may be proprietary and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, without the prior written permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately telephone or e-mail the sender and permanently delete the original copy and any copy of this e-mail, and any printout thereof. All documents, contracts or agreements referred or attached to this e-mail are SUBJECT TO CONTRACT. The contents of an attachment to this e-mail may contain software viruses that could damage your own computer system. While Hibernia Atlantic has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, we cannot accept liability for any damage that you sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment
RE: Cogent latency / congestion
As opposed to 'unintentionally sabotaged'? I think there is some redundancy there ... Sorry for the cheap shot, it was just too tempting. Roderick S. Beck Director of EMEA Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209 AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Eric Spaeth Sent: Mon 8/20/2007 11:06 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Cogent latency / congestion This appears to be affecting Telia as well. Here was their last update: Concerning the cable break near Cleveland we have been informed that the cables have been intentionally sabotaged. The provider informed that they need to change the whole damaged fibre part and that is 3600 feet. Fibre has been ordered and ETA is 1900 UTC. Once the fibre arrives they need to blow it into the 3600 feet long duct before the splicing can start. -Eric This e-mail and any attachments thereto is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may be proprietary and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, without the prior written permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately telephone or e-mail the sender and permanently delete the original copy and any copy of this e-mail, and any printout thereof. All documents, contracts or agreements referred or attached to this e-mail are SUBJECT TO CONTRACT. The contents of an attachment to this e-mail may contain software viruses that could damage your own computer system. While Hibernia Atlantic has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, we cannot accept liability for any damage that you sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment
RE: Extreme congestion (was Re: inter-domain link recovery)
Is this a declaration of principles? There is no reason why 'Tier 1' means that
the carrier will not have an incentive to shape or even block traffic.
Particularly, if they have a lot of eyeballs.
Roderick S. Beck
Director of EMEA Sales
Hibernia Atlantic
1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris
http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com
Wireless: 1-212-444-8829.
Landline: 33-1-4346-3209
AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert
Einstein.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Chiloé Temuco
Sent: Wed 8/15/2007 6:06 PM
To: nanog@merit.edu
Subject: Re: Extreme congestion (was Re: inter-domain link recovery)
Congestion and applications...
My opinion:
A tier 1 provider does not care what traffic it carries. That is all a
function of the application not the network.
A tier 2 provider may do traffic shaping, etc.
A tier 3 provider may decide to block traffic paterns.
More or less... The network was intended to move data from one machine to
another... The less manipulation in the middle the better... No manipulation
of the payload is the name of the game.
That being said. It's entirely a function of the application to timeout and
drop out of order packets, etc.
ONS is designed around this principle.
In streaming data... often it is better to get bad or missing data than to try
and put out of order or bad data in the buffer...
A good example is digital over-the-air tv... If you didn't build in enough
error correction... then you'll have digital breakup, etc. It is impossible
to recover any of that data.
If reliable transport of data is required... That is a function of the
application.
ONS is an Optical Networking Standard in the development stage.
-Chiloe Temuco
On 8/15/07, Stephen Wilcox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hey Sean,
On Wed, Aug 15, 2007 at 11:35:43AM -0400, Sean Donelan wrote:
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007, Stephen Wilcox wrote:
(Check slide 4) - the simple fact was that with something like 7 of 9
cables down the redundancy is useless .. even if operators maintained
N+1 redundancy which is unlikely for many operators that would imply
50% of capacity was actually used with 50% spare.. however we see
around 78% of capacity is lost. There was simply to much traffic and
not enough capacity.. IP backbones fail pretty badly when faced with
extreme congestion.
Remember the end-to-end principle. IP backbones don't fail with
extreme
congestion, IP applications fail with extreme congestion.
Hmm I'm not sure about that... a 100% full link dropping packets causes
many problems:
L7: Applications stop working, humans get angry
L4: TCP/UDP drops cause retransmits, connection drops, retries etc
L3: BGP sessions drop, OSPF hellos are lost.. routing fails
L2: STP packets dropped.. switching fails
I believe any or all of the above could occur on a backbone which has
just failed massively and now has 20% capacity available such as occurred in SE
Asia
Should IP applications respond to extreme congestion conditions
better?
alert('Connection dropped')
Ping timed out
kinda icky but its not the applications job to manage the network
Or should IP backbones have methods to predictably control which IP
applications receive the remaining IP bandwidth? Similar to the
telephone
network special information tone -- All Circuits are Busy. Maybe
we've
found a new use for ICMP Source Quench.
yes and no.. for a private network perhaps, but for the Internet
backbone where all traffic is important (right?), differentiation is difficult
unless applied at the edge and you have major failure and congestion i dont see
what you can do that will have any reasonable effect. perhaps you are a
government contractor and you reserve some capacity for them and drop
everything else but what is really out there as a solution?
FYI I have seen telephone networks fail badly under extreme congestion.
CO's have small CPUs that dont do a whole lot - setup calls, send busy signals
.. once a call is in place it doesnt occupy CPU time as the path is locked in
place elsewhere. however, if something occurs to cause a serious amount of busy
ccts then CPU usage goes thro the roof and you can cause cascade failures of
whole COs
telcos look to solutions such as call gapping to intervene when they
anticipate major congestion, and not rely on the network to handle it
Even if the IP protocols recover as designed, does human impatience
mean
there is a maximum recovery timeout period before humans
RE: US transit providers with slightly better than average International connectivity?
How about Telia or T Systems or PCCW? All of those carriers are worthy of scrutiny. Roderick S. Beck Director of EMEA Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209 AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Sargun Dhillon Sent: Mon 8/13/2007 8:01 PM To: Drew Weaver; 'nanog@merit.edu' Subject: Re: US transit providers with slightly better than average International connectivity? Drew Weaver wrote: How about to this IP? 62.150.200.10 -Original Message- From: Sargun Dhillon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 1:58 PM To: Drew Weaver Cc: 'nanog@merit.edu' Subject: Re: US transit providers with slightly better than average International connectivity? Drew Weaver wrote: Howdy, I know with the trans-atlantic and trans-pacific connectivity being what it is these days that getting reliable (i.e. low latency 200, low packet loss 5% total round-trip) to countries such as AE and others is kind of a shot in the dark. However, I wanted to ping the list and see if anyone has had 'better luck/worse luck' with particular transit providers. We're currently utilizing Time Warner Telecom, Level3, and Global Crossing as our transit partners and we're shopping for a fourth at this time, we would really like to find a transit provider with 'better' international presence. Any suggestions based on experience? Thanks, -Drew As a test point let's try: 212.58.224.131 That's the BBC. Posting traceroutes would be the best. Here is mine from internap: core1.t6-1-bbnet1.sje.pnap.net 0.0% 2895 2.1 21.3 1.9 1671. 101.6 xe-1-3.r02.snjsca04.us.bb.gin.ntt.net 1.7% 2895 2.1 25.7 2.0 1301. 92.6 xe-1-2.r03.snjsca04.us.bb.gin.ntt.net 0.8% 2895 2.2 25.5 2.0 1764. 108.7 sjo-bb1-link.telia.net 0.0% 2895 2.3 15.3 2.1 1680. 109.5 nyk-bb1-link.telia.net 0.2% 2895 73.8 86.1 73.7 1596. 101.4 ldn-bb1-pos7-1-0.telia.net 0.0% 2895 143.1 155.5 141.8 1551. 100.4 ldn-bb1-link.telia.net ldn-bb1-link.telia.net 9. ldn-b1-pos3-0.telia.net 0.0% 2895 144.9 163.2 141.8 1470. 99.8 ldn-b1-link.telia.net 10. siemens-118436-ldn-b1.c.telia.net 0.0% 2895 144.8 165.2 141.9 1470. 106.4 11. 212.58.238.153 0.1% 2895 143.3 157.7 141.9 1386. 97.5 12. rdirwww-vip.thdo.bbc.co.uk 0.1% 2895 146.3 156.0 141.8 1636. 99.4 -- Sargun Dhillon deCarta [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.decarta.com ATT: Success rate is 100 percent (5/5), round-trip min/avg/max = 200/203/208 ms Global Crossing: 283 msec SAVVIS: 245.461 msec QWEST: min/avg/max = 312/313/317 UUNET: 379 msec Level3: min/avg/median/max/mdev/stddev = 244/252.8/252/280/2.332/9.432 ms I just used the looking glasses to check latency -- Sargun Dhillon deCarta [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.decarta.com This e-mail and any attachments thereto is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may be proprietary and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, without the prior written permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately telephone or e-mail the sender and permanently delete the original copy and any copy of this e-mail, and any printout thereof. All documents, contracts or agreements referred or attached to this e-mail are SUBJECT TO CONTRACT. The contents of an attachment to this e-mail may contain software viruses that could damage your own computer system. While Hibernia Atlantic has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, we cannot accept liability for any damage that you sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment
Content Delivery Networks
Can anyone give a breakdown of the different kinds of content deliver networks? For example, we have Akamai, which appears to be a pure Layer 3 network that is tailored to pushing relatively small files like web pages and we have Lime Light Networks, which is a mix of Layer 1 and Layer 3, that focuses on bigger files like video streams. Any insights out there? And what are the major challenges in making scalable content delivery networks? Roderick S. Beck Director of EMEA Sales Hibernia Atlantic 1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209 AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Jason J. W. Williams Sent: Fri 8/3/2007 10:32 PM To: Pekka Savola; Robert Boyle Cc: ALEJANDRO ESQUIVEL RODRIGUEZ; nanog@merit.edu Subject: RE: Cisco CRS-1 vs Juniper 1600 vs Huawei NE5000E We're Juniper right now, but we're looking at the Foundry MLX line for possible future sites due to cost/performance. So I'd be interested in folks' experience with Foundry's Terathon gear and associated IronWare revs. Its supposed to be a lot better than the JetCore stuff (cam-trashing problems etc.) but it'd be nice to hear what folks are seeing in real life. Best Regards, Jason -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pekka Savola Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 3:07 PM To: Robert Boyle Cc: ALEJANDRO ESQUIVEL RODRIGUEZ; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Cisco CRS-1 vs Juniper 1600 vs Huawei NE5000E On Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Robert Boyle wrote: At 02:17 AM 8/3/2007, you wrote: Hi,, group I need some help. Which equipment is better ( perfomance, availability, scalability, features, Support, and Price ($$$) ) ??? Some experience in the real life Dependent on your interface needs, if GigE, 10G, (40G 100G in the future) and POS are all you need, include the Foundry XMR in your eval too. Very solid software and excellent support at a price point which is significantly lower than C J. I don't know the pricing for H. Any experiences of Foundry routing w/ more complex protocols (PIM, MSDP, various IPv6 stuff)? The last time we tried running non-C/J as a router was a very Extreme experience and we swore never again to touch similar router underdogs in the future. -- Pekka Savola You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oykingdom bleeds. Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings !SIG:46b39bc6156532946815078! This e-mail and any attachments thereto is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may be proprietary and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, without the prior written permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately telephone or e-mail the sender and permanently delete the original copy and any copy of this e-mail, and any printout thereof. All documents, contracts or agreements referred or attached to this e-mail are SUBJECT TO CONTRACT. The contents of an attachment to this e-mail may contain software viruses that could damage your own computer system. While Hibernia Atlantic has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, we cannot accept liability for any damage that you sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment
RE: TransAtlantic Cable Break
Protected 10 gig waves NYC/London are extremely expensive. Say $60K or more per month. So it usually makes sense for the Layer 3 guys to lease diversely routed 10 gig waves and do the protection themselves using MPLS or load balancing or some other protocol about which I know little ... Roderick S. Beck Hibernia Atlantic 1 Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. Landline: 33-1-4346-3209 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Sean Donelan Sent: Fri 6/22/2007 4:56 PM To: Hank Nussbacher Cc: nanog Subject: Re: TransAtlantic Cable Break On Fri, 22 Jun 2007, Hank Nussbacher wrote: Tell that to the 10 gig wave customers who lost service. Very few cable systems provide protection at the 10 gig wave level. If you don't pay the extra amount for a protected circuit, why should your circuit get protection for free when others have to pay for it? Now, if there are 10G customers with protected circuits who lost service, then hopefully they have in their contract hefty penalty clauses against the carrier. If not, then they are just plain stupid. Is paying for protected circuits actually worth it. Or are you better off just buying two circuits and using both during normal conditions. Use switching at layer 3 to the remaining circuit during abnormal conditions. Most of the time, you get twice the capacity for only twice the price instead of a protected circuit where you only get the once the capacity for twice the price. Of course, there is still the problem some facility provider will groom both your circuits on to the same cable. If you are buying pre-emptable circuits, hopefully you understand what that means. This e-mail and any attachments thereto is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may be proprietary and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, without the prior written permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately telephone or e-mail the sender and permanently delete the original copy and any copy of this e-mail, and any printout thereof. All documents, contracts or agreements referred or attached to this e-mail are SUBJECT TO CONTRACT. The contents of an attachment to this e-mail may contain software viruses that could damage your own computer system. While Hibernia Atlantic has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, we cannot accept liability for any damage that you sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment
RE: UK ISP threatens security researcher
Gentlemen and Ladies, I think we should shut down this line of argument. Enjoy the beautiful weather here and Europe and have a good weekend. Regards, Roderick S. Beck Hibernia Atlantic 30 Dongan Place, NY, NY 10040 http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Landline: 1-212-942-3345 Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Patrick W. Gilmore Sent: Fri 4/20/2007 7:25 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Cc: Patrick W. Gilmore Subject: Re: UK ISP threatens security researcher well-deserved criminal record for his stupidity. Where is the criminal record for the idiot who allowed remote access with a single username and password to every single cable modem? That's pretty damned stupid. Honetly- when did we all become such vindictive assholes? Had the guy caused any real damage then you might have an argument. He didn't. We need to stop letting companies abuse the law instead of performing due dilligence. AOL Well Deserved Criminal Record For His Stupidity? I'm thinking that if stupidity qualifies one for a criminal record, the original poster must have a long rap-sheet. -- TTFN, patrick This e-mail and any attachments thereto is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may be proprietary and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, without the prior written permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately telephone or e-mail the sender and permanently delete the original copy and any copy of this e-mail, and any printout thereof. All documents, contracts or agreements referred or attached to this e-mail are SUBJECT TO CONTRACT. The contents of an attachment to this e-mail may contain software viruses that could damage your own computer system. While Hibernia Atlantic has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, we cannot accept liability for any damage that you sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment
RE: redefining which infrastructure is the proble [was: Re: On-going ..]
I rarely post, but that is clearly a problem. The Americans seem to believe in the presumption of guilt and the infallibility of accusation. As an American born and bred I can hardly be accused of bias. Clearly spam is a serious problem in terms of draining network resources, but organizations like Spamhaus don't even do an investigation. Maybe this new American mentality explains Guantanamo Bay. Roderick S. Beck Hibernia Atlantic 30 Dongan Place, NY, NY 10040 http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Landline: 1-212-942-3345 Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Stephane Bortzmeyer Sent: Mon 4/2/2007 1:58 PM To: Gadi Evron Cc: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: redefining which infrastructure is the proble [was: Re: On-going ..] On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 09:51:16PM -0500, Gadi Evron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote a message of 39 lines which said: I can testify as to some registrars (enom, godaddy, tucows, etc.) being very responsive and some registries (read .info) being very cooperative. OBVIOUSLY this is not the case for everyone. If being cooperative means shoot immediately any presumed-to-be-innocent each time a random vigilante asks you so, I hope that the .fr registry is uncooperative. This e-mail and any attachments thereto is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may be proprietary and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, without the prior written permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately telephone or e-mail the sender and permanently delete the original copy and any copy of this e-mail, and any printout thereof. All documents, contracts or agreements referred or attached to this e-mail are SUBJECT TO CONTRACT. The contents of an attachment to this e-mail may contain software viruses that could damage your own computer system. While Hibernia Atlantic has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, we cannot accept liability for any damage that you sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment
RE: redefining which infrastructure is the proble [was: Re: On-going ..]
Hi John, No where in that email did I say Spamhaus was an American organization. So let's not be petty. As for Spamahaus' professionalism, I would be point that some organizations that use opt-in list still get hit by Spamhaus either because the end users complained after apparently 1. forgetting that they had opted into the list 2. or they changed their mind. Many of the biggest publishing houses now run their email operations overseas precisely because they are tired of dealing with Spamhaus complaints The question is how is to achieve accountability. I don't think volunteer organizations are ideal from an accountability point of view. Regards, Roderick S. Beck Hibernia Atlantic 30 Dongan Place, NY, NY 10040 http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com Landline: 1-212-942-3345 Wireless: 1-212-444-8829. [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' Albert Einstein. -Original Message- From: John Levine [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mon 4/2/2007 3:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Rod Beck Subject: Re: redefining which infrastructure is the proble [was: Re: On-going ..] I rarely post, but that is clearly a problem. The Americans seem to believe in the presumption of guilt and the infallibility of accusation. As an American born and bred I can hardly be accused of bias. Clearly spam is a serious problem in terms of draining network resources, but organizations like Spamhaus don't even do an investigation. Even if this were on-topic, don't you think it would a good idea to make at least a cursory attempt to get your facts straight? Spamhaus is located in the UK, I personally know multiple Spamhaus volunteers who spend vast amounts of time resarching their blacklist entries, and they put large dossiers on their web site to document them. ObOperations: Spamhaus publishes a drop list of IP ranges intended for your router that I heartily recommend. It is much smaller than their mail blacklist, chosen to include only network ranges with no socically redeeming value at all. R's, John Hi Joe, I know some organizations that use opt-in list and yet got complaints either because the end users complained after apparently 1. forgetting that they opted into the list 2. or they changed their mind. Many of the biggest publishing houses now run their email operations overseas precisely because they are tired dealing with Spamhaus. This e-mail and any attachments thereto is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may be proprietary and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, without the prior written permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately telephone or e-mail the sender and permanently delete the original copy and any copy of this e-mail, and any printout thereof. All documents, contracts or agreements referred or attached to this e-mail are SUBJECT TO CONTRACT. The contents of an attachment to this e-mail may contain software viruses that could damage your own computer system. While Hibernia Atlantic has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, we cannot accept liability for any damage that you sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment
RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
Well, gentlemen, you have to ask for the fiber maps and have them placed in the contract as an exhibit. Most of the large commercial banks are doing it. It's doable, but it does require effort. And again, sorry for the dislaimer. It should be gone tomorrow. Regards, - Roderick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Sean Donelan Sent: Sun 1/21/2007 8:13 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted On Sun, 21 Jan 2007, Rod Beck wrote: Unfortunately it is news to the decision makers, the buyers of network capacity at many of the major IP backbones. Indeed, the Atlantic route has problems quite similar to the Pacific. If this is news to them, perhaps its time to get new decision makers and buyers of network capacity at major IP backbones :-) Unfotunately people have to learn the same lessons over and over again. http://www.atis.org/ndai/ End-to-end multi-carrier circuit diversity assurance currently cannot be conducted in a scalable manner. The cost and level of manual effort required demonstrated that an ongoing program for end-to-end multi-carrier circuit diversity assurance cannot currently be widely offered. http://www.atis.org/PRESS/pressreleases2006/031506.htm The NDAI report confirmed our suspicions that diversity assurance is not for the meek, Malphrus added. It is expensive and requires commitment by the customer to work closely with carriers in performing due diligence. Until the problem is solved, circuit route diversity should not be promoted as a general customer best practice. This e-mail and any attachments thereto is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may be proprietary and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, without the prior written permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately telephone or e-mail the sender and permanently delete the original copy and any copy of this e-mail, and any printout thereof. All documents, contracts or agreements referred or attached to this e-mail are SUBJECT TO CONTRACT. The contents of an attachment to this e-mail may contain software viruses that could damage your own computer system. While Hibernia Atlantic has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, we cannot accept liability for any damage that you sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment
RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
Well, I work for an undersea cable system and we are quite to willing to share the information under NDA that is required to make an intelligent decision. That means the street-level fiber maps and details of the undersea routes. However, there is a general reluctance because so many carriers are using the same conduits. A lot of fiber trunks can put in a conduit system so it was the norm for carriers to joint builds. For example, in the NYC metropolitan area virtually all carriers use the same conduit to move their traffic through the streets of New York. And again, I will remove the disclaimer. Regards, Roderick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Aaron Glenn Sent: Sun 1/21/2007 8:40 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted On 1/20/07, Brian Wallingford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's news? The same still happens with much land-based sonet, where diverse paths still share the same entrance to a given facility. Unless each end can negotiate cost sharing for diverse paths, or unless the owner of the fiber can cost justify the same, chances are you're not going to see the ideal. Money will always speak louder than idealism. Undersea paths complicate this even further. Just the other night I was trolling marketing materials for various lit services from a number of providers and I ran across what I found to be an interesting PDF from the ol' SBC (can't find it at the moment). It was a government services product briefing and in it it detailed six levels of path diversity. These six levels ranged from additional fiber on the same cable to redundant, diverse paths to redundant facility entrances into redundant wire centers. What struck me as interesting is that the government gets clearly definied levels of diversity for their services, but I've never run across anything similar in the commercial/enterprise/wholesale market. Are the Sprints/Verizons/ATTs/FLAGs/etc of the world clearly defining levels of diversity for their services to people? This e-mail and any attachments thereto is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may be proprietary and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, without the prior written permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately telephone or e-mail the sender and permanently delete the original copy and any copy of this e-mail, and any printout thereof. All documents, contracts or agreements referred or attached to this e-mail are SUBJECT TO CONTRACT. The contents of an attachment to this e-mail may contain software viruses that could damage your own computer system. While Hibernia Atlantic has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, we cannot accept liability for any damage that you sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment
RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
Hi John, There I disagree. Not with your statement, which is correct, but the implication. Most transatlantic cables are in the same backhaul conduit systems. For example, the three systems that land in New Jersey use the same conduit to backhaul their traffic to New York. The other three that land on Long Island use the same conduit system to reach NYC. By the way, the situation is even worse on the UK side where most of these cables are in one conduit system. And very few of those systems can avoid New York, which is a diversity requirement of many banks and one which the IP backbones should probably also adopt. You can't claim to have sufficient physical diversity when of the 7 major TransAtlantic cables, five of them terminate at the same end points. Only Apollo and Hibernia have diversity in that respect. Apollo's Southern cable lands in France and Hibernia lands in Canada and Northern England. And yes, I will remove the gargantuan disclaimer tomorrow. Regards, Roderick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of John Levine Sent: Sun 1/21/2007 9:05 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted In many places (based on a quick scan of the telegeography map from 200 posts ago...) it seems like cable landings are all very much centrally located in any one geographic area. There are like 5 on the east coast near NYC, with many of the cables coming into the same landing place. That's true, but they're far enough apart that a single accident is unlikely to knock out the cables at more than one landing. The two in NJ cross Long Beach Island, then shallow Barnegat Bay, to the landing sites. Once crosses in Harvey Cedars and lands in Manahawkin, the other crosses in Beach Haven and lands in Tuckerton. My family has a beach house in Harvey Cedars a block from the cable crossing and it's clear they picked the sites because there is nothing there likely to mess them up. Both are summer communities with no industry, the commercial boat harbors, which are not very big, are all safely away from the crossings. The main way you know where they are is a pair of largish signs at each end of the street saying DON'T ANCHOR HERE and signs on the phone poles saying, roughly, don't dig unless there is an ATT employee standing next to you. I haven't been to the landing site in Rhode Island, but I gather it is similarly undeveloped. Running a major cable in through a busy harbor is just a bad idea. so I'm not surprised that they don't do it here. R's, John This e-mail and any attachments thereto is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may be proprietary and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, without the prior written permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately telephone or e-mail the sender and permanently delete the original copy and any copy of this e-mail, and any printout thereof. All documents, contracts or agreements referred or attached to this e-mail are SUBJECT TO CONTRACT. The contents of an attachment to this e-mail may contain software viruses that could damage your own computer system. While Hibernia Atlantic has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, we cannot accept liability for any damage that you sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment
RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
Hi Sean, I don't really understand your argument. I have no clue what this 'assurance' means in the context of managing telecommunications networks. No one is claiming that risk can be eliminated - but can be greatly reduced by proper physical diversity. And for the Federal Reserve, I don't necessarily believe they are experts in building telecommunication networks. They may be, but you have do more than just assert it. For all I know, the groups you cited are simply not that good at managing network risk. Maybe there is a compelling argument, but you have elaborate it. - R. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Sean Donelan Sent: Sun 1/21/2007 11:39 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted On Sun, 21 Jan 2007, Rod Beck wrote: Well, gentlemen, you have to ask for the fiber maps and have them placed in the contract as an exhibit. Most of the large commercial banks are doing it. It's doable, but it does require effort. Uhm, did you bother to read the NDAI report? The Federal Reserve learned several lessons. Fiber maps are not sufficient. If you are relying just on fiber maps, you are going to learn the same lesson again and again. The FAA, Federal Reserve, SFTI and SMART are probably at the top as far as trying to engineer their networks and maintain diversity assurances. But even the Federal Reserve found the cost more than it could afford. What commercial banks are doing is impressive, but only in a commercially reasonable way. Some residual risk and outages are always going to exist. No matter what the salesman tells you, Murphy still lives. This e-mail and any attachments thereto is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may be proprietary and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, without the prior written permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately telephone or e-mail the sender and permanently delete the original copy and any copy of this e-mail, and any printout thereof. All documents, contracts or agreements referred or attached to this e-mail are SUBJECT TO CONTRACT. The contents of an attachment to this e-mail may contain software viruses that could damage your own computer system. While Hibernia Atlantic has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, we cannot accept liability for any damage that you sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment
Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
What's really interesing is the fragility of the existing telecom infrastructure. These six cables were apparently very close to each other in the water. In other words, despite all the preaching about physical diversity, it was ignored in practice. Indeed, undersea cables very often use the same conduits for terrestrial backhaul since it is the most cost effective solution. However, that means that diversifying across undersea cables does not buy the sort of physical diversity that is anticipated. Roderick S. Beck EMEA and North American Sales Hibernia Atlantic [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com This e-mail and any attachments thereto is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may be proprietary and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, without the prior written permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately telephone or e-mail the sender and permanently delete the original copy and any copy of this e-mail, and any printout thereof. All documents, contracts or agreements referred or attached to this e-mail are SUBJECT TO CONTRACT. The contents of an attachment to this e-mail may contain software viruses that could damage your own computer system. While Hibernia Atlantic has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, we cannot accept liability for any damage that you sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment
RE: Undersea fiber cut after Taiwan earthquake - PCCW / Singtel / KT e tc connectivity disrupted
Hi Brian, Unfortunately it is news to the decision makers, the buyers of network capacity at many of the major IP backbones. Indeed, the Atlantic route has problems quite similar to the Pacific. :Roderick S. Beck :EMEA and North American Sales :Hibernia Atlantic This e-mail and any attachments thereto is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may be proprietary and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, without the prior written permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately telephone or e-mail the sender and permanently delete the original copy and any copy of this e-mail, and any printout thereof. All documents, contracts or agreements referred or attached to this e-mail are SUBJECT TO CONTRACT. The contents of an attachment to this e-mail may contain software viruses that could damage your own computer system. While Hibernia Atlantic has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, we cannot accept liability for any damage that you sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment
