Re: Acceptable DSL Speeds (ms based)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well... the *original* question was What's an acceptable speed for DSL?, and the only *really* correct answer is The one that maximizes your profit margin, balancing how much you need to build out to improve things against whatever perceived sluggishness ends up making your customers go elsewhere. As Just host a google box and push-install http://webaccelerator.google.com/ Probably makes 95% of people happy and one or two content delivery companies wonder where they should go next. Pete
Re: Acceptable DSL Speeds (ms based)
On Wed, 4 May 2005, Luke Parrish wrote: Does anyone have a good resource for acceptable speeds for home DSL customers? I would like to see acceptable speeds from the customer CPE to the first layer 3 hop, the hop to the upstream and the hop that leaves the upstream network. If your provider has their L3 equipment in the pop you're physically connected to, you should have no problem getting less than 10ms RTT to your first hop with small packets. Add to this any interleave configured in the dslam (shouldnt be needed for regular ADSL, at least max 4 ms), and then add any ATM path latency from the dslam to the BRAS (or whatever first L3 equipment is on the way) if it's built that way. For us, FAST-mode was ok for ADSL, but for ADSL2+ we needed to use 8-16ms interleave for high-speed customers (generally the ones which got more than 15-18megabit/s), otherwise they would get a lot of errored seconds. -- Mikael Abrahamssonemail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Acceptable DSL Speeds (ms based)
Does anyone have a good resource for acceptable speeds for home DSL customers? I would like to see acceptable speeds from the customer CPE to the first layer 3 hop, the hop to the upstream and the hop that leaves the upstream network. Thanks luke Luke Parrish Centurytel Internet Operations 318-330-6661
Re: Acceptable DSL Speeds (ms based)
Luke Parrish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone have a good resource for acceptable speeds for home DSL customers? Surely this is completely subjective? Wearing my end-user hat, I see, and expect, TCP traffic flowing at about 55kB/s on a BT Home 500 circuit, and proportionally higher throughputs on the 1000 and 2000 offerings. If it routinely fell below about 75% of the theoretical maximum even to close sites, I'd switch providers. -- Youth is a wonderful thing; what a crime to waste it on children. - George Bernard Shaw
Re: Acceptable DSL Speeds (ms based)
My email was confusing since I said the word speed, I would like to ms roundtrip for the following: 1. CPE to first layer 3 hop 2. CPE to first layer 3 upstream hop 3. CPE to layer 3 exit point of upstream Example: Trace route to www.yahoo.com 1. 10.10.10.1 (CPE) 1ms 2. 10.10.10.254 (DSLAM)(cte) 21ms(first layer 3 hop) 3. 11.1.1.1 (Router)(cte) 24ms 4. 5.5.1.3 (upstream interface)(level3) 68ms(first layer 3 upstream hop) 5. 5.4.3.2 (exit point of upstream)(handoff from level3 to att) 94ms (layer 3 exit point of upstream) Those ms values are what I am curious about. What are other providers seeing and what are, in your opinion, acceptable ms times for a home 1.5M dsl user... Luke At 10:40 AM 5/4/2005, Luke Parrish wrote: Does anyone have a good resource for acceptable speeds for home DSL customers? I would like to see acceptable speeds from the customer CPE to the first layer 3 hop, the hop to the upstream and the hop that leaves the upstream network. Thanks luke Luke Parrish Centurytel Internet Operations 318-330-6661 Luke Parrish Centurytel Internet Operations 318-330-6661
Re: Acceptable DSL Speeds (ms based)
I have found that acceptable speeds for residential users will vary widely from one area of the country to another. To a large degree it is a perception issue rather than an empirical one (ie www.cnn.com loads too slowly). The best metric for the happiness of a DSL customer base seems to be simply how many complaints you get and how many switch to cable modem. Granted, there are always a silent majority who are unhappy and will never let you know until they cancel, but the number of complaints you do get can usually be used to extrapolate the rest. That being said, I think it would be a useful thing for a provider to have a local way to measure speed from the customer to some relatively close point in the network, and then you as a company can evaluate if your upstreams suckiness more accurately than a customer could. I think it would be reasonable to expect that a customer should get near line rate across your network and to the first hop of your upstream. After that, it depends on the suckiness factor. Luke Parrish wrote: Does anyone have a good resource for acceptable speeds for home DSL customers? I would like to see acceptable speeds from the customer CPE to the first layer 3 hop, the hop to the upstream and the hop that leaves the upstream network. Thanks luke Luke Parrish Centurytel Internet Operations 318-330-6661
Re: Acceptable DSL Speeds (ms based)
Traceroute is not an effective measurement of performance. Due to the way routing devices process the packets it receives, it is possible for the latency that appears in a traceroute is far higher than the latency of traffic traversing that device. Luke Parrish wrote: My email was confusing since I said the word speed, I would like to ms roundtrip for the following: *1. CPE to first layer 3 hop 2. CPE to first layer 3 upstream hop 3. CPE to layer 3 exit point of upstream *Example: Trace route to www.yahoo.com http://www.yahoo.com/1. 10.10.10.1 (CPE) 1ms 2. 10.10.10.254 (DSLAM)(cte) 21ms*(first layer 3 hop) *3. 11.1.1.1 (Router)(cte) 24ms 4. 5.5.1.3 (upstream interface)(level3) 68ms*(first layer 3 upstream hop) *5. 5.4.3.2 (exit point of upstream)(handoff from level3 to att) 94ms *(layer 3 exit point of upstream) *Those ms values are what I am curious about. What are other providers seeing and what are, in your opinion, acceptable ms times for a home 1.5M dsl user... Luke At 10:40 AM 5/4/2005, Luke Parrish wrote: Does anyone have a good resource for acceptable speeds for home DSL customers? I would like to see acceptable speeds from the customer CPE to the first layer 3 hop, the hop to the upstream and the hop that leaves the upstream network. Thanks luke Luke Parrish Centurytel Internet Operations 318-330-6661 Luke Parrish Centurytel Internet Operations 318-330-6661
Re: Acceptable DSL Speeds (ms based)
Luke Parrish wrote: My email was confusing since I said the word speed, I would like to ms roundtrip for the following: *1. CPE to first layer 3 hop 2. CPE to first layer 3 upstream hop 3. CPE to layer 3 exit point of upstream *Example: Trace route to www.yahoo.com http://www.yahoo.com/1. 10.10.10.1 (CPE) 1ms 2. 10.10.10.254 (DSLAM)(cte) 21ms*(first layer 3 hop) *3. 11.1.1.1 (Router)(cte) 24ms 4. 5.5.1.3 (upstream interface)(level3) 68ms*(first layer 3 upstream hop) *5. 5.4.3.2 (exit point of upstream)(handoff from level3 to att) 94ms *(layer 3 exit point of upstream) *Those ms values are what I am curious about. What are other providers seeing and what are, in your opinion, acceptable ms times for a home 1.5M dsl user... Luke The speeds will vary based on the packages built out. When using interleaved mode (for ADSL anyways), you will see somewhere along the lines of 20-30ms from the CPE to the DSLAM. When not using interleaved, I have seen 5-10ms between the CPE and DSLAM. Ofcourse, cable distances play into this as well I'm sure. And different technologies (SHDSL) will have different latency figures. -- Andy
Re: Acceptable DSL Speeds (ms based)
Yes, but I have to hold my upstream accountable for the level of service they provide to me and eventually to my end customer. We have ways to measure download speed and ms response time from my network down to the customer and them from my network out to the internet via our upstream. However I am looking for benchmarks to compare these times against... At 11:16 AM 5/4/2005, Andrew Lee wrote: I have found that acceptable speeds for residential users will vary widely from one area of the country to another. To a large degree it is a perception issue rather than an empirical one (ie www.cnn.com loads too slowly). The best metric for the happiness of a DSL customer base seems to be simply how many complaints you get and how many switch to cable modem. Granted, there are always a silent majority who are unhappy and will never let you know until they cancel, but the number of complaints you do get can usually be used to extrapolate the rest. That being said, I think it would be a useful thing for a provider to have a local way to measure speed from the customer to some relatively close point in the network, and then you as a company can evaluate if your upstreams suckiness more accurately than a customer could. I think it would be reasonable to expect that a customer should get near line rate across your network and to the first hop of your upstream. After that, it depends on the suckiness factor. Luke Parrish wrote: Does anyone have a good resource for acceptable speeds for home DSL customers? I would like to see acceptable speeds from the customer CPE to the first layer 3 hop, the hop to the upstream and the hop that leaves the upstream network. Thanks luke Luke Parrish Centurytel Internet Operations 318-330-6661 Luke Parrish Centurytel Internet Operations 318-330-6661
Re: Acceptable DSL Speeds (ms based)
Andrew, traceroute is an effective tool is measuring roundtrip in ms format. I am not looking for download speeds or standards, I have already established those. Yes I agree, traceroute is not an effective tool for measuring download speeds. thanks, luke At 11:18 AM 5/4/2005, Andrew Lee wrote: Traceroute is not an effective measurement of performance. Due to the way routing devices process the packets it receives, it is possible for the latency that appears in a traceroute is far higher than the latency of traffic traversing that device. Luke Parrish wrote: My email was confusing since I said the word speed, I would like to ms roundtrip for the following: *1. CPE to first layer 3 hop 2. CPE to first layer 3 upstream hop 3. CPE to layer 3 exit point of upstream *Example: Trace route to www.yahoo.com http://www.yahoo.com/1. 10.10.10.1 (CPE) 1ms 2. 10.10.10.254 (DSLAM)(cte) 21ms*(first layer 3 hop) *3. 11.1.1.1 (Router)(cte) 24ms 4. 5.5.1.3 (upstream interface)(level3) 68ms*(first layer 3 upstream hop) *5. 5.4.3.2 (exit point of upstream)(handoff from level3 to att) 94ms *(layer 3 exit point of upstream) *Those ms values are what I am curious about. What are other providers seeing and what are, in your opinion, acceptable ms times for a home 1.5M dsl user... Luke At 10:40 AM 5/4/2005, Luke Parrish wrote: Does anyone have a good resource for acceptable speeds for home DSL customers? I would like to see acceptable speeds from the customer CPE to the first layer 3 hop, the hop to the upstream and the hop that leaves the upstream network. Thanks luke Luke Parrish Centurytel Internet Operations 318-330-6661 Luke Parrish Centurytel Internet Operations 318-330-6661 Luke Parrish Centurytel Internet Operations 318-330-6661
Re: Acceptable DSL Speeds (ms based)
Expect ~20% less than rated speed for ATM overhead. Expect 20-40 ms on first hop due to DSLAM interweaving. James H. Edwards Routing and Security Administrator At the Santa Fe Office: Internet at Cyber Mesa [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cybermesa.com/ContactCM (505) 795-7101
Re: Acceptable DSL Speeds (ms based)
* Luke Parrish: Andrew, traceroute is an effective tool is measuring roundtrip in ms format. No, it's not, because routers generate ICMP TTL Exceeded packets with totally different machinery, separated from the forwarding path. Many factors influence the ms numbers traceroute reports (MPLS, main CPU load, priority on internal busses), and only some of them correlate with forwarding latency.
Re: Acceptable DSL Speeds (ms based)
On Wed, 4 May 2005, Luke Parrish wrote: Andrew, traceroute is an effective tool is measuring roundtrip in ms format. packets sent to a router are typically processed differently and with different priority then packets forwarded through it. This makes traceroute fairly unreliable. I measure acceptable performance on the basis of the needs of my applications. In general I need = 100ms rtt and little or no re-ordering to the counterstrike hl2 servers I play on. providers that can't deliver that reliably don't get my business. I am not looking for download speeds or standards, I have already established those. Yes I agree, traceroute is not an effective tool for measuring download speeds. thanks, luke At 11:18 AM 5/4/2005, Andrew Lee wrote: Traceroute is not an effective measurement of performance. Due to the way routing devices process the packets it receives, it is possible for the latency that appears in a traceroute is far higher than the latency of traffic traversing that device. Luke Parrish wrote: My email was confusing since I said the word speed, I would like to ms roundtrip for the following: *1. CPE to first layer 3 hop 2. CPE to first layer 3 upstream hop 3. CPE to layer 3 exit point of upstream *Example: Trace route to www.yahoo.com http://www.yahoo.com/1. 10.10.10.1 (CPE) 1ms 2. 10.10.10.254 (DSLAM)(cte) 21ms*(first layer 3 hop) *3. 11.1.1.1 (Router)(cte) 24ms 4. 5.5.1.3 (upstream interface)(level3) 68ms*(first layer 3 upstream hop) *5. 5.4.3.2 (exit point of upstream)(handoff from level3 to att) 94ms *(layer 3 exit point of upstream) *Those ms values are what I am curious about. What are other providers seeing and what are, in your opinion, acceptable ms times for a home 1.5M dsl user... Luke At 10:40 AM 5/4/2005, Luke Parrish wrote: Does anyone have a good resource for acceptable speeds for home DSL customers? I would like to see acceptable speeds from the customer CPE to the first layer 3 hop, the hop to the upstream and the hop that leaves the upstream network. Thanks luke Luke Parrish Centurytel Internet Operations 318-330-6661 Luke Parrish Centurytel Internet Operations 318-330-6661 Luke Parrish Centurytel Internet Operations 318-330-6661 -- -- Joel Jaeggli Unix Consulting [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG Key Fingerprint: 5C6E 0104 BAF0 40B0 5BD3 C38B F000 35AB B67F 56B2
Re: Acceptable DSL Speeds (ms based)
Joel Jaeggli wrote: On Wed, 4 May 2005, Luke Parrish wrote: Andrew, traceroute is an effective tool is measuring roundtrip in ms format. packets sent to a router are typically processed differently and with different priority then packets forwarded through it. This makes traceroute fairly unreliable. Since it is probably a fair assumption that routers will never procces forwarding packets slower than ICMP replies, the following applies. The router receiving the traceroute response from its upstream would process that in its forwarding path. So if you see a 30ms hit on hop A and a 60 ms hit on hop B you can pretty much determine that hop A is 30ms away but you cant be quite sure about hop B until you see hop C's replies. To make this more interesting, its always possible that hop B or C's path to you is different than your path to hop B or C. Also, traceroute is effective at showing that the path rtt is good. Its just when you are trying to find where the latency is that things can get dicey.
Re: Acceptable DSL Speeds (ms based)
Luke Parrish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone have a good resource for acceptable speeds for home DSL customers? Try: http://www.dslreports.com/archive?all=1 to see how you compare with others in your ISP or area (you can search by zip code). Regards, Hank
Re: Acceptable DSL Speeds (ms based)
On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 09:34:35AM -0700, Bruce Pinsky wrote: Those times seem high to me. I have a 1.5/768 ADSL circuit and I routinely see 13-15ms to my 1st IP hop and 15-18 to the upstream handoff. I'm 14.5Kft from my CO and my IP is backhauled to SFO from SJC. Here are a few examples: When I switched from 1600/384 to 3000/768 dsl, download speed went up to very nearly the promised 3Mbps, but latency to the first hop went from 14 ms to 26 ms. Now I have FTTH, and first-hop latency is 3 ms (acedsl.com, Verizon reseller, good guys). -- Barney Wolff http://www.databus.com/bwresume.pdf I never met a computer I didn't like.
Re: Acceptable DSL Speeds (ms based)
On Thu, May 05, 2005 at 10:59:04AM +0800, Ong Beng Hui wrote: When I switched from 1600/384 to 3000/768 dsl, download speed went up to very nearly the promised 3Mbps, but latency to the first hop went from 14 ms to 26 ms. Is there a reason for that ? that, latency goes up when bandwidth goes up for your case ? I assume it had to do with different settings for interleaving on the DSLAM, as some prior poster mentioned. -- Barney Wolff http://www.databus.com/bwresume.pdf I never met a computer I didn't like.
Re: Acceptable DSL Speeds (ms based)
- Original Message - From: Barney Wolff [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Thu, May 05, 2005 at 10:59:04AM +0800, Ong Beng Hui wrote: When I switched from 1600/384 to 3000/768 dsl, download speed went up to very nearly the promised 3Mbps, but latency to the first hop went from 14 ms to 26 ms. Is there a reason for that ? that, latency goes up when bandwidth goes up for your case ? I assume it had to do with different settings for interleaving on the DSLAM, as some prior poster mentioned. -- Barney Wolff http://www.databus.com/bwresume.pdf I never met a computer I didn't like. Interleaved adds some error correction, allowing the connection to be more resistant to interference (noisy lines), but at the expense of latency. Fast-path is the other way data is sent, which obviously, is much faster, I've personally seen less ~10ms for a loop around 11000ft. -- Andy
