Re: Internet Exchange Questions
### On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 12:46:57 +0100 (CET), Iljitsch van Beijnum ### [EMAIL PROTECTED] casually decided to expound upon Jon Bennett ### [EMAIL PROTECTED] the following thoughts about Re: Internet ### Exchange Questions: IvB This hasn't happened. However, the reasoning still stands: why buy rack IvB space in a remote place and go through all kinds of trouble to install a IvB router there, if you can easily use some kind of switched/multiplexed IvB service from a telco and directly connect with your intended peering IvB partners over it, regardless of where everyone is located. (Hey, does this IvB sound like private interconnects?) Among other reasons, the additive cost of all the loops starts to make this practice prohibitive. I believe Bill Norton's whitepaper, Interconnection Strategies for ISPs, illustrates some of the issues of interconnection economics quite well and identifies where/when it makes sense to go into exchange points or establish private interconnects. IvB This may still happen as ethernet becomes telco-friendlier. But as long as IvB you're in a location anyway, interconnecting with other networks who are IvB there as well is always cheaper and easier. Yes, you can reach a certain economy of scale by consolidating carriers, content providers, ISPs, etc under one roof. Many exchange point providers are banking on the atmosphere of a public market as a major selling point. -- /*===[ Jake Khuon [EMAIL PROTECTED] ]==+ | Packet Plumber, Network Engineers /| / [~ [~ |) | | --- | | for Effective Bandwidth Utilisation / |/ [_ [_ |) |_| N E T W O R K S | +=*/
Re: Internet Exchange Questions
3) As time passes, more providers either understand
the benefits of
peering at an exchange point versus paying
${UPSTREAM} to provide transit
for all of their traffic, or their traffic levels
grow to the point (see
point 1) where peering at ${EXCHANGE} begins to make
financial sense.
Most providers lack the levels of traffic or the
geographic footprint to
peer with the big guys (UUNET, Sprint, ATT, CW,
Genuity, etc), who
typically build private interconnections with each
other in multiple
geographically diverse areas. Private interconnects
are normally not cost
effective for service providers who don't satisfy
those criteria, so for
them, peering at exchange points is more
financially/technically
attractive.
Is there a need for additional IXs or are there too
many today and some should be consolidated or shut
down altogether? If there is a need for new IXs, where
do you put them? Who decides where to build a new IX
and how do you get service providers to show up there
once it is built?
Thanks.
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Re: Internet Exchange Questions
On Tue, 19 Mar 2002, Jon Bennett wrote: Is there a need for additional IXs or are there too many today and some should be consolidated or shut down altogether? If there is a need for new IXs, where do you put them? Who decides where to build a new IX and how do you get service providers to show up there once it is built? the if you build it they will come.. strategy has surely passed. we will likely see some continued consolidation as the telcos restructure (ie paix to be sold yet again.) capacity and usage within the ramaining ixps will dictate the need for future growth. /rf
Re: Internet Exchange Questions
At 12:24 pm -0500 19/3/02, Streiner, Justin wrote: http://www.ep.net/ lists many exchange points around the world, large and small. And for European IXPs there is now an association: http://www.euro-ix.net/ Which has details of the member exchanges. f which is linked from the www.ep.net site... :) --bill
Re: Internet Exchange Questions
Is there a need for additional IXs or are there too many today and some should be consolidated or shut down altogether? If there is a need for new IXs, where do you put them? Who decides where to build a new IX and how do you get service providers to show up there once it is built? I know of 323 IXes today. http://www.pch.net/documents/data/exchange-points/ep-in-addrs.xls In my experience, there are a few states that local exchange markets go through: First, no exchange, or something which claims to be one but isn't. Then, inspiration strikes someone, and: Second, there's an exchange, and life is good. Then, idiocy strikes someone else, they determine that the existence of an exchange validates the market for exchange services in that region, and: Third, multiple exchanges spring up in the same area, tearing apart the switch fabric and ruining the economic reason for peering in the first place. Then, people grow to understand the market, and: Fourth, the different exchange-like services differentiate sufficiently that people can use peering-oriented exchanges principally for peering, and transit-oriented exchanges principally for transit. -Bill
Re: Internet Exchange Questions
On 19 Mar 2002, Paul Vixie wrote: As for your question re: PAIX, it is a well-engineered exchange point that has been around for a long time, with an extensive member list. That, plus whatever revenue stream PAIX has would probably make an attractive acquisition for several companies. Thank you for those kind words. And if you've ever got a problem with PAIX, you know who to yell at. Until MFN sells them in coming months in their attempts to pay off billions of dollars of debt... This industry is so far in the shitter...so many of the big names, including players from the early days, are in chapter 11 or about to be. It's a sad day when Qwest looks like a good company. Andy Andy Dills 301-682-9972 Xecunet, LLCwww.xecu.net Dialup * Webhosting * E-Commerce * High-Speed Access
Re: Internet Exchange Questions
On Tue, 19 Mar 2002, Andy Dills wrote: This industry is so far in the shitter...so many of the big names, including players from the early days, are in chapter 11 or about to be. I'm honestly surprised that I haven't had someone try to offer me a 'genuine steal' on 20-year IRUs in awhile ;-) jms
Re: Internet Exchange Questions
you know who to yell at. Until MFN sells them in coming months in their attempts to pay off billions of dollars of debt... No change is expected in who you yell at if PAIX isn't doing a good job. (That is, me.) -- Paul Vixie [EMAIL PROTECTED] President, PAIX.Net Inc. (NASD:MFNX)
Re: Internet Exchange Questions
Yo, Bill (sleepy) I know of 323 IXes today. http://www.pch.net/documents/data/exchange-points/ep-in-addrs.xls Well, this is one place where we diverge... :) I'd state that there are 323 prefixes in use at exchanges but that there are somewhat fewer switch fabrics in place, e.g. a single switch fabric can does host more than one prefix. -Bill -- bill (grumpy)
Re: Internet Exchange Questions
I know of 323 IXes today. http://www.pch.net/documents/data/exchange-points/ep-in-addrs.xls Well, this is one place where we diverge... :) I'd state that there are 323 prefixes in use at exchanges but that there are somewhat fewer switch fabrics in place, e.g. a single switch fabric can does host more than one prefix. Correct. And there are sometimes multiple switch fabrics in one facility, usually in the case that there are separate fabrics/subnets for IPv4 unicast, multicast, and IPv6. -Bill
Re: Internet Exchange Questions
Streiner, Justin wrote: If there is a need for new IXs, where do you put them? Who decides where to build a new IX and how do you get service providers to show up there once it is built? These days, that can be a chicken-and-egg question. There really isn't a formalized process for deciding where an IX should be placed. In the case of some of the regional points, they came about because someone took the initiative to build them. I'd imagine if you're located in a city where: 1) The cost of a circuit to the nearest exchange point is too high 2) There are a decent number of local organizations who may be interested in or capable of peering there I'd like to add another: 3) there is a common good that all the local ISPs need, that is best shared. I'm thinking of wireless. Since the band is shared, it is best run by a common organization on behalf of the local ISPs. Since they need to connect to the wireless anyway, they might as well peer with each other, reducing their upstream costs by the amount of local traffic. It may also help if you're not a service provider yourself. Sometimes local providers get standoffish about peering at an IX run by a competitor. Strange, but sometimes so is human/social psychology ;-) Yes, I ran into that in both the local places I tried to interest others in setting up peering exchanges. There were/are a lot of egos involved, who thought THEY would put their rivals out of business. Funny thing, many of them are out of business, and we're still standing. The Internet really does run better in a spirit of cooperation! I was strongly interested in the Israeli posting about co-operative non-profits, since that was what I was advocating here as a solution to the ego problem. But, Yanks were hard to convince on setting up co-ops, too. That old social spirit was lacking during the recent go-go years. Maybe it's time to try again? And maybe if enough of us got together, we could buy PAIX as our flagship? On the other hand, as a mercenary thought, we might get a better price on PAIX during MFN bankruptcy :-) -- William Allen Simpson Key fingerprint = 17 40 5E 67 15 6F 31 26 DD 0D B9 9B 6A 15 2C 32
RE: Internet Exchange Questions
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: which is linked from the www.ep.net site... :) But: http://dmoz.org/Computers/Internet/Protocols/IP/IPng/IPv6_Internet_Excha nges/ Isn't listed there though :( And it lists afaik all, native IPv6 Exchange Points... more IPv6 stuff in the directory above it. Greets, Jeroen Well, this site: http://www.v6nap.net/ was supposed to be the the canonical v6 exchange list... :) (and its on the ep site...) Will examine merge... And how stupid of me of not listing that one as I did know it existed. Added... unfortunatly can't set a special link or something Greets, Jeroen
Re: Internet Exchange Questions
On Tue, Mar 19, 2002 at 08:53:23AM -0800, Jon Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there a need for additional IXs or are there too many today and some should be consolidated or shut down altogether? If there is a need for new IXs, where do you put them? Who decides where to build a new IX and how do you get service providers to show up there once it is built? Thanks. There are many types of IXes built around many different needs, just as there are with ISPs. Large IXes: === Tend to have a number of Tier1/2/3 ISPs participating in a wide range of peering capacity (from 10meg to GigE/OC48), via either switch fabric (like LINX), or via mix of switch-aggregated and private peering. Where are these located? Generally in areas of high traffic pass-through due to continental or inter-continental fiber routing or teledensity: Silicon Valley, Washington DC, Chicago, NYC Metro, London, Amsterdam, Tokyo Drivers for these large IXes tend to follow the need of Tier1/2 networks to have multiple locations to peer so traffic engineering can be regionalized with robust alternate paths. For U.S. continental footprint, I would say the following list is important for good regional granularity: Silicon Valley, Wash D.C. Metro, NYC Metro, Dallas, Chicago, LA, and secondary: Atlanta, Boston, Seattle, Denver. For Europe, I believe you are seeing similar emergence of additional large IXes in other key cities, reducing the dependence on London and Amsterdam. Historical IXes: Peering locations that had high historical value, but are no longer as significant as requirements and technology changed. Local IXes: Many of these are so local-to-local entities can peer without going across more expensive regional or out-of-country links. Common participants may be local dial providers, local small web hosters, universities, local business and govt institutions. For many of these players, a T1 or E1 or 10-meg port may be considered a large investment, especially if hauled half way across a country with low teledensity. These exchanges may be critical to the Internet economics of these locations. Transit IXes: = These are often local IXes, where a larger ISP has also setup shop to offer transit for non-local traffic. Cheers, -Lane Lane Patterson Research Engineer Equinix, Inc. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/
Internet Exchange Questions
I am a business school student studying the state of the telecom sector and specifically the Internet infrastructure. I am currently trying to understand the role theIX such as PAIX, Equinix, Telehouse, etc.. will play in the future where the number of service providers is drastically reduced relative to the environment they were created in. I think PAIX is a good example of this. MFN announced today that they were selling off PAIX. I would be interested in hearing thoughts on why anyone would want to buyPAIX and if there is a way to continue to make money selling cross connectsin the future. Jon BennettDo You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage
