Re: NXDOMAIN data needed for survey

2008-03-30 Thread Valdis . Kletnieks
On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:25:22 PDT, Scott Weeks said:

 Why would you assume this?  That wouldn't be my first assumption after
 reading the thread.  I would assume folks would Do The Right Thing.

There is no Right Thing that is *so* obviously right that some significant
fraction of the community will refuse to do it anyhow.  Witness the flame-fests
we have regarding ingress/egress filtering, BGP prefix filtering/validation,
harboring spammers and other similar low-lifes, and so on... 


pgpfCahbZeVyH.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: NXDOMAIN data needed for survey

2008-03-28 Thread Ray Demain
Bill,

Isn't it funny though that OpenDNS is funded by the same group who funded
Paxfire?

www.minorventures.com

OpenDNS can be an angel on one shoulder while Paxfire is on the other,
right?

Ray



On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 9:09 PM, bill fumerola [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 [ disclaimer: i work for opendns. ]

 On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 05:53:15PM -0400, Martin Hannigan wrote:
I think it's best that we let David Ulevitch and the crew @ OpenDNS
 make
the money that is to be made off this. He's doing good while doing
 well.
 
  Why shouldn't anyone be able to make the money? The problem with
  that post wasn't that he was advocating law breaking, it was that it's
  a marketing missive and inconsistent with community norms, IMHO. That
  doesn't mean that it's illegal, and it certainly doesn't mean it's ok
  for one good guy to be allowed to profit and one unknown not to.
  Setting classes of who can profit from NXDOMAIN data creates
  unfairness in the system and it should be all or none.

 now that our name has been brought into this, i think it's only fair to
 say: the NXDOMAIN data we know about is when a user's resolver asks our
 recursive servers for a record and NXDOMAIN is the end result of what
 our resolvers discover.

 at that point, we optionally point you at a lander page w/ search results
 and ads and all that jazz based on the words in the record you
 [mis-]typed.
 note the optionally. if you want, we'll just return NXDOMAIN. you can
 configure this. you can configure it per-ip, per-prefix, etc.

 now, on to what we do or could do with that data:

 we do not sell and have never sold NXDOMAIN data. nor do we register
 domains based on NXDOMAIN information. the non-OpenDNS company who sees
 the original request that produced the NXDOMAIN that failed (which may
 or may not even be a valid hostname) is our advertising partner.

 they get that data after we've transformed the original request into
 their API to send to them as keywords so they may return appropriate and
 relevant ads.

 so, to recap:
 nope, we don't sell NXDOMAIN data. we don't sell any other data either.
 yes, some revenue comes from typos/mistakes. you knew that already.
 yes, you can even change that behavior and just get NXDOMAIN.
  that means your typos gain us nothing. you get our service for free.
 yes, you opt-in to our service in the first place.
 yes, we have a privacy policy that says this better than i can.

  What you really want to look at is privacy policy. Not all of the good
  guys are actually good guys in that respect.

 http://www.opendns.com/privacy/

 it looks pretty good to me. i read it before i agreed to employment.

 -- billf at opendns.com // opendns network engineering

 p.s. since i rarely if ever post, i have to make the shameless, shameless
 plug: [EMAIL PROTECTED]. we're in peeringdb too.






Re: NXDOMAIN data needed for survey

2008-03-28 Thread David Ulevitch


Ray Demain wrote:

Isn't it funny though that OpenDNS is funded by the same group who 
funded Paxfire?


It might seem weird to you, but it's very common.  Once VC has done the 
due diligence in a space they are more likely to invest in another 
company doing something in a related space, for better or worse.


OpenDNS can be an angel on one shoulder while Paxfire is on the other, 
right?


Your inference is unfounded.

-David Ulevitch

ps: End of this thread for me.  It was dumb to begin with and despite 
the flaming, I'm sure a bunch of netops wrote back to the guy offering 
to sell NXDOMAIN data. Giving it more airtime is a waste of bits.





RE: NXDOMAIN data needed for survey

2008-03-28 Thread Tomas L. Byrnes
What's more funny is that googling Ray Demain only brings up lots of
posts from you looking for NXDOMAIN data.
 
What's your real name? Who do YOU work for? Who funds that company?
 
Before you go accusing others of subterfuge and conspiracy, be up front
about who you are, what you're about, and what you plan on doing with
the data.
 
 




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ray Demain
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 9:13 AM
To: nanog@merit.edu
Subject: Re: NXDOMAIN data needed for survey


Bill,

Isn't it funny though that OpenDNS is funded by the same group
who funded Paxfire?

www.minorventures.com

OpenDNS can be an angel on one shoulder while Paxfire is on the
other, right?

Ray




On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 9:09 PM, bill fumerola [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:



[ disclaimer: i work for opendns. ]


On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 05:53:15PM -0400, Martin
Hannigan wrote:
   I think it's best that we let David Ulevitch and
the crew @ OpenDNS make
   the money that is to be made off this. He's doing
good while doing well.

 Why shouldn't anyone be able to make the money? The
problem with
 that post wasn't that he was advocating law breaking,
it was that it's
 a marketing missive and inconsistent with community
norms, IMHO. That
 doesn't mean that it's illegal, and it certainly
doesn't mean it's ok
 for one good guy to be allowed to profit and one
unknown not to.
 Setting classes of who can profit from NXDOMAIN data
creates
 unfairness in the system and it should be all or none.


now that our name has been brought into this, i think
it's only fair to
say: the NXDOMAIN data we know about is when a user's
resolver asks our
recursive servers for a record and NXDOMAIN is the end
result of what
our resolvers discover.

at that point, we optionally point you at a lander page
w/ search results
and ads and all that jazz based on the words in the
record you [mis-]typed.
note the optionally. if you want, we'll just return
NXDOMAIN. you can
configure this. you can configure it per-ip, per-prefix,
etc.

now, on to what we do or could do with that data:

we do not sell and have never sold NXDOMAIN data. nor do
we register
domains based on NXDOMAIN information. the non-OpenDNS
company who sees
the original request that produced the NXDOMAIN that
failed (which may
or may not even be a valid hostname) is our advertising
partner.

they get that data after we've transformed the original
request into
their API to send to them as keywords so they may return
appropriate and
relevant ads.

so, to recap:
nope, we don't sell NXDOMAIN data. we don't sell any
other data either.
yes, some revenue comes from typos/mistakes. you knew
that already.
yes, you can even change that behavior and just get
NXDOMAIN.
 that means your typos gain us nothing. you get our
service for free.
yes, you opt-in to our service in the first place.
yes, we have a privacy policy that says this better than
i can.


 What you really want to look at is privacy policy. Not
all of the good
 guys are actually good guys in that respect.


http://www.opendns.com/privacy/

it looks pretty good to me. i read it before i agreed to
employment.

-- billf at opendns.com // opendns network engineering

p.s. since i rarely if ever post, i have to make the
shameless, shameless
plug: [EMAIL PROTECTED]. we're in peeringdb too.








Re: NXDOMAIN data needed for survey

2008-03-28 Thread Scott Weeks



--
[...]the flaming, I'm sure a bunch of netops wrote 
back to the guy offering to sell NXDOMAIN data. 
--


Why would you assume this?  That wouldn't be my first assumption after reading 
the thread.  I would assume folks would Do The Right Thing.

scott





Re: NXDOMAIN data needed for survey

2008-03-28 Thread Martin Hannigan

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 10:09 PM, bill fumerola [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 [ disclaimer: i work for opendns. ]


  On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 05:53:15PM -0400, Martin Hannigan wrote:

[ snip ]

  so, to recap:
  nope, we don't sell NXDOMAIN data. we don't sell any other data either.

I don't think that policy includes derivative works. If you are saying
that you don't sell any data at all, feel free to say that.

-M


Re: NXDOMAIN data needed for survey

2008-03-27 Thread bill fumerola

[ disclaimer: i work for opendns. ]

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 05:53:15PM -0400, Martin Hannigan wrote:
   I think it's best that we let David Ulevitch and the crew @ OpenDNS make
   the money that is to be made off this. He's doing good while doing well.
 
 Why shouldn't anyone be able to make the money? The problem with
 that post wasn't that he was advocating law breaking, it was that it's
 a marketing missive and inconsistent with community norms, IMHO. That
 doesn't mean that it's illegal, and it certainly doesn't mean it's ok
 for one good guy to be allowed to profit and one unknown not to.
 Setting classes of who can profit from NXDOMAIN data creates
 unfairness in the system and it should be all or none.

now that our name has been brought into this, i think it's only fair to
say: the NXDOMAIN data we know about is when a user's resolver asks our
recursive servers for a record and NXDOMAIN is the end result of what
our resolvers discover.

at that point, we optionally point you at a lander page w/ search results
and ads and all that jazz based on the words in the record you [mis-]typed.
note the optionally. if you want, we'll just return NXDOMAIN. you can
configure this. you can configure it per-ip, per-prefix, etc.

now, on to what we do or could do with that data:

we do not sell and have never sold NXDOMAIN data. nor do we register
domains based on NXDOMAIN information. the non-OpenDNS company who sees
the original request that produced the NXDOMAIN that failed (which may
or may not even be a valid hostname) is our advertising partner.

they get that data after we've transformed the original request into
their API to send to them as keywords so they may return appropriate and
relevant ads.

so, to recap:
nope, we don't sell NXDOMAIN data. we don't sell any other data either.
yes, some revenue comes from typos/mistakes. you knew that already.
yes, you can even change that behavior and just get NXDOMAIN.
  that means your typos gain us nothing. you get our service for free.
yes, you opt-in to our service in the first place.
yes, we have a privacy policy that says this better than i can.

 What you really want to look at is privacy policy. Not all of the good
 guys are actually good guys in that respect.

http://www.opendns.com/privacy/

it looks pretty good to me. i read it before i agreed to employment.

-- billf at opendns.com // opendns network engineering

p.s. since i rarely if ever post, i have to make the shameless, shameless
 plug: [EMAIL PROTECTED]. we're in peeringdb too.





Re: NXDOMAIN data needed for survey

2008-03-21 Thread Martin Hannigan

On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 3:22 PM, Steve Atkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

[ snip ]

  I wonder who he's paying for his nxdomain data, and whether that
  someone is authorized to sell it. It strikes me that it's just a small
  step for someone with access to ISP internal data to go from selling
  DNS logs to selling usernames too.

This is tip of the iceberg level activity. These people are exploiting
unique identifiers i.e. domains names and IP addresses. We need to
fear them, and respond appropriately. They are disruptive to the
Internet, to the users and commerce.


-M


Re: NXDOMAIN data needed for survey

2008-03-21 Thread Ross Vandegrift

On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 10:45:30AM -0700, Tomas L. Byrnes wrote:
 BTW: If someone legitimate needs NXDOMAIN data, I do have a bunch. 

If anyone else is interesting in a concerted effort to provide
falsified data, I'm interested in helping and hosting.


-- 
Ross Vandegrift
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who
make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians
have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine
man in the bonds of Hell.
--St. Augustine, De Genesi ad Litteram, Book II, xviii, 37


Re: NXDOMAIN data needed for survey

2008-03-21 Thread Martin Hannigan


  I think it's best that we let David Ulevitch and the crew @ OpenDNS make
  the money that is to be made off this. He's doing good while doing well.

Why shouldn't anyone be able to make the money? The problem with
that post wasn't that he was advocating law breaking, it was that it's
a marketing missive and inconsistent with community norms, IMHO. That
doesn't mean that it's illegal, and it certainly doesn't mean it's ok
for one good guy to be allowed to profit and one unknown not to.
Setting classes of who can profit from NXDOMAIN data creates
unfairness in the system and it should be all or none.

What you really want to look at is privacy policy. Not all of the good
guys are actually good guys in that respect.


  BTW: If someone legitimate needs NXDOMAIN data, I do have a bunch.


How much are you charging?

-M


NXDOMAIN data needed for survey

2008-03-20 Thread Ray Demain
We are looking to purchase NXDOMAIN data for an internet survey.

We prefer to receive the data on an hourly basis so it is as fresh as
possible. Our system receives the data from you via ftp that you provide.
Its hard to value the data until we have taken a look at it. As one example,
we pay a current partner $4000 per month for 100,000 records per day. If you
would like to setup a test so we can determine the value of your data please
contact me at [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Please note that if you can also bring in other partners we will pay a 10%
recurring finders fee.

Ray


Re: NXDOMAIN data needed for survey

2008-03-20 Thread Martin Hannigan

On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 12:22 PM, Ray Demain wrote:
 We are looking to purchase NXDOMAIN data for an internet survey.

 We prefer to receive the data on an hourly basis so it is as fresh as
 possible. Our system receives the data from you via ftp that you provide.
 Its hard to value the data until we have taken a look at it. As one example,
 we pay a current partner $4000 per month for 100,000 records per day. If you
 would like to setup a test so we can determine the value of your data please
 contact me at




What company would this be for?

-M


Re: NXDOMAIN data needed for survey

2008-03-20 Thread Paul Vixie

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ray Demain) writes:

 We are looking to purchase NXDOMAIN data for an internet survey.

your survey sounds more like an ongoing typosquatting business venture.

 We prefer to receive the data on an hourly basis so it is as fresh as
 possible.  Our system receives the data from you via ftp that you
 provide.  Its hard to value the data until we have taken a look at it.
 As one example, we pay a current partner $4000 per month for 100,000
 records per day.  If you would like to setup a test so we can determine
 the value of your data please contact me at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Please note that if you can also bring in other partners we will pay a
 10% recurring finders fee.

thanks for clarifying my purpose in never collecting NXDOMAIN data in ISC
SIE (see http://sie.isc.org/).  several folks told me i was out to lunch,
but now i've got http://www.merit.edu/mail.archives/nanog/msg06810.html
to point at.
-- 
Paul Vixie


RE: NXDOMAIN data needed for survey

2008-03-20 Thread michael.dillon

  We are looking to purchase NXDOMAIN data for an internet survey.
 
 your survey sounds more like an ongoing typosquatting 
 business venture.

Doing a Google search with the keywords
pay nxdomain data
turns up some interesting information.

--Michael Dillon


Re: NXDOMAIN data needed for survey

2008-03-20 Thread Steve Atkins



On Mar 20, 2008, at 9:56 AM, Martin Hannigan wrote:


On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 12:22 PM, Ray Demain wrote:

We are looking to purchase NXDOMAIN data for an internet survey.

We prefer to receive the data on an hourly basis so it is as fresh as
possible. Our system receives the data from you via ftp that you  
provide.
Its hard to value the data until we have taken a look at it. As one  
example,
we pay a current partner $4000 per month for 100,000 records per  
day. If you
would like to setup a test so we can determine the value of your  
data please

contact me at





What company would this be for?


A domain squatting company, presumably. The same pseudonym has been
trolling web hosting forums to buy the same data today.

He's Marlon Phillips, [EMAIL PROTECTED], I'm pretty sure, though which
particular squatter company he represents, I've no idea.

Cheers,
  Steve



RE: NXDOMAIN data needed for survey

2008-03-20 Thread Tomas L. Byrnes

 
What's even more interesting is that googling Ray Demain shows nothing,
except this message.

I'd say that M. Demain does not exist, and his money will be as real as
his on-line presence.

I always love commissions promised from entities whose revenues you
can't audit.

Never mind that the purpose of this is, most likely, to register domains
as link-farms.

I think it's best that we let David Ulevitch and the crew @ OpenDNS make
the money that is to be made off this. He's doing good while doing well.

BTW: If someone legitimate needs NXDOMAIN data, I do have a bunch. 


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
 Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 10:25 AM
 To: nanog@merit.edu
 Subject: RE: NXDOMAIN data needed for survey
 
 
   We are looking to purchase NXDOMAIN data for an internet survey.
  
  your survey sounds more like an ongoing typosquatting business 
  venture.
 
 Doing a Google search with the keywords
 pay nxdomain data
 turns up some interesting information.
 
 --Michael Dillon
 


noop Re: NXDOMAIN data needed for survey

2008-03-20 Thread jamie
I'm about as offended from this post as I was when Canter  Siegel happened.

The inevitable forced realization that the our little world is indeed filled
with evil, evil people that want to abuse it (or in this case, those
associated with its operation) for their own ventures.

I suppose we've all known that people like this exist, but after this post,
i feel ... dirty.

meh.

-j


On 20 Mar 2008 17:06:49 +, Paul Vixie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ray Demain) writes:

  We are looking to purchase NXDOMAIN data for an internet survey.

 your survey sounds more like an ongoing typosquatting business venture.

  We prefer to receive the data on an hourly basis so it is as fresh as
  possible.  Our system receives the data from you via ftp that you
  provide.  Its hard to value the data until we have taken a look at it.
  As one example, we pay a current partner $4000 per month for 100,000
  records per day.  If you would like to setup a test so we can determine
  the value of your data please contact me at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  Please note that if you can also bring in other partners we will pay a
  10% recurring finders fee.

 thanks for clarifying my purpose in never collecting NXDOMAIN data in ISC
 SIE (see http://sie.isc.org/).  several folks told me i was out to
 lunch,
 but now i've got http://www.merit.edu/mail.archives/nanog/msg06810.html
 to point at.
 --
 Paul Vixie




-- 
.. ( i void warranties. )


Re: NXDOMAIN data needed for survey

2008-03-20 Thread Steve Atkins



On Mar 20, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Martin Hannigan wrote:


On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Steve Atkins [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
wrote:




On Mar 20, 2008, at 9:56 AM, Martin Hannigan wrote:


On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 12:22 PM, Ray Demain wrote:

We are looking to purchase NXDOMAIN data for an internet survey.

We prefer to receive the data on an hourly basis so it is as  
fresh as

possible. Our system receives the data from you via ftp that you
provide.
Its hard to value the data until we have taken a look at it. As one
example,
we pay a current partner $4000 per month for 100,000 records per
day. If you
would like to setup a test so we can determine the value of your
data please
contact me at





What company would this be for?


A domain squatting company, presumably.



Thanks, I know. I wanted to stimulate a thread that was archived for
others historical reference.


Yeah, me too.

He's also apparently Mr Domain Investments LLC, Mr herbalclicks.com,
was typosquatting on a bunch of t-mobile domains until they took them
away from him -
http://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/decisions/html/2007/d2007-0919.html
- and was sued by Microsoft for sending CAN-SPAM violating spam to
hotmail users a couple of years back in the myauctionbiz.biz case -
http://spamkings.oreilly.com/MSFT-vs-Myauctionbizbiz.pdf .

I wonder who he's paying for his nxdomain data, and whether that
someone is authorized to sell it. It strikes me that it's just a small
step for someone with access to ISP internal data to go from selling
DNS logs to selling usernames too.

Cheers,
  Steve



Re: NXDOMAIN data needed for survey

2008-03-20 Thread Martin Hannigan

On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Steve Atkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



  On Mar 20, 2008, at 9:56 AM, Martin Hannigan wrote:
  
   On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 12:22 PM, Ray Demain wrote:
   We are looking to purchase NXDOMAIN data for an internet survey.
  
   We prefer to receive the data on an hourly basis so it is as fresh as
   possible. Our system receives the data from you via ftp that you
   provide.
   Its hard to value the data until we have taken a look at it. As one
   example,
   we pay a current partner $4000 per month for 100,000 records per
   day. If you
   would like to setup a test so we can determine the value of your
   data please
   contact me at
  
  
  
  
   What company would this be for?

  A domain squatting company, presumably.


Thanks, I know. I wanted to stimulate a thread that was archived for
others historical reference.

-M


Re: NXDOMAIN data needed for survey

2008-03-20 Thread Christopher Morrow

On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Steve Atkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  He's Marlon Phillips, [EMAIL PROTECTED], I'm pretty sure, though which
  particular squatter company he represents, I've no idea.


where does mapcom.net go? bizland.net ... registered through verisign
and hosted at ipowerweb? Their website (www.mapcom.net) has a
sedo-parking park-page, perhaps marlon works for sedoparking?

-Chris